Unvaccinated children during outbreaks - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 56 Old 06-23-2014, 09:06 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Unvaccinated children during outbreaks

This is on the new today:

"Judge Upholds Policy Barring Unvaccinated Students During Illnesses"

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/23/ny...illnesses.html

"In a case weighing the government’s ability to require vaccination against the individual right to refuse it, a federal judge has upheld a New York City policy that bars unimmunized children from public school when another student has a vaccine-preventable disease.

Citing a 109-year-old Supreme Court ruling that gives states broad power in public health matters, Judge William F. Kuntz II of Federal District Court in Brooklyn ruled against three families who claimed that their right to free exercise of religion was violated when their children were kept from school, sometimes for a month at a time, because of the city’s immunization policies.

The Supreme Court, Judge Kuntz wrote in his ruling, has “strongly suggested that religious objectors are not constitutionally exempt from vaccinations.”

Lets try and not discuss exemptions in general, since that's a vio, but only whether or not schools should take philosophical/religious exemptions during a current school outbreak of contagious disease.

What do you guys think? Is it fair to require unvaccinated children to stay home during outbreaks?

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#2 of 56 Old 06-23-2014, 10:00 AM
 
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It's funny that, when a vaccinated kid has a "vaccine preventable disease", the unvaccinated kid has to stay home.

I hope there will be a way to allow the child to continue school at home, so he/she can return without penalty once the outbreak is over.

 
 
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#3 of 56 Old 06-23-2014, 11:25 AM
 
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Originally Posted by teacozy View Post

Lets try and not discuss exemptions in general, since that's a vio, but only whether or not schools should take philosophical/religious exemptions during a current school outbreak of contagious disease.

What do you guys think? Is it fair to require unvaccinated children to stay home during outbreaks?
I am not sure why you have not included medically exempt in the exclusion scenario. If the reason to exclude them is to either:

-protect them (which is not necessarily your call)
-prevent them from getting and spreading a disease

Then the medically exempt should be included in the exclusion. It is not as if there is a bubble around them.

I have no issue with a child being exempt from school if the following criteria are met:

The disease is reasonably dangerous
The disease is very contagious and easily transmissible
The vaccine is quite (say 80% plus) effective and designed to prevent transmission.


So - diphtheria, yes, chicken pox, flu, pertussis, mumps no. I could break down the other diseases but you get the idea.

There should be no penalities for missing school and help should be given to the students to keep them up to date.

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#4 of 56 Old 06-23-2014, 11:36 AM
 
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Ok - read the article. The kids were kept out over chicken pox. That just seems punitive.

There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#5 of 56 Old 06-23-2014, 12:05 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post
Ok - read the article. The kids were kept out over chicken pox. That just seems punitive.
Chickenpox can cause serious complications (and less often death), especially in children with certain medical conditions. New York is huge, as are their public schools. Elementary schools can have many hundreds or thousands of children. Odds are at least of them are susceptible to severe complications from chicken pox due to some kind of medical condition.

Keeping it from spreading should be a top priority of schools, you don't agree?

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#6 of 56 Old 06-23-2014, 12:20 PM
 
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Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
Keeping it from spreading should be a top priority of schools, you don't agree?
It is certainly isn't a priority in my children's school district. My unvaxxed children got chicken pox during an outbreak which effected both vaxxed and unvaxxed equally. No one was prevented from attending school. Same with the recent pertussis outbreak at DD's HS. Of course it was a bit embarassing because 46 of the 48 kids who contracted whooping cough were fully utd, including the 7th grad Tdap, the other two were "non-compliant" which could mean, unvaxxed or missing the Tdap.

This school district heavily pushes vaccines, so its not like they are anti-vax. Of course this is CO where state legislators recently stood up for parental rights to vaccine choice.

http://www.vaccinationinformationnet...-re-education/

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#7 of 56 Old 06-23-2014, 12:34 PM - Thread Starter
 
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It is certainly isn't a priority in my children's school district.

This school district heavily pushes vaccines, so its not like they are anti-vax. Of course this is CO where state legislators recently stood up for parental rights to vaccine choice.

http://www.vaccinationinformationnet...-re-education/
From the Colorado government site:

"In an outbreak situation, the state or local public health agency will typically work with the child care
facility or school to achieve the following:
Control and prevent further spread of disease;
Identify ill persons so they can receive proper treatment if indicated;
Attempt to identify the source of the outbreak;
Identify infection risk factors;
Evaluate existing prevention strategies. "

http://www.colorado.gov/cs/Satellite...&ssbinary=true

Controlling and preventing further spread of the disease is the first thing listed, seems to be pretty important.

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#8 of 56 Old 06-23-2014, 12:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
Controlling and preventing further spread of the disease is the first thing listed, seems to be pretty important.
As I said, during both "outbreaks" at my children's schools, no unvaccinated child was excluded from school, so I guess the school district health authority didn't think it would help the stop the spread of the diseases,especially with the pertussis outbreak which clearly occurred in a vaccinated population.

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#9 of 56 Old 06-23-2014, 01:50 PM
 
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I think that the only way to protect immune compromised children during an outbreak is to keep them home. No vaccine is effective enough to guarantee that there will be no exposure in a school setting. Plus it is unlikely that every person working at or entering the school will be up-to-date AND genuinely immune as in unable to carry or transmit the illness.
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#10 of 56 Old 06-23-2014, 01:55 PM
 
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Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
Chickenpox can cause serious complications (and less often death), especially in children with certain medical conditions. New York is huge, as are their public schools. Elementary schools can have many hundreds or thousands of children. Odds are at least of them are susceptible to severe complications from chicken pox due to some kind of medical condition.

Keeping it from spreading should be a top priority of schools, you don't agree?
Most people who are over 20 have had the chicken pox and know it to be a typically benign child-hood disease.

I do not think it serves pro-vaxxers purposes to inflate the risks of chicken pox. It is hard to trust the judgement of over -inflaters (and deflaters, too, for that matter).

There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#11 of 56 Old 06-23-2014, 02:10 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post
Most people who are over 20 have had the chicken pox and know it to be a typically benign child-hood disease.

I do not think it serves pro-vaxxers purposes to inflate the risks of chicken pox. It is hard to trust the judgement of over -inflaters (and deflaters, too, for that matter).
Who is over-inflating?

Which part of this sentence do you disagree with exactly?: "Chickenpox can cause serious complications (and less often death), especially in children with certain medical conditions."

Likewise, many many more people have been vaccinated and been just fine. Chickenpox is more dangerous than any vaccine currently on the schedule. I agree it's hard to trust the judgement of over-inflaters

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#12 of 56 Old 06-23-2014, 02:15 PM - Thread Starter
 
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This reminds me of something I saw linked on facebook a week or so ago. I made a similar point with measles a while back, but it works for just about any VPD. Change the name of the disease to "vaccine" and suddenly it doesn't look so harmless and mild.


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#13 of 56 Old 06-23-2014, 02:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
This reminds me of something I saw linked on facebook a week or so ago. I made a similar point with measles a while back, but it works for just about any VPD. Change the name of the disease to "vaccine" and suddenly it doesn't look so harmless and mild.
If that's the way you feel about chicken pox, then your best bet is to keep your kids home whenever it's circulating, whether you've vaccinated them for it or not. When chicken pox is going around, vaccine status isn't very relevant.
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#14 of 56 Old 06-23-2014, 02:49 PM - Thread Starter
 
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When chicken pox is going around, vaccine status isn't very relevant.
I'd hardly call vaccine status irrelevant.

"Vaccine Effectiveness

One dose
1 dose of single-antigen varicella vaccine is—
-85% effective at preventing any form of varicella
-almost 100% effective against severe varicella

Two doses
In a pre-licensure clinical trial, 2 doses of vaccine were—
98% effective at preventing any form of varicella
100% effective against severe varicella

In post-licensure studies, 2 doses of vaccine were—
-88% to 98% effective at preventing all varicella"

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/...e-duration.htm

My pediatrician hasn't seen a single case in years and years.

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#15 of 56 Old 06-23-2014, 02:52 PM - Thread Starter
 
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When chicken pox is going around, vaccine status isn't very relevant.
I'd hardly call vaccine status irrelevant.

"Vaccine Effectiveness

One dose
1 dose of single-antigen varicella vaccine is—
-85% effective at preventing any form of varicella
-almost 100% effective against severe varicella

Two doses
In a pre-licensure clinical trial, 2 doses of vaccine were—
98% effective at preventing any form of varicella
100% effective against severe varicella

In post-licensure studies, 2 doses of vaccine were—
-88% to 98% effective at preventing all varicella"

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/...e-duration.htm

My pediatrician hasn't seen a single case in years and years.

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#16 of 56 Old 06-23-2014, 03:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
I'd hardly call vaccine status irrelevant.

"Vaccine Effectiveness

One dose
1 dose of single-antigen varicella vaccine is—
-85% effective at preventing any form of varicella
-almost 100% effective against severe varicella

Two doses
In a pre-licensure clinical trial, 2 doses of vaccine were—
98% effective at preventing any form of varicella
100% effective against severe varicella

In post-licensure studies, 2 doses of vaccine were—
-88% to 98% effective at preventing all varicella"

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/...e-duration.htm

My pediatrician hasn't seen a single case in years and years.
From what I understand, it's pretty rare for people to go to the doctor about chicken pox, so I'm not surprised your pediatrician hasn't seen any in a while.

If you're confident that those stats are correct and that all those up-to-date vaccinated kids are 100% protected against severe varicella, then I don't understand why you feel so threatened by the few unvaccinated kids (and severe vareicella is pretty unlikely for them too). Those 2% to 12% (going by the post-licensure stats) vaccine failures are enough of a threat to any students who are particularly vulnerable that they should probably be staying away anyway.
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#17 of 56 Old 06-23-2014, 03:50 PM - Thread Starter
 
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From what I understand, it's pretty rare for people to go to the doctor about chicken pox, so I'm not surprised your pediatrician hasn't seen any in a while.

If you're confident that those stats are correct and that all those up-to-date vaccinated kids are 100% protected against severe varicella, then I don't understand why you feel so threatened by the few unvaccinated kids (and severe vareicella is pretty unlikely for them too). Those 2% to 12% (going by the post-licensure stats) vaccine failures are enough of a threat to any students who are particularly vulnerable that they should probably be staying away anyway.
A pediatrician going years without seeing a single case of the chickenpox is surprising. 20+ years ago, that would have been unheard of.

Post licensing puts effectiveness at 88-98 percent. So out of 100 vaccinated children exposed to chickenpox, 2-12 would still be expected to get it. I'm not quaking in fear over chickenpox, but I still don't want my son to get it. Out of my 5 siblings, one got it really badly. She still has facial scars and horrible memories. The rest of us were fine. You just never know. Plus, I want to reduce his chance of getting shingles as much as possible. Now that is a miserable disease.

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#18 of 56 Old 06-23-2014, 04:08 PM
 
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It's funny, isn't it? When the vaccine was introduced, it wasn't because chicken pox was dangerous. It was to make life easier for the working parents who had to take a week or two off of work to care for their poxy child. That was how it was publicized--NOT because it was considered dangerous, because it WASN'T considered dangerous, and those of us who were alive then know this.

Chicken pox is a routine childhood illness: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2563790/
"Chickenpox in the United Kingdom, where vaccination is not undertaken, has had a stable epidemiology for decades and is a routine childhood illness. Because of vaccination, chickenpox is now a rarity in the USA. In the UK vaccination is not done because introduction of a routine childhood vaccination might drive up the age at which those who are non‐immune get the illness (chickenpox tends to be more severe the older you are), and the incidence of shingles may increase."

Some problems linked to the vaccine (links to these and other peer-reviewed published studies here: http://guggiedaly.blogspot.com/2013/...vaccine.html):

Disseminated vaccine-strain varicella as initial presentation of the acquired immunodeficiency syndrome: A case report and review of the literature. (Oka strain is from the vaccine, showing that patients with undiagnosed conditions can experience infection and complications after vaccination.)

Herpes zoster after varicella-zoster vaccination (Shows that shingles can occur despite vaccination, that it can happen in a healthy child and that tests can be falsely negative.)

Fatal varicella due to the vaccine-strain varicella-zoster virus. (Shows that severe infection and complication can occur after vaccination and that infants should be tested for immune health before vaccinating.)

Molecular diagnosis of zoster post varicella vaccination.(Shows that shingles in a toddler after vaccination was caused by the vaccine strain.)

Herpes zoster by reactivated vaccine varicella zoster virus in a healthy child. (Shows that the vaccine can cause shingles in healthy patients after vaccination, and that specific viral testing is required to prove the strain and determine how often this happens.)
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#19 of 56 Old 06-23-2014, 06:17 PM
 
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If some of these illnesses are as serious as claimed, and given the ineffectiveness of some of these vaccines, there are times when schools really need to send home everybody regardless of vax status.

Some parents with a false sense of confidence will send their vaccinated children to school believing that they can't possibly get whooping cough. Then these children return home to newborn siblings and cousins, and disaster ensues. It really is more important to protect children than to protect the name and credibility of a vaccine program.

If whooping cough comes to town, my children, all up-to-date on DTaP, are staying home from school. Health departments should ensure that other children are doing the same.

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#20 of 56 Old 06-23-2014, 06:19 PM
 
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Information on vaccinated vs. unvaccinated doesn't always make the headlines. The Indiana Coalition for Vaccine Choice had to call their health deparment and pull teeth to get information. Here is how they described the phone call months ago on their Facebook page:

"Placed another call to the Indiana State Department of Health. Was able to reach the epidemiologist working the chicken pox outbreak. There are a total of 92 cases so far. Only 3 were never vaccinated. 10 had received one vaccine and 79 were fully vaccinated. They are seeing fewer lesions in the fully vaccinated. Zero deaths. Possibly one hospitalization but not sure off the top of their head. Zero complications from chicken pox. We were told that only one chicken pox vaccine was supposed to provide lifelong immunity but this did not turn out to be the case. A booster was added and yet we are seeing a very high rate of fully vaccinated children contracting chicken pox. We asked if another booster will be mandated and told possibly. We asked about vaccine failures and were told this is not vaccine failure because the severity of lesions in the fully vaccinated was less than if never vaccinated and that no vaccine is 100% effective. We were told that if vaccines save one life they are worth it. We asked how many children died from chicken pox before the vaccine. This epidemiologist was unsure."

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#21 of 56 Old 06-23-2014, 07:01 PM
 
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Who is over-inflating?


Likewise, many many more people have been vaccinated and been just fine. Chickenpox is more dangerous than any vaccine currently on the schedule. I agree it's hard to trust the judgement of over-inflaters
We cannot know how many people have a severe vaccine reaction as the methods for judging those are quite flawed.

OTOH, we do have decent stats on chicken pox risks.

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#22 of 56 Old 06-23-2014, 07:10 PM
 
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Post licensing puts effectiveness at 88-98 percent.
Not quite. From the CDC link you posted upthread:

"A case-control study conducted from 1997 to 2003 showed that 1 dose of varicella vaccine was 97% effective in the first year after vaccination and 86% effective in the second year. From the second to eighth year after vaccination, the vaccine effectiveness remained stable at 81 to 86%. Most vaccinated children who developed varicella during the 8 years after vaccination had mild disease.(1)"
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#23 of 56 Old 06-23-2014, 07:13 PM
 
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OTOH, we do have decent stats on chicken pox risks.
We used to have decent stats. The longer the vaccine is around the weirder the stats will become.
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#24 of 56 Old 06-23-2014, 08:53 PM
 
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We asked about vaccine failures and were told this is not vaccine failure because the severity of lesions in the fully vaccinated was less than if never vaccinated and that no vaccine is 100% effective. ..."
Fascinating. A person gets a vaccine, and gets the disease and this is not considered a vaccine failure, because someone is counting the oozing lesions on the vaccinated child with chicken pox and find that there are less lesions than if they were not vaccinated; does this person develop natural immunity to chicken pox after vaccination and the disease? Or can this person look forward to getting chicken pox boosters, having chicken pox again, and having shingles? This is considered a successful prophylactic against disease. Wow! So what is a vaccine failure?

This is why I say if this is disease prevention, I will take my chances with the real disease. At least I know what to expect.
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#25 of 56 Old 06-24-2014, 05:54 AM
 
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It's funny that, when a vaccinated kid has a "vaccine preventable disease", the unvaccinated kid has to stay home.

I hope there will be a way to allow the child to continue school at home, so he/she can return without penalty once the outbreak is over.
I wouldn't mind at all keeping my DD home in the face of a true outbreak of a highly contagious, highly reactive disease....but for CP? Yah, I might just let her stick around for that. I would absolutely expect some sort of continuance of schooling though. As mentioned in another comment, why aren't these immunocompromised being asked to stay home? I mean really something like a sniffle could kill them never mind CP or pertussis so why is there such a big worry over my healthy unvaxxed kid? Why should my kid have to miss their education and be penalized? I've seen my child in a face of a vaccine and that is a reaction I wouldn't wish on anyone - I'll take my chances with the disease and trust that her body with some immune bossting will know how to handle it and become stronger as a result.

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Fascinating. A person gets a vaccine, and gets the disease and this is not considered a vaccine failure, because someone is counting the oozing lesions on the vaccinated child with chicken pox and find that there are less lesions than if they were not vaccinated; does this person develop natural immunity to chicken pox after vaccination and the disease? Or can this person look forward to getting chicken pox boosters, having chicken pox again, and having shingles? This is considered a successful prophylactic against disease. Wow! So what is a vaccine failure?

This is why I say if this is disease prevention, I will take my chances with the real disease. At least I know what to expect.

Counting lesions is laughable. Talk about unscientific - how do you know they would have had more lesions without the vaccine? That's a HUGE assumption to make.
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As I've mentioned before, the kid down the block who played with my children broke out in chicken pox after getting the vaccine and then again after his other friend got the vaccine. ( And yet my children who have been exposed to vaccine induced chickenpox and to wild virus chickenpox still have zero titres. )

If they are going to bar the unvaccinated from school during an outbreak, then they should have to bar those that are vaccinated but had chickenpox before anyway. And children should not be vaccinated during school terms or should be barred until they are no longer possibly contagious. That means those flu mist kids would be out for close to a month.
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#27 of 56 Old 06-24-2014, 08:52 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post
Not quite. From the CDC link you posted upthread:

"A case-control study conducted from 1997 to 2003 showed that 1 dose of varicella vaccine was 97% effective in the first year after vaccination and 86% effective in the second year. From the second to eighth year after vaccination, the vaccine effectiveness remained stable at 81 to 86%. Most vaccinated children who developed varicella during the 8 years after vaccination had mild disease.(1)"
Thanks, missed that. But that is only for a single dose of the vaccine correct? Two doses is generally going to make the effectiveness higher.

Anyway, the point still stands. A vaccine that is 86% effective is hardly "irrelevant". (That's not directed at you, by the way.)

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
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#28 of 56 Old 06-24-2014, 09:11 AM - Thread Starter
 
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We cannot know how many people have a severe vaccine reaction as the methods for judging those are quite flawed.

OTOH, we do have decent stats on chicken pox risks.
You never responded about which part of my "chickenpox risk- inflating" sentence you disagreed with

Anyway, I disagree that we don't have an extremely good idea about the risks of the vaccine.

I agree, however, that we have decent stats on chickenpox risks. I also know that if those risks were attached to a vaccine it would be pulled off the market.

Death rate for children 1 in 100,000. Death rate for teenagers, almost 3 in 100,000. Death rate for adults, 25 per 100,000.

That's just deaths, mind you.

Other side effects:

pneumonia, meningitis, encephalitis that can lead to seizures and coma, Reye syndrome, Guillain barre syndrome, hemorrhagic varicella, myocarditis (inflamed heart wall), orchitis, hepatitis, flesh eating bacteria, streptococcal toxic shock syndrome, permanent hearing loss, permanent scarring and much much more.

Lets not pretend that if these were listed under known effects of a vaccine that NVers wouldn't be horrified.

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

Last edited by teacozy; 06-24-2014 at 09:31 AM.
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#29 of 56 Old 06-24-2014, 09:32 AM
 
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Third leading cause of death is not chickenpox; it is medical care.

How many of these chickenpox deaths are related more to the care than the disease itself?

This story is titled "chickenpox killed our son" (probably to bring the varicella vaccine to the UK schedule) but read through, it was clearly inadequate medical care that cost this child his life.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/ar...-appeared.html
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#30 of 56 Old 06-24-2014, 10:11 AM
 
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Third leading cause of death is not chickenpox; it is medical care.

How many of these chickenpox deaths are related more to the care than the disease itself?

This story is titled "chickenpox killed our son" (probably to bring the varicella vaccine to the UK schedule) but read through, it was clearly inadequate medical care that cost this child his life.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/ar...-appeared.html
It's STILL officially MILD in the UK! VS our talk on it here - NHS http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/chicken...roduction.aspx

Chickenpox is a mild and common childhood illness that most children catch at some point.
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