for the PRO-vacinators and those who "fully vaccinate" - Page 2 - Mothering Forums
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#31 of 154 Old 07-14-2014, 06:13 AM
 
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I.

1. The article you linked is an opinion piece not a peer reviewed article published in a medical journal, there is a disclaimer at the bottom. I understand that some fringe doctors hold different opinions about the research. There are fringe people in every profession but those aren't the people I consider valid sources for research. I look to peer reviewed sources, the cdc, and my dd's pediatrician for up to date information because they are sources I consider valid. You can feel free to disagree with that but that isn't the point of the thread and if the OP is posting to actually gain insight into her questions about the choices people who believe in vaxing make, I would not be interested in derailing that very much.

.


2. I am not sure why you implied that I was violating the user agreement. I know the guidelines have changed recently and are hard to keep track of in any case, but I believe that the moderators are now asking members to flag posts they believe are in violation without making accusations in posts. Please feel free to do so. I won't be offended at all. These subjects get heated and it is easy to type something offensive without thinking it through in the heat of the moment.
1. I am a bit flummoxed. It was in Pediatrics - do you think they are not credible???? It was very well cited. Mumps and pertussis are not working very well, according to mainstream research. "Well" of course, is subjective - and I think both are working around 70%. If you do no like the source I used, then perhaps in the name of vaccination and childrens health you should verify it by looking at a recent source you like? Saying your source isn't good enough doesn't add to your knowledge base.

I actually think efficacy of a vaccine is very on topic with this conversation. If efficacy of a vaccine is 98% (measles might be, for example) and the disease does not circulate very often, then not wanting to pay or put your kids through an extra pin prick is quite reasonable. If efficacy is lower or there are regular outbreaks (true with both pertussis and mumps) then knowing titre levels might be more useful.

2. I don't think you said anything offensive. I have no desire to flag it. I didn't imply you were breaking the user agreement. I was talking in general about pro-vaxxers who make nasty comments. I thought that was clear with:

" ...There are PVer who are UAVs and pro-vaxxers who are not UAV's. If you (general you) are not a UAV, then this does not apply to you."

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#32 of 154 Old 07-14-2014, 06:18 AM
 
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two of the problems with the way vaccines are tested for efficacy--

they are tested in a selected population, healthy, and free of a long list of pre-existing conditions. assuming that the general population will have the same rate of immune response is not science it is hope

they are tested in combination with a limited number of other vaccines. at this point, with so many vaccines on the schedule, one of the only ways to get a doctor to go along happily with fewer vaccines is to enroll your baby in a clinical study of a new vaccine...
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#33 of 154 Old 07-14-2014, 06:45 AM
 
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I was never tested while pregnant. Not to my knowledge, at least, they just looked at my vaccination records. I never heard of titers before this thread. I didn't realize you could test if a vaccine took or not. I'm honestly not overly bothered, I'm surprised anti-vaxxers, people who think that they can handle these diseases so don't need to vaccinate, are so pushing testing titers. If these diseases are something you're fine with your kids getting them, why do you care so much that our kids might get them? That sounds snottier than it's meant to be, I've got no problem with anti-vaxxers. You do what's right for your family, I do what's right for mine, no big deal.

But, seriously, if you're cool with your kids not having vaccine-induced immunity, why are you so angry that our kids might not? I know that vaccines aren't 100% effective, even if the titer test said "vaccine 100% effective" there's still a risk kiddo could get it. Or I could get it. Whatever. There's nothing you can do about it if the vaccines didn't take, to my knowledge, except be prepared. Which I am anyways.

The only reason I'd consider it is because kiddo got the varicella vaccine against our wishes and if it didn't take, I want to get kiddo chickenpox. Or I can just find a chickenpox party and throw kiddo at it.

Whether or not I will do pretty much anything is this:
-How invasive is the test? (if it's more than just a simple blood test, I'm not going to put my child through that until he's old enough to make the choice unless there's a VERY good reason- same reason I'm not testing for celiac's, all it'll tell me is that kiddo can't eat gluten which I already know)
-How much will it cost us? (we're not made of money- if we were millionaires, sure)
-What are the benefits? (here- nada.)

Also, this thread's entire tone has been very close-minded and confrontational towards pro-vax. If you truly want an open discussion, you should act like it.
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#34 of 154 Old 07-14-2014, 07:02 AM
 
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I was never tested while pregnant. Not to my knowledge, at least, they just looked at my vaccination records. I never heard of titers before this thread.
Testing for rubella titers is part of the standard 1st trimester blood work - http://www.babycenter.com/0_common-f...9273.bc?page=1

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#35 of 154 Old 07-14-2014, 07:05 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I was never tested while pregnant. Not to my knowledge, at least, they just looked at my vaccination records. I never heard of titers before this thread. I didn't realize you could test if a vaccine took or not. I'm honestly not overly bothered, I'm surprised anti-vaxxers, people who think that they can handle these diseases so don't need to vaccinate, are so pushing testing titers. If these diseases are something you're fine with your kids getting them, why do you care so much that our kids might get them? That sounds snottier than it's meant to be, I've got no problem with anti-vaxxers. You do what's right for your family, I do what's right for mine, no big deal.

But, seriously, if you're cool with your kids not having vaccine-induced immunity, why are you so angry that our kids might not? I know that vaccines aren't 100% effective, even if the titer test said "vaccine 100% effective" there's still a risk kiddo could get it. Or I could get it. Whatever. There's nothing you can do about it if the vaccines didn't take, to my knowledge, except be prepared. Which I am anyways.

The only reason I'd consider it is because kiddo got the varicella vaccine against our wishes and if it didn't take, I want to get kiddo chickenpox. Or I can just find a chickenpox party and throw kiddo at it.

Whether or not I will do pretty much anything is this:
-How invasive is the test? (if it's more than just a simple blood test, I'm not going to put my child through that until he's old enough to make the choice unless there's a VERY good reason- same reason I'm not testing for celiac's, all it'll tell me is that kiddo can't eat gluten which I already know) see below, it's just like any other blood test that many ped are doing as routine
-How much will it cost us? (we're not made of money- if we were millionaires, sure) Most insurance will pay, again you can do this without even an office visit at a pay to test chain lab.
-What are the benefits? (here- nada.) Well you would know if you child is at risk - why wouldn't you want to know that? This is what I simply don't get. IF you child didn't become immune, they can spread it if they get it and you could better treat (in some cases) earlier too - that is a win! Is it not?

Also, this thread's entire tone has been very close-minded and confrontational towards pro-vax. If you truly want an open discussion, you should act like it.

I think you are not real informed here.

First blood work during pregnancy is well, quite standard! Routine in HVI, herpes, cholesterol and titers for mumps/rubella, etc. I know of no one now of days that is not done one, at least offered.

With children standard blood work is becoming quite the norm too, this is done with a blood draw just like or at the same time as iron, lead and many doctors now are even doing cholesterol in children.

This isn't out of the norm really. IF you should have the symptoms for mumps or measles, they will want to test you (blood test/titer) to make sure - so it's not something odd here.

I really don't get how you see this as "closed minded" - frankly those who vaccinated are constantly after those of us who don't as being the cause of everything. When we are seeing now outbreaks where vaccinated are getting the VPD, IMO it makes sense to ask - if the science is there (and it is) why are you using it? You (the vaccinated) often say they do it for the herd, well why not know for sure - why just assume? Frankly the .3% that do not vaccinate vs the failure rates we are seeing don't make sense IMO. Failure and waning plus that ability to titer makes sense if one truly does care about that herd.

Blind faith isn't science, it's wishful thinking. You don't know otherwise!
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#36 of 154 Old 07-14-2014, 07:33 AM
 
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Your tone was very confrontational. You're also ignoring what's being said. I gave the answer to your question, you either don't find it good enough or aren't bothering to actually read what I said and are only skimming to find things to tear apart. If you don't find it good enough, I have no interest in continuing this conversation. If you aren't reading what I'm saying, I have no interest in continuing this conversation.

I did the routine blood work and they didn't say a word about testing for that, they did say that they were testing for hte various diseases and iron levels and such but not for the mumps/rubella titers. Don't know if they didn't tell me (possible) or if they didn't do it (possible). I have no problem with kiddo getting tested for it if it's part of bloodwork that'll be done anyways, I see no point going out of my way to get it. If you want to push doctors to make testing titers part of routine blood work, be my guest. I have already said why I don't see a need to go out of my way for it.

(we're also currently uninsured, so insurance covering it doesn't help- yes, we're working on getting kiddo on state insurance, which will sometimes retro-actively cover costs, but at the moment, we're uninsured and so the cost of all medical treatment is out of pocket. You can see the percentage of children who are uninsured in the various US states here. Don't assume everyone has insurance.)

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#37 of 154 Old 07-14-2014, 07:57 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Your tone was very confrontational. You're also ignoring what's being said. I gave the answer to your question, you either don't find it good enough or aren't bothering to actually read what I said and are only skimming to find things to tear apart. If you don't find it good enough, I have no interest in continuing this conversation. If you aren't reading what I'm saying, I have no interest in continuing this conversation.

I did the routine blood work and they didn't say a word about testing for that, they did say that they were testing for hte various diseases and iron levels and such but not for the mumps/rubella titers. Don't know if they didn't tell me (possible) or if they didn't do it (possible). I have no problem with kiddo getting tested for it if it's part of bloodwork that'll be done anyways, I see no point going out of my way to get it. If you want to push doctors to make testing titers part of routine blood work, be my guest. I have already said why I don't see a need to go out of my way for it.

(we're also currently uninsured, so insurance covering it doesn't help- yes, we're working on getting kiddo on state insurance, which will sometimes retro-actively cover costs, but at the moment, we're uninsured and so the cost of all medical treatment is out of pocket. You can see the percentage of children who are uninsured in the various US states here. Don't assume everyone has insurance.)
You were the one that asked questions in your post, I'm sorry you didn't like the replies and you choose to view them as confrontational, I simply answered them.
Even without insurance I know pregnant women that are tested I know of NO place they are not doing this and the state program also test for children that don't have insurance.
Without insurance many women still get at least some prenatal care and part of that care is the prenatal testing. It really easy to have done!
The state certainly will test you for free after the fact if you show symptoms since they do keep records.
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#38 of 154 Old 07-14-2014, 08:05 AM
 
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I never heard of titers before this thread.
I cannot believe in the age of the internet, informed consent and a women's rights, a woman patient would not know what titres were! Do women just walk into a doctors' office and roll up their sleeves and hope for the best? That is blind trust and should never be done by anyone. Ask some questions. Your life may depend on it.

Titres were required when I got married to prove I had immunity to rubella. Titres are required for a prenatal blood panel to prove there are no ABO or Rh problems. Titres are used to determine if hepatitis or other diseases are present during pregnancy or for employment. Simply using a Taber's and or a nursing or lab text will give the curious person a cursory knowledge of the components of any CBC .

The reason a nonvaxer would ask for a titre count would be to know if that person all ready has immunity to a disease that the doctor wants to vaccinate that person against. Knowing that vaccines are not without their own dangers, getting a titre count is an important step.
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#39 of 154 Old 07-14-2014, 09:07 AM
 
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Considering all the fraud committed thus far by pharma that has come to light, trusting their research as opposed to gaining insight on a personal level whether the vaccine is working for you or yours seems to me to be faith-based, not science-based.


Where this becomes an issue of hypocrisy is when demanding others vaccinate (i.e. by calling for politicians to do whatever it is Tadamsmar is asking them to do) but at the same time balking at taking a titres test yourself. You would think those who want to mandate them for everyone would jump at the chance to show their effectiveness.
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#40 of 154 Old 07-14-2014, 09:10 AM
 
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My dd's pediatrician does not view blood work as common during routine check ups and many insurance companies, including the one we are insured through, don't cover titers. I seriously doubt I would keep my child out of school in any case since I am a single mother and have to work. As a single parent sometimes my dd does have to face risks she wouldn't have to otherwise and this would be one of them in the unlikely event a vaccine didn't take so testing really wouldn't matter.

I also hadn't heard of titers until a couple years ago. I was 20 when I got pregnant and I really don't remember if I got a titers test for rubella or not. I doubt it is very common for women to remember all the tests they had during pregnancy since there are so many and if they go well it doesn't have an affect beyond blood being removed from the body. I read quite a bit during pregnancy but was more focused on learning about what was going on with my body, how to have a successful natural child birth and plan for birth, and breastfeeding successfully. What they were doing with the blood they took and tested was only a momentary concern until each test came back fine. It's awesome if you can remember all the tests you had when you were pregnant but I don't think it's horrifying that other women can't.

I agree with sillysapling about making elitist assumptions about people's ability to afford insurance. Just because some poor people do get insurance and prenatal care doesn't mean all people can or will when it is incredibly difficult to do so. It is not actually that easy to get past costs covered nor is it easy to get an office to allow you to pay later for anything if you don't have insurance.

The reasons for not being insured and the way families make choices about medical interventions are complex so knowing some people who get care really doesn't mean that it is easy for all, or most, uninsured people to do so. If you want to make sure everyone gets titers testing so your children aren't alone in being kept out of school you really should delve more into this topic so the legislation you push your local legislatures to pass is realistic and has a chance of passing.
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#41 of 154 Old 07-14-2014, 09:14 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I cannot believe in the age of the internet, informed consent and a women's rights, a woman patient would not know what titres were! Do women just walk into a doctors' office and roll up their sleeves and hope for the best? That is blind trust and should never be done by anyone. Ask some questions. Your life may depend on it.

Titres were required when I got married to prove I had immunity to rubella. Titres are required for a prenatal blood panel to prove there are no ABO or Rh problems. Titres are used to determine if hepatitis or other diseases are present during pregnancy or for employment. Simply using a Taber's and or a nursing or lab text will give the curious person a cursory knowledge of the components of any CBC .

The reason a nonvaxer would ask for a titre count would be to know if that person all ready has immunity to a disease that the doctor wants to vaccinate that person against. Knowing that vaccines are not without their own dangers, getting a titre count is an important step.
Applejuuce it still occurs in certain states. It's not unusual at all!

ETA- pre marriage testing still occurs http://www.nolo.com/legal-encycloped...ood-29019.html

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#42 of 154 Old 07-14-2014, 09:20 AM - Thread Starter
 
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My dd's pediatrician does not view blood work as common during routine check ups and many insurance companies, including the one we are insured through, don't cover titers. I seriously doubt I would keep my child out of school in any case since I am a single mother and have to work. As a single parent sometimes my dd does have to face risks she wouldn't have to otherwise and this would be one of them in the unlikely event a vaccine didn't take so testing really wouldn't matter.

I also hadn't heard of titers until a couple years ago. I was 20 when I got pregnant and I really don't remember if I got a titers test for rubella or not. I doubt it is very common for women to remember all the tests they had during pregnancy since there are so many and if they go well it doesn't have an affect beyond blood being removed from the body. I read quite a bit during pregnancy but was more focused on learning about what was going on with my body, how to have a successful natural child birth and plan for birth, and breastfeeding successfully. What they were doing with the blood they took and tested was only a momentary concern until each test came back fine. It's awesome if you can remember all the tests you had when you were pregnant but I don't think it's horrifying that other women can't.

I agree with sillysapling about making elitist assumptions about people's ability to afford insurance. Just because some poor people do get insurance and prenatal care doesn't mean all people can or will when it is incredibly difficult to do so. It is not actually that easy to get past costs covered nor is it easy to get an office to allow you to pay later for anything if you don't have insurance.

The reasons for not being insured and the way families make choices about medical interventions are complex so knowing some people who get care really doesn't mean that it is easy for all, or most, uninsured people to do so. If you want to make sure everyone gets titers testing so your children aren't alone in being kept out of school you really should delve more into this topic so the legislation you push your local legislatures to pass is realistic and has a chance of passing.
I know all the hospitals in my state require blood work if you give birth so if you didn't have it done or no record they are going to test you and your infant when you give birth, again this isn't odd or out of the ordinary at all, it common just like HIV testing, quite standard, just like RH was mentioned too.
Insurance or not, states do free testing.
I know someone pregnant who's child doesn't have insurance and had no problem having her child tested- but this thread is not about insurance.
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#43 of 154 Old 07-14-2014, 09:26 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Considering all the fraud committed thus far by pharma that has come to light, trusting their research as opposed to gaining insight on a personal level whether the vaccine is working for you or yours seems to me to be faith-based, not science-based.


Where this becomes an issue of hypocrisy is when demanding others vaccinate (i.e. by calling for politicians to do whatever it is Tadamsmar is asking them to do) but at the same time balking at taking a titres test yourself. You would think those who want to mandate them for everyone would jump at the chance to show their effectiveness.
Well you got it!
As a society we think nothing about doing routine blood work annually.

I too find it so interesting how those who support vaccines don't favor testing yet rely on blind faith over science!!!
We constantly hear " science " regarding vaccines, we test for all other things but when we do have science to test effectiveness we poo-poo the idea and make excuses!

I guess I'm out if the loop I though with testing pregnant women others who vaccinate would embrace it in children --- how odd they don't??
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#44 of 154 Old 07-14-2014, 09:57 AM
 
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Well you got it!
As a society we think nothing about doing routine blood work annually.

I too find it so interesting how those who support vaccines don't favor testing yet rely on blind faith over science!!!
We constantly hear " science " regarding vaccines, we test for all other things but when we do have science to test effectiveness we poo-poo the idea and make excuses!

I guess I'm out if the loop I though with testing pregnant women others who vaccinate would embrace it in children --- how odd they don't??
Are you saying it's odd that people who believe in vaccinating rely on science and don't subject their children or themselves to medically unnecessary tests? Or that it's odd that not everybody agrees with you about what the research says, what actually constitutes research, and what is medically necessary?

I think it is naive to think that just because a person chooses to go through with one kind of medical intervention they have researched and believe is medically necessary that they would then accept every medical intervention as medically necessary. I don't get blood work done every year, I don't know anybody who does. There is not one medical intervention or test that I do yearly for myself or dd because there aren't any that are medically necessary on a yearly basis. For the most part I avoid interventions for me and my dd.

I find it very interesting that people who don't vaccinate do get so many medically unnecessary interventions done. Obviously this was a subject I was naive about. I had always assumed that people who don't vaccinate are educated about and cautious about other medical interventions being necessary also. I'm a little curious about why you believe it is important for you and your children to have yearly invasive interventions done but I understand if you want to save that answer for another thread. This is a very interesting thread.
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#45 of 154 Old 07-14-2014, 10:07 AM
 
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Just a quick current event that I'm experiencing today:

We are visiting some family down in North Carolina. When we got here, we found out that our relative's family (who have 11 children) is going through whooping cough. They vaccinated the first few kids and became non-vaxxers later in the process. The quick version of the story is that the second-to-oldest son had a friend who was dealing with a nasty cough - found to be pertussis. Both the boys were vaccinated. Boy #1 with pertussis and Boy #2 , our relative. Before long, Boy #2 had the cough and began giving it to his siblings and parents. The parents were vaccinated. All but two of the family members got it. The two that did not get it were not vaccinated. 50% of the rest were vaccinated. They are on the tail end of the sickness now.

When being interviewed by the Dept. of Health, these above facts were given. The Department of Health chose to file the paperwork stating that the origin of infection was in the next oldest boy who #1 got it and #2 had not been vaccinated. WHY. You tell me. The mother I was talking to was furious about this blatant manipulation. We can't always believe statistics.

I happen to come from a HUGE family (over 100 people) in which nobody vaccinates. There have never been outbreaks of whooping cough, measles, anything of the sort, other than standard chicken pox or roseola even though others in the local community had had issues with it. I'm not trying to draw any conclusions whatsoever from this, or put this information onto anyone with any other backgrounds or point of view. Just thought I would share. Specifically because growing up, I didn't know anything about vaccines. It wasn't in our culture. Now, I hear all this debate and find it all very interesting.

We grew up around many Amish and Mennonites who also do not vaccinate. None of us would ever 'want' our kids or anyone else's kids to get the illnesses, but knowing what goes into the process of making many vaccines (purely un-ethical) and what side-effects I have seen result from vaccinations, is enough to keep me on the mostly non-vaxxing side of things, for now. I do believe that everything we do and every decision we make should be for the good of our world, our neighbors and for ourselves. I don't understand the argument of 'you and your family' or 'me and mine' type of decision making. In the end, or in the beginning, we are all looking for the same thing, and that is peace and safety. When we all work together and find these safe, ethical, good-for-everyone solutions, that is when the peace comes. So I listen to the debate fully and try to discern motives and seek the middle-way. The vaccinations are obviously not yet perfected in science. New strains of disease, bacteria and virus develop very often. There are major hurdles for scientists to tackle in the coming century. I think that we'll find vaccinations to be a minor concern when antibiotic resistance and super-bacteria is an escalating problem. However, the vaccination topic is timely and must be spoken about. We are given decisions to make for our children and the future of this civilization and that is no joke. The weight of it all does cause much tension. Let's all keep that in mind. I am so glad for the vaccinators who are willing to share. Otherwise, this thread would not be so interesting or informative.

I absolutely would agree to titre testing (because I am certainly not against the medical industry in general) and see the argument that they should (if vaccinations are required) be required for public health information purposes. Having vaccinations without having any further information as to whether they were effective sounds to me like a job half done, if the goal is immunity.

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#46 of 154 Old 07-14-2014, 10:11 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by One_Girl View Post
Are you saying it's odd that people who believe in vaccinating rely on science and don't subject their children or themselves to medically unnecessary tests? Or that it's odd that not everybody agrees with you about what the research says, what actually constitutes research, and what is medically necessary?

I think it is naive to think that just because a person chooses to go through with one kind of medical intervention they have researched and believe is medically necessary that they would then accept every medical intervention as medically necessary. I don't get blood work done every year, I don't know anybody who does. There is not one medical intervention or test that I do yearly for myself or dd because there aren't any that are medically necessary on a yearly basis. For the most part I avoid interventions for me and my dd.

I find it very interesting that people who don't vaccinate do get so many medically unnecessary interventions done. Where did this come from?? I don't know this to be the cause at all - any link here? Obviously this was a subject I was naive about. I had always assumed that people who don't vaccinate are educated about and cautious about other medical interventions being necessary also. I'm a little curious about why you believe it is important for you and your children to have yearly invasive interventions done but I understand if you want to save that answer for another thread. This is a very interesting thread.
You didn't read what I wrote, NO where did I say I or my family has yearly invasive interventions done, NO PLACE. As a society this is quite the norm, yearly physicals are routinely done and they do include blood work.

I think you are missing my points!

IF you do believe in vaccines, how do you think the "testing" was done in the first place on them? Titer testing is't odd at all. The notion that it's ok for others to have done that so you can vaccinated to me is hypocritical - that is my opinion. Frankly I don't get why one would not want to know if their child really was immune or not - isn't that "preventive" measures vs getting a VPD??? This totally baffles me - no problem getting a vaccine BUT no way do a blood draw? That does not make one bit of sense to me!

And as stated, we constantly are being told it's all about "the science", so no I don't get why other's don't embraces one from of it but have no problem going after those of us who don't vaccinate.


Regarding issuance and elitist, I don't think it's fair or even correct to accuse me of being an elitist for saying what my insurance paid for. I DID not assume most people have insurance. Now that is a different story because it is the law to have insurance. Mine use to not even cover vaccines, because they didn't have to, now they are required to do so.
Being tested is also FREE and super available to be found - just in my city, you have the pregnancy crisis center, the city health dept, the state health dept and as I said you deliver and show up with no paper work, you are tested and so is your child.
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#47 of 154 Old 07-14-2014, 10:20 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by hikingfortruth View Post
I absolutely would agree to titre testing (because I am certainly not against the medical industry in general) and see the argument that they should (if vaccinations are required) be required for public health information purposes. Having vaccinations without having any further information as to whether they were effective sounds to me like a job half done, if the goal is immunity.
....and the testing is being done, sadly ONLY after an outbreak!

I really wonder if those who vaccinate and are so opposed to titer testing would also argue with the state health department or their DR (since most have the testing done in the office) if their child did have WC or need blood work to confirm measles? IF you know, you can treat better, sooner... but I am "assuming" if you don't want to know with titers you are just relying all of faith here.


http://www.ktvu.com/news/news/health...e-vacci/nfhPj/


His parents reached out to KTVU, saying they wanted to let others know they did their due diligence vaccinating their children, ages 9 and 3. They also wanted to warn other parents the vaccine might not be enough to protect their kids.
"We all had DTaP, we all had the boosters, and we all still got whooping cough." the mother told KTVU from her home.
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#48 of 154 Old 07-14-2014, 10:33 AM
 
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Originally Posted by serenbat View Post
You didn't read what I wrote, NO where did I say I or my family has yearly invasive interventions done, NO PLACE. As a society this is quite the norm, yearly physicals are routinely done and they do include blood work.

I think you are missing my points!

IF you do believe in vaccines, how do you think the "testing" was done in the first place on them? Titer testing is't odd at all. The notion that it's ok for others to have done that so you can vaccinated to me is hypocritical - that is my opinion. Frankly I don't get why one would not want to know if their child really was immune or not - isn't that "preventive" measures vs getting a VPD??? This totally baffles me - no problem getting a vaccine BUT no way do a blood draw? That does not make one bit of sense to me!

And as stated, we constantly are being told it's all about "the science", so no I don't get why other's don't embraces one from of it but have no problem going after those of us who don't vaccinate.


Regarding issuance and elitist, I don't think it's fair or even correct to accuse me of being an elitist for saying what my insurance paid for. I DID not assume most people have insurance. Now that is a different story because it is the law to have insurance. Mine use to not even cover vaccines, because they didn't have to, now they are required to do so.
Being tested is also FREE and super available to be found - just in my city, you have the pregnancy crisis center, the city health dept, the state health dept and as I said you deliver and show up with no paper work, you are tested and so is your child.
I did read what you wrote and I'm sorry. I assumed that since you were so certain that blood tests are done routinely every year and that they are not a big deal that you had personal experience with them for yourself and your family. Routine blood draws may be normal where you live, I don't live there and haven't analyzed your research that says this is the case so I can't weigh in on that, but they certainly aren't here so your argument about them not being a big deal has no meaning to me and doesn't affect my decision. Maybe somebody who believes in vaccinating and lives somewhere where they do blood tests yearly will chime in on the issue of titers tests.

I've already answered the questions of why I feel it's unnecessary to do the titers test, not caring if that seems hypocritical, and not being willing to do all medical interventions just because I do a few. If you are actually interested in the answers to your question from the point of view of someone who believes in vaccinating you can feel free to read them or the posts of the other people who vaccinate and replied to your questions.
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#49 of 154 Old 07-14-2014, 11:04 AM
 
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Annual blood test are certainly not routine here.

I do recall having blood tests during both my pregnancies (so both in the US and in the UK).
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#50 of 154 Old 07-14-2014, 11:05 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I did read what you wrote and I'm sorry. I assumed that since you were so certain that blood tests are done routinely every year and that they are not a big deal that you had personal experience with them for yourself and your family. Routine blood draws may be normal where you live, I don't live there and haven't analyzed your research that says this is the case so I can't weigh in on that, but they certainly aren't here so your argument about them not being a big deal has no meaning to me and doesn't affect my decision. Maybe somebody who believes in vaccinating and lives somewhere where they do blood tests yearly will chime in on the issue of titers tests.

I've already answered the questions of why I feel it's unnecessary to do the titers test, not caring if that seems hypocritical, and not being willing to do all medical interventions just because I do a few. If you are actually interested in the answers to your question from the point of view of someone who believes in vaccinating you can feel free to read them or the posts of the other people who vaccinate and replied to your questions.
Blood screening is quite the norm (in my area) given that most Peds seem to follow the same protocol I assumed it was in most of the US. It's routine for all teens and adults too, not one bit odd. Lead, anemia etc in infants has been recommend for years by the AAP. HIV is also very common now too.

If others want to go on blind faith so be it, I just don't get the "science" behind it

ETA- those all opposed - opposed to the other testing being done, anemia, RH (if not done during pregnancy) PKU, lead, cholesterol, HIV, etc. and there is also TB testing too ?
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Originally Posted by serenbat View Post
Blood screening is quite the norm (in my area) given that most Peds seem to follow the same protocol I assumed it was in most of the US. It's routine for all teens and adults too, not one bit odd. Lead, anemia etc in infants has been recommend for years by the AAP. HIV is also very common now too.

If others want to go on blind faith so be it, I just don't the "science" behind it
My feelings exactly. I've always preferred science to "science", it's good to know we agree.
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#52 of 154 Old 07-14-2014, 11:22 AM
 
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Yearly blood work for children isn't common where I am, and I do have insurance. At one year of age they do a finger stick for anemia, but I don't think my kids have ever had blood work done as a part of routine well baby/well child care. I am not interested in what their titers show. What's the point? If their titers show no immunity to the vaccines, what am I to do with that information? That's generally how I decide what tests to do or not do. What will I do with the information I get from the test?

As an adult, I've had titers drawn numerous times. I didn't have a vaccine record when I entered college, so I had titers done. I was required to have a rubella titer to get married. My husband had to have full titer panels done when he started his job (I won't say what his job is, so don't ask). Oddly enough, he had never had the chicken pox, but was immune. I have not had titers done for every pregnancy, but my immunity status is in my medical record. I have had HIV and all STD's done every time, along with a CBC, and antibody screen, and blood sugar. They did not draw my cholesterol. I always keep close tabs on what they draw and what it shows, because I'm kind of nerdy like that and I think it is really interesting.

Did that answer any questions? I found the original post confusing.
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#53 of 154 Old 07-14-2014, 11:22 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Since I'm being accused as being an elitist for mentioning insurance I thought I would post this too - since it's now the law in the US, I "assumed" using the word insurance was not elitist. This really is not about insurance. http://m.insurekidsnow.gov
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I'm not sure what that link is supposed to tell us. but you do know that there are populations in the US that slip between the cracks, right? They make too much for government insurance, but too little to pay for it themselves. And having insurance isn't a "law." You can opt out by paying the fee. So people can still choose to not have insurance. Also, state insurance coverage for kids varies by state. Some states have more liberal guidelines and try to catch all kids, other states do not.
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#55 of 154 Old 07-14-2014, 11:46 AM
 
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Originally Posted by serenbat View Post
Since I'm being accused as being an elitist for mentioning insurance I thought I would post this too - since it's now the law in the US, I "assumed" using the word insurance was not elitist. This really is not about insurance. http://m.insurekidsnow.gov
Elitism gets trotted out with some regularity. I would not worry about it.

That being said - if someone suggested not vaccinating due to no insurance or lack of funds that would never fly. Pro-vaxxers would (perhaps rightly) come down on those saying it like a ton of bricks. I can see it now:

"There are programs to help with defraying the cost of vaccination. I hope you can find one that works for you. That being said, money should never come before protecting your child. It is neglectful to not get them life-saving vaccines due to finances. While I have sympathy for your predicament, there are costs to health care, and you knew that going into parenthood. You need to mom-up and get them their vaccines, for their sake as well as others such as infants and the immunocompromised."

If money is not an acceptable excuse for avoiding vaccines, then it should not be an excuse for avoiding titres - especially where efficacy is known to be low, or in the midst of an outbreak.

Lastly, pro-vaxxers suggest non-vaxxers homeschool or find other occupations with some regularity. Those have huge finacial costs associated with them. I have trouble caring about financial costs associated with titring, when others do not care about much, much larger financial costs.

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#56 of 154 Old 07-14-2014, 12:09 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Elitism gets trotted out with some regularity. I would not worry about it. I don't but yea it is the law of the land here in the US.

That being said - if someone suggested not vaccinating due to no insurance or lack of funds that would never fly. Pro-vaxxers would (perhaps rightly) come down on those saying it like a ton of bricks. I can see it now:

"There are programs to help with defraying the cost of vaccination. I hope you can find one that works for you. That being said, money should never come before protecting your child. It is neglectful to not get them life-saving vaccines due to finaces. While I have sympathy for your predicament, their are costs to health care, and you knew that going into parenthood. You need to mom-up and get them their vaccines, for their sake as well as others such as infants and the immunocompromised."

If money is not an acceptable excuse for avoiding vaccines, then it should not be an excuse for avoiding titres - especially where efficacy is known to be low, or in the midst of an outbreak.
AND if you are suspected of having a VPD the state does want to test you!
Lastly, pro-vaxxers suggest non-vaxxer homeschool or find other occupations with some regularity. Those have huge finacial costs associated with them. I have trouble caring about financial costs associated with titring, when others do not care about much, much larger financial costs. I do as well!
Great point Kathy!




You know when you think about it, someone's kids did do those vaccine trials for all those vaccines PRO vaccinators are willing to give their children. Titers were drawn so others can keep the faith - isn't it ironic? Those who want vaccines wants others to do what they are not willing to do!
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#57 of 154 Old 07-14-2014, 12:26 PM
 
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I do as well! Great point Kathy!




You know when you think about it, someone's kids did do those vaccine trials for all those vaccines PRO vaccinators are willing to give their children. Titer were drawn so others can keep the faith - it's it ironic? Those who want vaccines wants others to do what they are not willing to do!
I don't understand your point. Research in medicine is done so others can benefit when they need to. Some people make sacrifices of varying degrees for this to happen and some people just benefit.


I see no problem relying on research that has been done already. There are many medical experiments I'd rather not be a part of but would be happy to use the results of if I were ill and in need also. I think it's very extreme to believe you should have to participate in medical research for any intervention you may need or want in order to use it. The idea that research must be repeated any time an intervention or medication is provided doesn't make any sense to me. I'm happy for people to use current research to get treatment for a whole range of serious and minor conditions even if they never volunteered their body for research.  
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#58 of 154 Old 07-14-2014, 01:58 PM
 
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I have to say that routine bloodwork isn't done here either and I find it odd. That is one reason the "well child checkups" get on my nerves! I can weigh my child and measure their height at home. Heck I can even get the monitor and run their iron check at home. I can call their weight/height measurements into you and call or come in if we have questions, concerns or the child seems to be getting ill or off. If that's all that's being done why am I paying money and draining my insurance by coming in?! Now if they did titers or blood work to check other things as well then I'd be all for it! It does vary by state/area though as a friend's children (in another state) get urinalysis and bloodwork done at their check ups. I think that's great! Also here HIV testing even for adults is optional which I find strange. For each of my annual paps they ran the other STD's (from urinalysis) and then asked if I wanted HIV run. Well yeah! I want to say I recall being asked the same thing during pregnancy checks too which I find odd since they're already doing bloodwork so I'm not sure if it's standard procedure then or optional. I wish they did better checkups because as it is the way they do them here it's just a waste of time and money.

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#59 of 154 Old 07-14-2014, 07:25 PM
 
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"Free" is a public health fallacy. Do you think the lab workers are donating their time, and the testing companies are donating their supplies? The factory workers are making up the little plastic vials out of the goodness of their hearts? It costs money to be done and I believe in being a responsible consumer of healthcare. People die due to lack f access to affordable health care and thinking a test (or an ER visit or a hip replacement) free" is a part of it. They cost *someone* hundreds of dollars.

That being said, some times tests are worth it. Such as rubella titers in pregnancy. This is a public health, risk-benefit issue IMO.

Yes, it is faith based. Mortgage companies have screwed the US for money but I still just signed my recent refinance paperwork with only a very basic understanding of it. I know it's not a subprime or balloon or other terrible mortgage and otherwise I hired a lawyer to make sure the paperwork was in order. I hire a mechanic for my car despite the fact that they still can't figure out that dinging noise, and I drive a car despite the cover ups in safety recalls that are always coming up. I have a retirement account where they invest based on how far away retirement is for me and I don't really know exactly where it goes, despite the fact that people lose money in their retirement accounts with crashes in the market. I know this is an analogy that could be picked apart but things like a safe car, a roof over my head, money for basics of living when I'm elderly, all seem like greater threats to my health then vaccines. The one field where I go much deeper is the field where I work, in which case I take a more nuanced view of the research, know the conflicts, share them with my patients, etc. I expect my pedi to do the same and she does, and she recommends vaxxing. Clearly many of the anti of selective vaxxers here are able to become experts in these field without giving up to much else in your life but I have not found that I could do that. Perhaps because for those who post here the most, vaxxes ARE the biggest health threat in your life. I do not feel compelled to treat them that way. I find that there is a lot of conflicting research but what is more clear is that vaxxes are not 100% but what is less clear (to ME)is that vaxxes are more harmful than they are helpful.
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#60 of 154 Old 07-14-2014, 07:32 PM
 
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CrazyMS- if you can monitor those things at home, and feel comfortable assessing your child's development, then you are right, you probably don't need well child visits. The schedule is based on a) the average family, which has a 6th grade reading level and puts juice and/or rice cereal in their 4 mo.'s bottle and b) the recommended vaccine schedule. Running extra bloodwork or tests is not a risk free thing (and mainstream medicine agrees) Mammograms for example, or pelvic ultrasounds for ovarian cancer screening, or Pap smears for sexually active 19 year olds- all sound like good ideas, but current research suggests they cause more harm than good.
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