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#1 of 78 Old 07-28-2014, 05:44 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Lightbulb Vaccine defenses one after another

On another thread we were discussing why people decide to reject vaccines after a reaction, whereas people don't reject, for example, automobiles after they are in an accident.

I said that I thought one factor was that the pro-vaccine explanations of why vaccine reactions are:

1) not really reactions
2) not really something to worry about
3) necessary (your immune system is responding and this is good)
4) all other explanations

don't look very good when seen one after another. There is a pattern and it looks like an attempt to explain away anything that appears to be connected in a negative way to a vaccination.

So I wanted to start a thread for sharing some of these explanations from the vaccine promoters, both for reference and also to see if I'm right and they do look funky when piled up in a heap in one "room".
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#2 of 78 Old 07-28-2014, 05:50 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Here is a good example, not from an official source, but fairly well argued. He also quotes quite a lot of the available science on the topic. There is a serious problem with the argument and I'm curious to see how many people will spot it. http://jdc325.wordpress.com/2010/06/...ence-and-sids/
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#3 of 78 Old 07-28-2014, 05:54 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Here is another one, different vaccine, same theme. http://www.forbes.com/sites/matthewh...ed-100-people/
Quote:
And there is no way to tell if a particular side effect is linked to the vaccine. Some people will die after any vaccination, not because vaccines cause death but because people, even babies and adolescents, die with terrible regularity.
See what I mean about patterns and piles?
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#4 of 78 Old 07-28-2014, 05:57 PM - Thread Starter
 
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And here is another one. Different vaccine, same argument. http://www.dailytitan.com/2014/04/au...f-vaccination/
Quote:
An autism diagnosis is often given around the same time an MMR vaccine is administered. Ninety percent of children in England received the vaccine during the time of the study, according to the AAP, so it is expected that children with a diagnosis of autism would have received an MMR vaccine recently.
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#5 of 78 Old 07-28-2014, 07:14 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Time for a discussion of vaccine reactions--
http://www.babycenter.com/404_how-ca...a-vac_11477.bc

Quote:
And the DTaP vaccine causes some babies (1 in 1,000) to cry inconsolably for several hours.
Note that there is no explanation that this might indicate any real problem.

http://www.aboutkidshealth.ca/En/Hea...e-effects.aspx

http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/im/iyc-vv...ction6-eng.php
Quote:
You know your baby best. So if you notice anything that isn't normal for her after an immunization, it's always a good idea to check with your doctor or public health office
this one is a bit ironic...

http://www.nytimes.com/health/guides.../overview.html
Quote:
ABNORMAL REACTION TO DTaP IMMUNIZATION
  • Unrelieved crying
  • High-pitched cry
  • Unusual shock-like syndrome
    • Unresponsiveness
    • Hypotonia (limp/decreased tone)
  • Marked increase in sleeping time
  • Persistent high fever (104 degrees Fahrenheit or greater)
  • Seizure or convulsion
and this
Quote:
Very few children who receive standard childhood vaccines develop significant problems following immunization. For children who develop problems, standard fever care and a call to the health care provider for reassurance often suffice.
I think every single one of these sources used the word "rare" when discussing reactions...
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#6 of 78 Old 07-30-2014, 06:12 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Here are some on "delaying" vaccinations. I want to introduce this series by pointing out that different countries in the world have different schedules and by the US standards they delay or avoid various vaccinations. So it would have been easy for the scientists to do a comparative study of say Austria versus the US or Norway versus the US and get a big picture of what happens when some vaccines are skipped or delayed. There is also the odd use of the word science. Doctors in Norway don't understand science?

http://www.immunizeforgood.com/fact-...layed-schedule
Quote:
A lot of thought and science goes into determining the current recommended vaccine schedule. Doctors and health experts select what vaccines to give at what times based on the amount of risk a child has to a particular disease. We vaccinate young babies because they are most vulnerable to disease in infancy.
Vaccines are also tested to work together to best protect your child's health. The CDC vaccine schedule is designed to give your child the greatest protection possible.
Quote:
Researchers have weighed the risk to young children of having a reaction against that of catching one of these serious illnesses and concluded that the benefits far outweigh the risks.
http://www.babycenter.com/404_what-a...s-unt_11210.bc

Quote:
The recommended vaccine schedule is based on years of safety and effectiveness data; in fact, more data than is required of any medication. The schedule is also informed by data about the disease, such as who is at highest risk and when. Vaccines are recommended at certain times to optimize effectiveness (aka to ensure a good response is achieved) and to ensure protection when a child is most at risk for getting sick.

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/p...udH9jmOjHZV.99

There is just no way around it. If the US schedule is "just right" then all the other countries with different schedules and fewer vaccines are just plain wrong.
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#7 of 78 Old 07-30-2014, 06:20 AM
 
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Deborah…I am usually game to play, but it is escaping me what you are doing.

Do you want us to post "excuses" about vaccine failure?

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#8 of 78 Old 07-30-2014, 06:38 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deborah View Post
On another thread we were discussing why people decide to reject vaccines after a reaction, whereas people don't reject, for example, automobiles after they are in an accident.

I said that I thought one factor was that the pro-vaccine explanations of why vaccine reactions are:

1) not really reactions
2) not really something to worry about
3) necessary (your immune system is responding and this is good)
4) all other explanations

don't look very good when seen one after another. There is a pattern and it looks like an attempt to explain away anything that appears to be connected in a negative way to a vaccination.

So I wanted to start a thread for sharing some of these explanations from the vaccine promoters, both for reference and also to see if I'm right and they do look funky when piled up in a heap in one "room".
#2 looks like an attempt to explain away something that appears to be connected in a negative way to a vaccination because it is an attempt to explain away something that is connected in a negative way to a vaccination. Explain it away in the sense of explaining that it's not a reason to stop vaccinating.

#2 is also obviously true for some things, and intelligent parents know this before they get any vaccinations.

Same goes for #3

There are worse things than a sore arm given that someone dies from the measles every 5 minutes, usually a kid under 5.
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#9 of 78 Old 07-30-2014, 07:42 AM
 
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Originally Posted by tadamsmar View Post
#2 looks like an attempt to explain away something that appears to be connected in a negative way to a vaccination because it is an attempt to explain away something that is connected in a negative way to a vaccination. Explain it away in the sense of explaining that it's not a reason to stop vaccinating.
.
Most people are not worried about temporary sore arms or even low grade fevers/fussiness. That is a bit of a myth.

They worry about serious reactions from vaccines and/or reactions that link to long term health issues.

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#10 of 78 Old 07-30-2014, 07:55 AM
 
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Deborah, #4 would include:

coincidence.

It is just a coincidence your child developed xyz on the same days as the vaccines.

Sometimes this may be true - sometimes it isn't, but it should always be taken seriously and should always be reported. what is important in the incident rate in the unvaxxed versus the recently vaxxed. How many unvaxxed 32-34 week olds develop seizures (for example) versus 32-34 week old who are recently vaxxed?

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Last edited by kathymuggle; 07-30-2014 at 08:29 AM.
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#11 of 78 Old 07-30-2014, 08:17 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deborah View Post
On another thread we were discussing why people decide to reject vaccines after a reaction, whereas people don't reject, for example, automobiles after they are in an accident.

I said that I thought one factor was that the pro-vaccine explanations of why vaccine reactions are:

1) not really reactions
2) not really something to worry about
3) necessary (your immune system is responding and this is good)
4) all other explanations

don't look very good when seen one after another. There is a pattern and it looks like an attempt to explain away anything that appears to be connected in a negative way to a vaccination.

So I wanted to start a thread for sharing some of these explanations from the vaccine promoters, both for reference and also to see if I'm right and they do look funky when piled up in a heap in one "room".
Isn't it suspicious how:

1. coincidences happen
2. Some things have a minor downside
3. Some things are necessary
4. Other stuff happens

And, how all four seem to pile up.

I'm not buying it.
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#12 of 78 Old 07-30-2014, 08:34 AM
 
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Originally Posted by tadamsmar View Post
Isn't it suspicious how:

1. coincidences happen
2. Some things have a minor downside
3. Some things are necessary
4. Other stuff happens

And, how all four seem to pile up.

I'm not buying it.
This was explored on an other thread, but if I had a six month who had what I believe to be a serious reaction to a vaccine and a health care professional said it was:

1. a coincidence
2. minor
3. vaccines are necessary (Really? Huh. I guess the unvaxxed kids I know are ficticious. )

I would run screaming from them, feeling dismissed and discounted. If it hapenned several times, I would question whether health care professionals were at all credible when it comes to vaccines, or if they were blinded by vaccine-love.

There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#13 of 78 Old 07-30-2014, 09:03 AM
 
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Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post
This was explored on an other thread, but if I had a six month who had what I believe to be a serious reaction to a vaccine and a health care professional said it was:

1. a coincidence
2. minor
3. vaccines are necessary (Really? Huh. I guess the unvaxxed kids I know are ficticious. )

I would run screaming from them, feeling dismissed and discounted. If it hapenned several times, I would question whether health care professionals were at all credible when it comes to vaccines, or if they were blinded by vaccine-love.
So you think that the fact that something serious happens to you right after you had a vaccine means that every professional on the planet is suppose to believe that the serious thing is a reaction to the vaccine? Are you serious?

I'd not think it was a coincidence if it happened several times unless it happened several times often enough otherwise to be plausibly a coincidence.

Vaccines are not necessary, it's just that someone dies of the measles every 5 minutes and most of them are kids under 5.
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#14 of 78 Old 07-30-2014, 09:14 AM
 
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So you think that the fact that something serious happens to you right after you had a vaccine means that every professional on the planet is suppose to believe that the serious thing is a reaction to the vaccine? Are you serious?

I think every doctor on the planet should take serious reaction reports seriously. I know - wild, eh? (sarcasm)


Vaccines are not necessary, it's just that someone dies of the measles every 5 minutes and most of them are kids under 5.
Glad you admit they are not necessary. You should edit your post. You probably just meant "a really good idea in some places."

Here is what WHO had to say about measles deaths:

"Measles is still common in many developing countries – particularly in parts of Africa and Asia. More than 20 million people are affected by measles each year. The overwhelming majority (more than 95%) of measles deaths occur in countries with low per capita incomes and weak health infrastructures."

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#15 of 78 Old 07-30-2014, 09:20 AM
 
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Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post
This was explored on an other thread, but if I had a six month who had what I believe to be a serious reaction to a vaccine and a health care professional said it was:

1. a coincidence
2. minor
3. vaccines are necessary (Really? Huh. I guess the unvaxxed kids I know are ficticious. )

I would run screaming from them, feeling dismissed and discounted.
How many vaccinations are given every year? I'd guess 100 million. 10 thousand of those people are going to have something serious and unlikely happen within a day after the vaccination even if that something so rare that happens ever 30 years or so to the average person.

That alone would give us 10,000 new people per year that thought they had a serious reaction to a vaccine, just by chance, assuming they all reacted psychologically the way you say you would react to having something serious happen right after being vaccinated.
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#16 of 78 Old 07-30-2014, 09:32 AM
 
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Glad you admit they are not necessary. You should edit your post. You probably just meant "a really good idea in some places."

Here is what WHO had to say about measles deaths:

"Measles is still common in many developing countries – particularly in parts of Africa and Asia. More than 20 million people are affected by measles each year. The overwhelming majority (more than 95%) of measles deaths occur in countries with low per capita incomes and weak health infrastructures."
So, you are good at research. What do you estimate the yearly death toll from measles would go to if every country in the world that did not have a weak health infrastructure stopped vaccinating for measles?

There is some data on the death toll from the measles in Europe in recent years. You can project from that. You seem to be good at math.

Some years ago WHO was hoping to eradicate measles by about now, but, in Wakefield's wake, we have a measles death every 5 minutes.
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#17 of 78 Old 07-30-2014, 09:46 AM
 
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I think (IIRC) the death toll in Europe in recent outbreaks was around 1/2400 reported cases. Do not confuse reported cases from actual cases - as some cases surely went unreported. In largely vaccinated societies, the burden of measles may have shifted onto younger and older populations.

There is no way I am going to speculate on how many world wide cases of measles there would be if we stopped vaccinating. You go ahead and have fun with that. I do love how vaccine apologists like to trot out measles, though…shall we do pertussis, flu, chicken pox, hep. b instead?

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…and back on track…

#4

-I know it lists that reaction in the vaccine pamphlet, but those things lie!

-I know the sumpreme court awarded vaccine damages to xyz, but they are not scientists! (correct, they only listened, undoubtably, to numerous scientists during the court case. It is funny how if I question pharmaceutical corporations, I am a conspiracy theorist, but it is fine to question the Supreme Court)

- yes, they had a reaction, but it is because they have faulty genes! It is not the vaccine fault! (with no attempt made to screen children for said "faulty genes" oh, and what specific genes are they, pray-tell?)

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#19 of 78 Old 07-30-2014, 12:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Deborah View Post
There is just no way around it. If the US schedule is "just right" then all the other countries with different schedules and fewer vaccines are just plain wrong.
Not necessarily. The risks of various diseases can be different in different countries, for instance.

Most countries don't vaccinate for HepB at birth. My country does it at adolescence. But conditions are different in the US, when pre-natal care (on average) is much less consistent, and the risk of an infant contracting the disease from their mother is higher.

Countries make different calls based on their own unique conditions, with neither schedule being "wrong" exactly.
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Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post
This was explored on an other thread, but if I had a six month who had what I believe to be a serious reaction to a vaccine and a health care professional said it was:

1. a coincidence
2. minor
3. vaccines are necessary (Really? Huh. I guess the unvaxxed kids I know are ficticious. )

I would run screaming from them, feeling dismissed and discounted. If it hapenned several times, I would question whether health care professionals were at all credible when it comes to vaccines, or if they were blinded by vaccine-love.
I agree with PP. That's just silly. Just because a parent thinks something is a vaccine reaction, doesn't mean it is.

At one time, scientists thought that eating ice cream caused polio. Not eating ice cream was even recommended as part of an "anti polio" diet.

I read a case not too long ago about a mother who was convinced her daughter got polio because she sat in her wet swimsuit all day after swimming in the pool. The rumor spread in their town and parents were adamant about their children changing out of their swimsuits immediately after swimming because of it.

If you've ever read The Little House on the Prairie series, you might remember that when they all came down with malaria, their mother (and others in the town as well) were convinced they got it from eating watermelon. After all, they had all eaten watermelon by the creek before becoming sick. Their father wasn't convinced, though, and said that malaria was clearly caused by breathing in air that was too cold.

Point is, science doesn't work that way. No matter how many mothers were convinced that eating ice cream or letting their child sit in a wet swimsuit caused their child's polio is going to make them right. No amount of mothers or fathers believing that eating watermelon or breathing cold air caused their children to get malaria is going to make them right, either.

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Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post
This was explored on an other thread, but if I had a six month who had what I believe to be a serious reaction to a vaccine and a health care professional said it was:

1. a coincidence
2. minor
3. vaccines are necessary (Really? Huh. I guess the unvaxxed kids I know are ficticious. )

I would run screaming from them, feeling dismissed and discounted. If it hapenned several times, I would question whether health care professionals were at all credible when it comes to vaccines, or if they were blinded by vaccine-love.
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
I agree with PP. That's just silly. Just because a parent thinks something is a vaccine reaction, doesn't mean it is.


I think you need to reread my thread. I said if I believed my child had a serious vaccine reaction. I did not use the word "know." In order to have even close to 100% certainty that a vaccine caused a reaction we would have to have some sort of proof - and there are no tests that determine vaccine reactions, are there? It seems a bit like setting a bar at an unreachable level. In any event, I truly think it is bad medicine and a dereliction of duty to dismiss parental reports of perceived significant reaction. It is mind boggling that people are arguing it isn't.

Patient: I never had seizures before, but ever since I have been on this drug (which is known to cause seizure) I have been having them!

Doctor: Nonsense! You cannot prove the drug is causing the seizures. It might be coincidence. There is no need to alter your medicine course.

…..#saidonlyinvaccineworld

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#22 of 78 Old 07-30-2014, 05:55 PM
 
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I think you need to reread my thread. I said if I believed my child had a serious vaccine reaction. I did not use the word "know." In order to have even close to 100% certainty that a vaccine caused a reaction we would have to have some sort of proof - and there are no tests that determine vaccine reactions, are there? It seems a bit like setting a bar at an unreachable level. In any event, I truly think it is bad medicine and a dereliction of duty to dismiss parental reports of perceived significant reaction. It is mind boggling that people are arguing it isn't.
It's not just based off of this one response, though. You've made similar comments in the past and even today on the other thread you said : "A few of those type of studies may convince me on a population level (although not on an individual level - when a parent says they witnessed a regression after xyz I believe them.)"

You've made it pretty clear through past responses that if a parent says X was a vaccine reaction, you believe it because they say so. Again, science doesn't work that way.

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#23 of 78 Old 07-30-2014, 07:17 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by MichelleZB View Post
Not necessarily. The risks of various diseases can be different in different countries, for instance.

Most countries don't vaccinate for HepB at birth. My country does it at adolescence. But conditions are different in the US, when pre-natal care (on average) is much less consistent, and the risk of an infant contracting the disease from their mother is higher.

Countries make different calls based on their own unique conditions, with neither schedule being "wrong" exactly.
Absolutely right! And if the wording I had quoted had allowed for different strokes for different folks rather than "the science has spoken" I would not have said what I said.

The problem for the pro-vaccine people is that the need for the Hep B at birth is NOT universal in the US. And if they admitted that vaccination schedules vary depending on the needs of local populations, parents in the US could legitimately say "my baby will not be in daycare, therefore my baby doesn't actually require x, y and z vaccine." So they don't say that vaccine schedules vary.

And, as I'm trying to point out in this thread, when a parent who has been bullied by their doctor into getting all of the recommended vaccines on the CDC schedule, discovers that babies in Switzerland are just fine with fewer vaccines, the parent may lose a bit of trust in the CDC and in their doctor. This is why research into vaccines is so dangerous. The crust is very thin.
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#24 of 78 Old 07-30-2014, 07:22 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Yes, coincidence is an excellent explanation for anything that occurs after vaccinations.

However, if you are going to collect decent data you need to make note of everything that could possibly be a reaction.

And if you want parents to trust their doctors, doctors need to take things seriously if they happen following a vaccination. For one thing, the habit of dismissing problems that occur after vaccines could kill a baby who had (coincidentally) caught a nasty virus at the doctor's office when they got their vaccines. The mother calls and is told that all the symptoms are normal. By the time she overcomes her trust in authority and rushes the very ill baby to the hospital it is too late and you've got a dead kid. Not due to the vaccines, but definitely due to the tendency (which some people encourage) of labeling everything that happens after a vaccine as normal or a coincidence.

Sorry, but I think the attitude is very dangerous.

I notice that the problem of the background rate being based on a vaccinated population didn't jump out at anyone.

Nor the problem of the healthy vaccinees confounder in "lower sids" in the vaxed babies studies.
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#25 of 78 Old 07-30-2014, 08:15 PM
 
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It's not just based off of this one response, though. You've made similar comments in the past and even today on the other thread you said : "A few of those type of studies may convince me on a population level (although not on an individual level - when a parent says they witnessed a regression after xyz I believe them.)"
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That is right. I said I would believe a parent if they said they witnessed a regression. Many regressions are pretty clear. How little faith in parents you seem to have. Would I swear on a stack of bibles that a particular child (particulalry one I did not witness with my own eyes) regressed because of a vaccines? Of course not. No one knows anything for 100% certain. Believe =/= omnipotent knowledge.

You and tadamsmar, on the other hand, seem to be defending doctors dismissing parents who report serious reactions. You do not even seem interested in having doctors take the report seriously or try and figure out what is going on. I remain flabbergasted.

I edited your post down…but this is second time you say science does not work this way.

Well, I am pretty sure "science" does not want you to dismiss everything as a coincidence without any attempt to sort it out.

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#26 of 78 Old 07-30-2014, 09:02 PM
 
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The problem for the pro-vaccine people is that the need for the Hep B at birth is NOT universal in the US. And if they admitted that vaccination schedules vary depending on the needs of local populations, parents in the US could legitimately say "my baby will not be in daycare, therefore my baby doesn't actually require x, y and z vaccine." So they don't say that vaccine schedules vary.

And, as I'm trying to point out in this thread, when a parent who has been bullied by their doctor into getting all of the recommended vaccines on the CDC schedule, discovers that babies in Switzerland are just fine with fewer vaccines, the parent may lose a bit of trust in the CDC and in their doctor. This is why research into vaccines is so dangerous. The crust is very thin.
I agree that not all babies need Hep B at birth. If you are a mother who has had a negative Hep B test, your newborn does not need the vaccine right away. You don't need to convince me; I'm from Canada. It's a good idea to get Hep B eventually, but your doctor could just add it in anytime over the next few years of the kid's life or whatever.

You don't need to trust either your specific doctor or your country's exact policies to want your children vaccinated.
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#27 of 78 Old 07-31-2014, 05:22 AM
 
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You and tadamsmar, on the other hand, seem to be defending doctors dismissing parents who report serious reactions. You do not even seem interested in having doctors take the report seriously or try and figure out what is going on. I remain flabbergasted.
I showed that there will be tens of thousands of coincidences per years. The doctor is no better position than you are to determine which, if any, of them are actual reactions.

Your other posts indicate that you already know that the mere act of doctors noting and compiling all the coincidences as possible reactions does nothing. You'd need data on how common the events are in general. That has been studied for many conditions like autism, but there remains a core of people who will not be convinced by any study.
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#28 of 78 Old 07-31-2014, 06:08 AM
 
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You and tadamsmar, on the other hand, seem to be defending doctors dismissing parents who report serious reactions. You do not even seem interested in having doctors take the report seriously or try and figure out what is going on. I remain flabbergasted.

I edited your post down…but this is second time you say science does not work this way.

Well, I am pretty sure "science" does not want you to dismiss everything as a coincidence without any attempt to sort it out.
Of course science does not want us to dismiss everything as coincidence. There have been numerous studies on vaccine reactions for things like autism, diabetes etc. For some, no amount of studies will ever be enough. That doesn't mean they haven't been done and reactions are being dismissed, though.

And again, just because a parent saw their child regress after a vaccine does not mean the vaccine caused the regression. Even if the parent says so. It just doesn't.

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#29 of 78 Old 07-31-2014, 06:33 AM
 
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Of course science does not want us to dismiss everything as coincidence. There have been numerous studies on vaccine reactions for things like autism, diabetes etc. For some, no amount of studies will ever be enough. That doesn't mean they haven't been done and reactions are being dismissed, though.

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Unless I am reading you and tadamsar wrong, you are both suggesting individual doctors dismiss patient/parental reports of significant reaction (and by dismiss, I mean the terms laid out in an above post - insist it was coincidence, insist it is minor and insist the child continue with vaccines as it is necessary). True or false?

There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#30 of 78 Old 07-31-2014, 06:57 AM
 
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Unless I am reading you and tadamsar wrong, you are both suggesting individual doctors dismiss patient/parental reports of significant reaction (and by dismiss, I mean the terms laid out in an above post - insist it was coincidence, insist it is minor and insist the child continue with vaccines as it is necessary). True or false?
I don't think pediatricians should ever be dismissive. They should listen and politely discuss whether or not X reaction is linked to vaccines.

Using the word "reaction" is too broad for me to really answer. Some things are just a coincidence, some are not. A child jumping out of a crib the day after receiving a vaccine and spraining their ankle is just an unfortunate coincidence. A child who stops breathing and goes into anaphylactic shock within a few minutes of receiving a vaccine is almost certainly suffering a severe vaccine reaction.

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