Vaccines for dogs. Please help, I have no clue! - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 20 Old 08-04-2014, 03:16 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Question Vaccines for dogs. Please help, I have no clue!

Hi fellow vaccine researchers!

While after 8+ years of research into human vaccines I ended up in a "NO-VAX" camp for our family, I am pretty ignorant when it comes to dogs vaccines.

I would imagine that they are still harmful, but then again a puppy has a high chance of getting, let's say' parvo and dying from it.

We are planning on adopting an 8 weeks old puppy in the next few months (she will come to us with some vaccinations already), and I wonder what should I do from there.

If you are among people who consider vaccines unsafe, do you give any vaccines to your dogs? And if so, which ones and how many dosages with what break time in between? Which ones do you skip? Which ones are effective and which ones aren't? Please brief me on the topic!

y.
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#2 of 20 Old 08-04-2014, 03:40 PM
 
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My dog is vaccine-free and as you would expect, super healthy, and at four years old he has never required a sick visit to a vet. There is a great deal of information available on canine vaccines, if you feel you must vaccinate, and I know rabies is required by law, you should look at the research of Dr Ron Schultz and Dr Jean Dobbs protocol of the Rabies Challenge Fund, both recommend only core vaccines given in single vaccines, and then only puppy vaccines, no adult vaccines. If you want to look at promoting natural immunity to parvo and distemper (which is what we did), this is an interesting article by a vet who practices this.
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#3 of 20 Old 08-04-2014, 08:39 PM - Thread Starter
 
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This is what the puppy will have by the age of 8 weeks, before she is ready to leave the breeder (quoting the breeder's reply to me below):

"We give Neopar (Parvo Vaccine) at 4 weeks and again at 6 weeks. Then at 8 weeks they get a 5way combo vaccine. The 5way is distemper, adenovirus type 1 and 2, parainfluenza and parvo virus. I wouldn't be open to not vaccinating the pup as I believe those vaccines are necessary and if I vaccinated the rest of the litter and not your pup then your pup would be more likely to contract one of the viruses during the natural shedding of the virus in feces by the littermates. You'll need to have the vaccines boostered every 3-4 weeks until the pup is 16 weeks old."
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#4 of 20 Old 08-04-2014, 09:13 PM
 
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I haven't looked at vaccinations for animals in quite some time but here's some info I found looking. You can call the vet/breeder to find out the brand of the vaccinations that will be given and pull up the info on the specific vaccination to find out more on the ingredients, risks, etc if you'd like as well.

Standard puppy shot schedule: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/pic/article.cfm?aid=85
And vaccine reaction signs from AVMA: https://www.avma.org/public/PetCare/...ccination.aspx

Breakdown by shot with some info on boosters: http://pets.webmd.com/pet-vaccines-schedules-cats-dogs

Article on vax guideline changes in 2011: http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites...uidelines.aspx

A couple of links on selective/delayed vaccinations for dogs: http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/DODD...-PROTOCOLS.HTM
http://www.organic-pet-digest.com/do...-schedule.html


I would question using that breeder though. I've never heard of giving a vaccination to a puppy at 4 weeks of age under any circumstances. We have lived in areas with high rates of parvo as well and the vets always said to keep puppies contained until 6 weeks of age and vaccinate then. Under 6 weeks of age they are nursing from mom anyways and should not be allowed to be born or kept in an outdoor area or other area that would expose them to parvo. If they are born inside and kept inside with the nursing mother then they don't need a parvo shot until at least the standard 6 week mark. Although I do agree with her about the risk of shedding by the other puppies if your pup wasn't vaccinated I still wouldn't buy from her honestly but that's just me. The idea of a 4 week old puppy being given a vaccine would freak me.
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#5 of 20 Old 08-04-2014, 09:14 PM
 
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Oh also just realized this is in vaccinations... I've seen similar posts in the Pets forum as well so posting/moving there may get more response from the pet owners here. HTH!
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#6 of 20 Old 08-05-2014, 06:12 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks guys!

I will definitely read through the links.

Unfortunately the breeder does not look flexible about giving short to the puppies . And I do want to buy from this breeder for other reasons: her dogs are healthy (including joint health), her dogs look amazingly well and are reasonably priced (unlike a breeder of the same breed in our state...might be because there is generally more money to support such high prices where I live). So I will be flying to pick up the puppy.

But once the puppy is here I need to figure out what to do with her vaccine-wise.
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#7 of 20 Old 08-05-2014, 06:18 AM
 
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Skip the breeder and rescue a dog from a kill shelter.

Bring back the old MDC
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#8 of 20 Old 08-05-2014, 06:53 AM
 
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Your breeder is just following the usual recommendations. Vaccinating four week old puppies is useless because of maternal antibodies which is why they have to keep doing it. I would definitely not allow a puppy of mine to get a 5 in 1 shot, one at a time (if I did it at all).

You could try and see if the breeder would be willing to allow you to follow Dr Jean Dodd's protocol which is much more conservative. If you want a puppy from this breeder then you pretty much have to accept a highly vaccinated puppy, but once you get him/her you can work on detoxing.

Here is a link a directory of breeders that naturally rear their dogs, in case you want to look for a more like-minded breeder.

http://nrbreeders.homestead.com/
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#9 of 20 Old 08-05-2014, 07:08 AM
 
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Here are a couple of articles by Peter Dobias, DVM

http://peterdobias.com/blogs/blog/11...anine-vaccines
http://peterdobias.com/blogs/blog/11...gs-and-puppies

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#10 of 20 Old 08-05-2014, 07:09 AM
 
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Your breeder is just following the usual recommendations. Vaccinating four week old puppies is useless because of maternal antibodies which is why they have to keep doing it. I would definitely not allow a puppy of mine to get a 5 in 1 shot, one at a time (if I did it at all).

You could try and see if the breeder would be willing to allow you to follow Dr Jean Dodd's protocol which is much more conservative. If you want a puppy from this breeder then you pretty much have to accept a highly vaccinated puppy, but once you get him/her you can work on detoxing.

Here is a link a directory of breeders that naturally rear their dogs, in case you want to look for a more like-minded breeder.

http://nrbreeders.homestead.com/
I can't find it now but didn't you have a post short while back that had lots of info? Maybe in the NOT Vacating section? I didn't need it but had read it and now can't find it.

 

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#11 of 20 Old 08-05-2014, 08:31 AM
 
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I did post on natural immunity for dogs in the INV, somewhere?.....!

To the OP here is another article on genetics and health issues, which you might find of interest:

http://www.thedogplace.org/HEALTH/pr...a-problems.asp

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#12 of 20 Old 08-05-2014, 09:10 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Thank you so much for your support guys! I have just sent another email to the breeder (hopefully she won't refuse to sell me a puppy after that). I wrote:

I am so sorry to bother you again, but I do want to ask you more about vaccinations.

It seems that you give the last 5way combo shot at 8 weeks, which means right before the puppies leave for a new home. While I do believe in vaccines, I also believe that they do pose a great stress on the body and the immune system and do often have side effects, including (but not limited to) autoimmune conditions, allergies and obsessive compulsive behavior (like licking paws, biting on tail and such). Given that leaving the nest and adapting to a new home (travel, new people, loss of mother and siblings, somewhat different food, different climate) puts a great stress on a puppy as it is, I do want to post-pond the 5 ways combo for a couple of weeks, if at all possible. Considering the fact that we are talking of just one to three days difference, could you please allow me to pick up my puppy right before you take the other puppies for their 5combo shot (maybe even the same day or a day before)? This way it would eliminate the shedding issue, allowing me to feel much more comfortable with my dog’s future health and vaccination schedule.

For what it is worth, I am a very scientifically minded person who works in health care field. I have done 8+ years of in-depth research into the subject of vaccines (human vaccines however, but right now I am researching dog vaccines and vaccination schedule I am most comfortable with). Vaccines do contain a lot of ingredients that are considered to be strong neuro-toxins (including, but not limited to thimerosal (form of mercury) and aluminum, both are worst neuro-toxins known to humans). This is why, though supporting vaccines, I do not take vaccination casually.

Also I wanted to ask, if the 4 week shot is really necessary? From what I understand, at 4 weeks the puppies are still being breastfed and therefore, are protected by the mother’s antibodies. This is the reason many vets and even PhDs in the field consider 4 weeks shots to be a rather unnecessary strain on puppy’s health and recommend starting first parvo shot at 6 weeks of age, when the puppies are close to weaning.

Thanks,
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#13 of 20 Old 08-05-2014, 09:21 AM
 
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Good luck, I hope you can come to an agreeable compromise with the breeder. I was lucky, the breeder I go my dog from was willing to give me the puppy unvaccinated. I am hoping to get another puppy next year,this time from a breeder with five generations of unvaxxed, raw fed dogs. Even my first gen unvaxxed, raw fed guy is the picture of health, so to have an animal that is five generations unvaxxed is an exciting prospect!

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#14 of 20 Old 08-05-2014, 09:29 AM
 
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I did post on natural immunity for dogs in the INV, somewhere?.....!

To the OP here is another article on genetics and health issues, which you might find of interest:

http://www.thedogplace.org/HEALTH/pr...a-problems.asp
I know I read it someplace I liked it I know that!

 

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#15 of 20 Old 08-05-2014, 10:04 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Good luck, I hope you can come to an agreeable compromise with the breeder. I was lucky, the breeder I go my dog from was willing to give me the puppy unvaccinated. I am hoping to get another puppy next year,this time from a breeder with five generations of unvaxxed, raw fed dogs. Even my first gen unvaxxed, raw fed guy is the picture of health, so to have an animal that is five generations unvaxxed is an exciting prospect!
Yes, I too am planning to raw feed the dog for the most part. I did ask the breeder if she would be willing to supplement my puppy starting at 6 weeks with raw meat and liver, so she is used to the taste of it, but unfortunately she said no . Oh well, I guess the healthy eating will start once I get my hands on her.
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#16 of 20 Old 08-05-2014, 10:40 AM
 
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Oh dear, are you really sure you want an pup from this breeder?
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#17 of 20 Old 08-05-2014, 01:39 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Oh dear, are you really sure you want an pup from this breeder?
Yes, I am. This is a rare breed (Olde English bulldogge) and her dogs are truly exceptional, light years better than any other breeder's I looked into. They look just AMAZING, just truly truly exceptional. So I am willing to fly (since she does not ship puppies, which is a responsible decision on her behalf, I think) to another state to get the puppy and wait as long as it takes just to get that puppy from her. I can't have just a dog, I need to "click" with the dog (and the dog's parents because this is ultimately what the dog will look like once its past its cute puppy stage) and I sooo clicked with her dogs that I find myself going on her website a hundred times a day just to admire her work and how far ahead she is comparing to other breeders of this breed. I can barely sleep, I was so excited to find her...when I saw her dogs, it was like "Yes, this is IT". so not only I want a puppy from her, but I want it BADLY.
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#18 of 20 Old 08-05-2014, 02:03 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Oh dear, are you really sure you want an pup from this breeder?
And you know, when she said no to supplementing with raw meat and liver in a way I felt relieved. Because you know, if she buys her food in conventional food stores (like walmart or king supers) you never know what crap do they spray their meats with in order to make it look fresh for longer (not to mention hormones, antibiotics and pesticide residue), so I had mixed feelings about it anyway. Well, hopefully the puppy's instincts kick in once she is introduced to these foods at 8 weeks, after all her body should know what is good for it.

By the way, when you feed your dogs raw, do you wash the outside of the meat with hot water? I am just curious because I remember seeing a study about a year ago which showed high contamination of meat in the stores (they examined both conventional and health food stores) with MRSA (antibiotic resistant staph infection). I know that inside the stomach the acidity is probably too high for any of it to survive, but I wonder about getting it on the lips and around the mouth...

Anyway, I guess I am just worried too much...much like a first time parent hysteria, you know . I used to work with dogs professionally (used to be a professional obedience trainer), but I haven't owned my own dog for over a decade now, so I feel like a first time mom to be all over again.
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#19 of 20 Old 08-05-2014, 02:18 PM
 
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And you know, when she said no to supplementing with raw meat and liver in a way I felt relieved. Because you know, if she buys her food in conventional food stores (like walmart or king supers) you never know what crap do they spray their meats with in order to make it look fresh for longer (not to mention hormones, antibiotics and pesticide residue), so I had mixed feelings about it anyway. Well, hopefully the puppy's instincts kick in once she is introduced to these foods at 8 weeks, after all her body should know what is good for it.

You certainly can't control for the quality of meat she would feed. This is why I am going to go with a natural reared puppy next time. I can assure you the pup's natural instincts will kick in. I didn't get my guy (Eng Mastiff) until he was 9 1/2 weeks old and started immediately on raw feeding, he took to it straightaway.

By the way, when you feed your dogs raw, do you wash the outside of the meat with hot water? I am just curious because I remember seeing a study about a year ago which showed high contamination of meat in the stores (they examined both conventional and health food stores) with MRSA (antibiotic resistant staph infection). I know that inside the stomach the acidity is probably too high for any of it to survive, but I wonder about getting it on the lips and around the mouth...

I do not wash the meat outside with hot water, but I do not give germs a moment's thought. My dog really enjoys 'aged' meat, when he gets a large piece of meat with bone, he likes to bury it and revisit it a few days later, he does this with chicken too, so washing it would be a total waste of time. Dogs' stomachs are much more acidic than humans, so they are able tolerate microbes without much problem. My dog, and no one in my family has ever gotten sick from the raw meat. The only time he got a digestive issue was when he was a puppy and ate some deer poop. I was able to resolve the diarrhea in a couple of days with colloidal silver.

Anyway, I guess I am just worried too much...much like a first time parent hysteria, you know . I used to work with dogs professionally (used to be a professional obedience trainer), but I haven't owned my own dog for over a decade now, so I feel like a first time mom to be all over again.
I remember being concerned when my boy was a pup, but as with babies, you soon become somewhat blaze after a while, it isn't easy to kill them off!

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#20 of 20 Old 08-05-2014, 04:22 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I remember being concerned when my boy was a pup, but as with babies, you soon become somewhat blaze after a while, it isn't easy to kill them off!
Thanks so much, Mirzam for putting me at ease . It's nerve-wrecking to feel "rusty" when an animal's life and well-being depends on you. But I know that by the time I get her, I will be up-to date on doggy's world of 21st century and ready to give this girls the best care possible . For once, I sure am happy to see that heart worms prevention meds are readily available these days!
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