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Vaccinations > CDC whistleblower - CDC knew MMR autism risk in African American boys 4 times higher
beckybird's Avatar beckybird 01:07 PM 08-22-2014
What is so telling?

beckybird's Avatar beckybird 01:10 PM 08-22-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
I disagree that autism has a cure, medically speaking. Some children improve, but there isn't a cure.

.
So, when a child improves so much they lose their official autism diagnosis, that's not considered a cure??? Ok. We'll call it a drastic, life changing "improvement", instead of the nasty "c" word.....after all, only a pharmaceutical is capable of "curing" disease and illness.
Mirzam's Avatar Mirzam 01:11 PM 08-22-2014
"The whistleblower inside the CDC says it's even more corrupt than a few cases of bribery. He says, 'The CDC is so hellbent on creating a safe narrative for vaccines, they are completely overlooking any evidence that points to autism."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEq2-snxO8g

This is about the CDC deliberately hiding and manipulating important information on vaccines and autism, it is not about Andrew Wakefield.
teacozy's Avatar teacozy 01:12 PM 08-22-2014
From Orac :

"I did figure, however, that [non vaxxers] would pull the “racist” canard at me over my pointing out to them (at least their most prominent faces) that they can’t have it both ways. If they believe this study, then they are accepting that both Destefano et al and Hooker’s study show no evidence of increased risk of autism in any child who isn’t an African-American male, which means Hooker’s study doesn’t provide evidence supporting the belief in MMR causation of autism in the vast majority of children portrayed by the movement as “vaccine-injured.”

So, do you concede that, if this study is correct (BIG if), there is no link between the MMR and autism for the vast majority of the population and that many many many moms in the anti vaccine movement were wrong?
Mirzam's Avatar Mirzam 01:15 PM 08-22-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
I disagree that autism has a cure, medically speaking. Some children improve, but there isn't a cure.

I find it telling that that is the point people chose to focus on out of the whole blog, though. Telling indeed.
According to medical authorities autism is not medical, if it was then doctors would be treating symptoms, ie bowel disease.

Quote:
au·tism
ˈôˌtizəm/Submit
noun
a mental condition, present from early childhood, characterized by difficulty in communicating and forming relationships with other people and in using language and abstract concepts.

Deborah's Avatar Deborah 01:15 PM 08-22-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by beckybird View Post
More from the Pox blog:

IF "the assertions of the video are true, Wakefield and his “Autism Media Channel” chose to sit on the information in order to make a good video (and maybe even a good buck) while thousands upon thousands of African-American babies continued to receive the MMR vaccine the world over."

Ehhh Wrong again!! If the assertions are true, then the CDC is responsible, not Wakefield and Hooker. Get that straight right now. I also like how included in this ridiculous paragraph is the part about making a "good buck" off the info. Lol, good one.
Yes, indeed. Merck in one of their legal filings, blames the whistleblowers for mumps outbreaks. They took too long to speak up, you see. This is beyond chutzpah.
teacozy's Avatar teacozy 01:17 PM 08-22-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by beckybird View Post
What is so telling?
Because no one is addressing his criticisms of the study in question, they are addressing minor points that are irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. Which, like I said, is telling.
Deborah's Avatar Deborah 01:22 PM 08-22-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
From Orac :

"I did figure, however, that [non vaxxers] would pull the “racist” canard at me over my pointing out to them (at least their most prominent faces) that they can’t have it both ways. If they believe this study, then they are accepting that both Destefano et al and Hooker’s study show no evidence of increased risk of autism in any child who isn’t an African-American male, which means Hooker’s study doesn’t provide evidence supporting the belief in MMR causation of autism in the vast majority of children portrayed by the movement as “vaccine-injured.”

So, do you concede that, if this study is correct (BIG if), there is no link between the MMR and autism for the vast majority of the population and that many many many moms in the anti vaccine movement were wrong?
Well, no, not actually. All we would know is that the CDC covered up data in one study. If they covered up data in one study...oh my goodness...they might have covered up data in other studies. And there might, indeed, be evidence showing that MMR risk exists for children who are not of African descent. Perhaps the risk is only 1/4 or 1/2.

We don't know anything about causes of autism at this point. All we know is that some of the data may have been altered to cover up possible causes that were inconvenient.

I find it quite telling that you buy that interpretation of this study Teacozy.
Mirzam's Avatar Mirzam 01:27 PM 08-22-2014
So teacozy you are agreeing with Gorski that if this study is legit, then the CDC deliberately and willfully covered up a marker in a study that pointed to vaccine safety issue? What else are they covering up?
Deborah's Avatar Deborah 01:28 PM 08-22-2014
To take this a bit further--

let us say that for the vast majority of kids, the MMR is okay. But if a child has messed up gut bacteria due to C-section, formula feeding or multiple doses of antibiotics, then the MMR can be a disaster. If it isn't as simple as MMR = autism but there are multiple factors in play, it would take a fair amount of honest digging to sort it out.

Another possible line of thinking would involve mitochondrial problems. There is research showing that significant numbers of people with autism also have messes with their mitochondria. Now, back in the day when thimerosal was in lots of vaccines, someone found a connection between exposure to thimerosal and problems with mitochondria. So then we have a sequence that looks like this: exposure to thimerosal, gradual decline in mitochondrial function, child receives MMR, autism follows. In that scenario, MMR might look like the "cause" but it is more like the last straw on a camel that was ready to collapse. Again, honest digging needed to figure out what is happening.

Will we get some honest research? I'm not holding my breath.
teacozy's Avatar teacozy 01:46 PM 08-22-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deborah View Post
Well, no, not actually. All we would know is that the CDC covered up data in one study. If they covered up data in one study...oh my goodness...they might have covered up data in other studies. And there might, indeed, be evidence showing that MMR risk exists for children who are not of African descent. Perhaps the risk is only 1/4 or 1/2.

We don't know anything about causes of autism at this point. All we know is that some of the data may have been altered to cover up possible causes that were inconvenient.

I find it quite telling that you buy that interpretation of this study Teacozy.
Read what he said carefully.

"I did figure, however, that [non vaxxers] would pull the “racist” canard at me over my pointing out to them (at least their most prominent faces) that they can’t have it both ways. If they believe this study, then they are accepting that both Destefano et al and Hooker’s study show no evidence of increased risk of autism in any child who isn’t an African-American male, which means Hooker’s study doesn’t provide evidence supporting the belief in MMR causation of autism in the vast majority of children portrayed by the movement as “vaccine-injured.”

Point being, if you believe this study, then you must also concede that it showed no increase in risk of autism for any child that is not a black male.

It's not a slam dunk study for the vast majority of people in the anti vaccine movement.

Alright, gotta go now.
kathymuggle's Avatar kathymuggle 01:54 PM 08-22-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
From Orac :


So, do you concede that, if this study is correct (BIG if), there is no link between the MMR and autism for the vast majority of the population and that many many many moms in the anti vaccine movement were wrong?
Of course not. The way to show whether or not MMR increases autism on a population level would be to have several well constructed, unbiased studies where a large unvaxxed population is compared to a large population vaxxed with MMR. That, to the best of my knowledge, has not hapenned.

This study, as far as I know (and I have not gone over the numbers or even the study at this point myself) shows that male African American males who are vaccinated on schedule with MMR are more likely to develop autism than other children vaccinated on schedule with MMR. It doesn't talk about the rate in unvaccinated children at all.

ETA: from the Hooker study.
http://www.translationalneurodegener.../1/16/abstract

"The purpose of this study is to investigate the effectof the age at which children got their first Measles-Mumps-Rubella (MMR) vaccine on autism incidence. This is a reanalysis of the data set, obtained from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Protection (CDC), used for the Destefano et al. 2004 publication on the timing of the first MMR vaccine and autism diagnoses."
Deborah's Avatar Deborah 01:54 PM 08-22-2014
So one study is to end all discussion of vaccine causation. I love the spin! Brilliant. Strikes me as brutally dishonest, but it is clever.
Deborah's Avatar Deborah 02:03 PM 08-22-2014
What Orac is trying to do:

Distract from the fact that the CDC apparently falsified data to cover up a connection between MMR and autism in one segment of the population.

If the CDC did falsify data that is a slam-dunk for the vaccine critics.
kathymuggle's Avatar kathymuggle 02:14 PM 08-22-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post

Point being, if you believe this study, then you must also concede that it showed no increase in risk of autism for any child that is not a black male.

It's not a slam dunk study for the vast majority of people in the anti vaccine movement.
Did the study look at autism rates in the unvaccinated? If they didn't it shows no such thing.

A higher autism rate among male African Americans who receive the vaccine on schedule compared to other groups who receive it on schedule is a HUGE deal. A cover-up (if there was one) is an equally HUGE deal.

There seems to be this implication that we should not care about African American children if we are not African American. I would like to see Orac answer to that.

I can see this being a slam-dunk for vaccine critics. Oh, I don't think it will cause people to trun away from vaxxing in droves, but it will be a "con" in the pro/con list. Vaccine wars are not exclusively about studies. In some ways there is so much data that people can manipulate it the way they want it to go. That is why reasonable people can come to quite different conclusions. Vaccine issues are largely about trust - and everything that causes a problem with trust is an issue.
Deborah's Avatar Deborah 02:26 PM 08-22-2014
Quote:
There seems to be this implication that we should not care about African American children if we are not African American. I would like to see Orac answer to that.


Also, very interesting in light of the high rate of autism diagnoses in the Somali population especially in Minnesota.
samaxtics's Avatar samaxtics 02:50 PM 08-22-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
I disagree that autism has a cure, medically speaking. Some children improve, but there isn't a cure.

I find it telling that that is the point people chose to focus on out of the whole blog, though. Telling indeed.
My apologies.

I missed your post where you stated "if true, the CDC has nothing but my contempt...".

What does it tell us that you haven't addressed the missing information no matter what race it affects?
But Orac (and thereby you) are missing the picture; if the CDC lied about this, what else have/do/will they lie about? Why won't they send that requested FOI material to that congressman?
And how could they keep information from the public that could have saved a lot of families a lot of grief? WHAT ABOUT THOSE FAMILIES TEACOZY? Do you even care one whit for them?
samaxtics's Avatar samaxtics 03:21 PM 08-22-2014
I seriously do not understand why anyone reads Orac's drivel let alone uses it to bolster their argument.

Quote:
Indeed, in this video, Wakefield even admits that he was mostly wrong about MMR and autism. Let that sink in again. He admits that he was mostly wrong about MMR and autism. OK, he says we were “partially right,” but the flip side of that is that he must have been mostly wrong.
Is he pretending to be that thick? So partially right means you are mostly wrong??? Seriously, wtf? How about partially right means although they understood timing of the MMR might play a huge role they were as yet unaware that one race (or maybe it is a different factor that hasn't been teased out YET) can be more impacted than another by timing?

No where did Wakefield say he was mostly wrong. Why is Orac lying? Does he aspire to work for the CDC?

And in light of the events in Ferguson, does Orac really not get the tie to the Tuskegee Experiment? Evidently not!
Couldn't read his crap any further, I felt my brain melting.
Deborah's Avatar Deborah 03:28 PM 08-22-2014
samaxtics's Avatar samaxtics 03:45 PM 08-22-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deborah View Post
Dorit seems to have the same issues understanding the relevance to the Tuskegee Experiment (in the comments of Deborah's link).

wow
Mirzam's Avatar Mirzam 03:46 PM 08-22-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deborah View Post
Loving the comments.
samaxtics's Avatar samaxtics 04:37 PM 08-22-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirzam View Post
Loving the comments.
Out of 83 comments, 1/4 of them are from Dorit. You can smell the smoke from her keyboard.
applejuice's Avatar applejuice 04:38 PM 08-22-2014
Deny, deny, DENY, DENY!
prosciencemum's Avatar prosciencemum 06:22 PM 08-22-2014
Been on holiday and I'm thinking this isn't a thread I can catch up on!

I did read the paper linked up thread. So it's a re-analysis if old data using a different statistical technique than was done previously. This re-analysis finds a mild statistical significance increase in autistic kids in one of four subgroups who had MMR before one of two times which were tested - so using a data set to test 8 hypotheses and finds evidence for one. This is tricky statistically - it's should be called correlation fishing. I'm not saying it's not true - I hope it's followed up ASAP with (yet more) checks. But the method means we need really high statistical significance to use it as proof.

And I've yet to see any proof the earlier study was fraud. It is totally possible to use the same data to find different conclusions using different techniques - especially if the result is marginal.

Is there proof of fraud I've missed (Wakefield said so doesn't work for me).

Are we accepting this study as proof of no link between autism and MMR in girls and white boys?
samaxtics's Avatar samaxtics 08:41 PM 08-22-2014
I think the timeline went something like this (based on the video on vimeo):

CDC researcher whose name is on the paper wants to come clean and contacts Brian Hooker to confess.
He supplies documents. Brian Hooker looks at the raw data and confirms a group of African American children were removed from the study.
They go public.

I think the testimony of the CDC researcher who was part of that paper is a key component. I read that he was removed from CDC property yesterday.
kathymuggle's Avatar kathymuggle 08:53 PM 08-22-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

Are we accepting this study as proof of no link between autism and MMR in girls and white boys?
Absolutely not. I know you have not read the whole thread, so I will recap a post I made earlier.

"Of course not. The way to show whether or not MMR increases autism on a population level would be to have several well constructed, unbiased studies where a large unvaxxed population is compared to a large population vaxxed with MMR. That, to the best of my knowledge, has not hapenned.

This study…. shows that male African American males who are vaccinated on schedule with MMR are more likely to develop autism than other children vaccinated on schedule with MMR. It doesn't talk about the rate in unvaccinated children at all.

ETA: from the Hooker study.
http://www.translationalneurodegener.../1/16/abstract

"The purpose of this study is to investigate the effect of the age at which children got their first Measles-Mumps-Rubella (MMR) vaccine on autism incidence..."
Mirzam's Avatar Mirzam 08:31 AM 08-23-2014
samaxtics's Avatar samaxtics 08:37 AM 08-23-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirzam View Post
That link doesn't work for me.
Mirzam's Avatar Mirzam 08:55 AM 08-23-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by samaxtics View Post
That link doesn't work for me.
Fixed.
Mirzam's Avatar Mirzam 08:57 AM 08-23-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post
Are we accepting this study as proof of no link between autism and MMR in girls and white boys?
Hmm... there was a 200 percent increase in autism in caucasian boys given MMR before 36 months.
Tags: cdc , fraud , Mmr
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