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Old 08-06-2014, 06:14 PM - Thread Starter
 
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For doctors, how to convince parents to vax

http://www.mnaap.org/pdf/Making_the_...ines_MNAAP.pdf

They don't cover how to persuade the parent whose child has already reacted negatively to previous vaccines.
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Old 08-06-2014, 09:18 PM
 
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Likely because it's considered an extremely rare occurance.
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Old 08-06-2014, 09:46 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post
Likely because it's considered an extremely rare occurance.
There is something a bit circular about that.

Mother calls about various symptoms following a vaccination:

Doctor: "not related to the vaccine"
Mother: "how do you know?"
Doctor: "because vaccine reactions are very rare."

Consider that the babies in vaccine trials are screened, so when the vaccine goes into the general population it goes into babies with a lot of conditions that did not exist in the clinical trial. Of course more problems will turn up. But if doctors operate on the assumption that the clinical trial results cover everything of concern, they are likely to dismiss anything new that comes up, which works well for the "very rare" meme, but doesn't convince moms who take in a reasonably healthy baby and end up with one who is fairly sick after every round of vaccines. And eventually have a baby who is sick all the time.

Hey, whatever!
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Old 08-07-2014, 05:11 AM
 
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All you have to do is just change the words!

http://insurancenewsnet.com/oarticle...l#.U-Nd_1a69Zg

When asked if doctors are being asked to follow a script that equates mandatory and optional vaccinations, Jeff Necuzzi, director of immunization services for the West Virginia Bureau for Public Health, said the call-to-action only makes a suggestion.

"We're just trying to reinforce that providers need to strengthen their message when discussing vaccinations," he said. "They (doctors) shouldn't make a distinction that some are mandatory and one isn't."

But there is a clear distinction between mandatory and optional vaccinations, and it all has to do with the communicability of the disease they inoculate against.

 

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Old 08-07-2014, 05:14 AM
 
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Likely because it's considered an extremely rare occurance.
maybe if it keeps getting repeated "extremely rare" people will ALL believe it! NO- they aren't buying it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

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Old 08-07-2014, 06:38 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Just wanted to add that even if SERIOUS reactions (on the order of, say, major brain damage) are rare, doctors should be prepared to discuss the reactions that do occur and are mentioned in the package insert--everything from high fever, to hives, to prolonged screaming, to changes in eating and sleeping patterns--and be prepared to convince parents whose babies or toddlers suffered variously following vaccines that they should keep on vaxing. I think the failure to discuss this reality leaves doctors defenseless against parental distrust. Not all of it comes from the evil Internet.

At the very least, reasonable parents will want to know why vaccines can't be given one at a time after a baby has had a heavy-duty reaction. You know, trying to figure out which one caused the high fever or the prolonged screaming.
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Old 08-07-2014, 06:51 AM
 
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Likely because it's considered an extremely rare occurance.
1. We do not know how rare it is.

2. The thought that a child will have a severe reaction to a vaccine is probably the number one reason for lack of vaccine compliance.

If they do not address this, they do not stand a chance of convincing anyone.

(also - is "rare" a good reason not to worry? I kind of think it is, lol, but other people disagree. What are an unvaxxed childs chances of getting tetanus in the UK- 1 in a million or less? But I bet your kids are vaxxed for it.)

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Old 08-07-2014, 07:50 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Deborah View Post
http://www.mnaap.org/pdf/Making_the_...ines_MNAAP.pdf

They don't cover how to persuade the parent whose child has already reacted negatively to previous vaccines.
From the above link:

Quote:
The C.A.S.E. for Vaccines Created by Alison Singer, MD – President
– Autism Science Foundation
This is the same Alison Singer featured in that autism film discussing contemplating driving off the George Washington Bridge with her child w/ASD? When did she become a doctor? And a doctor of what? Her bio states:
Quote:
Singer graduated magna cum laude from Yale University with a B.A. in Economics and has an MBA from Harvard Business School. utism.yale.edu/guest-bios/alison-singer

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Old 08-07-2014, 07:57 AM
 
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Persuade rather than inform
And they can't understand why parents won't listen to them anymore?

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Old 08-07-2014, 08:39 AM
 
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Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post
1. We do not know how rare it is.

2. The thought that a child will have a severe reaction to a vaccine is probably the number one reason for lack of vaccine compliance.

If they do not address this, they do not stand a chance of convincing anyone.

(also - is "rare" a good reason not to worry? I kind of think it is, lol, but other people disagree. What are an unvaxxed childs chances of getting tetanus in the UK- 1 in a million or less? But I bet your kids are vaxxed for it.)

Huh, that's interesting. I don't think I saw this double standard before now.


It's extremely rare that a child who is not vaccinated and not sick will give a VPD to a vaccinated child, but the fear is enough to cause people to question the vax status of other kids, and some people want to prevent those kids from going to school.
It's extremely rare that a child in the US will have serious complications from rotavirus or chickenpox, yet it is on the vaccine schedule, and kids must get these shots because "what if."
It's extremely rare that a serious vaccine reaction will occur, so don't worry about it!

"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect." ~Mark Twain

 


 
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Old 08-07-2014, 08:56 AM
 
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Huh, that's interesting. I don't think I saw this double standard before now.


It's extremely rare that a child who is not vaccinated and not sick will give a VPD to a vaccinated child, but the fear is enough to cause people to question the vax status of other kids, and some people want to prevent those kids from going to school.
It's extremely rare that a child in the US will have serious complications from rotavirus or chickenpox, yet it is on the vaccine schedule, and kids must get these shots because "what if."
It's extremely rare that a serious vaccine reaction will occur, so don't worry about it!
ah, think you forgot one-

It's extremely rare that a parent is taken seriously about a reaction.


Remember, we can know our child had a high fever, we know if our child X disease but we can't know our child is no longer how they were prior to a vaccine or that there has been a reaction.

 

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Old 08-07-2014, 09:38 AM
 
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I took a brief look at the paper. A couple of things jumped out at me on the first few pages.


The first is the document said that America is culturally opposed to public health - which is quite the statement and I am not sure it is true.


It also said that doctors struggle with health literacy with patients. I do not doubt that is true in general. With regard to vaccination, most studies show that those who are deliberately sel/del or non-vax are well educated. I don't imagine "poor health literacy" being a significant issue.

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Old 08-07-2014, 09:49 AM
 
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From the OP link:

Quote:
Most of the time when our children get the flu, we don’t test for it, and so parents don’t know when their children have had the flu.
Well doc, then how would you know it was actually the flu and not the plethora of infectious diseases that can present as flu-like illness if you don't test for it?

Quote:
Our practice follows the CDC schedule because it is carefully designed to protect children at the time they are most vulnerable to disease
If the schedule is carefully designed, why did the amount of thimerosal children were receiving in their vaccines exceed the recommended allowance and come as a surprise to those in the field? And how can that be construed as protecting children?

Quote:
The F.D.A. team's conclusions were frightening. Vaccines added under Halsey's watch had tripled the dose of mercury that infants got in their first few months of life. As many as 30 million American children may have been exposed to mercury in excess of Environmental Protection Agency guidelines -- levels of mercury that, in theory, could have killed enough brain cells to scramble thinking or hex behavior.

''My first reaction was simply disbelief, which was the reaction of almost everybody involved in vaccines,'' Halsey says. ''In most vaccine containers, thimerosal is listed as a mercury derivative, a hundredth of a percent. And what I believed, and what everybody else believed, was that it was truly a trace, a biologically insignificant amount. My honest belief is that if the labels had had the mercury content in micrograms, this would have been uncovered years ago. But the fact is, no one did the calculation.''
my bold http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/10/ma...sm-theory.html

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Old 08-07-2014, 11:25 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I wrote:
Quote:
They don't cover how to persuade the parent whose child has already reacted negatively to previous vaccines.
Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post
Likely because it's considered an extremely rare occurance.
I didn't say "life-threatening" or "severe" or "massive". All I said was "reacted negatively".

That isn't "an extremely rare occurance." It is actually quite common. So is the doctor's response: "normal".
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Old 08-07-2014, 12:15 PM
 
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I wrote:


I didn't say "life-threatening" or "severe" or "massive". All I said was "reacted negatively".

That isn't "an extremely rare occurance." It is actually quite common. So is the doctor's response: "normal".
All it takes is for the words "negative" and "vaccine" to appear in the same sentence to generate the word "rare" in the response.

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Old 08-07-2014, 12:49 PM
 
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I took a brief look at the paper. A couple of things jumped out at me on the first few pages.


The first is the document said that America is culturally opposed to public health - which is quite the statement and I am not sure it is true.


It also said that doctors struggle with health literacy with patients. I do not doubt that is true in general. With regard to vaccination, most studies show that those who are deliberately sel/del or non-vax are well educated. I don't imagine "poor health literacy" being a significant issue.
IMO your comment on American's opposed to public health all could have been in how the question(s) was asked. Generally I would say it's quite accurate! Many LVE their Medicare - but loath Medicaid. Same way we expect the government to handle infrastructure but health, that is a "free market" OK to make profit attitude. Unlike other parts of the world that embrace public/universal care, us American's are mostly opposed to it. Charity is to pick up not government.

Literacy - since most who vaccinate (as I learned on another thread) are at 7th grade level, perhaps that is a factor??

 

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Old 08-07-2014, 12:59 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Public health usually refers specifically to certain sorts of programs. Water sanitation. Tracking down people who are spreading venereal diseases. Vaccination programs. Screening immigrants. Adding fluoride to the water supply.

General medical care falls into a different category, but the two areas do get blurred, with our personal doctors being pushed to vaccinate early and often. Another example is the laws mandating reporting of suspected child abuse.
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Old 08-07-2014, 01:16 PM
 
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Public health usually refers specifically to certain sorts of programs. Water sanitation. Tracking down people who are spreading venereal diseases. Vaccination programs. Screening immigrants. Adding fluoride to the water supply.

General medical care falls into a different category, but the two areas do get blurred, with our personal doctors being pushed to vaccinate early and often. Another example is the laws mandating reporting of suspected child abuse.
Just in the US, our hyper focus (that SOME hold) towards immigrants and diseases and vaccines IMO is awful!

 

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Old 08-07-2014, 01:37 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Yes, especially for those of us who know their history.

Yelling "disease" has often been one of the tools used to justify physical attacks on minority groups. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/01/he...anted=all&_r=0

some depressing examples in that article
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Old 08-07-2014, 02:01 PM
 
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IMO your comment on American's opposed to public health all could have been in how the question(s) was asked. Generally I would say it's quite accurate!
It is a pretty nuanced topic (might deserve its own thread actually: Are Americans culturally opposed to public health?)

In this instance, the statment was written as a reason people are reluctant to vaccinate. I do not think that is true. Non-vaxxers, IMHO, are not opposed to public health care. Many put their own health and that of their children ahead of government guidelines (perhaps even including guidelines on public health) but that does not make them anti-public health. It just means they put personal health above public health care policy.

Moreoever, I am a member of the public. If a decision keeps me healthy, even if it goes against broad-based guidelines, that is good for society.

(ETA: just to ensure everyone is on the same page - when I say "public health" I mean public health care initiatives - wash your hands, sneeze and cough hygiene, stay home when sick. I do not mean publicly paid/universal health care)

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Old 08-07-2014, 02:56 PM
 
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It is a pretty nuanced topic (might deserve its own thread actually: Are Americans culturally opposed to public health?)

In this instance, the statment was written as a reason people are reluctant to vaccinate. I do not think that is true. Non-vaxxers, IMHO, are not opposed to public health care. Many put their own health and that of their children ahead of government guidelines (perhaps even including guidelines on public health) but that does not make them anti-public health. It just means they put personal health above public health care policy.

Moreoever, I am a member of the public. If a decision keeps me healthy, even if it goes against broad-based guidelines, that is good for society.

(ETA: just to ensure everyone is on the same page - when I say "public health" I mean public health care initiatives - wash your hands, sneeze and cough hygiene, stay home when sick. I do not mean publicly paid/universal health care)
I feel public health here in the US is the health care system, initiatives I don't even see get a mention.

I do know many surveys (lots that have appeared on here)are asked in a way that you only have a select group of answers, many don't come close to fitting my views and by answering such stuff I can see how this comes off that way. I'm very opposed to what is viewed (IMO) as health care in the US. I wish there was this distinction but I don't see it. It should be, but over all I don't see. It would come off if any indication is from the online things regarding this as I am opposed. For the general populous I see them viewing the two "public health" as an over all issue, not one divided and I would say most are opposed in general.

 

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Old 08-07-2014, 03:13 PM
 
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I think this could backfire:

"More than 40% of school children get the flu on average every year”
“The vaccine works really well; it reduces the risk by 45 to 90% depending on the year”

40% of children get the flu?!?!? I am pretty sure they mean flu-like illnesses, which are not covered by the flu vaccine. Studies show that the vaccines only prevents about 1-4% of the population from getting the flu.
I have never heard of the flu vaccine going as high as 90% in efficacy.

If a doctor says something like 40% of the children get the flu and then says the flu vaccine is 45-90% effective, this is going to backfire in the trust/credability department if the parent knows anything about flu prevalence and vaccine efficacy.

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Old 08-07-2014, 03:35 PM
 
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I think this could backfire:

"More than 40% of school children get the flu on average every year”
“The vaccine works really well; it reduces the risk by 45 to 90% depending on the year”

40% of children get the flu?!?!? I am pretty sure they mean flu-like illnesses, which are not protecxted against with the flu vaccine. Studies show that the vaccines only prevents about 1-4% of the population from getting the flu.
I have never heard of the flu vaccine going as high as 90% in efficacy.

If a doctor says something like 40% of the children get the flu and then says the flu vaccine is 45-90% effective, this is going to backfire in the trust/credability department if the parent knows anything about flu prevalence and vaccine efficacy.
Yea, but is it? If you were vaccinated you get that pass you know, about how it can't be until lots of them come down with it and suddenly it's "well vaccines are not 100%" - I only hear that line "on line" - IRL I have yet to hear one mention it, I seem to live in an area where everyone thinks they are 101% effective!

I especially love that now my local jail is vaccinating now too, besides the nursing homes and both still get closed to the public because of "outbreaks" from residents.

I haven't spent enough time in Canada to see what they have there - Ad Council ads (basically billboards) - public service messages is what we have. Well there are two currently in my area, I can tell you there could be a better use of public money - IMO

These two add could/should really be about REAL public health issues, I would LOVE to see anything about washing hands - ever! What I currently see is how rhino horn isn't medicine and how tigers aren't blankets! I had two people ask me what rhino horn even was, none knew of ANYONE that would want it in this area! There currently are three billboard about it in this one rural area, let me tell you the per capital income for that area would not suggest anyone who even knows what it is could afford it. I also know few who desire tiger blankets but cover when you cough or wash you hands, NOPE, none of those!

I do see those signs in fast food restaurant for washing hands but those are not public service or govt paid for signs.

 

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Old 08-09-2014, 06:26 PM
 
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Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post
Likely because it's considered an extremely rare occurance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post
I think this could backfire:

"More than 40% of school children get the flu on average every year”
“The vaccine works really well; it reduces the risk by 45 to 90% depending on the year”
Yes, most doctors consider adverse reactions to vaccines to be an extremely rare occurrence.

But most doctors also believe that 40% of children get the flu every year, and that the flu vaccine works really well for children.

And they're wrong on all counts, thanks to the aggressive propaganda launched by the pharmaceutical industry/government.

I'm embarrassed to admit that I used to totally believe the propaganda, too.
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Old 08-09-2014, 06:29 PM
 
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It's also interesting that more and more doctors are recognizing that vaccines DO cause serious side effects more often than they'd been led to believe. Some of them, like Dr. Jacob Puliyel, head of pediatrics at St. Joseph's Hospital in Delhi, and Dr. Tom Jefferson of the Cochrane Review in Rome, are extremely upset at the politicization of vaccines, and have written extensively about this.
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