The ethics of "disease parties" - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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#61 of 78 Old 07-17-2014, 11:40 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by samaxtics View Post
From the CDC:



My bold.

And the operative word seems to be "reported". No reports, no evidence. How would someone know the flu was from the vaccine unless they tested the flu strain? The authorities quit testing for H1N1 after a bit, what makes you think when someone presents with the flu, that they are going to be tested to see whether it is wild-type or vaccine strain?

Both the CDC and the manufacturer (the link you supplied) agree that children shed more than adults.

When I clicked on the source numbers for this statement:
#1 is the package insert and #8 goes to this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2710797/

The study for this statement:

is one daycare study from your Flumist Quadrivalent link So the child had all the symptoms of flu but they said it did not result in illness. My children have not been in daycare so I don't know......do daycares accept children with those symptoms and if not, why not?
Did you not see my post above? The odds of reversion to wild type influenza is 1 in 100 quintillion.

We know the risk is small because of the way the vaccine was made.

The symptoms in your last paragraph are also the symptoms of a run of the mill cold. My son is not in day care either so I have no idea what the rules are.

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#62 of 78 Old 07-17-2014, 11:53 AM
 
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Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post
I'm fortunate to not know anyone who is immunocompronised.
Lucky for you, most people here in the US have had at least one if not more family member who have had cancer, not to mention knowing a whole host of people with immune related diseases.

It very common. I know of no one that can make a statement like that here. I know no parent that does not know a child their child's age that does not have a serious immune illness, acquaintances, neighbors, within school there usually are several and teachers too. I can see people in public places and you can deal they are dealing with radiation or chemo, some cases both.
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#63 of 78 Old 07-17-2014, 12:16 PM
 
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I'm fortunate to not know anyone who is immunocompromised.
I have had plenty of immunocompromised people in my life and the advice from the treating doctors is always to avoid recently vaccinated children.

What is so dangerous about recently vaccinated children?
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#64 of 78 Old 07-17-2014, 01:19 PM
 
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Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
Did you not see my post above? The odds of reversion to wild type influenza is 1 in 100 quintillion.

We know the risk is small because of the way the vaccine was made.
Original source please, for the 1 in 100 quintillion claim.
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#65 of 78 Old 07-17-2014, 02:19 PM
 
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In my experience daycare will usually allow children to attend if they have symptoms of a mild cold. Once the child has a fever they will call for pick up.

My son couldn't attend for 2 weeks when he had chicken pox. And if a child vomits or has diarhea they are usually excluded for 48 hours. At least in the centres we've used.
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#66 of 78 Old 07-17-2014, 04:24 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by samaxtics View Post
Original source please, for the 1 in 100 quintillion claim.
This is the source they linked for that information.

Smith DB, Inglis SC. The mutation rate and variability of eukaryotic viruses: an analytical review. J Gen Virol. 1987;68(pt 11):2729–2740.

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#67 of 78 Old 07-17-2014, 07:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
This is the source they linked for that information.

Smith DB, Inglis SC. The mutation rate and variability of eukaryotic viruses: an analytical review. J Gen Virol. 1987;68(pt 11):2729–2740.
Thanks for the link but I really didn't see anything in that report that remotely looks like or addresses that quote:

Quote:
With at least 5 attenuating points in each strain, the odds of reversion to wild-type influenza are 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000,000 (one in 100 quintillion) replication cycles (1x1020 replication cycles), more than a millennium in time
And when you put that quote in the search engine there are two hits... both being that flumist pdf.

I am more inclined to believe what the CCD stated:

Quote:
Can people receiving the nasal spray flu vaccine pass the vaccine viruses to others?
Yes, but its rare. Data indicate that both children and adults vaccinated with nasal spray can shed vaccine viruses after vaccination, although in lower amounts than occur typically with shedding of wild-type influenza viruses. Rarely, shed vaccine viruses can be transmitted from vaccine recipients to unvaccinated persons. However, serious illnesses have not been reported among unvaccinated persons who have been infected inadvertently with vaccine viruses.
I don't worry about my children contracting the flu. I just think an accepted policy of vaccinating children during the school year with vaccines that shed weakens the argument for excluding non-ill non-vaccinated children from school during times of outbreaks.
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#68 of 78 Old 07-17-2014, 08:07 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by samaxtics View Post
Thanks for the link but I really didn't see anything in that report that remotely looks like or addresses that quote:



And when you put that quote in the search engine there are two hits... both being that flumist pdf.

I am more inclined to believe what the CCD stated:



I don't worry about my children contracting the flu. I just think an accepted policy of vaccinating children during the school year with vaccines that shed weakens the argument for excluding non-ill non-vaccinated children from school during times of outbreaks.
The link I posted earlier goes into this much better than I can and provides sources as well.

Notice how the CDC link says vaccine virus. That's very different than wild type virus. While the vaccine virus can be transmitted to other individuals, it has been engineered not to cause illness. The virus has to revert back to wild type to produce illness, the odds of which are 1 in 100 quintillion.

This is what the CDC says about being around immunocompromised people after receiving the flumist:

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Last edited by teacozy; 07-17-2014 at 08:30 PM.
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#69 of 78 Old 07-17-2014, 08:09 PM - Thread Starter
 
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So weird, it's not letting me copy and paste anything....

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson 
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#70 of 78 Old 07-17-2014, 08:11 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
"People who are in contact with others with severely weakened immune systems when they are being cared for in a protective environment (for example, people with hematopoietic stem cell transplants), should not get the nasal spray vaccine. People who have contact with people with weakened (but not severely weakened) immune systems due to underlying illness (e.g. diabetes, asthma, and heart disease, can get the nasal spray vaccine."
Here is the part from the CDC about being around immunocompromised people after receiving the flumist since it's not letting me paste for some reason.

Again, unless the person is so severely immunocompromised that they are in a protective environment, you don't need to worry about it.

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#71 of 78 Old 07-17-2014, 08:49 PM
 
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Transmission is not the same thing as infection. Again, the link I posted earlier goes into this and provides sources as well.

Notice how the CDC link says vaccine virus. That's very different than wild type virus. While the vaccine virus can be transmitted to other individuals, it has been engineered not to cause illness. The virus has to revert back to wild type to produce illness, the odds of which are 1 in 100 quintillion.

Again, this is what the CDC says about being around immunocompromised people after receiving the flumist:
Teacozy, you can post the same two links until the cows come home but if they don't contain or explain the 1 in 100 quintillion, that is just an unsubstantiated statement.

I clicked on and read your links. I could not find the original source where the 1 in 100 quintillion is addressed. If you know where it is please quote the passage. Maybe I'm just missing it, but I read over that review about mutations from 1987 twice and did not see it.

Also, can you explain to me how someone vaccinated with the Flumist would pose a threat to the severely immunocompromised?
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#72 of 78 Old 07-17-2014, 09:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post
I'm fortunate to not know anyone who is immunocompronised.

However if I did I would be more careful making sure we did get the flu vaccine in order to protect them. And I would probably avoid them following flumist, but more bc of the trip to the dr office and all the germ exposure that entails than the vaccine itself.
For the flu vaccine to protect people, it needs to prevent carriage and transmission, not just outright sickness. Does it? People can expose others to influenza BEFORE they are symptomatic. If the vaccine doesn't prevent carriage and transmission, then it will not protect 100%.
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#73 of 78 Old 07-17-2014, 10:49 PM
 
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The version of the virus in the vaccine is weakened and designed to induce an immune response without giving people flu. Any shedding of it likely spreads immunity not sickness.

However severely immunocompronised people may not have enough of an immune response to fight even the weakened virus and so exposure to it could make them sick.
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#74 of 78 Old 07-18-2014, 04:24 AM
 
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Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post
. Any shedding of it likely spreads immunity not sickness.
Pure speculation on your part or a source for this new found immunity?

Shedding occurring and spreading immunity now too

 

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#75 of 78 Old 07-18-2014, 07:55 AM
 
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In my experience daycare will usually allow children to attend if they have symptoms of a mild cold. Once the child has a fever they will call for pick up.

My son couldn't attend for 2 weeks when he had chicken pox. And if a child vomits or has diarhea they are usually excluded for 48 hours. At least in the centres we've used.
By the time they have a fever they may have already been contagious for up to 2 weeks (maybe more in the case of some disease like pertussis) so excluding them for 2 days at the onset of fever really doesn't do much to halt spread of illness.
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#76 of 78 Old 07-19-2014, 10:25 AM
 
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I was thinking more along the lines of a fine, or having to compensate for any medical bills that their child may have caused another child to accrue.
.
Ironic, considering that there is no fine for anyone for medical bills that a vaccine-injured person accrues, and they have to fight in a sham court against the government to prove that the vaccine actually caused their injuries.

Children who had their very first seizure within hours of a vaccine, or in that all-important 7-10 day time frame after their vaccine, are still fought against in Vaccine Court, even though that is clearly a table injury and should be compensated. The government-paid lawyers do their best to prove that it could have been anything BUT the vaccine. Even people who have won in vaccine court have gone on record to say what an absolute nightmare it was, and how badly they were treated by the system.

Yet you are suggesting that it would be simple to prove that exposure to person A resulted in person B's illness and resulting medical expenditures, regardless of any predispositions or pre-existing medical conditions.

That's not just a total double standard, that's total bs. And it really comes across as an attempt to intimidate people into vaccinating.
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#77 of 78 Old 07-19-2014, 10:32 AM
 
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What do you guys think? By disease parties I mean chickenpox/measles/rubella/etc parties.

Is it ethical to deliberately try and expose a child to an infectious disease? Should it even be legal to do so?

If not, what should the "punishment" be for doing so?

If a parent deliberately infected a child with chickenpox and then exposed a baby too young to be vaccinated in public and they got seriously ill, should the parent have to pay for the medical bills?

Discuss.
Going back to your OP, is it ethical to inject a child with vaccines that are known to have directly caused autoimmune disorders, seizures, paralysis, brain damage, and deaths? Should it even be legal to do so?

If not what should the "punishment" be for doing so?

If a doctor went against a parent's wishes and deliberately injected a child with a vaccine, and then vaccinated a baby too young or too immunocompromised to properly excrete the aluminum and./or thimerosal and got seriously ill, should the doctor have to pay for the medical bills?
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#78 of 78 Old 07-19-2014, 11:44 AM
 
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Ironic, considering that there is no fine for anyone for medical bills that a vaccine-injured person accrues, and they have to fight in a sham court against the government to prove that the vaccine actually caused their injuries.

Children who had their very first seizure within hours of a vaccine, or in that all-important 7-10 day time frame after their vaccine, are still fought against in Vaccine Court, even though that is clearly a table injury and should be compensated. The government-paid lawyers do their best to prove that it could have been anything BUT the vaccine. Even people who have won in vaccine court have gone on record to say what an absolute nightmare it was, and how badly they were treated by the system.

Yet you are suggesting that it would be simple to prove that exposure to person A resulted in person B's illness and resulting medical expenditures, regardless of any predispositions or pre-existing medical conditions.

That's not just a total double standard, that's total bs. And it really comes across as an attempt to intimidate people into vaccinating.
It's absolute BS said with the intention to intimidate. I don't think these sue happy people even hear themselves talk.
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