Having a reaction to a vaccine and becoming anti/non vaccine - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 61 Old 07-25-2014, 12:00 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Having a reaction to a vaccine and becoming anti/non vaccine

I remember reading something on the INV forum a while ago that linked an article about a man who had a rare reaction to the flu vaccine and there were some comments about how surprised people were that at the end of the video he says he is not against vaccines.

My question is why does that surprise you?

My grandfather was severely allergic to penicillin, he came about as close to death as you can get after taking it.

He was never anti penicillin or anti antibiotics, though. He recognized that penicillin is still an amazing life saving drug for the vast majority of people.

I don't see mothers whose children have food allergies becoming anti peanuts, anti shrimp, anti lobster, anti crab or anti strawberries, do you? That would be pretty strange in my opinion. Those foods are delicious and can and are enjoyed by the vast majority of the population.

If my son had a rare and bad reaction to a vaccine tomorrow, that wouldn't change how I feel about them in a general sense.

I guess I just don't get it.

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#2 of 61 Old 07-25-2014, 12:34 PM
 
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I think the thing is is this-

Non vax parents gets called anti vax when in reality many are not anti vax. Many are simply pro vax choice and pro more research and testing of vax or simply vax critical until changes are made.

So while some might really be anti vax I think many people are mislabeled.
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#3 of 61 Old 07-25-2014, 12:36 PM
 
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I don't remember the thread, but I will take your word for it.

I don't think the bad reaction in and of itself turns someone from pro-vax to "anti-vax", although it might make them personally non-vax: just as a person with a nut allergy avoids nuts, a person who experiences a bad reaction to a vaccine might avoid vaccines.

Having a vaccine reaction might spark research and from there one might become vaccine critical or even anti-vax.

I imagine whether they morph into vaccine critical might depend on whether they felt fully informed when they made the decision to vaccinate. It is easier to own and be at peace with the decision and its consequences when you can own it fully, and not feel deceived.

I also suspect that many (if not most/all) of those who are vaccine critics are vaccine critics because of rules around exemptions, coersion, compensation, supression of information, etc, etc. If there were no politics involved, it would really come down to "you do you, and I will do me" but sadly, it isn't that way.

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#4 of 61 Old 07-25-2014, 01:55 PM
 
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I grew up in an anti-vaccine family, but I didn't become really against vaccinations until I did a few years of research.

Here is an example of the sort of situation that turned me from feeling that everyone should just make up their own mind to feeling that the pro-vaccine side (the official, not the individual) has to be reined back because otherwise there is no limit to how far they'll go. http://www.wtrf.com/story/17004311/p...ccinating-kids

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"I received a letter from the Marshall County Health Department, saying that their Health Officer had reviewed my sons letter of exemption written by the immunization department at Pittsburgh Children's Hospital," says Raymer. "they didn't find it significant enough reason for him to not be vaccinated with the D-Tap vaccine and that he would have to leave school."
Claudia's 5-year-old son Alex has an underlying condition that can be triggered by certain vaccinations and cause his kidney's to fail.
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#5 of 61 Old 07-25-2014, 02:19 PM
 
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I don't care whether people use vaccines or not. I'm not anti-vaccine.

Years of research after my son's vaccine injuries has brought me to the conclusion that I would not get a vaccine ever again and during the time I am the person to make the medical choices for my children, they won't be getting any either.

But you know, if you want them, fill yer boots. Just don't try to force them on me.

If this is the case I am thinking of, and if I was injured by a vaccine like that man (rare, sure) and it became public whilst I was waiting for a payout, it would be easy for me to say "I'm not against vaccines".

But in my head that would be followed with "for those who want them".
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#6 of 61 Old 07-25-2014, 03:03 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm not making the argument that non vaxxers are trying to force or keep other people from vaccinating their kids (after all, they have nothing to gain by other kids being unvaccinated, only something to lose) but the modern anti vax movement goes way beyond just not wanting to give your individual child vaccines.

My definition of non/anti vaccine is someone who thinks vaccines are in general toxic and a bad idea and do more harm than good for most children.

Meaning, if a person you just met came up to you and asked "what is your opinion on vaccines? Do you think I should vaccinate my child?" I think most of the non vaccinating members here would ultimately advise them against it.

So it's very different from a parent who is just opposed to giving their one individual child peanuts or lobster. Those parents are not against those things in a general sense like parents whose kids have had a vaccine reaction.

This was the thread I was talking about. So it was a pertussis vaccine, not the flu vaccine. Vaccination Nightmare: Whooping Cough Vaccine Almost Killed Perth Father

"I am surprised that they are not against vaccination as stressed at the end of the interview."

"I think they had to add that at the end or else the media wouldn't touch it...I mean, it looks unusual when you've suffered an injury to that scale and are saying, "I almost died, but I still support vaccines."

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#7 of 61 Old 07-25-2014, 03:50 PM
 
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Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
I'm not making the argument that non vaxxers are trying to force or keep other people from vaccinating their kids (after all, they have nothing to gain by other kids being unvaccinated, only something to lose) but the modern anti vax movement goes way beyond just not wanting to give your individual child vaccines.

My definition of non/anti vaccine is someone who thinks vaccines are in general toxic and a bad idea and do more harm than good for most children.

Meaning, if a person you just met came up to you and asked "what is your opinion on vaccines? Do you think I should vaccinate my child?" I think most of the non vaccinating members here would ultimately advise them against it.

So it's very different from a parent who is just opposed to giving their one individual child peanuts or lobster. Those parents are not against those things in a general sense like parents whose kids have had a vaccine reaction.

This was the thread I was talking about. So it was a pertussis vaccine, not the flu vaccine. Vaccination Nightmare: Whooping Cough Vaccine Almost Killed Perth Father

"I am surprised that they are not against vaccination as stressed at the end of the interview."

"I think they had to add that at the end or else the media wouldn't touch it...I mean, it looks unusual when you've suffered an injury to that scale and are saying, "I almost died, but I still support vaccines."
I don't know of any modern anti-vaccine movement. Do you have a name for this organization?

I don't know of any organization that is trying to eliminate vaccines across the board. Do you know of one and if so, what is their name?

I don't know of anyone who wants to not only make the health decisions for their own children, but for other people. Do you know of anyone from the non-vaccinating position who has publicly claimed a desire to make health choices for other people?

You can think whatever you like, but how did you come to your opinion that people on this forum who choose not to vaccinate would counsel people to do the same?

I'm also questioning the practice of bringing comments over from the INV forum and expecting people here to explain or defend those comments.
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#8 of 61 Old 07-25-2014, 04:07 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by samaxtics View Post
I don't know of any modern anti-vaccine movement. Do you have a name for this organization?

I don't know of any organization that is trying to eliminate vaccines across the board. Do you know of one and if so, what is their name?

I don't know of anyone who wants to not only make the health decisions for their own children, but for other people. Do you know of anyone from the non-vaccinating position who has publicly claimed a desire to make health choices for other people?

You can think whatever you like, but how did you come to your opinion that people on this forum who choose not to vaccinate would counsel people to do the same?

I'm also questioning the practice of bringing comments over from the INV forum and expecting people here to explain or defend those comments.
Did you not read the first sentence of the post you quoted?

I'm not asking anyone to defend or explain those statement, I didn't even post names. Kathy said she didn't recall the thread, so I posted it.

Things I've said in other threads have been quoted and linked more times than I can count on this forum. Is it against the rules? If it is I had no idea.

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#9 of 61 Old 07-25-2014, 04:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
I'm not making the argument that non vaxxers are trying to force or keep other people from vaccinating their kids (after all, they have nothing to gain by other kids being unvaccinated, only something to lose) but the modern anti vax movement goes way beyond just not wanting to give your individual child vaccines.

My definition of non/anti vaccine is someone who thinks vaccines are in general toxic and a bad idea and do more harm than good for most children.

Meaning, if a person you just met came up to you and asked "what is your opinion on vaccines? Do you think I should vaccinate my child?" I think most of the non vaccinating members here would ultimately advise them against it.

So it's very different from a parent who is just opposed to giving their one individual child peanuts or lobster. Those parents are not against those things in a general sense like parents whose kids have had a vaccine reaction.

This was the thread I was talking about. So it was a pertussis vaccine, not the flu vaccine. Vaccination Nightmare: Whooping Cough Vaccine Almost Killed Perth Father

"I am surprised that they are not against vaccination as stressed at the end of the interview."

"I think they had to add that at the end or else the media wouldn't touch it...I mean, it looks unusual when you've suffered an injury to that scale and are saying, "I almost died, but I still support vaccines."
Okay so are you asking why anyone would be shocked that someone had a vaccination and didn't turn anti-vax just because of a reaction or are you questioning the anti-vax movement in general? The bolded part is why I ask. I don't understand the issue here. Are you offended that an anti-vax parent would share their opinion with another parent? It doesn't matter what the topic is - vaccination, breastfeeding, birth choice, schooling, clothing, etc. - if a parent asked me a question about my opinion on X for the kids I'd tell them my opinion. My sharing an opinion doesn't force them to follow my advice or adhere to my opinion. I don't see how a parent sharing an opinion (requested opinion!) is agenda pushing no matter what the topic is or what the parent's viewpoint is. If I'm questioning whether to vaccinate my children and I walk up to you and ask your opinion on the topic then that's me requesting information - whether you are pro or anti vax. IF you walk up to me on the street randomly because you see I'm pregnant or have a child and begin sharing your (unrequested) opinion on the topic with me then THAT's agenda pushing. There's a very big difference between the two.

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#10 of 61 Old 07-25-2014, 04:15 PM
 
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Here is the original quote:

Originally Posted by japonica
I think they had to add that at the end or else the media wouldn't touch it. There's a heated "war" on people who are "anti-vax" over here and anyone who writes, publishes, or speaks about any concern over vaccines has to put the qualifier in or else any moderate support in the general public vanishes. Last I heard, Dorey needed extra security because of death threats.

I mean, it looks unusual when you've suffered an injury to that scale and are saying, "I almost died, but I still support vaccines."

Japonica is selective/delayed. She is not anti-vax in any way, as far as I know. She also lives in Australia, where the incident took place. I trust her judgement on the climate there.

I do think it is possible for someone to experience a vaccine reaction and still be pro-vax…..but I think it is unlikely. Being pro-vax, at least in some circles, is about more than just thinking the science behind vaccines is sound and vaccines are rare. It is about using coersive tactics to get people to vaccinate - everything from dismissing reactions, to ad hominem attacks to thinking medical exemptions (which can be very difficult to get) should be the only reason to allow an unvaxxed child in school. It would be hard to witness a vaccine reaction and then turn around and sing the glories of vaccines or self identify as a pro-vaxxer, I think.

ETA: Here is linking showing vaxxers dismissing vaccine reactions.

http://www.voicesforvaccines.org/vac...-the-internet/
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#11 of 61 Old 07-25-2014, 04:17 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Okay so are you asking why anyone would be shocked that someone had a vaccination and didn't turn anti-vax just because of a reaction or are you questioning the anti-vax movement in general? The bolded part is why I ask. I don't understand the issue here. Are you offended that an anti-vax parent would share their opinion with another parent? It doesn't matter what the topic is - vaccination, breastfeeding, birth choice, schooling, clothing, etc. - if a parent asked me a question about my opinion on X for the kids I'd tell them my opinion. My sharing an opinion doesn't force them to follow my advice or adhere to my opinion. I don't see how a parent sharing an opinion (requested opinion!) is agenda pushing no matter what the topic is or what the parent's viewpoint is. If I'm questioning whether to vaccinate my children and I walk up to you and ask your opinion on the topic then that's me requesting information - whether you are pro or anti vax. IF you walk up to me on the street randomly because you see I'm pregnant or have a child and begin sharing your (unrequested) opinion on the topic with me then THAT's agenda pushing. There's a very big difference between the two.
No, not offended at all.

I was responding to the idea that non vaxxers are only non vax when it comes to their kids. Some were trying to compare it to a parent that is against peanuts for their child who has a peanut allergy, which isn't an accurate comparison.

It's different because most of those parents aren't against peanuts or lobster in a general sense like non vaccinating parents are against vaccines.

Anyway, have to go for a bit

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#12 of 61 Old 07-25-2014, 04:20 PM
 
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Originally Posted by teacozy View Post

Things I've said in other threads have been quoted and linked more times than I can count on this forum. Is it against the rules? If it is I had no idea.
I think I did it to you last week.

We are not allowed to post on each others subforums, so sometimes resort to bringing issues to the main page. I am not sure it is great, but it seems the lesser of two evils.

I think there is a huge thread of "board management issues" where we could discuss this if anyone likes (yes, this is my way of saying "lets not go OT")
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#13 of 61 Old 07-25-2014, 04:25 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I do think it is possible for someone to experience a vaccine reaction and still be pro-vax…..but I think it is unlikely. Being pro-vax, at least in some circles, is about more than just thinking the science behind vaccines is sound and vaccines are rare. It is about using coersive tactics to get people to vaccinate - everything from dismissing reactions, to ad hominem attacks to thinking medical exemptions (which can be very difficult to get) should be the only reason to allow an unvaxxed child in school. It would be hard to witness a vaccine reaction and then turn around and sing the glories of vaccines or self identify as a pro-vaxxer, I think.
That is my question. Why is that? I would absolutely still be 100% pro vaccine if my son had an allergic reaction to a vaccine tomorrow. For me, it's no different than my grandfather being allergic and suffering a nearly deadly reaction to penicillin. Everything has risks. He wouldn't dream of being "anti penicillin" in general.

Putting aside that we don't agree on what is and isn't a vaccine reaction, I still see this sentiment with CDC listed vaccine side effects. "My child suffered a febrile seizure after X vaccine, I never looked at vaccines in a positive light again after that." (note, this is not a direct quote. I've just seen this kind of statement a lot on sites and in comment sections etc)

Paul Offit's daughter also had a febrile seizure after a vaccine. He is certainly not anti vaccine.

Again, I just don't get it.

Ok, now I really have to go!

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No, not offended at all.

I was responding to the idea that non vaxxers are only non vax when it comes to their kids. Some were trying to compare it to a parent that is against peanuts for their child who has a peanut allergy, which isn't an accurate comparison.

It's different because most of those parents aren't against peanuts or lobster in a general sense like non vaccinating parents are against vaccines.

Anyway, have to go for a bit
Okay I see your point. No I don't think that vaccination or any other similar topic with opinions (breastfeeding, circ, etc.) can be related to an allergy. To me an allergy is not a choice so I can't form an opinion about that or share that opinion with anyone else. I don't have a choice in my child being peanut allergic and you don't have a choice to have a peanut allergic kid with me or to not have one. I could see it being similar to something like fast food though. I could form an opinion about whether or not fast food is safe and the reasons why I think I should/can give it to my kids or why I shouldn't/can't give it to my kids. I have a choice in the matter and so you do. We could both form opinions on the topic and discuss them together. I'm sure that's the type of relevance the op of the post you're talking about meant. If we use the fast food analogy though then yes a parent can be against fast food in the same way one could be against vaccination. For every decision a parent has to make for their children though they will have a reason they came to the conclusion they did. That reason may be why that individual parent is on side A on topic X but it doesn't mean they have an agenda to push and expect others to follow them.
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#15 of 61 Old 07-25-2014, 04:33 PM
 
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Imagine newborn children are routinely given something at the hospital containing peanuts. Then, a few months later, they go back to the doctor and receive more peanut products. This continues for years, according to the schedule.

Now, imagine a parent who has a child with a peanut allergy. Wouldn't that parent most likely warn others about the danger of giving peanut products to infants? Maybe there is no way to know if the baby would react to peanuts, and maybe the reaction rate is rare. However, a parent with a peanut-injured child would probably warn others, and encourage them to wait until the baby is older before giving peanuts.

This could explain the phenomenon of parents wanting to warn others about vaccine injuries. Provax parents do the same thing--only they warn others about VPDs instead of vaccine reactions. It's a common theme, the desire to warn others about potential danger. It is no mystery.

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#16 of 61 Old 07-25-2014, 05:01 PM
 
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That is my question. Why is that? I would absolutely still be 100% pro vaccine if my son had an allergic reaction to a vaccine tomorrow. For me, it's no different than my grandfather being allergic and suffering a nearly deadly reaction to penicillin. Everything has risks. He wouldn't dream of being "anti penicillin" in general.

Putting aside that we don't agree on what is and isn't a vaccine reaction, I still see this sentiment with CDC listed vaccine side effects. "My child suffered a febrile seizure after X vaccine, I never looked at vaccines in a positive light again after that." (note, this is not a direct quote. I've just seen this kind of statement a lot on sites and in comment sections etc)

Paul Offit's daughter also had a febrile seizure after a vaccine. He is certainly not anti vaccine.

Again, I just don't get it.

Ok, now I really have to go!
I do understand what you're saying here. The big point here is STANCE. When an issue comes up that can have differing values/opinions choosing a stance will put you on a side such as being pro/anti X (vax, circ, bfing, etc.). There are a lot of people though that don't pick a side.

I wouldn't expect a pro-vaxer to all of a sudden become anti-vax just because of a reaction just like I wouldn't expect an anti-vaxer to all of a sudden become pro-vax just because one vaccine didn't cause a reaction. I could see how a middle layer that didn't have a real opinion either way and hadn't picked a side to "become anti-vax" once they'd had a reaction though if they felt the reaction proved that vaccines weren't a good idea for them. I still don't see how this becomes agenda though and really depends on who you count as part of a group. I know plenty of people that vaccinate but I wouldn't call most of them "pro-vax" as they don't have a true opinion on the matter. They are merely doing what their doctor said with no personal decision making on their part. These people are often very mainstream and follow a mainstream lifestyle which includes following the advice of their pediatrician. They therefore have no agenda to push or opinion on the matter to make them an anti/pro person. I think the same can be said of the anti-vax person as well. Some people are very non-invasive and decide not to follow mainstream medicine. Think of the Amish here. They don't use mainstream medicine as a general rule but does this make them anti-vax because they don't vax? I wouldn't think so... not in the anti vs pro discussion. Just because they don't vax doesn't make them an agenda pushing anti-vaxer anymore than a parent that gets a vaccine solely at their advice of their trusted doctor is an agenda pushing pro-vaxer.

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#17 of 61 Old 07-25-2014, 05:01 PM
 
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That is my question. Why is that? I would absolutely still be 100% pro vaccine if my son had an allergic reaction to a vaccine tomorrow. For me, it's no different than my grandfather being allergic and suffering a nearly deadly reaction to penicillin. Everything has risks. He wouldn't dream of being "anti penicillin" in general.

:
I am not sure penicillin is the greatest analogy. I am not trying to be difficult, btw. Penicillin is given to sick people for a bacterial infection; vaccines are typically given to well people for a disease they do not have (and will likely never encounter - yes some of that might be thanks to vaccines, but certainly not all)

There are also people who are opposed to antibiotics, at least the over-use of them for minor conditions, and do warn others of this.
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#18 of 61 Old 07-25-2014, 05:11 PM
 
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I am not sure penicillin is the greatest analogy.
Also, some people are allergic to penicillin. If someone suffered a life threatening penicillin reaction, could you understand why they would warn others? Maybe they would want to warn others about the possible danger, and encourage them to find out if they are allergic before finding out the hard way.

(Is there even a penicillin test? My DH is allergic, and knows this because he had a bad reaction as a child. Funny, he took penicillin, swelled up and became ill, and nobody questioned his mother when she said he had a reaction! They didn't try to blame everything else under the sun except the penicillin. Things are a lot different when it comes to vaccines though. Nobody is allergic to any ingredient in a vaccine!)

 
 
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#19 of 61 Old 07-25-2014, 05:28 PM
 
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Originally Posted by beckybird View Post
Also, some people are allergic to penicillin. If someone suffered a life threatening penicillin reaction, could you understand why they would warn others? Maybe they would want to warn others about the possible danger, and encourage them to find out if they are allergic before finding out the hard way.

(Is there even a penicillin test? My DH is allergic, and knows this because he had a bad reaction as a child. Funny, he took penicillin, swelled up and became ill, and nobody questioned his mother when she said he had a reaction! They didn't try to blame everything else under the sun except the penicillin. Things are a lot different when it comes to vaccines though. Nobody is allergic to any ingredient in a vaccine!)
This is a very good point. My dd did have reactions to her vaccinations but of course they were brushed off. Not severe enough, considered normal, probably not from the vaccine, blah, blah, blah. When she broke out in a rash after having Bactrim it was instantly diagnosed as an allergic reaction with no concern over anything else she'd done or been around or the fact that another boy in her class was also getting a rash.

Honestly even knowing that it is an allergic reaction I would still warn others about the Bactrim. If you were to tell me your dd was going to take it I'd tell you "Okay watch her after you give it to her b/c my dd did X after getting it. Just in case." I didn't expect dd to have a reaction to the Bactrim like she did and was surprised by it. I wouldn't want another parent to be alarmed that way if a simple mention of the possible reaction could help prepare them if something did happen. I would let the parent know what my experience was so that on the off chance their child reacted to it as well they wouldn't be scared by the reaction. That doesn't mean I'm anti-Bactrim though or anti-antibiotics.
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#20 of 61 Old 07-25-2014, 05:47 PM
 
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I do not appreciate being told by someone who does not know me what I believe.

I would never tell anyone to vaccinate or not to vaccinate; I would tell them to do their own study of the subject and make up their own mind.

The time that a vaccinating person's vaccine decision would violate me would be if they went around shedding a live virus from a recent vaccine or spreading pertussis. Just because doctors do not look for or document these cases does not mean that it does not happen.

I grew up in a non-vaccinating family because of a death in the family from a vaccination. How many people in a family need to die or react before foregoing vaccination is considered the right way? I have been told by persons who do NOT know me that my relative did NOT die from a vaccine reaction, that I think he died from a vaccine reaction. Honestly, that is what is on the death certificate signed by the doctor; I know that doctors will lie about causes of death, but why do people decide FOR ME what really happened. What is wrong with people?

As for penicillin, that is not a very good analogy since no one will be denied employment or schooling or other activity because they have not taken penicillin.

But if anyone wants to take penicillin, go ahead. Hope it works for you.
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#21 of 61 Old 07-25-2014, 06:48 PM
 
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Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
Did you not read the first sentence of the post you quoted?

I'm not asking anyone to defend or explain those statement, I didn't even post names. Kathy said she didn't recall the thread, so I posted it.

Things I've said in other threads have been quoted and linked more times than I can count on this forum. Is it against the rules? If it is I had no idea.


Some people are comfortable only posting in their support forum and don't expect to be quoted in other forums especially when it is used by the someone who is not in agreement and/or leaving it open to misinterpretation. You could have left it just by linking to the thread.

I guess the name of that anti-vaccine movement is the Phantom movement.
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#22 of 61 Old 07-25-2014, 07:08 PM
 
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Many good points.

I think vaccine critics are made and that they are mostly made by the vaccine enthusiasts.

Denial of vaccine reactions is a big player. If vaccine reactions were acknowledged, recorded, treated as valid causes for concern, if doctors said "okay, from now on we will give one vaccine at a time and watch your child very cautiously" or "that was a very severe vaccine reaction, I think your baby should NOT receive any more vaccines" people would be less likely to become vaccine critics. What "turns" people is being run over by the vaccine train, IMO.
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#23 of 61 Old 07-26-2014, 01:02 AM
 
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Originally Posted by beckybird View Post
Imagine newborn children are routinely given something at the hospital containing peanuts. Then, a few months later, they go back to the doctor and receive more peanut products. This continues for years, according to the schedule.

Now, imagine a parent who has a child with a peanut allergy. Wouldn't that parent most likely warn others about the danger of giving peanut products to infants? Maybe there is no way to know if the baby would react to peanuts, and maybe the reaction rate is rare. However, a parent with a peanut-injured child would probably warn others, and encourage them to wait until the baby is older before giving peanuts.

This could explain the phenomenon of parents wanting to warn others about vaccine injuries. Provax parents do the same thing--only they warn others about VPDs instead of vaccine reactions. It's a common theme, the desire to warn others about potential danger. It is no mystery.

**I do not respect anything Paul Offit has to say about health or nutrition. I do not find him to be an authority on ANYTHING health related. **
You picked a bad example. The AAP has done a 180 on early peanut exposure. There is good evidence that avoiding peanut early oral exposure causes peanut allergy. It's even a credible theory that peanut allergy runs in families because each generation warns the next to avoid the early introduction of peanuts.
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#24 of 61 Old 07-26-2014, 04:36 AM
 
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That's fine. Pick another food then, and use that as an example. I think you missed the point, where a one size fits all approach might not be the best idea for everybody.

The AAP has changed its recommendation? So they do change....maybe someday we'll see a change in some of their other bad recommendations
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#25 of 61 Old 07-26-2014, 08:24 AM
 
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I'm not making the argument that non vaxxers are trying to force or keep other people from vaccinating their kids (after all, they have nothing to gain by other kids being unvaccinated, only something to lose) but the modern anti vax movement goes way beyond just not wanting to give your individual child vaccines.
What would we have to lose by other children not being vaccinated? Seems to me that people who consciously choose to not vaccinate aren't depending on those who do no matter how many times that urban legend gets repeated.

Again, what anti-vax movement....actually maybe we should get your definition of "movement". Are you defining "movement" as people doing the same thing but not organized as a group? And how are they going way beyond just not vaccinating their own children? And how could they do that if they are not organized?

I get that you are busy, but I think these questions need to be answered before the debate can really move forward.
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#26 of 61 Old 07-26-2014, 09:05 AM
 
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There is a choice movement in the US, arguing against stringent vaccine exemption laws. But that movement is definitely not anti-vaccine as many of the people who want choice do vaccinate and plan to continue vaccinating. I'm a member of the Vermont Coalition for Vaccine Choice, for example.
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#27 of 61 Old 07-26-2014, 05:59 PM
 
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I remember reading something on the INV forum a while ago that linked an article about a man who had a rare reaction to the flu vaccine and there were some comments about how surprised people were that at the end of the video he says he is not against vaccines.

My question is why does that surprise you?

My grandfather was severely allergic to penicillin, he came about as close to death as you can get after taking it.

He was never anti penicillin or anti antibiotics, though. He recognized that penicillin is still an amazing life saving drug for the vast majority of people.

I don't see mothers whose children have food allergies becoming anti peanuts, anti shrimp, anti lobster, anti crab or anti strawberries, do you? That would be pretty strange in my opinion. Those foods are delicious and can and are enjoyed by the vast majority of the population.

If my son had a rare and bad reaction to a vaccine tomorrow, that wouldn't change how I feel about them in a general sense.

I guess I just don't get it.
1. No one is trying to make your grandfather fill out exemptions to go to school because he can't take penicillin. No one is calling him a threat to society.
2. People accept and believe that he had a rare but real reaction
3. I didn't come up with the term "anti-vaccine", and it seems only those in the pro-vax camp say anyone who doesn't vaccinate is "anti-vaccine"

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#28 of 61 Old 07-26-2014, 07:01 PM
 
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I'm not making the argument that non vaxxers are trying to force or keep other people from vaccinating their kids (after all, they have nothing to gain by other kids being unvaccinated, only something to lose) but the modern anti vax movement goes way beyond just not wanting to give your individual child vaccines.

My definition of non/anti vaccine is someone who thinks vaccines are in general toxic and a bad idea and do more harm than good for most children.

Meaning, if a person you just met came up to you and asked "what is your opinion on vaccines? Do you think I should vaccinate my child?" I think most of the non vaccinating members here would ultimately advise them against it.

So it's very different from a parent who is just opposed to giving their one individual child peanuts or lobster. Those parents are not against those things in a general sense like parents whose kids have had a vaccine reaction.

This was the thread I was talking about. So it was a pertussis vaccine, not the flu vaccine. Vaccination Nightmare: Whooping Cough Vaccine Almost Killed Perth Father

"I am surprised that they are not against vaccination as stressed at the end of the interview."

"I think they had to add that at the end or else the media wouldn't touch it...I mean, it looks unusual when you've suffered an injury to that scale and are saying, "I almost died, but I still support vaccines."

I'm not going through all the old posts, but I would guess 9/10 people on here who don't vaccinate stress that those seeking advice do research. They point them to studies, and to some mainstream and not so mainstream sites. I, for one, point people to the Pink books at the CDC site and graphs on the WHO site. I have sent out countless emails to people and they all say to research the subject before making a decision. I do generally advise people to skip the Hep B shot at birth if they are certain the mother doesn't have it; otherwise, I can't say I've ever told a person they shouldn't vaccinate.
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#29 of 61 Old 07-26-2014, 07:13 PM
 
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That is my question. Why is that? I would absolutely still be 100% pro vaccine if my son had an allergic reaction to a vaccine tomorrow. For me, it's no different than my grandfather being allergic and suffering a nearly deadly reaction to penicillin. Everything has risks. He wouldn't dream of being "anti penicillin" in general.

Putting aside that we don't agree on what is and isn't a vaccine reaction, I still see this sentiment with CDC listed vaccine side effects. "My child suffered a febrile seizure after X vaccine, I never looked at vaccines in a positive light again after that." (note, this is not a direct quote. I've just seen this kind of statement a lot on sites and in comment sections etc)

Paul Offit's daughter also had a febrile seizure after a vaccine. He is certainly not anti vaccine.

Again, I just don't get it.

Ok, now I really have to go!
But you don't know. Thankfully, your child has not had any reactions to vaccines, and that's wonderful. If he did, depending on the severity of the reaction, you might change your mind; you might read the info with new eyes, you might actually come to the darkside. That's what happened to me. I was vaccinating. My child had a non-life threatening but life altering autoimmune reaction to her 2 month shots (she had none at birth); that caused me to become a non vaccinator, and one who doesn't think reactions are as rare as touted. Please trust me when I tell you that you do not know how you would respond to something that hasn't happened to you, when it actually has happened to many of us here. I get what you are saying, but you truly have no idea what it is like.

"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect." ~Mark Twain

 


 
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#30 of 61 Old 07-26-2014, 07:32 PM
 
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I think part of the reason people turn against vaccines and quit vaxing after a reaction is because of the way doctors respond, i.e., treating it as something not serious, something normal, something that doesn't require a modification of the vaccine schedule.

This made me wonder how the liability issue affects doctor's behavior. They CANNOT be sued for continuing to vaccinate according to the recommended schedule even if the baby dies or becomes permanently disabled. However, they can be sued if they spread out the vaccines, skip vaccines, or recommend stopping altogether. I'm pretty sure that a family whose child became seriously ill from a so-called "vaccine preventable disease" COULD sue a doctor who recommended against continuing to vaccinate because of a reaction. It is unlikely that such a family would sue, but they could, I think.

It is a weirdly unbalanced situation.

Although some of the issues around medical interventions in childbirth are similar, right?
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