The Daily Show: Liberal "Idiocy" on Vaccines - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 83 Old 06-03-2014, 07:06 PM - Thread Starter
 
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The Daily Show: Liberal "Idiocy" on Vaccines

Sooooooooo? What do you ladies think?

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/the-daily...y-on-vaccines/

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#2 of 83 Old 06-03-2014, 09:04 PM
 
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I am a conservative and prochoice on the vax issue.

My personal choice is not to vaccinate.

The woman in the interview said she was pleased with the interview. I agree. She came off well.

Scientists have lied to us before, ever read the Population Bomb?

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#3 of 83 Old 06-04-2014, 06:20 AM
 
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left leaning heathen here

I read an article recently that said non-vaxxers tend to come from all political demographics. I think that is true.
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#4 of 83 Old 06-04-2014, 06:53 AM
 
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I think the one Colbert did was funnier.

I did not think the blogger came off well at all. She stated it didn't matter what anyone ever tells her, or what the science ever shows; she will never change her mind. It makes her look anti-science and not well informed.

All of the non vaccination people I know do tend to be liberals. But, I tend to mostly know liberals, so once again, my anecdata fails. I think they only drew the comparison because every news story is divided up in to liberal or conservative these days, so they thought it would be funny if a story like this, which has nothing to do with politics, was also divided up by political leaning. Colbert does that all the time, too. I think it is kind of a thing.

The comparison with climate change denialists was interesting. Apt?
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#5 of 83 Old 06-04-2014, 07:32 AM
 
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The comparison with climate change denialists was interesting. Apt?
Not really.

We could make a big list - it could be fun - but at the end of the day the fundamental issue for most non-vaxxers comes down to parents having the right to freely and without coersion decide for themselves what drugs their children will take, barring extreme circumstances. That bears no relationship to climate change.

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#6 of 83 Old 06-04-2014, 07:45 AM
 
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I was going to link the blog post of the blogger who was featured in the film, but apple beat me to it

I agree with Serenity that she did not come off well at all. Her blog post sounded like a contrived "save face" and PR spin piece.

In my opinion she came across as dogmatic and anti science in the interview. I do not think this was a "win" for the NV side.

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#7 of 83 Old 06-04-2014, 07:56 AM
 
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I think the one Colbert did was funnier.

I did not think the blogger came off well at all. She stated it didn't matter what anyone ever tells her, or what the science ever shows; she will never change her mind. It makes her look anti-science and not well informed.

I think the blogger came off just fine. I do wonder why she agreed to do it - though. Probably to get free publicity for her blog - which she did.

I don't think she said above (in blue). People can watch it and decide for themselves.

Samantha Bee kept cutting her off, but she got in a point or two. I liked the one on consensus: the blogger said "consensus by who?" It is an important point as most studies are industry based studies (IIRC) and there is an incredible amount of collateral damage that can happen if you question vaccines.

ETA:

The only quote I could find that hints at what you are saying is "you can line up the doctors from here to down the street and I am still not going to change my mind".
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#8 of 83 Old 06-04-2014, 08:11 AM
 
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I was going to link the blog post of the blogger who was featured in the film, but apple beat me to it

I agree with Serenity that she did not come off well at all. Her blog post sounded like a contrived "save face" and PR spin piece.

In my opinion she came across as dogmatic and anti science in the interview. I do not think this was a "win" for the NV side.
It was extremely clear the interview was longer and only snippets were highlighted, perhaps even out of context. That is speculative - but a common issue with snippets as opposed to full interviews.

I disagree with you on the "win" thing. Lots of people think non-vaxxers are uneducated. When they realise that many people who are deliberately non-vax are well educated (which the video clearly shows) it may cause some to think twice. Why do well educated people reject vaccines?

As an aside, I am less thrilled with Offitt than usual. It may be his opinion that the only thing that will make people return to vaccination is disease ( Vaccine rates are fairly high and stable. Offit - you are spreading misinformation ) but I am not sure it is responsible to voice it. He really seems to want to orchestrate a witch hunt, IMHO. I think his ego (need to be right and to control) might be bringing him to the cusp of being evil.

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#9 of 83 Old 06-04-2014, 08:35 AM
 
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It was extremely clear the interview was longer and only snippets were highlighted, perhaps even out of context. That is speculative - but a common issue with snippets as opposed to full interviews.
.

I read the blog apple linked. Great read, btw, and explains why the blogger agreed to be interviewed and that she knew going in it would be a satire piece and the goal was to make her look foolish. The comment section shows there are definitely context issues. Example:



"Sarah, your statements on the show implied that no amount of evidence could ever convince you that vaccines are safe and effective. Is that truly the case?

Reply

Sarah TheHealthyHomeEconomist June 3, 2014 at 9:13 pm
Actually, that part was edited out to make it look that way. What actually happened is that I told Samantha that if vaccine proponents wanted to convince parents like me that vaccination is safe – the first thing that would need to be done is to conduct a true, clinical trial of vaccinated vs unvaccinated children and assess their overall health."

http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.c....t8PneTmB.dpuf

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#10 of 83 Old 06-04-2014, 09:07 AM
 
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(I can't access the clip but I did read Sarah's blog.)

It's funny how some people treat it like it is a real interview. According to her blog, Sarah knew as do many astute viewers know, that these "interviews" are edited for comic value. And I think that's the point; they are trying to show that the editing of news stories can alter the perspective. It's like that photo of those soldiers in Afghanistan where zoomed in it looks like the soldier is doing something horrible to a prisoner. But when you see the photo in its bigger context, the soldier is actually giving the prisoners water.

But guess what? Even if viewers thought she was a nut job, they are probably googling her and visiting her blog. The more hits, the better her ranking in google. Well played Sarah!
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#11 of 83 Old 06-04-2014, 09:34 AM
 
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this youtube link works in Canada:

(wow, what a gross screen shot…and cool!!!! All I did was cut and paste the address and the video loaded. Now if I can only figure out how to do spellcheck on this new format….)
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#12 of 83 Old 06-04-2014, 11:24 AM
 
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I think the blogger came off just fine. I do wonder why she agreed to do it - though. Probably to get free publicity for her blog - which she did.

I don't think she said above (in blue). People can watch it and decide for themselves.

Samantha Bee kept cutting her off, but she got in a point or two. I liked the one on consensus: the blogger said "consensus by who?" It is an important point as most studies are industry based studies (IIRC) and there is an incredible amount of collateral damage that can happen if you question vaccines.

ETA:

The only quote I could find that hints at what you are saying is "you can line up the doctors from here to down the street and I am still not going to change my mind".
That is the quote. It makes her look very anti-science. There is not a single thing any expert on vaccines can do or say to change her mind.

And I think Ms Bee's response to consensus was much stronger than the blogger's concerns about it. She says something about how a consensus means pretty much everybody.

I still preferred Colbert's take: http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astro...i_science.html
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#13 of 83 Old 06-04-2014, 11:39 AM
 
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That is the quote. It makes her look very anti-science. There is not a single thing any expert on vaccines can do or say to change her mind.

I am intrigued that you jumped from would not change her mind even if she spoke to a large group of doctors to "anti-science"



And I think Ms Bee's response to consensus was much stronger than the blogger's concerns about it. She says something about how a consensus means pretty much everybody.

I thought that was a bit of misinformation. Ms. Bee seemed to be saying that 99.99% of scientists were in agreement with vaccination across the globe and that is not true. Taken individually (which is the only way one should consider vaccines) there isn't agreement on when to offer vaccines or which ones to offer. Consider how many health professionals want to skip the flu vaccine. Unless she has some documentation for it, the 99.99 thing seems to be pulled out of thin air.
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#14 of 83 Old 06-04-2014, 11:45 AM
 
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I thought it was funny because Samantha Bee is funny. I didn't think it was necessarily bad publicity. Anything that gets the message out there that not vaccinating is an option, and that educated people are choosing that, is a good thing, I think.
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Thanks for the link kathymuggle!

I thought Samantha Bee was hysteri-(a)-cal. Paul O did a great job showing the art of ad hominem...or is it poisoning the well? And why is he always in a blue shirt?

As for the consensus point-another logical fallacy-argumentum ad populum.
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#16 of 83 Old 06-04-2014, 09:33 PM - Thread Starter
 
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In my opinion she came across as dogmatic and anti science in the interview.
So she's against studying constellations? Newton's Law of Gravity? Calculating product of inertia? Dissecting flowers? Peering at amoebas on microscope slides? Exploring sedimentary rock layers? Measuring the velocity of tornados? Observing behavioral patterns of elephants? Examining soil samples to determine quality, acidity, and alkalinity?

My, my. That's a lot to deduce from somebody who raises questions about the vaccine program.
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#17 of 83 Old 06-04-2014, 09:46 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Other observations? Yea, Offit's big whopper/misinfo bit about "increasing" opt-outs raised my hair on edge, and the show mistakenly assumed that mumps and pertussis outbreaks were because of the unvaccinated and not vaccine failure.

Ironically, I thought Samantha Bee was unintentionally satirizing Offit when she was running around the city trying to contain an outbreak at Starbucks simply because Sarah ordered tea there. I often wonder if this is exactly the kind of angry-mob hysteria that Offit is trying to create.

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The comparison with climate change denialists was interesting. Apt?
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Not really.

We could make a big list - it could be fun - but at the end of the day the fundamental issue for most non-vaxxers comes down to parents having the right to freely and without coersion decide for themselves what drugs their children will take, barring extreme circumstances. That bears no relationship to climate change.
YES we certainly could, the constant degrading attempts by the PRO side to lump climate change, flat earth, etc with vaccines. Wish the "science" people actually looked into things, like what conservatives vs liberals really are like! but yea, it's just easy to try and push propaganda and repeat the mantra over and over AND over again! Oh those pesky facts!

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I do not think this was a "win" for the NV side.
I was a WIN. I really think sometimes we must have seen two different versions, I certainly saw a WIN! It opened the eyes of many, drove traffic to her site and frankly IMO makes Offit look foolish. Keep pushing the same message and think no one is looking into it.......it's a WIN for the ANTI- side! loved it! Well off, educated and not vacing- many people will sit up and take notice of who is doing this and their reasons behind it, not the opposite!

So much PRO-"science" doesn't seem to be letting in that pesky "history" part, so many seem to be missing!
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As a person/parent who no longer vaccinates and supports a more natural lifestyle approach, I see vaccines/many pharmaceuticals, pesticides/GMOs and oil production all as man-made products created and implemented without complete knowledge of how our bodies/nature really works and with absolute ignorance/denial of the potential for long term damage to the health of us individually, and as a planet.

Apart from maybe starting a class war, I'm not sure how it benefits the PV side to keep bringing up that many non-vaccinators tend to be well educated. Well-educated people are too stupid to read medical literature? What does that say about the post secondary education system then?
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#20 of 83 Old 06-05-2014, 12:21 PM
 
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Ouch!
And I'm pro rights.
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I think it was a mixed bag at best.

If there were any viewers who bothered to look up Sarah's blog, or "herd immunity," and actually read some of the "other side," then that would be a win. Judging by some of the comments on Sarah's blog from even provaxxers who nonetheless admitted grudging respect for her position, there were actually people who did bother to look things up.

But let's face facts, that's not the most likely scenario.

I've seen a number of pro-vax people on FaceBook post this, apparently secure in their knowledge that this gave a shining example of "anti-vax idiocy." They certainly didn't bother to look up Offit's financial conflicts of interest, or challenges to the theory of herd immunity, not to mention the fact that Offit's points were completely untrue.

The more typical viewers saw only Paul Offit labeled as "expert immunologist," and Sarah labeled as "anti-science idiot" who swore that no matter how many scientists told her she was wrong, she wouldn't change her mind, i. And that makes it a loss. Unless you really knew what was going on, he came off as the expert scientist, and she came off as an actress paid to look like an idiot. All it did for the vast unthinking hordes was to reinforce the propaganda.
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#22 of 83 Old 06-05-2014, 12:50 PM
 
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Sadly in these days a good education doesn't necessarily result in good scientific literacy. It's not ok to say reading is hard for example, but "math is hard" is almost a rite of passage among certain groups.

At least that's the perspective from those of us who have been scientifically trained. I'm not sure who to blame, if anyone, but that's the world as I see it.
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#23 of 83 Old 06-05-2014, 12:51 PM
 
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Ps - I haven't had chance to watch the daily show thing yet. Busy at work.
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Sadly in these days a good education doesn't necessarily result in good scientific literacy. It's not ok to say reading is hard for example, but "math is hard" is almost a rite of passage among certain groups.

At least that's the perspective from those of us who have been scientifically trained. I'm not sure who to blame, if anyone, but that's the world as I see it.
This probably deserves a new thread all on its own, but being educated does not make you an expert in everything or in vaccines.

A person with an advanced degree in literature, or history, or math, or engineering or whatever does not make them an expert in vaccines or the immune system. It just doesn't. Simply having a degree does not make you a qualified vaccine expert.

Whether you like Paul Offit or not, he is extremely well educated and intelligent. That doesn't mean he knows how to fly an airplane or fix a car or fix a septic tank.

When the Malaysia airplane first went missing, they didn't just find smart people with any kind of advanced degree when asking for expert theories on what may have happened. People wanted to hear what experts in aviation thought. Not what experts in opthalmology or veterinary medicine thought.

Sorry to go a bit off topic, but this claim that "educated parents are the ones choosing not to vaccinate" is just not impressive, because the overwhelming vast majority of them have no expertise in medicine or vaccines or the immune system or infectious diseases.
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#25 of 83 Old 06-05-2014, 01:29 PM
 
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Sorry PSM, that wasn't meant to be directed at you, lol.

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It certainly doesn't help (history does show this!) that when one groups demonizes another simply to push a propaganda agenda, it's usually doesn't go well in the end.

Going after those who are of higher education and degrade them for the choices they make, that's a play straight out of the bad politician book! Can't run on your record, go after the others and hope they don't look at what is really going on.

Vaccine failure, nope, blame it all on those middle to well off, educated parents not vaccinating instead.

People are catching on here, they are learning of more and more people "they" know (politics are local!) who have reactions, people DO read, they see outbreaks among fully vaccinated......yet one side feels they must go after others instead - not a winning strategy, as history has shown!

and FEAR, that only goes so far too

 

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#27 of 83 Old 06-05-2014, 01:31 PM
 
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Sorry PSM, that wasn't meant to be directed at you, lol.
Was that only meant for others?

 

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Whether you like Paul Offit or not, he is extremely well educated and intelligent. That doesn't mean he knows how to fly an airplane or fix a car or fix a septic tank.
The problem with Paul Offit is, he is NOT an expert on adverse effects of vaccines.

The only reactions he will admit to are allergic reactions. But clearly, there ARE other kinds of severe adverse reactions, like autoimmune reactions, seizure reactions, and paralytic reactions. None of those are standard allergic reactions.

According to both the rheumatologists I've talked with about this, when you introduce into the body a vaccine adjuvant, which is designed to elicit a stronger immune response, you can't control what ELSE the immune system is going to react more strongly to. It's not just the antigen that the immune system will react to. It will react more strongly to everything.

Usually, with a single vaccine, this is not a problem. Or at least, it wasn't a problem often seen when there were only a few vaccines given over a lifetime.

But with so many vaccines, the immune system is being triggered into extra-strong reactions 50 times before kindergarten.

Environmentally, there are many more things to have a reaction to than there were 40 years ago: more artificial ingredients, chemicals, hormones, pesticides, and antibiotics in our foods, more and different kinds of pollution in our air and water, different chemicals in our cleaning products, etc.

Give a child a thimerosal-preserved flu shot along with 3 or 4 aluminum-adjuvanted vaccines, and we really DON'T know what exactly happens.

Remember, the Material Safety Data Sheet for thimerosal says to NEVER mix thimerosal with aluminum.

What happens if they "mix" inside the body?

We don't know, do we?

What if they don't mix, but the immune system has a much stronger-than-normal reaction against the thimerosal? What if the thimerosal has already crossed the blood-brain barrier? What if the aluminum has?

Paul Offit may be extremely well-educated and intelligent, but that doesn't mean that he knows everything about immunology. It certainly doesn't mean he knows about autoimmune reactions. Even rheumatologists, whose entire specialty is autoimmune disorders, admit that there is much that they don't know. And autoimmune disorders are not Offit's specialty.

Since he is someone with absolutely everything to lose if he's made a serious error, it also doesn't mean that he is honest.

Last edited by Taximom5; 06-05-2014 at 02:21 PM. Reason: Fixed wording
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#29 of 83 Old 06-05-2014, 03:38 PM
 
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This probably deserves a new thread all on its own, but being educated does not make you an expert in everything or in vaccines.

A person with an advanced degree in literature, or history, or math, or engineering or whatever does not make them an expert in vaccines or the immune system. It just doesn't. Simply having a degree does not make you a qualified vaccine expert.

Whether you like Paul Offit or not, he is extremely well educated and intelligent. That doesn't mean he knows how to fly an airplane or fix a car or fix a septic tank.

I don't think parents are looking to hang a shingle and open a practice based on reading medical papers about vaccination anymore than parents who read up on childbirth are looking to become ob/gyns. They just want to research their medical choices. And I firmly believe that there are parents that have spent more time reading about vaccination than your average paediatrician and/or GP. And that point only gets reinforced every time I see a doctor on TV saying thimerosal was taken out of the MMR.

IMO, PO is jonesing for the acclaim and celebrity that Salk got. And for all his intelligence and education the best he could come up with was a second edition rotavirus vaccine. And let's face it, if a parent could only afford 5 vaccines, rotavirus would not make that list.
So he just keeps saying controversial stuff to keep his face in the media. Has he treated children with autism? Nope, but that didn't stop him from sticking his beak in and writing a book. But how dare parents take it upon themselves to become informed about a prophylactic medical procedure given to developing infants and children made by pharmaceutical companies fined for a variety of reasons including fraud by the government time and again, right?

PO doesn't know my children and doesn't know our family history. He is in no position to make medical decisions on our behalf no matter how great he thinks he is.
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#30 of 83 Old 06-05-2014, 04:14 PM
 
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I don't think parents are looking to hang a shingle and open a practice based on reading medical papers about vaccination anymore than parents who read up on childbirth are looking to become ob/gyns. They just want to research their medical choices. And I firmly believe that there are parents that have spent more time reading about vaccination than your average paediatrician and/or GP. And that point only gets reinforced every time I see a doctor on TV saying thimerosal was taken out of the MMR.

IMO, PO is jonesing for the acclaim and celebrity that Salk got. And for all his intelligence and education the best he could come up with was a second edition rotavirus vaccine. And let's face it, if a parent could only afford 5 vaccines, rotavirus would not make that list.
So he just keeps saying controversial stuff to keep his face in the media. Has he treated children with autism? Nope, but that didn't stop him from sticking his beak in and writing a book. But how dare parents take it upon themselves to become informed about a prophylactic medical procedure given to developing infants and children made by pharmaceutical companies fined for a variety of reasons including fraud by the government time and again, right?

PO doesn't know my children and doesn't know our family history. He is in no position to make medical decisions on our behalf no matter how great he thinks he is.
First of all, I think your comment is brilliant.

Second of all--I never thought of it that way. It never occurred to me that PO is the inventor of a second-generation vaccine (and one that is apparently no safer than the one it replaced, even though the one it replaced was discontinued because of safety issues).

It never occurred to me that he might be using all these public interviews as publicity stunts of his own, for his own personal reasons.

And honestly, I feel foolish that it never occurred to me.

I just assumed that he was maybe a little misguided, and had this extremely narrow focus (vaccines, particularly HIS vaccine, I suppose) that motivated him to believe that All Vaccines Are Good All The Time For Everyone.

But, come to think of it, his vaccine is one of the least necessary ones on the US schedule. Rotavirus is spread by contaminated feces. Not by sneezes, or droplets, or coughs. By a virus making its way from someone's feces to someone else's mouth.

Sheesh.
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