Vaccines, $$$ & "fight the virus NATURALLY"! - Page 2 - Mothering Forums

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#31 of 192 Old 08-03-2014, 03:43 PM - Thread Starter
 
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http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...ar-marc-siegel

well what "seems" be contagious right now is the fear, while many may not be at risk (but can we really know based on that Executive Order because of this?) most feel they ARE at risk

personally, I think comments on these types of stories really show how it's playing IRL

ETA- we also have no way of knowing if the virus was actually here prior, the housekeeping at the CDC certainly could/should be questioned - if it is being worked on here well a plane most likely flew it here sometime ago, yet I didn't hear uproars about that-odd??
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#32 of 192 Old 08-03-2014, 04:34 PM
 
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I find the story of rotavirus and the vaccines rather bizarre.

This is an illness that kills hundreds of thousands of babies a year. In developing countries. In the US the number I've heard is 50 per year.

So. The vaccine is developed. And it is rolled out in the US. Where it may even have saved some lives. And we do hear that hospitalizations for gastro are down in the US.

Meanwhile, year after year after year babies continue to die in developing countries. It took 7 or 8 years to begin to roll out this vaccine where it is desperately needed and then only because the drug companies and GAVI have a deal going and huge amounts of money are being extracted from the developed countries to be used to pay for vaccines for the developing world.

Oh, and the vaccine turns out to not work so great in poor countries.

But anyway, I get really tired of hearing about the number of children or babies who die in poor countries for lack of vaccines, while the vaccines are pushed relentlessly in the US and Europe where babies are very unlikely to die, but people can afford to pay for them.
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#33 of 192 Old 08-03-2014, 04:46 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I find the story of rotavirus and the vaccines rather bizarre.

This is an illness that kills hundreds of thousands of babies a year. In developing countries. In the US the number I've heard is 50 per year.

So. The vaccine is developed. And it is rolled out in the US. Where it may even have saved some lives. And we do here that hospitalizations for gastro are down in the US.

Meanwhile, year after year after year babies continue to die in developing countries. It took 7 or 8 years to begin to roll out this vaccine where it is desperately needed and then only because the drug companies and GAVI have a deal going and huge amounts of money are being extracted from the developed countries to be used to pay for vaccines for the developing world.

Oh, and the vaccine turns out to not work so great in poor countries.

But anyway, I get really tired of hearing about the number of children or babies who die in poor countries for lack of vaccines, while the vaccines are pushed relentlessly in the US and Europe where babies are very unlikely to die, but people can afford to pay for them.

I agree about your example with rotoavirus (other's too), but with Ebola, IMO it is being (pushed, used, suggested, manipulated, etc) because of the use as a biopreparat pathogen and the US does want control and that takes it to a different level outside of the "normal" vaccine realm.
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#34 of 192 Old 08-03-2014, 05:30 PM
 
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Naturally???

I also heard this same line today on NPR -

At Emory the staff will try to ease the patient’s symptoms and provide better monitoring of fluids and vital signs. Since there is no specific treatment for Ebola, all that can be done is to make them as comfortable as possible and let the body fight the virus naturally.

http://guardianlv.com/2014/08/ebola-...ce-for-a-cure/

I have been lead to believe by the PRO vaccine side the body is to take in vaccines not to do it "naturally"? What gives?
You know that ebola is 90% fatal, so the body doesn't do such a great job of taking care of it naturally. But, unfortunately, that's all we have right now.
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#35 of 192 Old 08-03-2014, 05:42 PM - Thread Starter
 
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You know that ebola is 90% fatal, so the body doesn't do such a great job of taking care of it naturally. But, unfortunately, that's all we have right now.
Do you know they are using transfusion for some who do want them?

http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/conten...ent_1/S18.long

"Naturally" is the word being used in the statement by the hospital.
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#36 of 192 Old 08-03-2014, 05:48 PM - Thread Starter
 
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http://www.nydailynews.com/life-styl...icle-1.1887556
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#37 of 192 Old 08-03-2014, 07:02 PM
 
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Do you know they are using transfusion for some who do want them?

http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/conten...ent_1/S18.long

"Naturally" is the word being used in the statement by the hospital.
I don't understand what you mean. I took the post I quoted before to mean that you think that natural is better, and that pro-vaccine people think that natural isn't better. In this case, with a fatality rate of 90%, natural isn't so great. I have no idea what blood transfusions mean with regards to our postings.
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#38 of 192 Old 08-03-2014, 07:04 PM
 
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Meanwhile, at Gatwick Airport in London, UK, a plane has arrived from Africa with a passenger very ill and then dies of Ebola.

It is only a plane ride away.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...lapses-3977051

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#39 of 192 Old 08-03-2014, 07:04 PM
 
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http://www.latimes.com/science/scien...801-story.html

This says that the death rate can be almost halved with fluid replacements and other supportive treatments.
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#40 of 192 Old 08-03-2014, 08:14 PM
 
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That article says "could be" but no one really knows. That's flat out just a guess, with no hard science behind it. But even so, a 45% death rate is pretty staggering. That's on par with the Plague that hit Europe during the Middle Ages. Not exactly a victory for the old immune system, there.
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#41 of 192 Old 08-03-2014, 08:27 PM
 
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I am not sure what the point is in discussing "naturally fighting " ebola. According to this thread, we are looking at a 45% best case scenario survial rate to less than 10% survival rate. I certainly do not want those odds - does anyone?

Now, the odds of people survivng chicken pox, rotavirus, hep. A, rubella if not an fetus, the flu, through naturally fighting it off are odds I am willing to take.

Let's not get riddiculous - the polarisation of "natural" and "western medicine" is trotted out far too often and makes everyone look silly. My 2 cents.

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#42 of 192 Old 08-03-2014, 08:35 PM
 
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I'm not sure if you are referring to me, Kathy, but I just responded to the original post. My personal feeling is that natural is not automatically better.
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#43 of 192 Old 08-03-2014, 08:49 PM
 
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I was talking to everyone.
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#44 of 192 Old 08-03-2014, 10:13 PM
 
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Meanwhile, at Gatwick Airport in London, UK, a plane has arrived from Africa with a passenger very ill and then dies of Ebola.

It is only a plane ride away.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...lapses-3977051
It is only a plane ride away, but in this case, it appears Ebola wasn't hitching a ride. Ebola test came back negative. http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-28634903


It could come on another plane. That would be awful for the person who had it, and scary for the people exposed, but the good news for the rest of us is that quite possibly no one else would get it,and if they did, it would certainly only be a small number. Ebola just isn't that contagious, and the risk of a large outbreak in areas with decent health systems and who are not just coming out of civil war is pretty much non-existant.

I do not understand the original post. Who has been claiming vaccines are natural? Who has been saying that for profit pharmacy puts millions into research and development out of the goodness of their hearts?
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#45 of 192 Old 08-03-2014, 10:15 PM
 
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I was talking to everyone.
So, then you were talking to me. I'm confused, I was just responding to the original post. Am I not supposed to?
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#46 of 192 Old 08-04-2014, 03:41 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I do not understand the original post. Who has been claiming vaccines are natural? The PRO vaccine side, remember a pear? Nice and natural, just like nature! Who has been saying that for profit pharmacy puts millions into research and development out of the goodness of their hearts?
The PRO vaccine side has on here and elsewhere said vaccines are not made for profit but because of the need! Apparently profit is a factor.


I didn't "claim" vaccines are natural but there have been several threads on here where those who are PRO vaccine have made that claim that ingredients are and comparable to nature in exposure! I certainly do not think they are! Natural is also something the PROvaccines side does not seem in any way support of, thus why we have vaccines, because we no longer allow nature to act, thus the reason we have vaccines for what was normal and natural. In this case (with the links I provided) there is such irony because of the treatment is natural...only until a vaccines? Irony!

It's been stated (I did provide a link too) on here numerous times that vaccines do not make money and thus are not made to make money. The ANTI vaccines has always disputed this and said it is about money and that vaccines DO make money. In this thread (on Ebola) and with the links I provided, it shows that for a vaccines it IS about money. No profit, no desire, that flies in the face of all the other PROvaccines message out there on it. Irony!

.......a plane ride away.......just what the PROside says and now got with the help/blessing of the CDC Irony!

 

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#47 of 192 Old 08-04-2014, 03:45 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I don't understand what you mean. I took the post I quoted before to mean that you think that natural is better, and that pro-vaccine people think that natural isn't better. In this case, with a fatality rate of 90%, natural isn't so great. I have no idea what blood transfusions mean with regards to our postings.
I provided two links that talk directly about blood transfusions, it does make it quite clear IMO

I do think natural is always better

ETA- I will repeat, if one actually reads the link(s) I provided the word natural is used to describe the treatment being given. I DID NOT nor DO I FEEL vaccines are natural in any way, shape or whatever but referring to vaccines as natural (not what this thread is about!) have been what the PROvaccine has said, on here and elsewhere. Natural in ingredients and natural in that those ingredients are just like nature - I disagrees with that line of thought regarding vaccines.
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#48 of 192 Old 08-04-2014, 04:54 AM - Thread Starter
 
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It is only a plane ride away, but in this case, it appears Ebola wasn't hitching a ride. Ebola test came back negative. http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-28634903


It could come on another plane. That would be awful for the person who had it, and scary for the people exposed, but the good news for the rest of us is that quite possibly no one else would get it,and if they did, it would certainly only be a small number. Ebola just isn't that contagious, and the risk of a large outbreak in areas with decent health systems and who are not just coming out of civil war is pretty much non-existant.

Isn't this anti-PRO vaccine??
I mean time after time we hear how polio is "just a plane ride away", that too is very hard to spread in a first world nation with a non-third world sewer system yet that doesn't stop the PRO vaccines mantra from being repeated. From what I am reading on comments (on news stories) seems the PRO vaccine side sees no different between Ebola or polio when it comes to brining out the fear and saying it's the same threat. We are told we have such a great health system here in the US, that too seems odd that the fear factor for disease is so great coming from far away lands is so prevalent.

Maybe it's all to instill fear not reality
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#49 of 192 Old 08-04-2014, 06:04 AM
 
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I provided two links that talk directly about blood transfusions, it does make it quite clear IMO

I do think natural is always better

ETA- I will repeat, if one actually reads the link(s) I provided the word natural is used to describe the treatment being given. I DID NOT nor DO I FEEL vaccines are natural in any way, shape or whatever but referring to vaccines as natural (not what this thread is about!) have been what the PROvaccine has said, on here and elsewhere. Natural in ingredients and natural in that those ingredients are just like nature - I disagrees with that line of thought regarding vaccines.
I still don't understand what you are saying. I don't understand this post, or now, the original post at all.

As for the funding-

I think you are also misunderstanding the difference between profits, and research funding costs. Getting any medical treatment through human trials is jaw droppingly expensive. Let's say you personally have a fabulous treatment for an illness, and you want to help other people. Could you afford to go through the entire process? If you can't scrape together the cash to do it, does that mean that you don't want to help people? Or does it just mean you couldn't afford to do the research?

This Scientific American article sums up a lot of this in really simple terms: http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...-ebola-virus1/

I'm sure out of the entire article this is the sentence that some posters are going to jump on: "With Ebola, there’s a small global market—there’s not a big incentive for a large pharmaceutical company to make an Ebola vaccine, so it’s going to require government funding."

What they are saying here, is that the research is so stunningly expensive, that a company that does have to keep itself afloat, it cannot bankrupt itself over one treatment that it can't get the money back, isn't going to be able to throw that kind of money away. The only way to get the research done and to jump through all of the FDA hoops is to get government backing, because the government can afford to pay for something like that without needing to make it up in the market. That's what so many vaccines have been developed by the government. It's not saying that pharmaceutical companies are only out for profits, but it is naive to think that they can throw money at research willy nilly without a care in the world as to how they are going to keep their company going next quarter.
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#50 of 192 Old 08-04-2014, 06:31 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I still don't understand what you are saying. I don't understand this post, or now, the original post at all.

As for the funding-

I think you are also misunderstanding the difference between profits, and research funding costs. NOPE! I DO understand! Getting any medical treatment through human trials is jaw droppingly expensive. Let's say you personally have a fabulous treatment for an illness, and you want to help other people. Could you afford to go through the entire process? If you can't scrape together the cash to do it, does that mean that you don't want to help people? Or does it just mean you couldn't afford to do the research?

This Scientific American article sums up a lot of this in really simple terms: http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...-ebola-virus1/

I'm sure out of the entire article this is the sentence that some posters are going to jump on: "With Ebola, there’s a small global market—there’s not a big incentive for a large pharmaceutical company to make an Ebola vaccine, so it’s going to require government funding." You can see the same type of sentiment expressed in numerous articles on this subject.

What they are saying here, is that the research is so stunningly expensive, that a company that does have to keep itself afloat, it cannot bankrupt itself over one treatment that it can't get the money back, isn't going to be able to throw that kind of money away. The only way to get the research done and to jump through all of the FDA hoops is to get government backing, because the government can afford to pay for something like that without needing to make it up in the market. That's what so many vaccines have been developed by the government. It's not saying that pharmaceutical companies are only out for profits, but it is naive to think that they can throw money at research willy nilly without a care in the world as to how they are going to keep their company going next quarter.
I disagree with your interuptation. In Kathy's post #9 and especially in #17 I think it illustrates how I feel. Profit is factor IMO with ALL vaccines regardless of that pesky need for research, trials, etc!
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Doesn't look like natural was better. The two Americans were given a "top secret" experimental serum that had only ever been tested on monkeys. It appears to have worked.

"Brantly began to deteriorate and developed labored breathing. He told his doctors, "I am going to die," according to a source with firsthand knowledge of the situation.
Knowing his dose was still frozen, Brantly asked if he could have Writebol's now-thawed medication. It was brought to his room and administered through an IV. Within an hour of receiving the medication, Brantly's condition was nearly reversed. His breathing improved; the rash over his trunk faded away. One of his doctors described the events as "miraculous."

By the next morning, Brantly was able to take a shower on his own before getting on a specially designed Gulfstream air ambulance jet to be evacuated to the United States.

Writebol also received a vial of the medication. Her response was not as remarkable, according to sources familiar with the treatment. However, doctors on Sunday administered Writebol a second dose of the medication, which resulted in significant improvement.
She was stable enough to be evacuated back to the United States and is expected to arrive before noon Tuesday."

http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/04/health...html?hpt=hp_t1

Serenbat, do you really think natural is always better? If your child came down with diphtheria you wouldn't take them to the hospital to receive the antitoxin and antibiotics used to treat it? You would rather let her try and "naturally" recover?

If you came down with (extremely hypothetical) Ebola you would turn away this experimental treatment because it's not "natural"?

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So, then you were talking to me. I'm confused, I was just responding to the original post. Am I not supposed to?
Sure. You are part of everyone. Of course you can respond -and I responded to the direction I thought this thread was taking (the subtopic of "natural") What is the big deal here?

Honestly I am starting to think people are just looking for fights (shrug). I might be wrong, but that is my interpretation at the moment.
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#53 of 192 Old 08-04-2014, 08:27 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Doesn't look like natural was better. The two Americans were given a "top secret" experimental serum that had only ever been tested on monkeys. It appears to have worked.

"Brantly began to deteriorate and developed labored breathing. He told his doctors, "I am going to die," according to a source with firsthand knowledge of the situation.
Knowing his dose was still frozen, Brantly asked if he could have Writebol's now-thawed medication. It was brought to his room and administered through an IV. Within an hour of receiving the medication, Brantly's condition was nearly reversed. His breathing improved; the rash over his trunk faded away. One of his doctors described the events as "miraculous."

By the next morning, Brantly was able to take a shower on his own before getting on a specially designed Gulfstream air ambulance jet to be evacuated to the United States.

Writebol also received a vial of the medication. Her response was not as remarkable, according to sources familiar with the treatment. However, doctors on Sunday administered Writebol a second dose of the medication, which resulted in significant improvement.
She was stable enough to be evacuated back to the United States and is expected to arrive before noon Tuesday."

http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/04/health...html?hpt=hp_t1

Serenbat, do you really think natural is always better? If your child came down with diphtheria you wouldn't take them to the hospital to receive the antitoxin and antibiotics used to treat it? You would rather let her try and "naturally" recover?

If you came down with (extremely hypothetical) Ebola you would turn away this experimental treatment because it's not "natural"?
I think you are confusing two issues and trying to connect them to mean the same- they are not.

I don't feel vaccines are natural and choose not to use them.
I use band aids and they are not natural but that is not what is bring discussed here.

I also was not the one who called his treatment natural- I simply commented on the news report.

I do feel there are important issues in this thread that are related but spinning to push an agenda is just that.... Spin!
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I think you are confusing two issues and trying to connect them to mean the same- they are not.

I don't feel vaccines are natural and choose not to use them.
I use band aids and they are not natural but that is not what is bring discussed here.

I also was not the one who called his treatment natural- I simply commented on the news report.

I do feel there are important issues in this thread that are related but spinning to push an agenda is just that.... Spin!
Look at post 47. You said :

"I do think natural is always better

ETA- I will repeat, if one actually reads the link(s) I provided the word natural is used to describe the treatment being given."

The antitoxins and antibiotics used to treat diphtheria and the serum used to treat these two Americans are not "natural" treatments.

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson 

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#55 of 192 Old 08-04-2014, 08:43 AM
 
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I think you are also misunderstanding the difference between profits, and research funding costs.

Oh, I doubt she is.

The two are tied, though. Profit is the amount after all expenses - including research funding costs.




I'm sure out of the entire article this is the sentence that some posters are going to jump on: "With Ebola, there’s a small global market—there’s not a big incentive for a large pharmaceutical company to make an Ebola vaccine, so it’s going to require government funding."

What they are saying here, is that the research is so stunningly expensive, that a company that does have to keep itself afloat, it cannot bankrupt itself over one treatment that it can't get the money back, isn't going to be able to throw that kind of money away. The only way to get the research done and to jump through all of the FDA hoops is to get government backing, because the government can afford to pay for something like that without needing to make it up in the market. That's what so many vaccines have been developed by the government. It's not saying that pharmaceutical companies are only out for profits, but it is naive to think that they can throw money at research willy nilly without a care in the world as to how they are going to keep their company going next quarter.
This, as well as an earlier post by meepycat, really just sounds like someone trying to "gentle" the money issue, make it a bit more palatable. You are not disagreeing $$$ (which includes profit) makes the vaccine world go round. This is the reason certain new drugs are so expensive (HPV, rota) and the reason tropical diseases are stunningly under-represented in vaccination given their harm potential.


I do not think researchers are *only* in it for the money. They probably do enjoy helping people and contributing to a more healthy world as they see it. This is almost always secondary, though, to their need to earn money and the corporations desire to make profit.

I think some arguments on MDC could be avoided by people simply owning this.

There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

Book and herb loving mama to 1 preteen and 2 teens (when did that happen?).  We travel, go to school, homeschool, live rurally, eat our veggies, spend too much time...


Last edited by kathymuggle; 08-04-2014 at 04:49 PM.
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#56 of 192 Old 08-04-2014, 08:45 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Sure. You are part of everyone. Of course you can respond -and I responded to the direction I thought this thread was taking (the subtopic of "natural") What is the big deal here?

Honestly I am starting to think people are just looking for fights (shrug). I might be wrong, but that is my interpretation at the moment.
I agree! I don't get it either!
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#57 of 192 Old 08-04-2014, 08:48 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Look at post 47. You said :

"I do think natural is always better

ETA- I will repeat, if one actually reads the link(s) I provided the word natural is used to describe the treatment being given."

The antitoxins and antibiotics used to treat diphtheria and the serum used on these two Americans is not "natural" treatment.
You can spin all you desire and go OT too- that doesn't change my point of view. The news reports stated natural, I understand you have an issue with it. I did discuss it in this context.
I prefer natural.

This is not about diphtheria.
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#58 of 192 Old 08-04-2014, 08:51 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post
This, as well as an earlier post by meepycat, really just sounds like someone trying to "gentle" the money issue, make it a bit more palatable. You are not disagreeing $$$ (which includes profit) makes the vaccine world go round. This is the reason certain new drugs are so expensive (HPV, rota) and the reason tropical diseases are stunning under-represented in vaccination given their harm potential.


I do not think researchers are *only* in it for the money. They probably do enjoy helping people and contributing to a more healthy world as they see it. This is almost always secondary, though, to their need to earn money and the corporations desire to make profit.

I think some arguments on MDC could be avoided by people simply owning this.
I agree again. I have yet to meet a vaccine or a med that was not about profit. The bottom line IS about the bottom line.
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#59 of 192 Old 08-04-2014, 08:52 AM
 
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You can spin all you desire and go OT too- that doesn't change my point of view. The news reports stated natural, I understand you have an issue with it. I did discuss it in this context.
I prefer natural.

This is not about diphtheria.
I'm not spinning anything.

You made a statement and I am asking you a question about it.

So your answer is "Yes, I would rather my child recover naturally from diphtheria and Ebola" ? Is that right? If your child got bit by a rabid animal you would rather try and let them naturally recover from rabies over giving them the unnatural post exposure vaccine?

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#60 of 192 Old 08-04-2014, 09:01 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm not spinning anything.

You made a statement and I am asking you a question about it.

So your answer is "Yes, I would rather my child recover naturally from diphtheria and Ebola" ? Is that right? If your child got bit by a rabid animal you would rather try and let them naturally recover from rabies over giving them the unnatural post exposure vaccine?
Please stay on topic.
My personal choice for my child frankly is none of your business or relevant to this thread.

I do not support experimental procedure in general but again that is not what this is about nor is it about diphtheria no matter how you keep after it.
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