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Old 08-03-2014, 01:52 PM - Thread Starter
 
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A Crisis in Confidence?

I’m not a fan of this common argument from vaccine skeptics: “If vaccines work so well, why are you afraid of the unvaccinated?” Pro-vaxxers rightly counter that they don’t always work, so everyone should be vaccinated.

That said, there needs to be what statisticians call a negative association. As your confidence in vaccine effectiveness goes up, fear of the unvaccinated goes down. Conversely, as your confidence in vaccine effectiveness goes down, your fear of the unvaccinated would increase. Otherwise, the vaccine critics are correct in pointing out a double standard.

I’m seeing this double-standard a lot lately. We are apparently supposed to have lots and lots of faith in vaccines while being very, very afraid of the unvaccinated.
From Dr. Lara Zibners, (sister and cheerleader to attorney Amanda Naprawa): http://shotofprevention.com/2014/07/15/ask-before-they-play-to-keep-chickenpox-pertussis-and-measles-away/#more-5791

Quote:
Those of you who are convinced that immunization is the most effective way of protecting your children from a variety of preventable and life-threatening illnesses have already made peace with this decision.


(Bolding my own)

On the other hand . . .
Quote:

Is the refusal to vaccinate the equivalent to a loaded shotgun sitting on the kitchen table?


(Gee, you tell me, Lara. I’ve yet to see anyone back this claim with hard data, so let’s see if you can be the first. I, for one, don’t consider catching a case of pertussis while vaccinated, (isn’t it milder if they’re vaccinated?), the equivelant of a bullet going through a child’s skull, and think that those who say otherwise are making a mockery of child gun victims. But hey, that’s just me).


So, in short, vaccines are really, really effective, and you should be really, really afraid of the unvaccinated. (But just the children. Adults who aren’t up-to-date get no mention. Apparently they don’t spread illness. )

Let’s move on to this guy, who equates not getting his two-year-old’s two-year MMR vaccine on time to the exact month tantamount to being an “accidental anti-vaxxer.’ http://time.com/68249/vaccines-anti-vaxxers/

Quote:
Not all vaccines are 100% effective, but I feel relatively safe. Yet, I remain rankled by the anti-vaxxers. There is still a chance that my children could be a part of the unlucky few who are vaccine resistant.


(Once again, not the data-free assertion about the loaded gun).

Never mind that we didn’t reach high levels of vaccination coverage until well into the 1990s, and none of us grew up with the kind of hysteria that these articles are attempting to generate. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/G/coverage.pdf

And no, the but-but-but-pockets-of-unvaccinated argument is not the appropriate counter here. These authors are suggesting interrogations at ALL playgroups, not just those in Ashland, OR, Burlington, VT, and Boulder, CO.

Notice that in both of these articles, their confidence AND fear appear positively associated. So to a degree, I agree with the vaccine critics. There’s a double standard, and absolutists pushing rigid vaccine compliance need to address it.

Be honest. If you vaccinate, is your level of confidence in vaccines consistent with how much you do or don’t fear the unvaccinated?

Also, we all understand that vaccines don’t work 100% of the time. When a pharmaceutical product doesn’t do its job, is it fair to blame the people who didn’t use it?

In God we trust; all others must show data. selectivevax.gifsurf.gifteapot2.GIFintactivist.gif
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Old 08-03-2014, 02:02 PM
 
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Vaccines are a special category. When they don't work, it isn't the fault of the product. It is the fault of people who don't use the product.
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Old 08-03-2014, 02:16 PM
 
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But I think we should just call this particular game what it is--encouraging shunning, shaming and harassing of people who don't go along with the vaccination meme.

I doubt very much if there are really that many vaccinators who are in a state of shivering terror that the kids next door might not have gotten every single vaccine on time.

On the other hand, there is a very small group of people (I doubt if there are any on Mothering) who would enjoy having someone to pick on and harass and non-vaxers make an easy target. Now that discriminating based on skin color is out of fashion...
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Old 08-03-2014, 02:17 PM
 
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Vaccines are a special category. When they don't work, it isn't the fault of the product. It is the fault of people who don't use the product.
That is exactly the message I get too! it sums it up



95+ vaccine rates never are "good" enough because it's ALL about those who didn't vaccinate!

 

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Old 08-03-2014, 05:20 PM
 
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If I were a parent of children there are a lot of factors I'd consider in terms of playmates.

For example: electronic media--I don't like it--so children who are always staring at devices would be on my "I think not" list.

Infectious illness--I prefer to limit exposure--so kids who are constantly sick would be approached cautiously

Irresponsible parents--A parent who sent a sick child to a playdate wouldn't get a second invite

Just a few examples. But I don't think that vaccination status would be high on the list. Certainly, a parent who vaxed, but whose children were not constantly sick, who were kept at home when they were sick and who met my other criteria as potential playmates would be welcome.
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Old 08-04-2014, 11:12 AM
 
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“If vaccines work so well, why are you afraid of the unvaccinated?”

The only time I really see this argument used is in response to antagonizing, badgering and as a fairly snarky/sarcastic response to arguments about the perceived threats of unvaxxed in the population - regardless of reasons for being unvaxxed. It doesn't show up nearly as much on here as some other avenues of info sharing, but it happens.

I don't agree at all with comparing it to guns in the home (maybe because we are gun owners and staunch advocates for proper training, use and safety for gun owners and non-gun owners alike), but maybe because I don't view guns in even remotely the same category as vaccines.

I read both of the articles, including the follow up of how to approach asking other parents about their child's vax status before a play date...wow. Ballsy much? In the case of two otherwise heatlhy kids playing, vax status shouldn't even come into the picture. Perhaps if your child is undergoing chemo you may want to know vax status - both for disease and disease shedding purposes. But to ask just because you feel your child is at risk? I'd walk away as quickly as possible because I know that's not a friendship I'd even be remotely able to maintain - someone prying into my personal medical decisions and whatnot.

Quote:
“I know you may not be comfortable asking, so just to let you know, my kids are fully vaccinated because I do everything possible to protect them from disease. I sure hope yours are too.”
I'm offended by her assumption that because I don't vaccinate then clearly I'm not doing everything possible to protect my child - the whole vaccines are magical protective bubbles that just don't always work thus the need for everyone to get them in order for them to work fully... The petty comments go both ways and it all comes to this - it's no one's damn business.

Her fictitious conversations are a bit annoying bc were I on the other end I wouldn't even entertain someone with answers if their prerogative is just to find out my family's vax status to determine whether or not we can be friends.

Yhis in particular is a deal breaker for me:
Quote:
We’re so excited to have you see the new baby! Of course I’m a Nervous Nelly until he can have his shots, so we’ve been asking everyone we come in contact with if they’re up to date on their immunizations. I’m sure you understand. We’d do anything to keep our baby healthy.
It's one thing to make that decision for your own family. But to try and push that onto others is more than I can handle. And it's the particular wording (the bolded part) that irks me the most about it. I don't care if someone says they want to stay home and minimize contact with others in the beginning. It bothers me when people ask that family/friends be up to date before they visit until the baby can be vaxxed, but I can live with not seeing your kid, won't be the end of the world for me. It makes my blood boil when they feel the need to add those little digs that they would do anything to keep their kid healthy and if you don't do all that they do then that's borderline child abuse.

Just one more way this issue gets further and further divided into an us vs them and it shouldn't be like that. I want to be able to make my decisions without harassment and jumping through hoops just as much as the next person. But this new push on how to approach people to discuss their vaccine status....well it's not new really, no more new than asking someone if they were a Jew. History always repeats itself and we still can't seem to learn anything from it.

I like the way Deborah listed out what factors play into these decisions. For us it goes somewhat like this:

1. Food awareness - DD has food sensitivities. If I cannot be reasonably sure that someone is capable to complying with her restrictions and sticking to foods she is used to eating, I certainly won't allow her unsupervised time there but would also monitor closely to see how they handled it: Do they mock or tease her? Do they treat her food issues with respect or do they interrogate her/me? do they deliberately feed her things behind my back that she should not be having (yes, this has happened)?

2. Parenting style - Do they spank, yell and fight among one another? We don't associate much with groups or individuals who are screamers and most certainly would not tolerate anyone treating my child this way. DD is pretty sensitive to rough play in general.

3. Health status - Once the other things are out of the way or established, the immediate health of the child would be next. Are they sick and the parent doesn't give us a heads up and therefore a chance to back out? I don't mind having play dates when sniffles are involved. I would mind if someone showed up with head lice, scabies or Hand, foot and mouth. I might also mind if someone loaded their kid up with a fever reducer to mask symptoms and then showed up to play "because they felt fine". Now things happen, and DD was just exposed to HF&M at a birthday party last weekend - bunch of babies and toddlers running around sharing toys and play food which we know they all stick in their mouth. The two LO's having the party came down with symptoms the day after and then the second one was a few days behind, so would have been contagious at that time. We're pretty much out of the incubation period and so far so good.

Vax status? Honestly even when I was vaxxing ti would have never crossed my mind.
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Old 08-04-2014, 11:31 AM
 
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Exactly right Sassyfirechick!

Food is another one that can be a serious problem. One of my granddaughter's best friends belongs to a Kosher family. An open discussion of what is involved and what she can and cannot eat is part of maintaining an ongoing friendship. This is the way a healthy relationship between families should work. Special issues can be brought up, sorted through and necessary accommodations are made.

But unless there are unusual health issues, vaccination status isn't a special issue and should not be asked about. And encouraging people to ask questions invading the medical privacy of other families is a very nasty move and I think shows that the agenda of these groups has nothing to do with physical or social health.
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Old 08-04-2014, 12:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Deborah View Post
Exactly right

But unless there are unusual health issues, vaccination status isn't a special issue and should not be asked about. And encouraging people to ask questions invading the medical privacy of other families is a very nasty move and I think shows that the agenda of these groups has nothing to do with physical or social health.
I agree too.

The only issue I feel needing to know is important if you are dealing with such things as cancer where certain freshly vaced can be an issue but that is not what is being talked about.
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Old 08-07-2014, 09:30 AM
 
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I agree too.

The only issue I feel needing to know is important if you are dealing with such things as cancer where certain freshly vaced can be an issue but that is not what is being talked about.
Lol.

Asking about vaccination status is wrong, "nasty", a violation of privacy... except if you want to know if the child is vaccinated. In that case, it's ok

Those are some pretty impressive mental gymnastics you have going on there.

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Old 08-07-2014, 11:17 AM
 
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Actually, the discussion above admits that in the case of a medical condition it is VALID to ask about vaccination status and health status.

When there is no medical condition, poking your nose into other people's medical records is rude. Seems fairly obvious to me.
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Old 08-07-2014, 12:52 PM
 
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Lol.

Asking about vaccination status is wrong, "nasty", a violation of privacy... except if you want to know if the child is vaccinated. In that case, it's ok

Those are some pretty impressive mental gymnastics you have going on there.
Yes, when someone is so immune compromised how dare ask or care about that person!

Children attending public and some private schools get "asked" so that is now nasty and a violation of privacy??? I was unaware you supported NOT asking about children attending schools - good to know!

 

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Old 08-07-2014, 01:06 PM
 
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Here is how I worded it:
Quote:
But unless there are unusual health issues, vaccination status isn't a special issue and should not be asked about.
"In the case of unusual health issues".

This is similar to severe allergies. It is legitimate to come on very strong if your child's life could be threatened by exposure to tree nuts. It is legitimate to ask all sorts of tough questions if your child is immune compromised due to cancer treatment or some other, similar, situations.

But prying into medical status for 3 or 4 year olds before a play-date? Weird. Creepy. Borderline behavior. I'm horrified that the pro-vaccine folks are encouraging people to act like that.
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Old 08-07-2014, 01:14 PM
 
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Here is how I worded it:

"In the case of unusual health issues".

This is similar to severe allergies. It is legitimate to come on very strong if your child's life could be threatened by exposure to tree nuts. It is legitimate to ask all sorts of tough questions if your child is immune compromised due to cancer treatment or some other, similar, situations.

But prying into medical status for 3 or 4 year olds before a play-date? Weird. Creepy. Borderline behavior. [/SIZE]I'm horrified that the pro-vaccine folks are encouraging people to act like that.
I find it equally weird, creep and I do find it down right offensive. I also find those types of people are quite clueless in general on health issues and later those are the ones who go into shock when they find out the vaccines don't work when their child get CP or something else.

Wonder where it all comes from??? Oh, http://www.nbcnews.com/id/26269069/n.../#.U-PPWVa69Zg

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