How common are vaccination errors? - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 90 Old 06-21-2014, 08:28 PM - Thread Starter
 
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How common are vaccination errors?

For example, doctors are still giving toddlers a flu vaccine years after the vaccine was pulled for children under 5. http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/b...-1226957868071
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#2 of 90 Old 06-21-2014, 08:33 PM - Thread Starter
 
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This one is specifically about injection errors, including problems with delivering vaccines. http://www.healthleadersmedia.com/co...on-Practices##
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#3 of 90 Old 06-22-2014, 07:54 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Even if vaccinations were perfectly safe, injection errors and other vaccine related errors (wrong vaccine, for example) would add up to a fair number of injuries every year. The fact that so few are reported is worrisome. We are talking about millions and millions of vaccines administered in a variety of settings by people with varying degrees of skill and conscientiousness.

I think this is pretty good evidence that vaccine related problems are consistently denied or covered up.
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#4 of 90 Old 06-22-2014, 09:27 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Deborah View Post
This one is specifically about injection errors, including problems with delivering vaccines. http://www.healthleadersmedia.com/co...on-Practices##
From your link:
Quote:
a Premier survey conducted in May and June last year, indicating that of 5,446 provider respondents, the following engage in unsafe injection practices:

6% sometimes or always use single-dose/single-use vials for more than one patient
9% sometimes or always reuse a syringe but change the needle for a second patient
15.1% reuse a syringe to enter a multidose vial
6.5% save that vial for use on another patient.
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#5 of 90 Old 06-22-2014, 10:03 AM
 
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And then there are those practices that are not storing vaccines properly:

Quote:
Although the majority of storage temperatures we independently measured during a 2-week period were within the required ranges, VFC vaccines stored by 76 percent of the 45 selected providers were exposed to inappropriate temperatures for at least 5 cumulative hours during that period. Exposure to inappropriate temperatures can reduce vaccine potency and efficacy, increasing the risk that children are not provided with maximum protection against preventable diseases. Thirteen providers stored expired vaccines together with nonexpired vaccines, increasing the risk of mistakenly administering the expired vaccine. Finally, the selected providers generally did not meet vaccine management requirements or maintain required documentation.
http://oig.hhs.gov/oei/reports/oei-04-10-00430.pdf

And then there is the issue of glass shards found in the vials of Gardasil:
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/hpv-vacc...in-some-vials/

And charred bits of shrink wrap
Quote:
...FDA investigation exposing the discovery of charred bits of plastic shrink wrap in vials of vaccines made at a plant in West Point, Pa.
According to the Dow Jones Newswires the contaminated vaccines include Gardasil for the prevention of HPV infection, Varivax for chicken pox, Pneumovax for pneumococcal disease, Zostavax for shingles and MMR II for measles, mumps and rubella.
http://sanevax.org/honey-i-shrink-wr...ows-otherwise/

Here is a link to see what vaccines etc have been recalled through the years: http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVac...ls/default.htm
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#6 of 90 Old 06-23-2014, 09:23 AM
 
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And then there are those practices that are not storing vaccines properly:

http://oig.hhs.gov/oei/reports/oei-04-10-00430.pdf

And then there is the issue of glass shards found in the vials of Gardasil:
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/hpv-vacc...in-some-vials/

And charred bits of shrink wrap
http://sanevax.org/honey-i-shrink-wr...ows-otherwise/

Here is a link to see what vaccines etc have been recalled through the years: http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVac...ls/default.htm

I disagree that these are hidden. The glass shards incident was all over the news when it happened, your own link is to CBS, a major news channel.

Just three days ago I saw an article about a 3 month old baby who was accidentally given the MMR vaccine. (The baby is fine, the main concern about giving a baby the MMR under 1 is that the vaccine is not as effective)

Yesterday, I saw an article about over 100,000 dollars worth of vaccines being lost after a fridge failed.

These are examples of the system working. Vaccines are monitored extremely closely, and that these issues were found shows that.

I would be a lot more worried if they had never found any error at all. THAT would be a lot more indicative of a cover up, since we expect there to be human/mechanical error in any product that is made in the quantities that vaccines are.

Cars sometimes have faulty parts that cause deaths, something that I haven't seen a faulty vaccine error do since the cutter incident. Yet most of us still drive with our children in the car don't we?

When my son was a baby is seemed like every week a new baby product was being recalled. Strollers were cutting fingers off, the bumbo chair, a baby travel sleeping tent we bought was recalled because a 6 month old suffocated after getting trapped, car seats were recalled, several cribs were recalled etc etc.

Again, this is evidence of the system working well. A lot of times you just aren't going to find these problems until millions of people start using them.

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#7 of 90 Old 06-23-2014, 09:56 AM
 
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Those are the incidents in which they were caught. I am not reading much in the news about the whistle blower lawsuit against Merck for falsifying effectiveness stats for the MMR vaccine to the FDA even though there are measles and mumps outbreaks in fully vaccinated populations.

The government, NIH, FDA, CDC, AAP, drug companies, school districts, public health departments, and CPS are not mandating the sale of strollers, cars, bumbo chairs, cribs, or sleeping tents.

A parent can have a baby without buying, using, or owning any of these products.

But a parent who simply questions the practice of vaccination is labeled a kook, though SCOTUS and the drug companies know that vaccines are unavoidably unsafe.

The war on nonvaxers is working so well, that the tactics are being used in the war to promote GMOs and shut down any discussion to the contrary, despite the EU, an entire continent, banning GMOs.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ken-ro...od-for-thought
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#8 of 90 Old 06-23-2014, 10:19 AM
 
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Those are the incidents in which they were caught. I am not reading much in the news about the whistle blower lawsuit against Merck for falsifying effectiveness stats for the MMR vaccine to the FDA even though there are measles and mumps outbreaks in fully vaccinated populations.

The government, NIH, FDA, CDC, AAP, drug companies, school districts, public health departments, and CPS are not mandating the sale of strollers, cars, bumbo chairs, cribs, or sleeping tents.

A parent can have a baby without buying, using, or owning any of these products.

But a parent who simply questions the practice of vaccination is labeled a kook, though SCOTUS and the drug companies know that vaccines are unavoidably unsafe.
A parent can have a baby without getting a single vaccine, too. No ons is coming into your home and holding your children down and vaccinating them.

Plus, in the US at least, car seats/booster seats are mandated. No one is making you drive, but what child in the US reaches age 8 without ever having ridden in a car? It's not feasible for the vast majority of people to never need a car or booster seat.

The point was more about how we evaluate risk. Most people aren't going to say they're never going to buy a baby product ever again or refuse to let their child ride in a car until age 8 just because there are cases where these products have been faulty.

But to answer the OP, I don't think vaccine errors are all that common, and I certainly don't think vaccine errors which have caused severe harm or death are common at all.

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#9 of 90 Old 06-23-2014, 10:28 AM
 
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My uncle died of a vaccine reaction and it is duly cited and noted on his death certificate by the doctor who gave it to him.

If you think no one is coming to your house to make sure your child is vaccinated, think again. Obamacare allows for home visits. Currently, the protocol in all doctors' offices is to have the parent sign for the vaccine after a cursory reading of a information pamphlet and then holding the child down to receive the vaccine, thereby making the parent complicit in the consent to the administration of the vaccine.

AS long as doctors, nurse, drug companies and vaccine court downplay any vaccine error or adverse event, all vaccines are unavoidably unsafe and are the ONLY manufactured product in this world to be protected by governments with a special court system of finding damage and injury through a no-fault system of jurisprudence in which the injured is on trial to prove damages.

As far as carseats and seatbelts are concerned, have you had your pediatrician or school administrator or CPS social worker examine your car and sign you off before allowing you to drive away or register in school? It happens, especially at hospitals, but very infrequently.

Furthermore, if a seatbelt, carseat, crib, stroller did cause injury to a child, a parent can take their case to civil court and get compensation. Not so with vaccines since 1986. Yet, we as parents are forced to give our children vaccines or be ridiculed by doctors, fired from pediatric practices, investigated by CPS, shunned by schools and harassed by healthcare providers. Do not tell me it does not happen or is infrequent because it is the story of my life and I know it well.
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#10 of 90 Old 06-23-2014, 10:44 AM
 
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My uncle died of a vaccine reaction and it is duly cited and noted on his death certificate by the doctor who gave it to him.

If you think no one is coming to your house to make sure your child is vaccinated, think again. Obamacare allows for home visits. Currently, the protocol in all doctors' offices is to have the parent sign for the vaccine after a cursory reading of a information pamphlet and then holding the child down to receive the vaccine, thereby making the parent complicit in the consent to the administration of the vaccine.

AS long as doctors, nurse, drug companies and vaccine court downplay any vaccine error or adverse event, all vaccines are unavoidably unsafe and are the ONLY manufactured product in this world to be protected by governments with a special court system of finding damage and injury through a no-fault system of jurisprudence in which the injured is on trial to prove damages.

As far as carseats and seatbelts are concerned, have you had your pediatrician or school administrator or CPS social worker examine your car and sign you off before allowing you to drive away or register in school? It happens, especially at hospitals, but very infrequently.
A vaccine reaction is not the same thing as a faulty vaccine. The cutter incident is an example of a faulty vaccine causing injury. If the cutter incident were to happen tomorrow, people could absolutely sue the vaccine company. Thats an example of negligence, and is not what the vaccine court protects them from getting sued from.

Yes babies can be held down to get a vaccine with the parent's consent. I meant they don't do that without parental consent. Except maybe in rare circumstances where the courts have ruled against the parent. Like a hep b vaccine for a newborn whose mother is positive, or a rabies vaccine for a child who was bit by an animal thought to have rabies. I don't know of any specific examples of this happening, but it theoretically could.

Maybe things have changed since you had children, but hospitals absolutely check and make sure you have an infant car seat before letting you drive home. They ask how you are getting home, and if you say car, you are required to have a car seat by law.

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#11 of 90 Old 06-23-2014, 10:49 AM
 
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I disagree that these are hidden. I didn't say these were hidden.The glass shards incident was all over the news when it happened, your own link is to CBS, a major news channel.

Just three days ago I saw an article about a 3 month old baby who was accidentally given the MMR vaccine. (The baby is fine, You mean the baby is fine NOW. The future health of this child remains to be seen. If contracting the measles before age 1 puts a child at higher risk for SSPE, how safe can a vaccine containing 3 live (albeit weakened viruses) be? the main concern about giving a baby the MMR under 1 is that the vaccine is not as effective) The main concern, not the only concern

Yesterday, I saw an article about over 100,000 dollars worth of vaccines being lost after a fridge failed. Again, I didn't say these were hidden.

These are examples of the system working. Vaccines are monitored extremely closely, and that these issues were found shows that.

I would be a lot more worried if they had never found any error at all. THAT would be a lot more indicative of a cover up, since we expect there to be human/mechanical error in any product that is made in the quantities that vaccines are.

Cars sometimes have faulty parts that cause deaths, something that I haven't seen a faulty vaccine error do since the cutter incident. Yet most of us still drive with our children in the car don't we? Children go in the car, the car doesn't go into children. Love those car analogies!

When my son was a baby is seemed like every week a new baby product was being recalled. Strollers were cutting fingers off, the bumbo chair, a baby travel sleeping tent we bought was recalled because a 6 month old suffocated after getting trapped, car seats were recalled, several cribs were recalled etc etc.

Again, this is evidence of the system working well. A lot of times you just aren't going to find these problems until millions of people start using them.
And what investment did the government have in those products similar to the way it does with vaccines? And by Cutter incident, are you talking about the polio vaccine or the AIDS tainted blood clotting product that they knowingly sold to other countries to use up the stock?

Quote:
Even so, (FDA blood regulator) Dr. Meyer asked that the issue be "quietly solved without alerting the Congress, the medical community and the public," according to Cutter's account of the 1985 meeting. Dr. Meyer said later that he could not recall making that statement, but another blood-product company's summary of the meeting also noted that the F.D.A. wanted the matter settled "quickly and quietly."
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/22/bu...m&pagewanted=2
my bold
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#12 of 90 Old 06-23-2014, 11:08 AM
 
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Yes babies can be held down to get a vaccine with the parent's consent. I meant they don't do that without parental consent. Except maybe in rare circumstances where the courts have ruled against the parent. Like a hep b vaccine for a newborn whose mother is positive,
Babies are held down with or without parents' consent. The mother does not have to be Hep B positive to have her child forcefully taken from her and given the Hep B; all a parent has to do is to ask questions ...

http://hslda.org/hs/state/pa/201203270.asp
http://www.offthegridnews.com/2014/0...-lose-custody/

And these are not rare circumstances. It happens everyday; most parents just want to put the embarrassment behind them and get on with the business of parenting.

And your statement about Cutter ...

Quote:
If the cutter incident were to happen tomorrow, people could absolutely sue the vaccine company.
... is absolutely wrong. If you read the book The Cutter Incident by Dr Paul Offit, he argues in that book that compensation should NEVER have been offered in the 1950s to the victims of this vaccine. If it happened tomorrow, the parents would be off to Federal Vaccine Court for the next 20 yrs.
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#13 of 90 Old 06-23-2014, 12:15 PM
 
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Babies are held down with or without parents' consent. The mother does not have to be Hep B positive to have her child forcefully taken from her and given the Hep B; all a parent has to do is to ask questions ...

http://hslda.org/hs/state/pa/201203270.asp
http://www.offthegridnews.com/2014/0...-lose-custody/

And these are not rare circumstances. It happens everyday; most parents just want to put the embarrassment behind them and get on with the business of parenting.

And your statement about Cutter ...



... is absolutely wrong. If you read the book The Cutter Incident by Dr Paul Offit, he argues in that book that compensation should NEVER have been offered in the 1950s to the victims of this vaccine. If it happened tomorrow, the parents would be off to Federal Vaccine Court for the next 20 yrs.
If it's making the news, it means it's rare. Or it wouldn't be news.

I believe we've talked about these cases before. We are generally only hearing one side's story in these cases due to HIPAA.

Is there a court update on this case? The latest thing I found was from 2012 I believe.

The cutter incident was a manufacturing defect, and vaccine manufacturers are not protected from these. Dorit Reiss touched on this a while ago (I know a lot of you don't like her, but she is a legal expert)

"In return for the substantial benefits given plaintiffs, manufacturers are shielded from liability for design defects; but they are not invulnerable: they can still be sued for manufacturing defects or warning defects. This is substantial: the worst vaccine-related disaster in modern history, the Cutter Incident, was the result of a manufacturing defect, not a design defect: a vaccine designed to include an inactivated – dead – virus actually included a live poliovirus, permanently paralyzing 200 children and killing ten. That case could still be brought in the regular courts today."

http://momswhovax.blogspot.com/2013/...pensation.html

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If it's making the news, it means it's rare. Or it wouldn't be news.

I believe we've talked about these cases before. We are generally only hearing one side's story in these cases due to HIPAA.

Dorit Reiss touched on this a while ago (I know a lot of you don't like her, but she is a legal expert)


http://momswhovax.blogspot.com/2013/...pensation.html
By the way, most of these cases settle with a gage order when the institution's insurance company has to pay out.

You take your advise on vaccines based on what a Law Professor, with ZERO medical credentials has to say about vaccines?

Do don't take advise from actors like Jenny Mc Carthy, correct?...... but Penn and Teller are OK? So confusing and comes off as so bias.
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#15 of 90 Old 06-23-2014, 01:44 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Injection errors do happen, wrong vaccines are given, extra doses are given. But if something involves a vaccine I seriously think that the problem is more likely to be denied, smoothed over or covered up. Or called a coincidence.

The statement: "vaccines are very safe" immediately encourages everyone to discount anything that happens following vaccination as connected with vaccination. This includes doctors, nurses, other medical staff and parents.

Let us say that serious problems due to injection errors occur once in 10,000 injections (judging by the documents I posted it is more than that) and we have roughly 4 million babies born each year in the US. The majority will get 5 or 6 vaccine doses at each well baby visit, so we are looking at say 15 injections by age 6 months. That would mean 6000 serious problems from injection errors among the 4 million babies. Are all of these problems easily connected to the vaccine or are some denied or covered up?

I note that the news blackout on the Merck whistleblower case, an obvious problem with a defective vaccine, isn't a concern.
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#16 of 90 Old 06-23-2014, 02:03 PM
 
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Injection errors do happen, wrong vaccines are given, extra doses are given. But if something involves a vaccine I seriously think that the problem is more likely to be denied, smoothed over or covered up. Or called a coincidence.

The statement: "vaccines are very safe" immediately encourages everyone to discount anything that happens following vaccination as connected with vaccination. This includes doctors, nurses, other medical staff and parents.

Let us say that serious problems due to injection errors occur once in 10,000 injections (judging by the documents I posted it is more than that) and we have roughly 4 million babies born each year in the US. The majority will get 5 or 6 vaccine doses at each well baby visit, so we are looking at say 15 injections by age 6 months. That would mean 6000 serious problems from injection errors among the 4 million babies. Are all of these problems easily connected to the vaccine or are some denied or covered up?

I note that the news blackout on the Merck whistleblower case, an obvious problem with a defective vaccine, isn't a concern.
Like I said, I disagree that vaccine errors are being covered up.

As for the Merck case, putting in "Merck whistleblower" into google comes up with a Forbes article as the first link. I'd hardly call that a cover up.

This is the article: http://www.forbes.com/sites/gerganak...e-of-vaccines/

Merck has said the lawsuit is without merit. From the link:

"In a statement, a spokesman for Merck said the lawsuit is without merit and the company intends to vigorously defend itself in court. He noted the vaccine’s ability to prevent disease remains the same, and reiterated that MMR-II continues to be recommended for routine administration to childen by public health authorities around the world.

“Nothing is more important to Merck than the safety and effectiveness of our vaccines and medicines and the people who use them. It’s important to understand that none of the allegations in the complaint relate to the safety of MMR-II, and we remain confident that MMR-II helps protect against measles, mumps and rubella as described in the labeling for the vaccine,” the spokesman said."

As far as I'm aware, there hasn't been a ruling on the case yet. Thankfully in this country, people are innocent until proven guilty.

The article makes some good points, definitely worth the read

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By the way, most of these cases settle with a gage order when the institution's insurance company has to pay out.

You take your advise on vaccines based on what a Law Professor, with ZERO medical credentials has to say about vaccines?

Do don't take advise from actors like Jenny Mc Carthy, correct?...... but Penn and Teller are OK? So confusing and comes off as so bias.
??

The quote did not contain any advice about vaccines. It was about the legal aspects of the vaccine court, and she is an expert in law.

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If it's making the news, it means it's rare. Or it wouldn't be news.
That is not true. I hope you never learn the hard way.

Quote:
Thankfully in this country, people are innocent until proven guilty.
Your naivete is showing here. Innocent until proven guilty ONLY applies to criminal law. In family court and civil court, it is a preponderance of evidence. And in vaccine court, there is an entirely different burden of proof on the plaintiff, and the judges work for the defendant. You have a lot to learn, and that is very sad.
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#19 of 90 Old 06-23-2014, 03:32 PM
 
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That is not true. I hope you never learn the hard way.

Learn what the hard way?



Your naivete is showing here. Innocent until proven guilty ONLY applies to criminal law. In family court and civil court, it is a preponderance of evidence. And in vaccine court, there is an entirely different burden of proof on the plaintiff, and the judges work for the defendant. You have a lot to learn, and that is very sad.
I didn't mean in a strictly legal sense. The point was that NVers seem to think this "whistleblower" is some kind of definitive evidence, and it isn't. The allegations aren't true just because some whistleblowers say it is. Merck has fervently denied them. The onus is on the whistleblowers to prove it, not on Merck. Hence, they are not "guilty"(again, not using the literal legal term here) of these accusations until it is ruled as such.

Additionally, you're wrong about manufacturers not being held liable in the event of a "cutter incident" scenario. It was a manufacturing defect, not a design defect, and therefore eligible.

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#20 of 90 Old 06-23-2014, 04:53 PM
 
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??

The quote did not contain any advice about vaccines. It was about the legal aspects of the vaccine court, and she is an expert in law.
http://www.uchastings.edu/academics/...ltybios/reiss/


Are you saying she is a vaccine expert that can deal with vaccine laws? And just what vaccine laws would you be talking about?

What you quoted IMO is totally irrelevant to this discussion. It is simply is HER opinion on something she had no hand in, HER interpretation. She has NO medical credentials - ZERO.

I see she does not sit as a judge, she had not tried, litigated, etc any case that appeared before VAERS. So what makes any of her "opinion" regarding vaccines cases or their judgements and the related vaccine cases relevant?

According to her bio she doesn't even mention any medical related work at all. Everything is "public" that deals with law so I don't see she is an expert as you claim to speak about the vaccine court.

I know several lawyers and you know what? NONE of them have any medical background, they call experts when they need to, and when they talk (express their opinion) it is in relationship to actual work they have done. Some deal with estates, some are criminal defense, some even malpractice, some are other types of law specialists.

Do you have evidence of your claims she has vaccine court experience, laws she has helped in act, etc - PLEASE share this?

How odd if one is SUCH the EXPERT on medial/vaccine related law she doesn't even bother to mention it in her profile.


ETA- by the way, if I was injured it was medical related, I certainly would not seek out a lawyer that who has experience dealing with "public utilities", I would go with one who actually has done REAL case work (not clerking either) with malpractice for starters, but yea that might just be me! All "law" actually is not the same, there are REAL experts and there are wannabes!
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#21 of 90 Old 06-23-2014, 06:28 PM
 
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I didn't mean in a strictly legal sense. The point was that NVers seem to think this "whistleblower" is some kind of definitive evidence, and it isn't. The allegations aren't true just because some whistleblowers say it is. Merck has fervently denied them. The onus is on the whistleblowers to prove it, not on Merck. Hence, they are not "guilty"(again, not using the literal legal term here) of these accusations until it is ruled as such.
I'm sure you're crossing your fingers that Merck is innocent.

These accusations are detailed and pretty serious. My guess is through only an elaborate conspiracy would whistleblowers fabricate these charges. Have you read them? Mike Adams was kind enough to upload them.

http://www.naturalnews.com/gallery/d...erck-Mumps.pdf

All of this would certainly provide a plausible explanation for this vaccine's egregious track record in recent outbreaks.

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#22 of 90 Old 06-23-2014, 06:32 PM
 
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Serenbat, my understanding is the Dorit Reiss is a professor at a law school but not actually licensed to practice in the U.S. I could be wrong, however, but I seem to remember her saying that in one of her thousands of online comments.
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#23 of 90 Old 06-23-2014, 06:52 PM
 
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Serenbat, my understanding is the Dorit Reiss is a professor at a law school but not actually licensed to practice in the U.S. I could be wrong, however, but I seem to remember her saying that in one of her thousands of online comments.
My understanding as well, perhaps Teacozy will fill us in???

Her (Dorit's) bio also does not show any foreign experience as I stated related in anyway to vaccines or any thing medical at all, yet it has not stopped her from commenting on judgments related to vaccines within the US or interpretations of US vaccine related matters.

IF one of us presented someone with ZERO related qualifications on vaccines we would be accused of all sorts of things as how it's irrelevant that person is!

There are MANY types of law in the US and there are actual experts in chosen fields of such laws. Again, seems so odd that IF one is an expert in Health Law they would surely state that on their bio and be proud of it, at least one would think so.

Here for those who doesn't understand - http://brown.edu/academics/college/a...law/fields-law

Health law is an evolving field that focuses on legislation related to health care. Health law attorneys may represent patients, clinics, insurance companies, or individual health practitioners. The federal government employs attorneys in this field to oversee the crafting, implementation, and enforcement of policies. Health law specialists also work at academic institutions and biotechnology and pharmaceutical companies.
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#24 of 90 Old 06-23-2014, 07:09 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I've actually got access to more documents on the whistleblower case, when I have time I'll post them. Merck argues that the case is without merit, but in their application to have the case thrown out they don't actually deny any of the allegations of the whistleblowers (interesting, right?), instead they argue that the ex-employees don't have legal standing to bring the case they brought.

However, the Department of Justice filed an argument against Merck's argument, stating clearly that they are absolutely sure that the whistleblowers do have standing.

Very fun stuff.

I'll start a separate thread. It would be good for people to read something besides Forbes. They are not a very good source...
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#25 of 90 Old 06-24-2014, 05:02 AM
 
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I've actually got access to more documents on the whistleblower case, when I have time I'll post them. Merck argues that the case is without merit, but in their application to have the case thrown out they don't actually deny any of the allegations of the whistleblowers (interesting, right?), instead they argue that the ex-employees don't have legal standing to bring the case they brought.

However, the Department of Justice filed an argument against Merck's argument, stating clearly that they are absolutely sure that the whistleblowers do have standing.

Very fun stuff.

I'll start a separate thread. It would be good for people to read something besides Forbes. They are not a very good source...
I can't wait to read! I do agree it might need it's own thread!!!!
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#26 of 90 Old 06-24-2014, 08:46 AM
 
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My understanding as well, perhaps Teacozy will fill us in???

Her (Dorit's) bio also does not show any foreign experience as I stated related in anyway to vaccines or any thing medical at all, yet it has not stopped her from commenting on judgments related to vaccines within the US or interpretations of US vaccine related matters.

IF one of us presented someone with ZERO related qualifications on vaccines we would be accused of all sorts of things as how it's irrelevant that person is!

There are MANY types of law in the US and there are actual experts in chosen fields of such laws. Again, seems so odd that IF one is an expert in Health Law they would surely state that on their bio and be proud of it, at least one would think so.

Here for those who doesn't understand - http://brown.edu/academics/college/a...law/fields-law

Health law is an evolving field that focuses on legislation related to health care. Health law attorneys may represent patients, clinics, insurance companies, or individual health practitioners. The federal government employs attorneys in this field to oversee the crafting, implementation, and enforcement of policies. Health law specialists also work at academic institutions and biotechnology and pharmaceutical companies.
Once again, she was talking about the legal aspect of the vaccine court. You don't have to be an immunologist to interpret the legal aspects of the vaccine court, indeed I would argue that they are not experts in the law at all. This argument simply doesn't making any sense. Does a lawyer have to be an expert in convenience stores to tell you that going into one with a gun demanding money is against the law?

In any case, the information is extremely easy to find online. Here is the supreme court ruling Bruesewitz vs Wyeth. http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/10pdf/09-152.pdf

It won't let me copy and paste, but the relevant part is at the bottom of page 31 and top of page 32. It says "...clause requires that a vaccine manufacturer in each civil action to demonstrate that its vaccine is free from manufacturing and labeling defects to fall within the liability exemption."

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#27 of 90 Old 06-24-2014, 09:26 AM
 
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... and if a manufacturer tells their workers to fudge the numbers, there is nothing to worry about, especially if the judges are collecting a retirement from the same drug company.

There is a book in the works that reveals just how fair the vaccine court operations are. Enquiring minds will want to know.
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#28 of 90 Old 06-24-2014, 09:58 AM
 
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Once again, she was talking about the legal aspect of the vaccine court. You don't have to be an immunologist to interpret the legal aspects of the vaccine court, indeed I would argue that they are not experts in the law at all. This argument simply doesn't making any sense. Does a lawyer have to be an expert in convenience stores to tell you that going into one with a gun demanding money is against the law?

Yea actually they do! If you get caught and are facing criminal charge you DO need a lawyer that deal with what you are dealing with - so bottom line is still YES! IF you need a PD in my state they don't give you a paten lawyer.


Giving you argument here that ALL lawyer are the same, I NOW assume all parents too must be the same too - have a child, it has a reaction, YES you are just as equal to be the judge of that reaction!

In the real world, MOST people do look to actual people with ACTUAL experience to respect. Need a lawyer to handle a criminal case you don't use an estate or paten or some other unrelated type to defend you. Same with my DH's ear, nose and throat guy, he's GREAT, medical degree and all...... but I don't want or use him as my OB.



Apparently you can't name one thing related to Health or Medical that Dori has ANY experience with. ZERO. So now people with no experience in the related area/field are experts - good to know!



By the way...... It should not take a lawyer to tell anyone that going into a store/shop, etc with a gun isn't a smart idea! Heck most MOMS know that too!!
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#29 of 90 Old 06-24-2014, 10:30 AM
 
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Yea actually they do! If you get caught and are facing criminal charge you DO need a lawyer that deal with what you are dealing with - so bottom line is still YES! IF you need a PD in my state they don't give you a paten lawyer.


Giving you argument here that ALL lawyer are the same, I NOW assume all parents too must be the same too - have a child, it has a reaction, YES you are just as equal to be the judge of that reaction!

In the real world, MOST people do look to actual people with ACTUAL experience to respect. Need a lawyer to handle a criminal case you don't use an estate or paten or some other unrelated type to defend you. Same with my DH's ear, nose and throat guy, he's GREAT, medical degree and all...... but I don't want or use him as my OB.



Apparently you can't name one thing related to Health or Medical that Dori has ANY experience with. ZERO. So now people with no experience in the related area/field are experts - good to know!
Again, you aren't making sense.

You linked to her page at UC Hastings. Did you not read it? Because if you did you would see that she TEACHES tort law. She also writes extensively in law journals about the social and legal policies of vaccination.

I thought it was implied that I meant she was a legal expert in the piece I linked and quoted. She is not an expert in every aspect of the law, clearly. But your claim was that since she is not a medical expert in vaccines her "opinion" wasn't valid. First of all, it's not a matter of opinion that vaccine manufacturers are not exempt from liability due to manufacturing defects. That's a legal fact. Second, the analogy makes no sense. A criminal defense attorney does not have to be a firearm expert or an expert in convenience stores to tell you that walking into a gas station and pointing a gun at the clerk demanding money is illegal.

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#30 of 90 Old 06-24-2014, 10:39 AM
 
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Again, you aren't making sense.

You linked to her page at UC Hastings. Did you not read it? Because if you did you would see that she TEACHES tort law. She also writes extensively in law journals about the social and legal policies of vaccination.

I thought it was implied that I meant she was a legal expert in the piece I linked and quoted. She is not an expert in every aspect of the law, clearly. But your claim was that since she is not a medical expert in vaccines her "opinion" wasn't valid. First of all, it's not a matter of opinion that vaccine manufacturers are not exempt from liability due to manufacturing defects. That's a legal fact. Second, the analogy makes no sense. A criminal defense attorney does not have to be a firearm expert or an expert in convenience stores to tell you that walking into a gas station and pointing a gun at the clerk demanding money is illegal.


Again you have ZERO that points to any Heath/Medical related anything that she is an expert in.
All lawyers are the same to you.

Again, let's remember it's simply her opinion and she has no legislative accomplishments to her name regarding health or medical.

Many lawyers write for journals but it make a difference between being good and being great at what your knowledge is when you have a speciality.
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