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#31 of 90 Old 06-24-2014, 12:07 PM
 
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Again you have ZERO that points to any Heath/Medical related anything that she is an expert in.
All lawyers are the same to you.

Again, let's remember it's simply her opinion and she has no legislative accomplishments to her name regarding health or medical.

Many lawyers write for journals but it make a difference between being good and being great at what your knowledge is when you have a speciality.
Once again, it's not an opinion. Did you not see the link I posted from the US Supreme Court government website? Or do you not consider that to be a reliable source either?

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#32 of 90 Old 06-24-2014, 01:02 PM
 
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If it's making the news, it means it's rare. Or it wouldn't be news.

Dorit Reiss touched on this a while ago (I know a lot of you don't like her, but she is a legal expert)

"In return for the substantial benefits given plaintiffs, manufacturers are shielded from liability for design defects; but they are not invulnerable: they can still be sued for manufacturing defects or warning defects. This is substantial: the worst vaccine-related disaster in modern history, the Cutter Incident, was the result of a manufacturing defect, not a design defect: a vaccine designed to include an inactivated – dead – virus actually included a live poliovirus, permanently paralyzing 200 children and killing ten. That case could still be brought in the regular courts today."

http://momswhovax.blogspot.com/2013/...pensation.html

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Once again, it's not an opinion. Did you not see the link I posted from the US Supreme Court government website? Or do you not consider that to be a reliable source either?

So what was it that Dorit wrote?

The National Vaccine Compensation Injury Act:
A Compromise – not an Injustice
Or: Why the Latest Video from the Canary Party is Misleading
By Dorit Reiss


A fairytale? You are saying it's not her opinion - who's is it and what is it?
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#33 of 90 Old 06-24-2014, 02:26 PM
 
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So what was it that Dorit wrote?

The National Vaccine Compensation Injury Act:
A Compromise – not an Injustice
Or: Why the Latest Video from the Canary Party is Misleading
By Dorit Reiss


A fairytale? You are saying it's not her opinion - who's is it and what is it?
Maybe you should go back and re read the thread.

We were discussing the cutter incident and whether vaccine manufacturers could be sued if the same thing happened today.

Nothing in the quoted part I posted from Dorit Reiss on that particular point was a matter of opinion.

If you'd like to discuss the entire blog post as a whole, maybe start another thread.

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#34 of 90 Old 06-24-2014, 02:38 PM
 
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Maybe you should go back and re read the thread.

We were discussing the cutter incident and whether vaccine manufacturers could be sued if the same thing happened today. AND you posted a fairytale?

Nothing in the quoted part I posted from Dorit Reiss on that particular point was a matter of opinion.
again, if you claim it not "opinion" what is it that Dorit wrote?

yea, not an "opinion" it really must be a fairytale!!!!!!!!!

You are the one that posted it - I'm simply asking if it's not "opinion" - what is it? I assume you read it?? It's written as an opinion, she express her "thoughts", what is it if it's not her opinion? Are you NOW asserting it's a legal brief?


The video is wrong pretty much from start to finish. This blog post will address three of its problems: the claim that NVICA is the only thing hiding the link between vaccines and autism; the inaccurate, incomplete depiction of NVICP; and why the claim that using the regular courts instead will benefit plaintiffs is wrong.

For the most part it’s a bad idea all around, based on faulty premises.

from the start to the end it's ALL opinion and she is the author of it - a plain and simple "highly opinionated" BLOG post
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#35 of 90 Old 06-27-2014, 06:35 AM
 
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I was looking at something completely different, when this dropped into my lap:

http://globalnews.ca/news/1415002/fd...cturing-plant/ (June 25, 2014)

A few goodies from the article:

"The U.S. regulatory agency noted that since 2011 a total of 60 lots of vaccine from the plant have been rejected due to endotoxin levels that are over a pre-specified limit. Endotoxins are created by bacteria."

"GSK had little to say Tuesday about its regulatory problems."

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#36 of 90 Old 06-27-2014, 09:08 AM
 
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It will be interesting to see how the vaccines are very safe camp are going to explain that away.

MY guess is by repeating vaccines are safe over and over.
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#37 of 90 Old 06-27-2014, 12:25 PM - Thread Starter
 
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They are safe!
They are highly regulated!
Bad batches are pulled!
They are checked all the time!
The system works!

There. All taken care of.
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#38 of 90 Old 06-27-2014, 02:01 PM
 
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Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post
I was looking at something completely different, when this dropped into my lap:

http://globalnews.ca/news/1415002/fd...cturing-plant/ (June 25, 2014)

A few goodies from the article:

"The U.S. regulatory agency noted that since 2011 a total of 60 lots of vaccine from the plant have been rejected due to endotoxin levels that are over a pre-specified limit. Endotoxins are created by bacteria."

"GSK had little to say Tuesday about its regulatory problems."
From the link: "The former bureaucrat noted, though, that each lot of vaccine is tested before it is shipped from the production facility. If a lot exceeds established maximum endotoxin levels it is not released. As such, he said, the public’s health would not have been endangered by the plant’s problems."

So basically, the FDA tests every single batch of vaccines before it leaves the facility and they found a problem with bacterial contamination in some batches before they were ever shipped or used, threatened to revoke their license to sell flu vaccines to the US if they fail to find and fix the problem, and this is supposed to make me conclude that vaccines are poorly regulated, risky, and dangerous?

????

Yeah, I'm not seeing it.

I think your bias is showing here. If this same scenario happened with a batch of car seats, I don't see there being any outrage because, once again, this is the system WORKING. It's not like the vaccine manufacturers deliberately poured arsenic into vaccine vials here. This is why we have a system like the FDA that tests products.

How many recent examples of a vaccine "errors" that caused severe harm or death can you find?

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#39 of 90 Old 06-27-2014, 02:48 PM
 
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From the link: "The former bureaucrat noted, though, that each lot of vaccine is tested before it is shipped from the production facility. If a lot exceeds established maximum endotoxin levels it is not released. As such, he said, the public’s health would not have been endangered by the plant’s problems."
You cherry pick your quotes and I will cherry pick mine


Canada, perhaps due to Harpers austerity measures, has had issues in the last few years with products being contaminated at the factory level. These products have been released to the public - Maple Leaf springs to mind.
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#40 of 90 Old 06-27-2014, 04:31 PM
 
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I think your bias is showing here. If this same scenario happened with a batch of car seats, I don't see there being any outrage because, once again, this is the system WORKING. It's not like the vaccine manufacturers deliberately poured arsenic into vaccine vials here. This is why we have a system like the FDA that tests products.
I have heard this argument before, and I find it simplistic.

Catching fraud, misrepresentation, bacterial contamination etc, is not a sign of the system working. It is not a sign of anything, really, other than the fact that there are issues and that those issues are sometimes caught. It does not show us how often mishaps (mild word) happen or more important, how often these things slip through unnoticed. It would be pretty naive to think nothing ever slips through.

Also….what is the tipping point? And who defines it? Not industry - or anyone with other things to lose (such as credibility). The consumer define tipping point.

Hearing about a one-off with a industry is something many people will look past. Repeated issues are not something everyone will look past. I will not eat lunch meat, for example, too many recalls in Canada in recent years and I do not trust them.

In any event, list of vaccine (and other biologic) recalls from the FDA:

http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVac.../ucm290484.htm

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#41 of 90 Old 06-27-2014, 09:31 PM
 
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I have heard this argument before, and I find it simplistic.

Catching fraud, misrepresentation, bacterial contamination etc, is not a sign of the system working. It is not a sign of anything, really, other than the fact that there are issues and that those issues are sometimes caught.
THANK YOU!

It seems that the standard provax response is that ONE acknowledged problem is somehow proof that ALL problems are acknowledged and dealt with appropriately.
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#42 of 90 Old 06-28-2014, 07:05 AM - Thread Starter
 
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There is plenty of evidence of large-scale pharma fraud. They pay fines and continue on with their "peculiar" practices. I suppose that is more evidence that the system works.
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#43 of 90 Old 06-28-2014, 10:13 AM
 
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I have heard this argument before, and I find it simplistic.

Catching fraud, misrepresentation, bacterial contamination etc, is not a sign of the system working. It is not a sign of anything, really, other than the fact that there are issues and that those issues are sometimes caught. It does not show us how often mishaps (mild word) happen or more important, how often these things slip through unnoticed. It would be pretty naive to think nothing ever slips through.

Also….what is the tipping point? And who defines it? Not industry - or anyone with other things to lose (such as credibility). The consumer define tipping point.

Hearing about a one-off with a industry is something many people will look past. Repeated issues are not something everyone will look past. I will not eat lunch meat, for example, too many recalls in Canada in recent years and I do not trust them.

In any event, list of vaccine (and other biologic) recalls from the FDA:

http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVac.../ucm290484.htm
And I disagree that it's not evidence of the system working. They find and report even minuscule errors and test every batch before they are used.

The fact that no one has been able to show me a recent example of a single vaccine "error" that caused severe harm or death is pretty good evidence that the system is working.

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#44 of 90 Old 06-28-2014, 10:40 AM
 
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The fact that no one has been able to show me a recent example of a single vaccine "error" that caused severe harm or death is pretty good evidence that the system is working.
I haven't searched for one nor will I. I'm sure your definition of severe harm is different than mine so it's a waste of time to try to find something you'll agree with.

Would you like it to be your child that finds that, whoops, manufacturing error? Testing error? Administration error? Storage error? I know the answer. This is the risk that every parent who consents to vaccination *for their child,* takes, along with *them.* These are risks I'm not willing to take.

Vaccines are a trade off, one that is pushed on people as "the answer." We are only beginning to see how complex our bodies are. As we learn more, I predict vaccines, like so many other cure alls, will be used less & less & more specifically, until they are rarely used. It takes way more than just a shot or just 100 shots to be truly healthy, no matter howich anyone wishes that the case, tries to convince someone it is the case, etc. I look forward to that day.

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#45 of 90 Old 06-28-2014, 10:51 AM
 
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And I disagree that it's not evidence of the system working. They find and report even minuscule errors and test every batch before they are used.

The fact that no one has been able to show me a recent example of a single vaccine "error" that caused severe harm or death is pretty good evidence that the system is working.
So you don't think that it's an error in any way, shape, or form, that previously healthy people can react to vaccines with autoimmune attacks, paralysis, seizures, etc., and we don't know why?

It sure sounds like you're saying that the facts that thalidomide caused birth defects, or that smoking caused lung cancer, or that Vioxx caused heart attacks, etc weren't really errors until someone not only caught them, but convinced the government to act on them.

My goodness, the amount of faith you have in the honesty and transparency of our government is really amazing. Do you maintain such faith in all aspects of the government, or just where vaccines are concerned?

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#46 of 90 Old 06-28-2014, 11:15 AM
 
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The fact that no one has been able to show me a recent example of a single vaccine "error" that caused severe harm or death is pretty good evidence that the system is working.
No it's not, lol. It is just evidence that no one on MDC has bothered to look it up- not that it doesn't exist.
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#47 of 90 Old 06-28-2014, 11:16 AM - Thread Starter
 
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There are actually a lot of problems with vaccines. But the system for denying and covering up problems is highly functional.

Consider, for example, GBS. The vaccine court regularly pays out for GBS, but the claim that the number of cases is less than 1 in a million goes merrily on. And such cases don't really count because they aren't officially "science."
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#48 of 90 Old 06-28-2014, 11:22 AM
 
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https://www.ismp.org/Newsletters/acu...cle.aspx?id=64

I thought the above was a good read, and it laid out common types of errors.


"From September 2012 through October 2013, a total of 433 reports were submitted to the ISMP VERP. Most reports (90%) involved vaccine errors that reached patients. The remaining reports were classified as close calls (6%) (errors that happened but did not reach the patient) or hazardous conditions that warrant concern (4%)"
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#49 of 90 Old 06-28-2014, 11:38 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Actually, I can think of two recent vaccine: "errors" that caused some serious problems. Neither occurred in the US, but hey, that is just luck. I don't think our system is any better than Europe or Australia.

1) Flu vaccine resulted in narcolepsy in children in Europe. It was figured out, eventually, but not before a number of pro-vaccine skeptics wore out their keyboards arguing every other possible explanation instead of the vaccine.

2) Flu vaccine resulting in seizures, 1 possible death and 1 permanent disability in toddlers in Australia. The system took way too long to pull the vaccine and, based on this news story, 3 years after the ban some doctors were still giving it to little kids. http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/hea...-1226625009991

Just thought of another situation where the system is failing--the continued push to use the pentavalent vaccine in S.E. Asia despite multiple deaths--WHO has been redefining the way problems are evaluated so that it will be just about impossible to link any incident to a vaccine.

Measles vaccine problems in Pakistan. Lots of finger pointing, but the vaccine continued to be used even after a whole bunch of children got sick and some died.

No. Sorry. I don't think the system for finding problems with vaccines works well in the US or anywhere else.

I can provide links for all of these stories if anyone wants to look at the details.
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#50 of 90 Old 06-29-2014, 10:23 AM
 
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https://www.ismp.org/Newsletters/acu...cle.aspx?id=64

I thought the above was a good read, and it laid out common types of errors.


"From September 2012 through October 2013, a total of 433 reports were submitted to the ISMP VERP. Most reports (90%) involved vaccine errors that reached patients. The remaining reports were classified as close calls (6%) (errors that happened but did not reach the patient) or hazardous conditions that warrant concern (4%)"
Didn't have time to look at that link thoroughly, but from what I saw it didn't look like it wasn't talking about errors with the vaccines themselves, but human errors in administering them. Getting vials mixed up, confusing children with similar names in the waiting room etc.

That's certainly not the fault of the vaccine manufacturers....

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#51 of 90 Old 06-29-2014, 11:09 AM
 
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That's certainly not the fault of the vaccine manufacturers....
So? The topic of this thread is "how common are vaccine errors" not "how common are errors with manufacturing."
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#52 of 90 Old 06-29-2014, 11:24 AM
 
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Another link:
http://www.healthleadersmedia.com/co...ion-Practices#

"His remarks came on the heels of the release of a Premier survey conducted in May and June last year, indicating that of 5,446 provider respondents, the following engage in unsafe injection practices:

6% sometimes or always use single-dose/single-use vials for more than one patient
9% sometimes or always reuse a syringe but change the needle for a second patient
15.1% reuse a syringe to enter a multidose vial
6.5% save that vial for use on another patient."

"In an incident that came to light just two weeks ago<2011>, children in Colorado were exposed to reused syringes when receiving flu vaccinations in an outpatient pediatric clinic. Dozens of families received letters telling them that their child should be tested for bloodborne viruses such as Hepatitis C and HIV, Perz said."

Links are cool, and they certainly show that issues do exist. It would be great to find definitive links that show how often these type of things happen, and how often a bad outcome occurs because of it.

As parents, there may be ways to lessen errors. Make sure the vaccine is the correct one, delivered in the correct manner. Read the package. A lot of common mistake seem to be giving the wrong patient the wrong vaccine - often DTaP versus Tdap.

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#53 of 90 Old 06-29-2014, 05:06 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Yes, to go over it again, this thread is about injuries following vaccine administration which may not be a direct result of the vaccine, but errors having to do with delivery.

I was trying to highlight two problems.

First, because denial of injury from vaccines is very common (people are always sharing stories of screaming babies and doctors saying "normal"), errors that would probably be spotted with other injections might be missed.

Second, the more vaccines being added to the schedule the more risk from administration errors. Nothing medical can be as safe as is claimed for vaccines. Human beings are involved. Human beings make mistakes.

Hundreds of millions of doses of vaccines are delivered into human bodies every year. Every single one involves a risk of injury.
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#54 of 90 Old 06-29-2014, 05:39 PM
 
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Second, the more vaccines being added to the schedule the more risk from administration errors. Nothing medical can be as safe as is claimed for vaccines. Human beings are involved. Human beings make mistakes.

Hundreds of millions of doses of vaccines are delivered into human bodies every year. Every single one involves a risk of injury.
Absolutely. If you look into the links on this thread, you will that the two most common consequences of vaccine adminsitration errors are:

1. The person does not have the vaccine coverage they think they have.

2. The person needs to be re-vaccinated or vaccinated with the vaccine they should have had - which just increases risk, as all vaccines carry risk. So instead of facing a risk once, you get to face it twice.

Ex - if a 6 month old gets a Tdap instead of a DTaP, they need to disregard the tdap and reimmunise. The baby ends up getting an extra dose.

https://publichealth.lacounty.gov/ip...ation10-10.pdf
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I have one. I'm a retail pharmacist and in my state we can administer the flu vaccine to patients 14 and over--for all other shots we're allowed to give, it is 18 and over. Last fall/winter our district had a whole ton of flu vaccine from one particular manufacturer and so obviously we gave a lot of shots of that brand. It turned out this brand of vaccine was not approved for anyone under 18, and there were some 14-17 year olds who got it because pharmacists weren't aware of this. When this came to light we contacted everyone who had gotten the vaccine in what was essentially an off-label fashion, and our employer responded by adding a check to the computer system to prevent us from processing a vaccine if the patient is not the right age for that vaccine.

I think a decent number of med errors are stuff like this that probably didn't really cause much of a problem--this vaccine probably just wasn't studied in younger teenagers, and I have a hard time believing there would be much difference in its activity in a 14-year-old versus an 18-year-old. Though I don't think that excuses it and I am, of course, in favor of reducing med errors wherever possible and by whatever means possible.

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#56 of 90 Old 06-29-2014, 09:26 PM
 
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Absolutely. If you look into the links on this thread, you will that the two most common consequences of vaccine adminsitration errors are:

1. The person does not have the vaccine coverage they think they have.

2. The person needs to be re-vaccinated or vaccinated with the vaccine they should have had - which just increases risk, as all vaccines carry risk. So instead of facing a risk once, you get to face it twice.

Ex - if a 6 month old gets a Tdap instead of a DTaP, they need to disregard the tdap and reimmunise. The baby ends up getting an extra dose.

https://publichealth.lacounty.gov/ip...ation10-10.pdf

I cannot imagine someone mistakenly giving a 6 month old TDaP since it is only licensed for those 10 and over or 100 and over (brand dependent.)

http://www.health.ny.gov/prevention/immunization/tdap_questions_and_answers.htm
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#57 of 90 Old 06-30-2014, 06:14 AM
 
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I cannot imagine someone mistakenly giving a 6 month old TDaP since it is only licensed for those 10 and over or 100 and over (brand dependent.)

http://www.health.ny.gov/prevention/...nd_answers.htm
Link from upthread:

https://www.ismp.org/Newsletters/acu...cle.aspx?id=64
DTaP (DAPTACEL, INFANRIX), Tdap (ADACEL, BOOSTRIX), DTaP-IPV (KINRIX), DTaP-HepB-IPV (PEDIARIX), or DTaP-IPV/Hib (PENTACEL) vaccines

"The dominant issues reported with these vaccines are the same issues that have long been reported to ISMP and FDA—confusion between the different age-dependent formulations and combination products. For example, repeated errors have been reported in which DTaP was administered instead of Tdap, or vice versa. Tdap is intended for older children and adults as a booster, and DTaP is intended for children between 6 weeks and 6 years of age for initial immunization. We have also received numerous reports of children 7 years and older receiving Pediarix (DTaP-HepB-IPV), which is intended for younger children. Complex vaccination schedules have contributed to mistakes with the timing of these vaccines, particularly when children are following an alternate or delayed schedule of immunizations."
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#58 of 90 Old 06-30-2014, 06:31 AM
 
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I cannot imagine someone mistakenly giving a 6 month old TDaP since it is only licensed for those 10 and over or 100 and over (brand dependent.)

http://www.health.ny.gov/prevention/...nd_answers.htm
Seeing as how the incorrect body parts are amputated from people, I'll believe any medical error.

Sus

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#59 of 90 Old 06-30-2014, 07:26 AM
 
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Seeing as how the incorrect body parts are amputated from people, I'll believe any medical error.

Sus
Seems the industry surly feels they DO occur and not just with the TDap! I see given the number of just online industry reports, this happen a LOT!

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Originally Posted by TCMoulton View Post
I cannot imagine someone mistakenly giving a 6 month old TDaP since it is only licensed for those 10 and over or 100 and over (brand dependent.)

http://www.health.ny.gov/prevention/...nd_answers.htm

I can imagine it occur and often too, I don't think they wants us to really know the full extent!

http://www.immunize.org/technically-...g/20130301.asp

http://www.immunize.org/express/issue800.asp

http://www.immunize.org/askexperts/experts_diph.asp
Someone gave Tdap to an infant instead of DTaP. Now what should be done?
If Tdap was inadvertently administered to a child under age 7 years, it should not be counted as either the first, second, or third dose of DTaP. The dose should be repeated with DTaP. Continue vaccinating on schedule. If the dose of Tdap was administered for the fourth or fifth DTaP dose, the Tdap dose can be counted as valid. Please remind your staff to always check the vaccine vial at least 3 times before administering any vaccine.


https://publichealth.lacounty.gov/ip...ation10-10.pdf gee, it was even a question! Our clinic saw a 6-month-old baby who was due for her third DTaP vaccine dose. We accidentally administered Tdap vaccine instead of DTaP vaccine. Was this safe? What are your recommendations for follow-up?


http://www.healio.com/pediatrics/new...name-confusion
Reports of confusion and inappropriate product use or administration have also occurred with other vaccine products.

first reported in 2006 http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/726330

2011 - http://www.salon.com/2011/07/20/wrong_vaccine/ http://www.theguardian.com/society/2...isation-mixups
2012 - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/ar...ng-doctor.html
2013 - https://www.ismp.org/Newsletters/acu...cle.aspx?id=64 nice BIG section on DTap
DTaP (DAPTACEL, INFANRIX), Tdap (ADACEL, BOOSTRIX), DTaP-IPV (KINRIX), DTaP-HepB-IPV (PEDIARIX), or DTaP-IPV/Hib (PENTACEL) vaccines

The dominant issues reported with these vaccines are the same issues that have long been reported to ISMP and FDA—confusion between the different age-dependent formulations and combination products.
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#60 of 90 Old 06-30-2014, 08:25 AM - Thread Starter
 
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One of the most dangerous errors, and hardest to spot, is re-use of needles. This can easily spread disease, but connecting the illness to a vaccine needle re-use would be hard unless someone knew that something had been done incorrectly.

From the stats given in one of the posts above, it isn't uncommon, even in the US.
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