Romanticizing the past - Page 2 - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
 94Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#31 of 58 Old 06-30-2014, 01:05 PM - Thread Starter
 
teacozy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Hogwarts
Posts: 1,387
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 250 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by samaxtics View Post
Starting with the quote above. Source Please!
"The overall case-fatality rate for diphtheria is 5%–10%, with
higher death rates (up to 20%) among persons younger than
5 and older than 40 years of age. The case-fatality rate for
diphtheria has changed very little during the last 50 years."

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pin...nloads/dip.pdf

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson 
teacozy is offline  
#32 of 58 Old 06-30-2014, 01:34 PM
 
kathymuggle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,009
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 148 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
The bolded is a pretty simplistic statement.

Down Syndrome rates have increased pretty dramatically, for instance. I don't think anyone here is going to argue with the fact that it is a genetic condition.

"From 1979 through 2003, the prevalence of DS at birth increased by 31.1%, from 9.0 to 11.8 per 10000 live births in 10 US regions. In 2002, the prevalence among children and adolescents (0–19 years old) was 10.3 per 10000. The prevalence of DS among children in a given age group consistently increased over time but decreased with age within a given birth cohort."

http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...24/6/1565.long

And thats just live births. It's estimated that 2/3 of all Down Syndrome pregnancies are terminated in the US.
Bolding mine. The increase is due to the trend towards older mothers.

Personally, I find expected rises in numbers less problematic than unexpected rises in numbers…The degree to which numbers rise is also important.

Down syndrome is also not an epidemic, IMHO.

It might be useful to define epidemic and discuss heritability. Later, though, and perhaps on another thread…. children call.
applejuice and serenbat like this.

There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

Book and herb loving mama to 1 preteen and 2 teens (when did that happen?).  We travel, go to school, homeschool, live rurally, eat our veggies, spend too much time...

kathymuggle is online now  
#33 of 58 Old 06-30-2014, 02:09 PM
 
Mirzam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Outside the hive mind
Posts: 7,355
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
Down Syndrome rates have increased pretty dramatically, for instance. I don't think anyone here is going to argue with the fact that it is a genetic condition.

"From 1979 through 2003, the prevalence of DS at birth increased by 31.1%, from 9.0 to 11.8 per 10000 live births in 10 US regions. In 2002, the prevalence among children and adolescents (0–19 years old) was 10.3 per 10000. The prevalence of DS among children in a given age group consistently increased over time but decreased with age within a given birth cohort."

http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...24/6/1565.long

And thats just live births. It's estimated that 2/3 of all Down Syndrome pregnancies are terminated in the US.
Down Syndrome was first identified in England in 1866, and the first child diagnosed in Germany was in 1922. Of course it can't be proven but it has been theorized that it could be a congenital condition caused by Jenner's smallpox vaccine. Of course it could be better diagnosis, maybe it was missed prior to 1866. LOL
applejuice and serenbat like this.

Rainbow.giftstillheart.gifsmile.gif

 

"If you find from your own experience that something is a fact and it contradicts what some authority has written down, then you must abandon the authority and base your reasoning on your own findings"~ Leonardo da Vinci

Mirzam is online now  
#34 of 58 Old 06-30-2014, 02:11 PM
 
serenbat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,255
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post
Bolding mine. The increase is due to the trend towards older mothers.

Personally, I find expected rises in numbers less problematic than unexpected rises in numbers…The degree to which numbers rise is also important.

Down syndrome is also not an epidemic, IMHO.

It might be useful to define epidemic and discuss heritability. Later, though, and perhaps on another thread…. children call.
It's also not contagious.
We also would need to factor in infants with Downs that now due to heart surgery improvements are making it beyond infancy, that did not occurs in the numbers we now have even 20 years ago.
applejuice likes this.

 

 pro-transparency advocate

&

lurk.gif  PROUD member of the .3% club!

 

Want to join? Just ask me!

 

"You know, in my day we used to sit on our ass smoking Parliaments for nine months.

Today, you have one piece of Brie and everybody goes berserk."      ROTFLMAO.gif 

serenbat is offline  
#35 of 58 Old 06-30-2014, 06:44 PM
 
Deborah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: the Seacoast of Bohemia
Posts: 6,406
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 113 Post(s)
The CDC is making some interesting assumptions in their expectation that diphtheria would come roaring back and cause hundreds of thousands of cases and deaths.

For one thing, the last big epidemic, with about 200,000 cases, was in the early 1920s. Although a vaccine was available by 1928, vaccination programs were inconsistent, there was no funding of vaccination by the federal government or by charities and there is no evidence that the vaccine had any effect on incidence, which continued to drop at about the same rate.

Here is some evidence from the early 1950s:
Quote:
From an article by Geoffrey Edsall–Immunization of Adults Against Diptheria and Tetanus–presented in 1951 and published in 1952: …generally agreed the relative susceptibility of adults to diphtheria is related to the steady decrease in the incidence of the disease, a decrease which in this country has proceeded almost without interruption for the past eighty years, and which has occurred in states with no extensive immunization programs as well as in those with long established programs.
emphasis added.

I can come up with the actual number of cases in the 1930s . Suffice it to say that they were very much lower than the 200,000 from the last major epidemic. The decline in incidence, began, according to Edsall, somewhere around 1870, which would have been roughly 58 years before the vaccine was invented.
applejuice likes this.
Deborah is online now  
#36 of 58 Old 06-30-2014, 06:52 PM
 
Deborah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: the Seacoast of Bohemia
Posts: 6,406
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 113 Post(s)
The CDC reference isn't very big on citations. There is only one that is vaguely relevant to the claim that an end to vaccinations would cause huge outbreaks in the US "Vitek CR, Wharton M. Diphtheria in the former Soviet Union: reemergence of a pandemic disease. Emerg Infect Dis
1998;4:539–50."

There are some serious problems with using the events in the former Soviet Union as a template. At the same time that vaccination rates dipped, living standards plummeted. Sanitation went down hill, malnutrition and alcoholism shot up.
applejuice and samaxtics like this.
Deborah is online now  
#37 of 58 Old 06-30-2014, 08:23 PM
 
applejuice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: hunting the wild aebelskiever
Posts: 18,588
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
RE: diphtheria

As I understand the disease, it is a disease of poor living conditions, ventilation, and nutrition.

I was told by older members of my family, born 1900-1915, that the usual treatment for diphtheria was warm milk which is just wrong.

So poor understanding of the nature of the disease probably contributed to the mortality.
applejuice is offline  
#38 of 58 Old 07-01-2014, 06:06 AM
 
Deborah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: the Seacoast of Bohemia
Posts: 6,406
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 113 Post(s)
Good points applejuice. It is likely that with the decline in overall living conditions in the former Soviet Union, medical care had gone down hill, too.

A friend who was living in Russia at the time of the outbreak told me of public health people going methodically through buildings trying to find cases of diphtheria. She told the public health people that she and her family were vaxed and didn't need to be checked. They laughed grimly and checked them all anyway. Which says a lot about the value of the vaccine in the actual presence of the disease.
rachelsmama likes this.
Deborah is online now  
#39 of 58 Old 07-01-2014, 08:34 AM
 
samaxtics's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Canada
Posts: 396
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 55 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
"The overall case-fatality rate for diphtheria is 5%–10%, with
higher death rates (up to 20%) among persons younger than
5 and older than 40 years of age. The case-fatality rate for
diphtheria has changed very little during the last 50 years."

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pin...nloads/dip.pdf
Perhaps I should have qualified "Original Source Please"
samaxtics is online now  
#40 of 58 Old 07-01-2014, 08:55 AM
 
Deborah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: the Seacoast of Bohemia
Posts: 6,406
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 113 Post(s)
The CDC is very weak on references. Which is odd, because they definitely encourage people to dig into the references...on any thing that is critical of vaccines.

I went searching. http://emedicine.medscape.com/articl...overview#a0104

Quote:
Overcrowding, poor health, substandard living conditions, incomplete immunization, and immunocompromised states facilitate susceptibility to diphtheria and are risk factors associated with transmission of this disease
This makes it even odder that the discussions on the outbreak in the former Soviet Union almost always focus on vaccination status and do not discuss falling living standards. The reference for this quote is "Harnisch JP, Tronca E, Nolan CM, Turck M, Holmes KK. Diphtheria among alcoholic urban adults. A decade of experience in Seattle. Ann Intern Med. Jul 1 1989;111(1):71-82." Alcoholism was a factor in Russia, too.

Quote:
The most widely quoted diphtheria mortality rate is 5-10%. It may reach higher than 20% in children younger than 5 years and adults older than 40 years. Immunization patterns have the most influence on mortality patterns. Mortality rates have not changed significantly over the past few decades. Most deaths occur on days 3-4 secondary to asphyxia with a pharyngeal membrane or due to myocarditis. Mortality rates of 30-40% have been reported for bacteremic disease.[9]
and the reference points to (drumroll) the CDC. "CDC. Summary of notifiable diseases--United States, 2001. MMWR Morb Mortal Wkly Rep. May 2 2003;50(53):i-xxiv, 1-108."

I'll leave it to someone else to look at that CDC reference and see where they found the number.

As I've already pointed out multiple times, incidence of this disease dropped massively prior to universal vaccination. And yet they endlessly claim that vaccination has an influence on mortality...
Mirzam and samaxtics like this.
Deborah is online now  
#41 of 58 Old 07-01-2014, 12:36 PM - Thread Starter
 
teacozy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Hogwarts
Posts: 1,387
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 250 Post(s)
Don't have a lot of time to respond right now, son has to go down for his nap and the World Cup is starting soon (Go USA!)

The 700,000 cases of diphtheria estimate did not come from the CDC, if you read my post. It came from a massive study from about a year or so ago. http://www.tycho.pitt.edu/
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMms1215400


Here is an article that goes into how the data was collected etc. http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/1...ype=blogs&_r=0
[


Kathy- increased paternal age is also thought to be contributing to the increase in autism. We don't know yet what all exactly causes autism. If we didn't know that increased maternal age increased the risk of Down Syndrome, who knows what we would be attributing the increase to. Internet maybe? Cell phones? Sonograms? Who knows. But there can be increases in genetic conditions or "epidemics" was my point.
@Mirzam - Now Down Syndrome is caused by vaccines too?! A condition that happens at or before conception? Reaffirms the great statement: It's always the vaccine. It's never NOT the vaccine.

Down Syndrome had been shown in art, literature and science for centuries before John Down officially identified it in 1866.

http://www.ndss.org/Down-Syndrome/Wh...Down-Syndrome/

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson 
teacozy is offline  
#42 of 58 Old 07-01-2014, 01:19 PM
 
Mirzam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Outside the hive mind
Posts: 7,355
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
Now Down Syndrome is caused by vaccines too?! A condition that happens at or before conception? Reaffirms the great statement: It's always the vaccine. It's never NOT the vaccine.

Down Syndrome had been shown in art, literature and science for centuries before John Down officially identified it in 1866.

http://www.ndss.org/Down-Syndrome/Wh...Down-Syndrome/
@teacozy , I am have no clue why you think "a condition that happens at or before conception" is proof that Down Syndrome could not be a vaccine induced congenital condition. All you did was cut and paste a paragraph from the Down Syndrome Society to 'prove' that the condition was represented in art, literature, 'science'.

It's never the vaccine, is it?
applejuice and serenbat like this.

Rainbow.giftstillheart.gifsmile.gif

 

"If you find from your own experience that something is a fact and it contradicts what some authority has written down, then you must abandon the authority and base your reasoning on your own findings"~ Leonardo da Vinci

Mirzam is online now  
#43 of 58 Old 07-01-2014, 03:42 PM
 
applejuice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: hunting the wild aebelskiever
Posts: 18,588
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
MIrzam, that is interesting about Down's Syndrome.

Dr. Mendelsohn used to say that Down's Syndrome was the result of how many x-rays have been aimed at a woman which damage the ova over a lifetime. Vaccines should never be left out of the consideration since it is a form of pollution.
Mirzam likes this.
applejuice is offline  
#44 of 58 Old 07-01-2014, 04:21 PM
 
Mirzam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Outside the hive mind
Posts: 7,355
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by applejuice View Post
MIrzam, that is interesting about Down's Syndrome.

Dr. Mendelsohn used to say that Down's Syndrome was the result of how many x-rays have been aimed at a woman which damage the ova over a lifetime. Vaccines should never be left out of the consideration since it is a form of pollution.
The cr@p that Jenner injected into people was most certainly pollution.
applejuice and beckybird like this.

Rainbow.giftstillheart.gifsmile.gif

 

"If you find from your own experience that something is a fact and it contradicts what some authority has written down, then you must abandon the authority and base your reasoning on your own findings"~ Leonardo da Vinci

Mirzam is online now  
#45 of 58 Old 07-01-2014, 07:40 PM
 
Deborah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: the Seacoast of Bohemia
Posts: 6,406
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 113 Post(s)
Quote:
The 700,000 cases of diphtheria estimate did not come from the CDC, if you read my post. It came from a massive study from about a year or so ago. http://www.tycho.pitt.edu/
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMms1215400
Oh, sorry, I got mixed up!

But I know which study you mean and I'm very sorry, but I don't trust those numbers at all. I spent a lot of time digging into diphtheria and the data is absolutely solid. The rate of infection began dropping many years before the vaccine was invented. It continued dropping at very much the same rate as the vaccine began to be, unevenly, used in the US. The rate was quite low by the late 1930s, early 1940s when the vaccine finally began to be widely available.

I distrust the diphtheria numbers in particular, because that is the one vaccine related illness that can be used to build a case for millions of lives saved, so there is a big temptation to distort the numbers in one way or another. And every set of numbers I've seen from a pro-vaccine source on diphtheria has done just that.
Deborah is online now  
#46 of 58 Old 07-01-2014, 11:05 PM
 
prosciencemum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,729
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 79 Post(s)
Suggesting Down syndrome is linked to vaccines is a new one for me. I actually thought it might be satire until I realised it was meant seriously.

What physical mechanism is suggested that links the introduction of weakened viruses into muscle via injection to the creation of extra chromosomes in the DNA of offspring?

Is anything not potentially linked to vaccine side effects?
teacozy likes this.
prosciencemum is online now  
#47 of 58 Old 07-02-2014, 05:49 AM
 
kathymuggle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,009
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 148 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
@Mirzam - Now Down Syndrome is caused by vaccines too?! A condition that happens at or before conception? Reaffirms the great statement: It's always the vaccine. It's never NOT the vaccine.
One example does not make a case.

I am non-vax and do not think vaccines cause Down Syndrome.

Ergo statement "it's never not the vaccine" false.
applejuice and rednightingale like this.

There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

Book and herb loving mama to 1 preteen and 2 teens (when did that happen?).  We travel, go to school, homeschool, live rurally, eat our veggies, spend too much time...


Last edited by kathymuggle; 07-02-2014 at 06:14 AM.
kathymuggle is online now  
#48 of 58 Old 07-02-2014, 08:48 AM - Thread Starter
 
teacozy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Hogwarts
Posts: 1,387
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 250 Post(s)
Deb, diphtheria incidence and death in England and Wales:


“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson 
teacozy is offline  
#49 of 58 Old 07-02-2014, 08:51 AM - Thread Starter
 
teacozy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Hogwarts
Posts: 1,387
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 250 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post
Suggesting Down syndrome is linked to vaccines is a new one for me. I actually thought it might be satire until I realised it was meant seriously.

What physical mechanism is suggested that links the introduction of weakened viruses into muscle via injection to the creation of extra chromosomes in the DNA of offspring?

Is anything not potentially linked to vaccine side effects?
New one for me too. I picked Down Syndrome specifically because I figured there was no way someone was going to try and link vaccines to the condition.

Apparently I was wrong...

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson 
teacozy is offline  
#50 of 58 Old 07-04-2014, 06:53 PM
 
applejuice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: hunting the wild aebelskiever
Posts: 18,588
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Tetanus is known now to cause a terrible autoimmune condition known as antiphospholipid syndrome, otherwise known as APS or Hughes Syndrome.

I would not want to have that.

http://healthimpactnews.com/2013/tet...ipid-syndrome/
Chicharronita and beckybird like this.
applejuice is offline  
#51 of 58 Old 07-04-2014, 07:54 PM
 
Deborah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: the Seacoast of Bohemia
Posts: 6,406
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 113 Post(s)
Oh, that reminds me about the diphtheria thing.

So how is it that in the US diphtheria incidence and deaths dropped steadily before the intro of the vaccine and in England the drop began exactly at the same time that the vaccine was introduced. How convenient!

However, if you look closely at the graph, there was a dramatic drop right around 1939 and then it started going up again, even after the vaccine began to be used and then there was a dramatic downturn. So it isn't actually as obvious as it looks at first glance.

Here are some of the other factors at play in the UK.

During World War II the English evacuated many children from the city slums into the countryside. This was undoubtedly traumatic for the children, but it was also a big change in living conditions for most of them, with better food, more food and for some, their first experience of indoor plumbing and other amenities. Then there was a long stretch without much going on and many of the children returned to their families in the cities, where they returned to inadequate food and inadequate sanitation.

However, two other factors were at play which would have had an effect on the health of children. One was rationing, which favored children, even poor children and provided extra milk, fruit and eggs for children and pregnant women. The second was high employment, which meant that there were funds available to purchase the little food which was available. So, the vaccine was not the only factors at play. Incidentally, rationing continued until 1954, and with the introduction of some degree of socialism in the UK, the living conditions never slid back to the pre-war misery that allowed illnesses like diphtheria to run rampant in the slums of big cities.

Here is a link to an article on rationing http://www.primaryhomeworkhelp.co.uk/war/rationing.htm

Here is one on the evacuations http://www.tnunn.ndo.co.uk/evacuees.htm which does point out that sometimes it was middle class children from cities ending up in poor villages -- lots of culture shock all the way around!
Deborah is online now  
#52 of 58 Old 07-05-2014, 09:14 AM
 
Mirzam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Outside the hive mind
Posts: 7,355
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Deborah, my mother, her two brothers and my grandmother were evacuated during the war. My grandmother hated it, and brought them all home. They lived in a town on the Thames Estuary which was the route the German bombers took to London (they followed the river Thames). She preferred to take their chances at home than be separated from the rest of her family.

I have heard many stories about rationing, and the joys of an orange or a banana. But these war children grew up healthy. When your read about GPs experiences with measles in Britain in the late 1950s, they rarely if ever saw complications or death.

Here is a photo of my mother, her two brother and my grandmother in Trafalgar Square one day after VE Day! They are all alive, along with her older brother who served in India during the war, now 91 years young and still ballroom dancing every week!


Rainbow.giftstillheart.gifsmile.gif

 

"If you find from your own experience that something is a fact and it contradicts what some authority has written down, then you must abandon the authority and base your reasoning on your own findings"~ Leonardo da Vinci

Mirzam is online now  
#53 of 58 Old 07-05-2014, 01:51 PM - Thread Starter
 
teacozy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Hogwarts
Posts: 1,387
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 250 Post(s)
Well this is relevant. Article just came out yesterday:

"The oldest confirmed case of Down's syndrome has been found: the skeleton of a child who died 1500 years ago in early medieval France. According to the archaeologists, the way the child was buried hints that Down's syndrome was not necessarily stigmatised in the Middle Ages."

http://www.newscientist.com/article/...l#.U7hknI1dXeZ

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson 
teacozy is offline  
#54 of 58 Old 07-05-2014, 02:24 PM
 
Deborah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: the Seacoast of Bohemia
Posts: 6,406
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 113 Post(s)
Mirzam, what an amazing story! Thanks for sharing.
applejuice likes this.
Deborah is online now  
#55 of 58 Old 07-05-2014, 02:57 PM
 
Mirzam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Outside the hive mind
Posts: 7,355
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deborah View Post
Mirzam, what an amazing story! Thanks for sharing.
Thanks. My grandmother loved to tell the story of how she walked for miles to get to the train station with a pushchair (stoller) with three wheels and a baby in it (the younger boy in the photograph) and my mother and uncle. She was one determined lady. The older gentleman with a beard standing behind my grandmother holding a newspaper under his arm, was her father, my great grandfather.
applejuice, Deborah and beckybird like this.

Rainbow.giftstillheart.gifsmile.gif

 

"If you find from your own experience that something is a fact and it contradicts what some authority has written down, then you must abandon the authority and base your reasoning on your own findings"~ Leonardo da Vinci

Mirzam is online now  
#56 of 58 Old 07-05-2014, 02:59 PM
 
kathymuggle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,009
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 148 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
Well this is relevant. Article just came out yesterday:

"The oldest confirmed case of Down's syndrome has been found: the skeleton of a child who died 1500 years ago in early medieval France. According to the archaeologists, the way the child was buried hints that Down's syndrome was not necessarily stigmatised in the Middle Ages."

http://www.newscientist.com/article/...l#.U7hknI1dXeZ
See….and I thought this quote was relevant:

Starbuck is not convinced by this argument. "It can be very difficult to extrapolate cultural values and behaviour from burials or skeletal remains," he says.
applejuice likes this.

There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

Book and herb loving mama to 1 preteen and 2 teens (when did that happen?).  We travel, go to school, homeschool, live rurally, eat our veggies, spend too much time...

kathymuggle is online now  
#57 of 58 Old 07-05-2014, 03:47 PM - Thread Starter
 
teacozy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Hogwarts
Posts: 1,387
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 250 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post
See….and I thought this quote was relevant:

Starbuck is not convinced by this argument. "It can be very difficult to extrapolate cultural values and behaviour from burials or skeletal remains," he says.
The point was that Down Sydrome has existed long before vaccines, which a PP seemed to have disputed.

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson 
teacozy is offline  
#58 of 58 Old 07-05-2014, 03:54 PM
 
Mirzam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Outside the hive mind
Posts: 7,355
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
teacozy, that article did not prove the skeleton had Down Syndrome. It was speculation.
beckybird likes this.

Rainbow.giftstillheart.gifsmile.gif

 

"If you find from your own experience that something is a fact and it contradicts what some authority has written down, then you must abandon the authority and base your reasoning on your own findings"~ Leonardo da Vinci

Mirzam is online now  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off