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#1 of 133 Old 08-09-2014, 07:20 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Another coincidence?

http://wgntv.com/2014/08/08/wisconsi...-doctor-visit/


Move along, people. Nothing to see here. Just another healthy (and athletic) child dying after an HPV vaccine...this time within hours of it's administration.


Don't lose faith in vaccines.
Don't ask questions.
Vaccines are very very safe.
The benefits outweigh the risks.


I do appreciate that this news station seems to want to know the truth, and that no one has yet said it definitely wasn't the vaccine. I hope, for the families sake, they find out the truth, no matter what the cause of death was.

"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect." ~Mark Twain

 


 
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#2 of 133 Old 08-09-2014, 07:52 AM
 
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Another "rare" reaction. What isn't rare about these cases is that the girls almost always are very athletic. Do they perhaps have more testosterone than other girls? Is this what is making them more susceptible to vaccine injury?

And that doctor needs to be named and shamed. A parent takes their child in because they are sick and this doctor thinks this is the opportune time to vaccinate? What besides greed could be the motive here?


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#3 of 133 Old 08-09-2014, 08:30 AM
 
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But, but, but, she did not die of cervical cancer, so the vaccine worked.

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#4 of 133 Old 08-09-2014, 06:39 PM
 
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"Vaccines are very, very safe, in particular, the HPV vaccine is safe." IN PARTICULAR? So he doesn't know that the HPV has more reports of serious adverse reactions than most vaccines?

Also disturbing is to see that someone wrote in the comments that they should be blaming the girl for getting her lip pierced, rather than the vaccine--even though the child was only 12, and nowhere near the legal age of consent for piercing. Hell, I had to give written consent for my 12-year-old to have her EARS pierced.

So why would someone try to discredit the mother, who claims that the ONLY thing out of the ordinary for the child was that she got that vaccine?
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#5 of 133 Old 08-09-2014, 07:35 PM
 
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What I find creepy is that so many people leap forward to defend the vaccine and are so upset that this WONDERFUL vaccine is associated with a death.

This "defend the vaccine program at all costs" attitude is weird.
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#6 of 133 Old 08-10-2014, 08:10 AM
 
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I find wierd the sense of glee I seem to see in some if these posts over a child's death - all because it might possibly associated with a vaccine reaction.

I also find wierd the assumption all vaccines are bad all the time and the idea that bad things never happen by coincidence right after vaccines....,
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#7 of 133 Old 08-10-2014, 08:25 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post
I find wierd the sense of glee I seem to see in some if these posts over a child's death - all because it might possibly associated with a vaccine reaction.

I also find wierd the assumption all vaccines are bad all the time and the idea that bad things never happen by coincidence right after vaccines....,


Trust me, there is no sense of glee. Only that of "another poor girl dies of what seems to be a vaccine reaction, yet it will do nothing to warrant further investigation into this vaccine". What you're mistaking as "glee", which I find totally offensive, is us being sad and disgruntled that this happened AGAIN and the vaccine is still being recommended to girls, and now boys.


And I find it odd that whenever any bad thing happens after a vaccine its always a coincidence and never the vaccine. You know that's how it goes. Perhaps we look like we "always" think it's the vaccine because we are the only ones entertaining the possibility that it could be the vaccine.

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#8 of 133 Old 08-10-2014, 09:04 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post
I find wierd the sense of glee I seem to see in some if these posts over a child's death - all because it might possibly associated with a vaccine reaction.

I also find wierd the assumption all vaccines are bad all the time and the idea that bad things never happen by coincidence right after vaccines....,
It is not glee. It is sadness…and anger…and frustration.

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#9 of 133 Old 08-10-2014, 10:26 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post
I find wierd the sense of glee I seem to see in some if these posts over a child's death - all because it might possibly associated with a vaccine reaction.

I also find wierd the assumption all vaccines are bad all the time and the idea that bad things never happen by coincidence right after vaccines....,
A agree with Kathy & littlec, I will say I find it weird how those who are "vaccine pushers" came out ASAP to blame the mom, this child's sore throat and the media.

Blaming the media for reporting this child DID die and it DID happen right after she got the shot, that is what DID occur but I read many on line posts slamming them for say exactly that. We also had another high profile death this week, now it's called a "murder" and the bullet that "caused this murder" happened in 1981, yet that was OK but not this one! Weird-IMO!

Blaming the mom for all sorts of reason, I don't get that at all!! I can't even grasp what type of person pushes of vaccines pushed an agenda over what this mom is going thought right now. I think that is a weird person, a very scary not right person!

Blaming the CHILD for being sick and that being the cause. First NO ONE knows since the labs are not back yet, so those who push vaccines DO NOT know for sure, but that hasn't stop the online attacks has it?

Where is this Dr??? IF this child was so sick why did she get the vaccine in the first place? I didn't read that the mom demanded the child be given it even though she was SO sick but I saw ZERO accountability directed at the medical person who's decision it was to administer it be even mentioned- why? Why not?

I did see a vaccine pusher who has ZERO medical experience, complain how this will hurt the "sales" of this vaccine. Gee, it wasn't doing well prior to begin with!

I did see a vaccine pusher come out "right away" and worry over the effect this will have, that to me means this life means nothing to the vaccine pusher. I DO blame those who push vaccines, I have ever right to my opinion and I have it!

 

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#10 of 133 Old 08-10-2014, 11:29 AM
 
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Another coincidence?

Maybe maybe not. We don't know. The link says she was also complaining of a sore throat before going to the doctor. It's very possible she had some other kind of virus or illness. Healthy young children do suddenly die. I remember posting several links to just such stories on a thread about a mother believing her son died from a flu vaccine.

It's tragic no matter the cause of death and I do find the tone that some non vaxxers use when discussing these stories strange and unnerving.

Seat belts can also sometimes kill people by trapping them inside a car, but they have saved many many more lives than they have killed and are therefore the safer bet.

I could post sad stories of young mothers in their 20s coming to grips with the fact that they have advanced stages of cervical cancer and they have run out of treatment options and are never going to see their children grow up, get married and have children of their own.

Both are sad, one is just significantly more likely to happen than the other.

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#11 of 133 Old 08-10-2014, 11:47 AM
 
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Vaccines are tested only on healthy persons. Anyone who is sick with anything is excluded from the trials.


No one knows what will happen if a person who is sick and already fighting an illness, such as a sore throat in this case, is given a vaccine, thereby introducing another virus/bacteria/fungus/germ/disease for the already compromised and weakened immune system to fight off.

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#12 of 133 Old 08-10-2014, 12:12 PM
 
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Are you seriously bringing up seatbelts in a discussion about a teen who died hours after receiving a vaccine?! My cousin was 19 years old, a genius IQ, hit by a drunk driver and died....entrapped in the car as it was consumed by flames. Coroner stated he was alive while the car was burning. I don't blame the seatbelt for killing him and preventing him from escaping or preventing someone from pulling him out; I don't blame the car either - I blame the drunk driver. You can't twist the scenario around to fit your needs.

How many more people have to die from this vaccine and have their stories covered up before people will wake up? It's tragic...there is no glee going on in this thread and I don't see how anyone could read into any of this that we're happy to see that someone had to die....
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#13 of 133 Old 08-10-2014, 12:37 PM
 
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Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
Another coincidence?

Maybe maybe not. We don't know. The link says she was also complaining of a sore throat before going to the doctor. It's very possible she had some other kind of virus or illness. Healthy young children do suddenly die. I remember posting several links to just such stories on a thread about a mother believing her son died from a flu vaccine.

It's tragic no matter the cause of death and I do find the tone that some non vaxxers use when discussing these stories strange and unnerving.

Seat belts can also sometimes kill people by trapping them inside a car, but they have saved many many more lives than they have killed and are therefore the safer bet.

I could post sad stories of young mothers in their 20s coming to grips with the fact that they have advanced stages of cervical cancer and they have run out of treatment options and are never going to see their children grow up, get married and have children of their own.

Both are sad, one is just significantly more likely to happen than the other.
This sounds like an excuse ridden justification for how this family has been treated-that's awful!

I see no condemnation for those vaccine pusher(s) who are often quoted on here, who started in before this child's funeral even took place..... Again simply awful behavior!

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#14 of 133 Old 08-10-2014, 01:05 PM
 
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Cervical cancer is not a huge killer of young or middle aged women.

Women who have advanced cervical cancer have other problems which will never be addressed by vaccination.

Deaths from cervical cancer have been dropping for decades because of better detection and treatment, not because of vaccination.

Gardasil is a worthless, expensive vaccine.

The only reason Gardasil was marketed was to help Merck stockholders recoup their losses from another pharmaceutical fiasco, vioxx.

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#15 of 133 Old 08-10-2014, 05:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post
I find wierd the sense of glee I seem to see in some if these posts over a child's death - all because it might possibly associated with a vaccine reaction.

I also find wierd the assumption all vaccines are bad all the time and the idea that bad things never happen by coincidence right after vaccines....,
Where is the glee?

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#16 of 133 Old 08-10-2014, 05:45 PM
 
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Glee? SERIOUSLY???? Do you know the actual meaning of the word?? Here it is: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/glee
glee (gl)
n.
Quote:
1. Jubilant delight; joy.
2. Music A part song scored for three or more usually male and unaccompanied voices that was popular in the 18th century.
[Middle English gle, entertainment, from Old English glo; see ghel-2 in Indo-European roots.]
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
glee (ɡliː)
n
1. great merriment or delight, often caused by someone else's misfortune
2. (Music, other) a type of song originating in 18th-century England, sung by three or more unaccompanied voices. Compare madrigal1
[Old English gléo; related to Old Norse glӯ]
Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003
glee (gli)

n.
1. exultant joy.
2. an unaccompanied part song for three or more voices.
[before 900; Middle English; Old English glēo; c. Old Norse glȳ; akin to glow]
Doesn't seem like too much 'glee' over a child's death is occurring in this post.
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#17 of 133 Old 08-10-2014, 06:04 PM
 
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I reread all of the starting posts on this thread and I don't see anyone expressing any positive emotions because of a young girl's sudden death. When I looked at her picture it hurt. My granddaughter is just two years older than this youngster.

What I hear is anger and frustration that deaths following vaccination are not properly investigated AND that people leap forward to defend the vaccine and vaccine program.
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Originally Posted by teacozy View Post

The link says she was also complaining of a sore throat before going to the doctor. It's very possible she had some other kind of virus or illness.
A child visits the doctor's office for a sore throat. She is given an HPV vaccine.

The doctor:

a.) decided that the 12 year old child complaining of a sore throat was well enough for a vaccine to prevent a sexually transmitted disease- it couldn't wait until another date.

b.) decided the 12 year old child, although quite ill, needed to have a vaccine to prevent a sexually transmitted disease at that appointment- it couldn't wait until another date.


Whether it was a or b, this type of medical decision making should scare every parent.

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#19 of 133 Old 08-10-2014, 06:28 PM
 
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Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post
I find wierd the sense of glee I seem to see in some if these posts over a child's death - all because it might possibly associated with a vaccine reaction.

I also find wierd the assumption all vaccines are bad all the time and the idea that bad things never happen by coincidence right after vaccines....,
Are you willing to accept as a hypothesis that this vaccine may be to blame for her death?

Would you support efforts to follow Japan's lead and suspend recommending this vaccine until we know for sure what is killing and debilitating young women after this shot?

Or should we just keep administering it routinely and cross our fingers that it's all just a coincidence?

What alarms me the most is how dismissive people are, (in this thread and in the news), of the sheer tragedy of this young girl's death. Because it threatens an ideology and a Cause, some will not even pause to validate the horror of the situation or to pay condolences. :-( For the doctor interviewed in the OP, it wasn't about a human life. It was about damage control.

ETA: These aren't rhetorical questions or questions to scroll past. I'd like to see you, (or at least Teacozy), respond to them.

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#20 of 133 Old 08-10-2014, 06:29 PM
 
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I've seen several pieces lately talking about doctors not speaking up for, or pushing this vaccine enough. For example, Merck is planning to "educate" doctors to get them to offer the vaccine to more kids. http://www.fiercevaccines.com/story/...ers/2014-07-30

Quote:
"Specifically, our efforts include medical education for healthcare providers, print advertising, in-office media and patient education materials, with additional programs to help ensure individuals receive all three recommended doses of Gardasil."
and this one, telling doctors not to miss a chance to vax against HPV:
http://www.jwatch.org/fw109096/2014/...unities-abound

Doctors are under pressure and it is only going to increase.
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#21 of 133 Old 08-10-2014, 07:07 PM
 
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Don't have time to respond to everybody, so just going to touch on a few points.

No, I would not support effort's to follow Japan's lead. Their decision to withdraw their recommendation has been highly criticized by researchers at Tokyo University and elsewhere as a "failure of governance" for making the decision by a 3:2 vote without presentation of scientific evidence.

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/la...831-0/fulltext

Further, Japan has a pretty terrible history of withdrawing or changing vaccine recommendations without sufficient evidence, resulting in preventable outbreaks and deaths.

For example:

They stopped requiring the rubella vaccine to enter school and also stopped recommending the vaccine to males.

What happened was a huge rubella outbreak effecting thousands of people and causing many babies to be born with congential rubella syndrome in 2012-2013.

"About 15 000 cases of rubella and 43 cases of congenital rubella syndrome were reported to the National Epidemiological Surveillance of Infectious Diseases between Oct 15, 2012, and March 2, 2014, as a result of the 2012-13 rubella outbreak in Japan.1 This resurgence of rubella has mainly affected adult men aged 35-51 years who had not received routine rubella vaccine during their childhood when only school girls were vaccinated, and men and women aged 24-34 years whose vaccine coverage rates were relatively low.


The lessons learnt from this outbreak can be of value for other countries."

http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article....icleid=1724286

They made the same mistake with pertussis.

"In 1974, Japan had a successful pertussis (whooping cough) vaccination program, with nearly 80% of Japanese children vaccinated. That year only 393 cases of pertussis were reported in the entire country, and there were no deaths from pertussis. But then rumors began to spread that pertussis vaccination was no longer needed and that the vaccine was not safe, and by 1976 only 10% of infants were getting vaccinated. In 1979 Japan suffered a major pertussis epidemic, with more than 13,000 cases of whooping cough and 41 deaths. In 1981 the government began vaccinating with acellular pertussis vaccine, and the number of pertussis cases dropped again."

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/why.htm

So no, I do not think we should follow their lead and am glad we didn't do so in the other two cases just listed.

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#22 of 133 Old 08-10-2014, 07:20 PM
 
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They made the same mistake with pertussis.

"In 1974, Japan had a successful pertussis (whooping cough) vaccination program, with nearly 80% of Japanese children vaccinated. That year only 393 cases of pertussis were reported in the entire country, and there were no deaths from pertussis. But then rumors began to spread that pertussis vaccination was no longer needed and that the vaccine was not safe, and by 1976 only 10% of infants were getting vaccinated. In 1979 Japan suffered a major pertussis epidemic, with more than 13,000 cases of whooping cough and 41 deaths. In 1981 the government began vaccinating with acellular pertussis vaccine, and the number of pertussis cases dropped again."

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/why.htm

So no, I do not think we should follow their lead and am glad we didn't do so in the other two cases just listed.
There is something seriously weird about this pertussis story and I'm surprised you didn't notice it Teacozy. The acellular vaccine that they began to use in 1981 is either similar to, or identical to the one we are currently using in the US. The one which is being blamed for huge outbreaks of pertussis (when non-vaxers are not blamed directly, they are blamed for complaining about the old vaccine and causing the substitution of this terrible vaccine) and partially blamed for baby deaths because the vaccine doesn't work as well as the old whole-cell vaccine.

So here are the pieces that immediately leap out at me--
1) If the acellular vaccine doesn't provide very long-term immunity, how in the world has Japan managed for 30 plus years with this ineffective vaccine?

2) If the acellular vaccine isn't terribly effective in babies, how did the incidence of pertussis and the death rate in babies plummet as soon as they started vaxing again?

3) Nowadays, due at least partly to the short term action of the acellular pertussis vaccine, teens need to be vaxed, adults need to be vaxed, pregnant women need to be vaxed, grandparents need to be vaxed. Japan should have been the first place in the world to run into vaccine failure problems from the acellular vaccine since they started using it way ahead of everyone else. Where are all the stories about pertussis disaster in Japan?

Last edited by Deborah; 08-10-2014 at 07:22 PM. Reason: left out a word
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#23 of 133 Old 08-10-2014, 07:27 PM
 
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@Deb

The pertussis vaccine is effective, it just wanes more quickly than most other vaccines. It is certainly more effective that not vaccinating at all, as evidence by the above Japan example.

I'll also note that "natural" pertussis immunity can also wane in as little as 5 years.

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#24 of 133 Old 08-10-2014, 08:03 PM
 
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Well, natural pertussis immunity can wane, but as a never vaxed person who has been exposed multiple times and has never had a clinical case, my natural immunity has held up for at least 55 years.

I'm not complaining.

And I think that there should be some stories about the terrible problems in Japan following their switch to the acellular vaccine. Either it worked in Japan and the problems in the US are from another cause, or pertussis vaccine failure is one of those things that only can be seen when needed--when there is a reason to push the vaccine into millions of people who used to be okay without it--but now have to be vaxed over and over.

Darned weird the way the science shifts around.
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#25 of 133 Old 08-10-2014, 08:20 PM
 
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Also adding that I'm not sure what insensitive/dismissive comments people are talking about? I said her death is tragic no matter what the ultimate cause was, and it is.

I keep getting the feeling from these forums that some NV members want us to speak for/answer to comments made by random pro vaccine people on the internet or in comments from news stories etc.

Why is that?

When the story came out about a mother whose daughter died from chickenpox and then became staunchly pro vaccine afterwards, some comments from non vaccine people were atrocious. Claiming the mother made the story up, or was being paid to tell the story etc. I certainly wouldn't extrapolate those comments as something EVERY non vax person feels, or as something non vax members here feel or should have to explain/answer for. I mean, there are extremes on both sides.

Here is a link of some screen shots of comments made by non vaxxers about the child who died from chickenpox.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/218510380/...n9d7ae3359njmv

For example:


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#26 of 133 Old 08-10-2014, 08:27 PM
 
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http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1029211528.htm

more accurate numbers on the duration of natural immunity.
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#27 of 133 Old 08-10-2014, 08:31 PM
 
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Also it is extremely interesting that the Japanese HAVE NOT been converted to total trust in vaccination despite the two dreadful experiences they've undergone as a consequence of suspending vaccines. They STILL went ahead and suspended the recommendation for the HPV vaccines. This is interesting in light of the belief that deaths from infectious disease will make people trust vaccines and stop being concerned about side-effects. I wonder why this hasn't worked in Japan?
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#28 of 133 Old 08-10-2014, 08:35 PM
 
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Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
Also adding that I'm not sure what insensitive/dismissive comments people are talking about? I said her death is tragic no matter what the ultimate cause was, and it is.

I keep getting the feeling from these forums that some NV members want us to speak for/answer to comments made by random pro vaccine people on the internet or in comments from news stories etc.

Why is that?

When the story came out about a mother whose daughter died from chickenpox and then became staunchly pro vaccine afterwards, some comments from non vaccine people were atrocious. Claiming the mother made the story up, or was being paid to tell the story etc. I certainly wouldn't extrapolate those comments as something EVERY non vax person feels, or as something non vax members here feel or should have to explain/answer for. I mean, there are extremes on both sides.

Here is a link of some screen shots of comments made by non vaxxers about the child who died from chickenpox.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/218510380/...n9d7ae3359njmv

For example:

Really?!?

I have a quote where a pro-vaxxer says non-vaxxers like to masturbate over dead babies - and even on this thread a pro-vaxxer has said non-vaxxers are gleeful over a childs death.

We could go round and round on who is bitchier and more prone to making vile or insensitive comments- I think pro-vaxxers are by far, but we will never sort it out as it is not quantifiable.

This really isn't the point of the thread, though.

A child is dead - possibly because of the vaccines. I would like a vaxxer to say that: a child died, and vaccination cannot be ruled out as a cause at this point.

There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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Last edited by kathymuggle; 08-10-2014 at 09:00 PM.
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#29 of 133 Old 08-10-2014, 08:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post
Bolding mine. Your link did not show people saying this - at all. The link showed people being insensitive, perhaps, although certainly NOT as insensitve as saying non-vaxxers are gleeful over a childs death.


Kathy

Yes it did. Exact quotes from my link:

"I genuinely do not believe this is a real story"

"Who does she work for?"

"I wonder how much she is getting paid"

At least someone spoke up and said "questioning who she is working for when her child died is pretty ghoulish..."

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
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#30 of 133 Old 08-10-2014, 08:47 PM
 
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Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post
I find wierd the sense of glee I seem to see in some if these posts over a child's death - all because it might possibly associated with a vaccine reaction.

I also find wierd the assumption all vaccines are bad all the time and the idea that bad things never happen by coincidence right after vaccines....,
If you believe you are seeing anything resembling glee in ANY post here on this thread, about the child's death, perhaps you need to take a break.

It's bad enough that you dismiss our concerns over vaccine safety, and that you have questioned the validity of parental observation of vaccine adverse effects. But to accuse any of us here of GLEE, knowing that some of us have had terrifying experiences of our own due to vaccine reactions?

If that's your view of us here, then I urge you to take a break, for your own sanity and for ours.
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