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#1 of 20 Old 06-18-2014, 12:26 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Consensus?

Is there really a consensus among U.S. physicians supporting the U.S. vaccine schedule? Can anybody provide evidence of this consensus? Is the 99.9% figure an actual, citable fact, or just a figure of speech to advance a cause?

Last I checked, only 15% of all doctors belong to the American Medical Association, so I'm not sure if the answer rests with medical trade groups. Consensus implies unanimity or something very close to it. A majority isn't automatically tantamount to a consensus.

Does anyone have knowledge to share on this issue?

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#2 of 20 Old 06-18-2014, 07:03 PM
 
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Also, is it consensus if a number of physicians are afraid to speak up about problems with vaccines?
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#3 of 20 Old 06-19-2014, 08:33 AM
 
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Yes, fear is an excellent way to suppress and discourage doctors. Who wants to suffer the fate of Wakefield?
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#4 of 20 Old 06-19-2014, 01:06 PM
 
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Is it also a consensus if they are selective about which doctors they "poll"? Chiropractors, Naturopaths, acupuncturists and others who are lumped into the so called quack fields always seem to be underrepresented in these numbers. Some would even claim their expertise does not lie within the scope of knowing enough about vaccines to allow them to comment....so who is included in this 99.9%?
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#5 of 20 Old 06-19-2014, 01:15 PM
 
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This is not from, the USA, but from Switzerland.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...16/5/e623.long

CONCLUSIONS:

"Ninety-three percent of the surveyed physicians agree with the current official vaccination recommendations and would apply them to their own children."

Which means 7% wouldn't.

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#6 of 20 Old 06-19-2014, 01:37 PM
 
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There is lots of good stuff in this article.

https://www.landesbioscience.com/jou...almonHV4-4.pdf

A quote:

"Even among providers identified by vaccinated children, many concerns about vaccine safety, concerns about the scientific cred- ibility of CDC, and misconceptions about the capacity of the immune system were prevalent. For example, 10% of providers of vaccinated children reported that they believed that CDC/ACIP underestimate the risks of vaccines, and nearly 6% believed that they have cared for a child with autism as a result of vaccination."
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#7 of 20 Old 06-19-2014, 01:59 PM
 
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#8 of 20 Old 06-20-2014, 06:23 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by applejuice View Post
It is quite a bit less than Canada or the USA's. No routine hep b, no hep a, no rota, varicella in the teen years if they have not had chicken pox…. It reminds me of the schedule I was on as a baby 40+ years ago.
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There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#9 of 20 Old 06-20-2014, 02:32 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post
This is not from, the USA, but from Switzerland.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...16/5/e623.long

CONCLUSIONS:

"Ninety-three percent of the surveyed physicians agree with the current official vaccination recommendations and would apply them to their own children."

Which means 7% wouldn't.
The rates for pediatricians was higher than that of physicians, which I think is interesting. Pediatricians were also more likely to give their children additional vaccines that weren't on the schedule.

The study concluded:

"In conclusion, 95% of pediatricians practicing in Switzerland immunize, or would immunize, their children according to recommended schedules and vaccines. They give at least as many vaccines to their own child as to their patients (and frequently many more), immunize as early as recommended, and also make a comprehensive use of the most recent combination vaccines. In contrast, a relatively large proportion of nonpediatricians do not follow, nor plan to follow, current immunization recommendations for their own children. Despite their scientific training and education, they express the same concerns as those that prevail in the public. "

It's important to note that this study is 10 years old. Since it stated a lot of the reservations had to do with worries over the MMR causing autism or "too many too soon" type of concerns, I think it's vital to point out that there has been a TON of research and data on those issues in the last 10 years that weren't available at the time this survey was sent out.

I would be very very surprised if those numbers weren't a good deal higher today.

In any case, consensus does not mean unanimous agreement.

"con·sen·sus [kuhn-sen-suhs] Show IPA
noun, plural con·sen·sus·es.

1.majority of opinion"

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/consensus

Do you disagree that 95% is the (vast) majority?

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#10 of 20 Old 06-20-2014, 02:59 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
The rates for pediatricians was higher than that of physicians, which I think is interesting. Pediatricians were also more likely to give their children additional vaccines that weren't on the schedule.

The study concluded:

"In conclusion, 95% of pediatricians practicing in Switzerland immunize, or would immunize, their children according to recommended schedules and vaccines. They give at least as many vaccines to their own child as to their patients (and frequently many more), immunize as early as recommended, and also make a comprehensive use of the most recent combination vaccines. In contrast, a relatively large proportion of nonpediatricians do not follow, nor plan to follow, current immunization recommendations for their own children. Despite their scientific training and education, they express the same concerns as those that prevail in the public. "

It's important to note that this study is 10 years old. Since it stated a lot of the reservations had to do with worries over the MMR causing autism or "too many too soon" type of concerns, I think it's vital to point out that there has been a TON of research and data on those issues in the last 10 years that weren't available at the time this survey was sent out.

I would be very very surprised if those numbers weren't a good deal higher today.

In any case, consensus does not mean unanimous agreement.

"con·sen·sus [kuhn-sen-suhs] Show IPA
noun, plural con·sen·sus·es.

1.majority of opinion"

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/consensus

Do you disagree that 95% is the (vast) majority?
Yeah, that's 95% of pediatricians in SWITZERLAND, where the vaccine schedule is different, health care is different, and government compensation for adverse reaction is different.

Are you trying to convince us that we should make assumptions about "medical consensus" based on one survey in one tiny country that has so many differences with issues related to vaccines?
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#11 of 20 Old 06-20-2014, 03:18 PM
 
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"con·sen·sus [kuhn-sen-suhs] Show IPA
noun, plural con·sen·sus·es.

Hahah, I really needed to know how to pronounce this word.
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#12 of 20 Old 06-20-2014, 04:31 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post

It's important to note that this study is 10 years old. Since it stated a lot of the reservations had to do with worries over the MMR causing autism or "too many too soon" type of concerns, I think it's vital to point out that there has been a TON of research and data on those issues in the last 10 years that weren't available at the time this survey was sent out.

I would be very very surprised if those numbers weren't a good deal higher today.

<cut>

Do you disagree that 95% is the (vast) majority?
I agree the study is 10 years old and info may have changed, but we don't really know. Speculation is not overly helpful. Personally, I would not assume vaccine reservations have changed unless I saw evidence.

I am wondering if you noticed the other link I posted? It is from 2008, USA, and stated the following. Doctors still do have reservations:

"Even among providers identified by vaccinated children, many concerns about vaccine safety, concerns about the scientific cred- ibility of CDC, and misconceptions about the capacity of the immune system were prevalent. For example, 10% of providers of vaccinated children reported that they believed that CDC/ACIP underestimate the risks of vaccines, and nearly 6% believed that they have cared for a child with autism as a result of vaccination."

As per whether or not I think 95% represent the vast majority, I think you are asking the wrong question. Among Swiss doctor of 10 years ago (and I have no issue with anyone discounting it because it is old or from Switzerland) 5-7% of doctors did not follow the schedule. That is HUGE. People on this side of the pond act like the sky is going to fall in when immunisation rates fall fractions of a percentage point - and there is very little tolerance for selective or delayed vaccination (remember the whole - "OMG! I was an accidental anti-vaxxer" quote from Time magazine? (I wonder if he realises he will live in infamy…..))

5-7% of doctors selecting or delaying is way more than doctors want to tolerate in patients, AFAIK. I do not find 5-7% having such significant reservation that they delay or avoid reassuring.

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#13 of 20 Old 06-20-2014, 04:45 PM
 
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I should add that a significant percentage of health care providers either avoid or wish they could avoid flu shots. If anyone has stats handy, that would be great - I am pretty sure it is over 25% and maybe even over 50% in many places.
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There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#14 of 20 Old 06-20-2014, 04:57 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
The rates for pediatricians was higher than that of physicians, which I think is interesting. Pediatricians were also more likely to give their children additional vaccines that weren't on the schedule.

The study concluded:

"In conclusion, 95% of pediatricians practicing in Switzerland immunize, or would immunize, their children according to recommended schedules and vaccines. They give at least as many vaccines to their own child as to their patients (and frequently many more), immunize as early as recommended, and also make a comprehensive use of the most recent combination vaccines. In contrast, a relatively large proportion of nonpediatricians do not follow, nor plan to follow, current immunization recommendations for their own children. Despite their scientific training and education, they express the same concerns as those that prevail in the public. "

It's important to note that this study is 10 years old. Since it stated a lot of the reservations had to do with worries over the MMR causing autism or "too many too soon" type of concerns, I think it's vital to point out that there has been a TON of research and data on those issues in the last 10 years that weren't available at the time this survey was sent out.

I would be very very surprised if those numbers weren't a good deal higher today.

In any case, consensus does not mean unanimous agreement.

"con·sen·sus [kuhn-sen-suhs] Show IPA
noun, plural con·sen·sus·es.

1.majority of opinion"

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/consensus

Do you disagree that 95% is the (vast) majority?
YES, in this case!
Because only 53% of the paediatricians that received the survey completed it and sent it back. It is possible that the number of paediatricians that vaccinate according to schedule is equal to the number of paediatricians that do not vaccinate according to schedule.

Quote:
Questionnaires were sent by e-mail to 2070 Swiss physicians (including 860 pediatricians) registered with InfoVac. After a single e-mail reminder, 1017 valid questionnaires were received (response rate: 49.1%; pediatricians: 53.3%).
Quote:
The results of this study suggest that although 93% of the surveyed physicians agree with current official vaccination recommendations and would apply them to their own children, this opinion is not shared by a significant proportion of nonpediatricians who were twice as likely not to have followed (and, hypothetically, not to follow in 2004) the official recommendations for their own children.
my bold
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Last edited by samaxtics; 06-21-2014 at 06:43 AM.
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#15 of 20 Old 06-20-2014, 08:45 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I should add that a significant percentage of health care providers either avoid or wish they could avoid flu shots. If anyone has stats handy, that would be great - I am pretty sure it is over 25% and maybe even over 50% in many places.
You rang?
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Coldand...6418974&page=1

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#16 of 20 Old 06-20-2014, 09:22 PM
 
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Barf, the way they talk about the flu vax and how great it is.....just ugh! But based on those numbers somewhere around 60% decline. I'd be interested in knowing (not that any study will be done) what percentage opt out yet still push for it in their patients. We know docs who vax themselves will obv push it on their patients. But what about those who opt out? More a personal curiosity there :-)
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#17 of 20 Old 06-21-2014, 07:09 AM
 
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Originally Posted by sassyfirechick View Post
Barf, the way they talk about the flu vax and how great it is.....just ugh! But based on those numbers somewhere around 60% decline. I'd be interested in knowing (not that any study will be done) what percentage opt out yet still push for it in their patients. We know docs who vax themselves will obv push it on their patients. But what about those who opt out? More a personal curiosity there :-)
For those that opt out I think it depends on the environment, i.e. do they have to meet quotas, is it the policy of the group practice, is the doctor ambitious and looking to advance their career?

I'd bet there is a lot of "do as I say, not as I do" going on in medicine and not only with vaccination. Here's one:

Quote:
Most doctors would turn down the option of aggressive treatment if they were terminally ill, a study has found...Yet they tend to pursue aggressive, life-prolonging treatment for patients facing the same prognosis, Stanford University School of Medicine found. However, studies found many patients would prefer to die at home without life-prolonging interventions but are often ignored.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/ar...-patients.html (apologies for the link)

Unwitting guinea pigs I'm afraid.
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#18 of 20 Old 06-21-2014, 10:44 AM
 
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The only method that seems to work to increase the vax rate among health care workers is to threaten their employment.

I don't think it is just fear of needles at play here.
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#19 of 20 Old 06-21-2014, 05:58 PM
 
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The only method that seems to work to increase the vax rate among health care workers is to threaten their employment.

I don't think it is just fear of needles at play here.

I agree.

And in recent news workers at the CDC have been exposed to anthrax due to a "safety-foul up". http://www.medpagetoday.com/Infectio...6423?isalert=1

Quote:
Most of the 54 have been given oral antibiotics or anthrax vaccine or both, he said, while two refused antibiotics and 19 did not want the vaccine.
my bold
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#20 of 20 Old 06-21-2014, 07:59 PM
 
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I agree.

And in recent news workers at the CDC have been exposed to anthrax due to a "safety-foul up". http://www.medpagetoday.com/Infectio...6423?isalert=1

my bold
Quote:
Most of the 54 have been given oral antibiotics or anthrax vaccine or both, he said, while two refused antibiotics and 19 did not want the vaccine.
Those CDC staff must be anti-science. Only anti-science crazies turn down vaccines. <joke!> I'm not really calling anyone crazy, okay?
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