The Daily Show: Liberal "Idiocy" on Vaccines - Page 2 - Mothering Forums

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#31 of 83 Old 06-05-2014, 04:19 PM
 
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This article from Down Under is about a baby that died three generations ago from rotavirus.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/o...-1226941957346

Honestly, sanitation has improved immensely in the past 70+ years. This article is ridiculous. I can't imagine a baby dying from rotavirus if the mother was breastfeeding.

But, Offit would be proud.
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#32 of 83 Old 06-05-2014, 05:06 PM
 
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This article from Down Under is about a baby that died three generations ago from rotavirus.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/o...-1226941957346

Honestly, sanitation has improved immensely in the past 70+ years. This article is ridiculous. I can't imagine a baby dying from rotavirus if the mother was breastfeeding.

But, Offit would be proud.
Interesting that they knew 85 years ago that it was rotavirus when rotavirus wasn't identified until 1973 and is said to account for 40-50% of all cases of severe diarrhea. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19799704
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#33 of 83 Old 06-05-2014, 05:30 PM
 
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Don't have time to make a thorough reply....

@Taximom, Paul Offit is an expert on vaccines and vaccine reactions. He has never said that the only kind of vaccine reaction is an allergic reaction. He stated in an interview (that I believe I've posted here before) that his own daughter suffered a seizure as a reaction to a vaccine.

Second, his vaccine saves hundreds of lives per day in developing countries. Even in the US, rotavirus used to cause somewhere around 50 deaths a year and many many more hospitalizations. He cares about all children, not just wealthy ones born in a privileged country where most have access to hospitals and IV fluids that prevent most rotavirus deaths. What a monster! I wonder how many lives Dr. Mercola saves a day with his vitamin D sprays and tanning beds?

As expected, Sarah Pope has zero qualifications or expertise when it comes to vaccines/medicine/infectious diseases. She says on her blog she has a BA in economics and a masters in Government Administration. She worked for Accenture and at a brokerage firm.

She absolutely can make her own medical decisions, but the fact that she has "researched" and decided that vaccines are dangerous, and that herd immunity is a myth, is not impressive just because she is college educated. She has no qualifications that deem her any kind of expert on the topic.

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#34 of 83 Old 06-05-2014, 05:33 PM
 
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Good point samaxtics. Who knows what the little one died of so long ago.
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#35 of 83 Old 06-05-2014, 06:52 PM
 
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I don't think parents are looking to hang a shingle and open a practice based on reading medical papers about vaccination anymore than parents who read up on childbirth are looking to become ob/gyns. They just want to research their medical choices. And I firmly believe that there are parents that have spent more time reading about vaccination than your average paediatrician and/or GP. And that point only gets reinforced every time I see a doctor on TV saying thimerosal was taken out of the MMR.

.
Well said.
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#36 of 83 Old 06-05-2014, 07:08 PM
 
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Sorry to go a bit off topic, but this claim that "educated parents are the ones choosing not to vaccinate" is just not impressive, because the overwhelming vast majority of them have no expertise in medicine or vaccines or the immune system or infectious diseases.
There is this idea among some pro-vaxxers that non-vaxxers are not smart. To prove this point I mosied on over to refutation to anti-vaccine meme facebook page (gag) and found the image below. There were, sadly, many memes to pick from.



Even the title of the piece in question says "idiocy"

When non-vaxxers point out that statistically they tend to be well educated, it is to refute memes like the one above and stem the stereotypes.
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#37 of 83 Old 06-05-2014, 07:46 PM
 
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Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post
There is this idea among some pro-vaxxers that non-vaxxers are not smart. To prove this point I mosied on over to refutation to anti-vaccine meme facebook page (gag) and found the image below. There were, sadly, many memes to pick from.



Even the title of the piece in question says "idiocy"

When non-vaxxers point out that statistically they tend to be well educated, it is to refute memes like the one above and stem the stereotypes.
You can find facebook memes that say just about anything.

Paul Offit said in this very video that a large portion of parents that don't vaccine are white, upper middle class, college educated parents with advanced degrees. This is made clear in many many articles on vaccines in the media.

The title is idiocy on vaccines, not that the parents are idiots in a general sense.

While I think that title is harsh, I stand by the fact that most of these parents are not any kind of experts in medicine, vaccines, the immune system, or infectious diseases.

"While Galileo was a rebel, not all rebels are Galileo." - Norman Levitt, mathematician and critic of anti-science postmodernism
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#38 of 83 Old 06-05-2014, 08:07 PM
 
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This conversation reminds me of a meme that was going around a couple months ago.

I'm sure by now people have googled the answers, but I still think it makes a good point.


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#39 of 83 Old 06-05-2014, 08:41 PM
 
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Dr. Tetyana Obukhanych PhD., is an immunologist who has a child and is against vaccination. She does not believe in magic. She is well-educated and knows what she is talking about.

She wrote Vaccine Illusion and it is available on Kindle.

Dr. Robert S. Mendelsohn, MD advocated against routine childhood vaccines in 1976 during the swine flu epidemic.
Dr. Suzanne Humpheries, MD left nephrology because the one thing all her renal failure patients had in common was a recent flu shot. She studied homeopathy.
There are plenty more reputable doctors who do not support routine vaccinations.

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#40 of 83 Old 06-05-2014, 08:42 PM
 
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As expected, Sarah Pope has zero qualifications or expertise when it comes to vaccines/medicine/infectious diseases. She says on her blog she has a BA in economics and a masters in Government Administration. She worked for Accenture and at a brokerage firm.

She absolutely can make her own medical decisions, but the fact that she has "researched" and decided that vaccines are dangerous, and that herd immunity is a myth, is not impressive just because she is college educated. She has no qualifications that deem her any kind of expert on the topic.
So Teacozy what makes you an expert to decide that vaccines are right for you? Your degree is what? You claim to do research, what makes what your read better?

Did you ever stop to think that Sarah Pope took her advise where many others do, from their doctor? And also choose to look into herself, just like you claim to do.

I did my "research" and talked it over with my Ped who happens to support me, and there happens to be other MD's that also support not vaccinating.

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#41 of 83 Old 06-05-2014, 09:15 PM
 
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Dr. Tetyana Obukhanych PhD., is an immunologist who has a child and is against vaccination. She does not believe in magic. She is well-educated and knows what she is talking about.

She wrote Vaccine Illusion and it is available on Kindle.

Dr. Robert S. Mendelsohn, MD advocated against routine childhood vaccines in 1976 during the swine flu epidemic.
Dr. Suzanne Humpheries, MD left nephrology because the one thing all her renal failure patients had in common was a recent flu shot. She studied homeopathy.
There are plenty more reputable doctors who do not support routine vaccinations.
There are always going to be outliers.

There are historians that are holocaust deniers, there are scientists who deny evolution etc.

"Michael Behe, a leading biochemist, who publishes about legitimate biochemistry, denies evolution, and is one of the major backers of intelligent design. Peter Duesberg is a brilliant scientist who discovered how certain genes caused cancer. He is an incredible scientist and is a member of the National Academies of Science, the most prestigious scientific institution in the world. Despite all of this Duesberg is an AIDS denialist, who doesn’t believe that HIV causes AIDS; in fact, he thinks that HIV is harmless, totally contradicting the valid scientific consensus on the topic. Because of Duesberg’s hypothesis, some African health ministers refuse to approve of basic treatments for HIV, which has lead to the deaths of large numbers of Africans."

So whats your point? A couple scientists or experts on the fringe does not a controversy make.

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#42 of 83 Old 06-05-2014, 09:18 PM
 
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So Teacozy what makes you an expert to decide that vaccines are right for you? Your degree is what? You claim to do research, what makes what your read better?

Did you ever stop to think that Sarah Pope took her advise where many others do, from their doctor? And also choose to look into herself, just like you claim to do.

I did my "research" and talked it over with my Ped who happens to support me, and there happens to be other MD's that also support not vaccinating.
I am absolutely not an expert on vaccines, medicine, the immune system or infectious diseases . I've never pretended to be.

The difference is that I'm not trying to tell 99.9 percent of immunology and epidemiology experts who know infinitely more about this topic that I do that they're wrong either.

"While Galileo was a rebel, not all rebels are Galileo." - Norman Levitt, mathematician and critic of anti-science postmodernism

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#43 of 83 Old 06-05-2014, 10:14 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Where are you getting your 99.9% figure?

“It is simply no longer possible to believe much of the clinical research that is published, or to rely on the judgment of trusted physicians or authoritative medical guidelines.” - Marcia Angell, M.D., former NEJM Editor
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#44 of 83 Old 06-05-2014, 10:19 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
I am absolutely not an expert on vaccines, medicine, the immune system or infectious diseases . I've never pretended to be.

The difference is that I'm not trying to tell 99.9 percent of immunology and epidemiology experts who know infinitely more about this topic that I do that they're wrong either.
It sounds like you're making a leap of faith, then. Is your belief in vaccine schedule compliance based on faith or science? Surely it can't be science because you yourself admitted that you're not an expert and therefore don't know enough about it. Faith in certain scientists seems to be more the motivating factor.

To some degree, we all choose whom to believe. I just try not to make that choice based on the Bandwagon Fallacy. Copernicus and Sommelweiss didn't exactly represent a consensus, did they?

“It is simply no longer possible to believe much of the clinical research that is published, or to rely on the judgment of trusted physicians or authoritative medical guidelines.” - Marcia Angell, M.D., former NEJM Editor
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#45 of 83 Old 06-06-2014, 03:55 AM
 
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I am absolutely not an expert on vaccines, medicine, the immune system or infectious diseases . I've never pretended to be.

The difference is that I'm not trying to tell 99.9 percent of immunology and epidemiology experts who know infinitely more about this topic that I do that they're wrong either.
You must have watched a different interview with Ms Pope, the one I saw SHE was being interview and it was nothing like what you just said. 99%??????

You must have just seen something else
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#46 of 83 Old 06-06-2014, 04:55 AM
 
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You can find facebook memes that say just about anything.
I did not have to look hard, tea. This is a pervasive stereotype.

I was pointing one of the reasons why NVers like to point out that as a demographic they tend to be well educated is to combat a common stereotype.
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#47 of 83 Old 06-06-2014, 05:29 AM
 
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"Sarah, your statements on the show implied that no amount of evidence could ever convince you that vaccines are safe and effective. Is that truly the case?

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Sarah TheHealthyHomeEconomist June 3, 2014 at 9:13 pm
Actually, that part was edited out to make it look that way. What actually happened is that I told Samantha that if vaccine proponents wanted to convince parents like me that vaccination is safe – the first thing that would need to be done is to conduct a true, clinical trial of vaccinated vs unvaccinated children and assess their overall health."

http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.c....t8PneTmB.dpuf
I am going to test the theory that a clinical trial of vaccinated vs unvaccinated children would convince non-vaccintors. But not with one trial, instead I will make non-vaccinators aware of hundreds of such trials.

My hypothesis is that this will convince no non-vaccinators.

Here goes! Non-vaccinators read this link:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?...n+double+blind

Anyone convinced?
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#48 of 83 Old 06-06-2014, 05:59 AM
 
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Dude!!! OT, so I won't waste too many keystrokes going there…but that is one lame bunch of links that do not compare completely unvaccinated children to vaccinated on schedule children.
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#49 of 83 Old 06-06-2014, 06:25 AM
 
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I am going to test the theory that a clinical trial of vaccinated vs unvaccinated children would convince non-vaccintors. But not with one trial, instead I will make non-vaccinators aware of hundreds of such trials.

My hypothesis is that this will convince no non-vaccinators.

Here goes! Non-vaccinators read this link:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?...n+double+blind

Anyone convinced?
Ok let's start with the first one in your list. Here is where you can read the about the Phase I clinical trial: https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/...0707148&rank=1


The study will be conducted in 48 pregnant women and 32 non-pregnant women.

Under exclusion criteria:
HTML Code:
 -History of a febrile illness (greater than or equal to 100.4 degrees Fahrenheit or 38 degrees Celsius) within the past 72 hours for antepartum injection or febrile illness (greater than or equal to 100.4 degrees Fahrenheit or 38 degrees Celsius) within 24 hours for postpartum injection.
HTML Code:
 Previous severe reaction to any vaccine-
HTML Code:
 Receipt of a vaccine (excluding influenza), blood product ([B]excluding Rhogam[/B]) or experimental medicine [B]within the 4 weeks prior to antepartum injection[/B] [B]through 4 weeks following post-partum injection[/B]. However, [B]measles-mumps-rubella vaccine is permitted post-partum[/B]
HTML Code:
 Receipt of or plans to receive [B]influenza vaccine within the 2 weeks prior to or following[/B] antepartum injection
my bold
Is this a study of non-vaccinated vs. vaccinated as in, some participants have never received a vaccine and some have? And the answer is NO. Do you want a chance to go through your list again Tadamsmar before continuing?
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#50 of 83 Old 06-06-2014, 06:35 AM
 
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Dude!!! OT, so I won't waste too many keystrokes going there…but that is one lame bunch of links that do not compare completely unvaccinated children to vaccinated on schedule children.
Good point, many or all of the studies are about single course of immunizations for one or a few diseases.

I will now limit my study to only 100% non-vaccinators. Do the hundreds of clinical trials that I have now made you aware of convince even a single one of you to arrange for your child to get a single immunization?

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In Switzerland they sent out an electronic survey (to subscribers of a immunization newsletter that reaches 95% of paediatricians and less than 20% of all other physicians) regarding their vaccination habits for their own children. 2070 surveys went out and 1017 completed surveys came back. All physicians vaccinated children in their practice.

"Ninety-two percent of pe- diatricians followed the official immunization recom- mendations for their own children."

"nonpediatricians were more likely not to have immunized their children against measles, mumps, hepatitis B, or Haemophilus influenzae type b. They more frequently postponed diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis (DTP) (OR: 4.5; 95% CI: 2.0–10.19) and measles-mumps- rubella (MMR) vaccination..... Several comparisons confirmed the weaker use of the more recently licensed vaccines by nonpediatricians."

"Although projected immuni- zation rates were higher than effective rates, 10% of non- pediatricians would still not follow the official immunization recommendations in 2004. They would more frequently refrain from using combination vaccines and postpone DTP and MMR immunization to later in life."
http://pediatrics.aappublications.or.../e623.full.pdf

Bear in mind that over half of the recipients did not do the survey.
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#52 of 83 Old 06-06-2014, 07:12 AM
 
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Good point, many or all of the studies are about single course of immunizations for one or a few diseases.

I will now limit my study to only 100% non-vaccinators. Do the hundreds of clinical trials that I have now made you aware of convince even a single one of you to arrange for your child to get a single immunization?
Tadamsmar, when we say unvaccinated vs vaccinated it is to be taken in the very literal sense. You claim there that such a study exists. You can't throw up a bunch of links (have YOU read each one?) and expect US to go through each one to find the one that meets the criteria. You made the claim, you must support that with evidence and then we can tell you whether it convinces us.
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#53 of 83 Old 06-06-2014, 07:36 AM
 
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Tadamsmar, when we say unvaccinated vs vaccinated it is to be taken in the very literal sense. You claim there that such a study exists. You can't throw up a bunch of links (have YOU read each one?) and expect US to go through each one to find the one that meets the criteria. You made the claim, you must support that with evidence and then we can tell you whether it convinces us.
Non-vaccinators, replace the word "children" in the search with "newborn" or "neonate". Do any of the resulting randomized placebo-controlled double-blind clinical trials on newborns that found no safety-related effects convince even a single non-vaccinator to get even a single vaccination?
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#54 of 83 Old 06-06-2014, 09:31 AM
 
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Non-vaccinators, replace the word "children" in the search with "newborn" or "neonate". Do any of the resulting randomized placebo-controlled double-blind clinical trials on newborns that found no safety-related effects convince even a single non-vaccinator to get even a single vaccination?
So, you make the claim and we do the work to support your claim?

Because if that's how it works I would like to proclaim that I would be a most benevolent wealthy person. Now everyone send me money so I can prove it. All currencies and denominations accepted.
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I did not have to look hard, tea. This is a pervasive stereotype.

I was pointing one of the reasons why NVers like to point out that as a demographic they tend to be well educated is to combat a common stereotype.
Except you are misrepresenting what that quote was referring to. It wasn't referring to NVers in a general sense. I just went and looked at it. It said "If you 'believe' nutritional measures or homeopathy will save you from vaccine preventable diseases…." followed by that meme.

Sorry, I have to agree that if a person thinks water pills and lots of kale will prevent them from getting measles if exposed then that is magical thinking.

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Originally Posted by Turquesa View Post
It sounds like you're making a leap of faith, then. Is your belief in vaccine schedule compliance based on faith or science? Surely it can't be science because you yourself admitted that you're not an expert and therefore don't know enough about it. Faith in certain scientists seems to be more the motivating factor.

To some degree, we all choose whom to believe. I just try not to make that choice based on the Bandwagon Fallacy. Copernicus and Sommelweiss didn't exactly represent a consensus, did they?
Science isn't a belief system. Like my signature says, it's true whether or not you believe in it.

You don't have to be a scientist to appreciate the scientific method. I don't know about everyone else, but we learned the importance of the scientific method in elementary school.

"While Galileo was a rebel, not all rebels are Galileo." - Norman Levitt, mathematician and critic of anti-science postmodernism
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#57 of 83 Old 06-06-2014, 09:49 AM
 
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Teacozy, how do you define science?
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#58 of 83 Old 06-06-2014, 10:10 AM
 
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Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
Except you are misrepresenting what that quote was referring to. It wasn't referring to NVers in a general sense. I just went and looked at it. It said "If you 'believe' nutritional measures or homeopathy will save you from vaccine preventable diseases…." followed by that meme.
Do you deny that there are a bunch of memes and comments on rtavm that imply or state non-vaxxers are less than smart? You shouldn't - it is crystal clear and very verifiable. If you do…well then, I have no words.
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#59 of 83 Old 06-06-2014, 10:52 AM
 
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Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
She absolutely can make her own medical decisions, but the fact that she has "researched" and decided that vaccines are dangerous, and that herd immunity is a myth, is not impressive just because she is college educated. She has no qualifications that deem her any kind of expert on the topic.
She is making medical decisions for her children. The support forum should be called "I'm Not Vaccinating my Babies" or similar to avoid obscuring the real situation which posters her are chronically overlooking.
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#60 of 83 Old 06-06-2014, 12:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by tadamsmar View Post
She is making medical decisions for her children. The support forum should be called "I'm Not Vaccinating my Babies" or similar to avoid obscuring the real situation which posters her are chronically overlooking.
Is anyone confused by the intent of the "I'm not vaccinating" support forum that it needs the qualifier "my babies/children"?
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