CDC whistleblower - CDC knew MMR autism risk in African American boys 4 times higher - Page 7 - Mothering Forums

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#181 of 469 Old 08-25-2014, 01:52 PM - Thread Starter
 
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We have no way of knowing what discussions have taken place between Hooker, Wakefield and Thompson and his lawyer. So I won't be blaming Wakefield or Hooker for anything at this point.
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#182 of 469 Old 08-25-2014, 02:39 PM
 
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Nothing about Thompson, but the CDC just released this:

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Con...ediatrics.html

I'm not seeing in the Hooker paper anything about a difference in inclusion/exclusion of birth certificate data, so I'm not sure what to make of this, yet.
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#183 of 469 Old 08-25-2014, 02:50 PM
 
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That statement reads like some sort of obfuscation to me, but I'm not sure exactly what sort of obfuscation.

So they did exclude children without Georgia birth certificates from some of the data analysis.

That wasn't made up.

The question is whether it was done to hide a problem or for the innocent sounding reasons described in the CDC statement.

Remember the Verstraeten analysis? For that one, data from another HMO was added into the original data sets. Critics claim that this was done to hide an obvious bump in neurological problems in the children who got the most exposure to thimerosal.
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#184 of 469 Old 08-25-2014, 02:51 PM
 
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From the CDC link:

Quote:
Access to the information on the birth certificates allowed researchers to assess more complete information on race as well as other important characteristics, including possible risk factors for autism such as the child’s birth weight, mother’s age, and education.
Is mother's education listed on birth records?
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#185 of 469 Old 08-25-2014, 02:53 PM
 
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Originally Posted by samaxtics View Post
Not sure how Wakefield is making money. And I would sincerely doubt that he is looking for fame. Every flamin' article about measles or vaccines never fails to bring up his name.
Let's not forget that this is the man who had his license to practice removed for daring to speak out. If his insurance would have paid for him to appeal at the same time Professor Walker Smith appealed, he would have been exonerated too. So who would blame him for being on top of a claim that the CDC colluded to remove incriminating data regarding the MMR?

Without interviews of the principal players, all we can do is speculate. I heard an interview of Brian Hooker from last year that actually makes me wonder if there are more people inside the CDC that are trying to get the info out. Perhaps Thompson saw the writing on the wall (that the released info would incriminate him) and decided to come clean. Maybe they need to do this piecemeal to thwart more coverups by the CDC (or silencing the witness).

I'm sure you are aware, but in case you (or anyone else) isn't, when you click a website, they get revenue from ads placed on the sidebar, their stats go up, and they can then charge more from their advertisers. I'm not saying they are doing this for money, but the natural news site specifically is using this to increase traffic to their website. It is obvious to me in the way they are publishing articles. And I'm not saying Wakefield (or anyone) is doing this for fame. I meant displaying this in a seemingly PR fashion is for their own agenda; it doesn't negate what they are saying, but it gives me pause. Wanting to see everything play out before saying, "I knew it!!" is not wrong. It's wise.


And I agree with you that all we can do is speculate. That's why I'm not jumping to any conclusions yet.
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#186 of 469 Old 08-25-2014, 02:58 PM
 
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I'm confused. Is Dr. Wakefield a part owner of Natural News?
My post was specifically about Dr. Wakefield if that clarifies things.
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#187 of 469 Old 08-25-2014, 03:01 PM
 
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I don't trust Natural News as a source. When I do read an article there I always go to the sources he lists to see if I agree with his "slant". I do that with the CDC too
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#188 of 469 Old 08-25-2014, 03:12 PM
 
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Originally Posted by samaxtics View Post
From the CDC link:
Is mother's education listed on birth records?
Yes, in some states and counties it is.

The mother's race, ethnicity, age, live births, terminations, miscarriages, total times pregnant, who paid for the prenatal care, what month of pregnancy the prenatal care began, the mother's career, complications of labor, manner of birth, and many other variables are listed on the part of the birth certificate that YOU do not get. Since I filled my own out as a homebirth mother, I knew what was put on those things. The information is collected throughout the pregnancy.

Frankly, none of this is anyone's business. If the information was used to improve maternal and infant mortality and morbidity rates I would not mind, but too many times the information is used AGAINST a mother and her family in most cases.
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#189 of 469 Old 08-25-2014, 03:46 PM
 
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Originally Posted by samaxtics View Post
I'm confused. Is Dr. Wakefield a part owner of Natural News?
My post was specifically about Dr. Wakefield if that clarifies things.


Nooooooo, but you quoted me when I said everyone has their own agenda, whether it be fame OR credibility OR money, and that Natural News nor Wakefield are excluded from that. I saw that you were specifically talking about Wakefield, but since I lumped them together initially, I wanted to be extra clear what I meant by anyone (not just Wakefield) earning money off of this.


My point is I don't like the way the information is coming out, even if it is 100% accurate. Sure, there may be legalities I have not considered, they might have a great, non self serving reason for how they release information, but until their cards are on the table, I won't be posting this on my social media outlets nor will I be signing petitions for class action lawsuits.


I also don't think at the end of the day, when all is said and done HOW they present the info should affect it's credibility, so long as it is credible, factual information. But right now, I'm still on a "wait and see", if that makes sense.
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#190 of 469 Old 08-25-2014, 04:19 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mamakay View Post
Nothing about Thompson, but the CDC just released this:

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Con...ediatrics.html
Vaccines protect the health of children in the United States so well that most parents today have never seen first-hand the devastating consequences of diseases now stopped by vaccines.

However, our 2014 measles count is the highest number since measles was declared eliminated in 2000. We do not want to lose any opportunity to protect all of our children when we have the means to do so.



What timing! So much to loose! Back to school vaccine, starting K vaccines, flu shots - lots on that boat....... that fear being rocked! $$$$$$$$$ lots of confidence can be lost I think timing matters and everything is done for a reason!
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#191 of 469 Old 08-25-2014, 04:30 PM
 
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Nooooooo, but you quoted me when I said everyone has their own agenda, whether it be fame OR credibility OR money, and that Natural News nor Wakefield are excluded from that. I saw that you were specifically talking about Wakefield, but since I lumped them together initially, I wanted to be extra clear what I meant by anyone (not just Wakefield) earning money off of this.


My point is I don't like the way the information is coming out, even if it is 100% accurate. Sure, there may be legalities I have not considered, they might have a great, non self serving reason for how they release information, but until their cards are on the table, I won't be posting this on my social media outlets nor will I be signing petitions for class action lawsuits.


I also don't think at the end of the day, when all is said and done HOW they present the info should affect it's credibility, so long as it is credible, factual information. But right now, I'm still on a "wait and see", if that makes sense.
I don't know much about Natural News but I don't think Dr. Wakefield should be lumped in with it (the reason why I only addressed Dr. Wakefield and not NN from your post). I think if Dr. Wakefield was motivated by money and fame (as opposed to notoriety) he would have kept his mouth shut and enjoyed a great career as a researcher/gastroenterologist. He would have been better rewarded for maintaining the status quo similar to the likes of Dr. Thompson, Dr. Stefano and Dr. Boyle (should the allegations prove to be true).

With all the negative publicity Dr. Wakefield gets, I would imagine he would have his all ducks in a row before coming out publicly with something. There may be legal reasons for the way info is being put out there but it could also be due to the fact that unfavourable stories get buried fast. Doling this story out piece by piece may be one way to control for that.
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#192 of 469 Old 08-25-2014, 05:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mamakay View Post
Nothing about Thompson, but the CDC just released this:

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Con...ediatrics.html

I'm not seeing in the Hooker paper anything about a difference in inclusion/exclusion of birth certificate data, so I'm not sure what to make of this, yet.

And this is exactly why you can't just take Wakefield's word for things. He made it sound like only black children without birth certificates were excluded (or at the very least disproportionally excluded), which we don't know is the case. Children from all races were excluded because they didn't have a birth certificate.

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#193 of 469 Old 08-25-2014, 06:04 PM
 
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A comment from SBM

"In the Abstract, Methods, and Discussion, Hooker says he used Pearson’s chi squared test. But all four data tables are labeled Fisher’s exact analysis. I’m pretty sure those are not the same test (e.g. see this SAS page). That’s a pretty glaring error! It suggests that Hooker either didn’t realize that the tests are different, or consistently mislabeled his Tables and never noticed, or perhaps that he evaluated the data with both tests and was too careless to ensure that the final manuscript was consistent.

Hooker also claims, in the Methods, that the Pearson’s chi squared [sic] results were confirmed by “a conditional logistic regression design similar to the Destefano et al. If so, why didn’t he bother to actually show that result? It’s not as if he was under a strict page limit.

Next, I note that Hooker didn’t indicate the number of subjects being analyzed in each group for each of his tables. In fact, the original DeStefano publication says that 93.4% of cases were vaccinated by 36 months. That means that there were only 41 total children with autism that were in the >36 month group. If 20% of those were African American, that’s only 8 kids.

Most important, of course, is that even if this association is real, is there any good reason to think it’s causal? Hooker certainly doesn’t provide one. In particular, why is the association strongest in children who received their first MMR after 36 months, weaker in the >24 group, and non-significant in the >18 group? That makes little sense if MMR is actually a causative factor. It would mean that MMR only causes autism in African American boys, and even then, only if the vaccine is NOT given by 18 months!

I look forward to Hooker calling for a concerted campaign to ensure that all African American boys receive MMR before 18 months, to prevent them from developing “late-MMR-associated autism.”

Underlining mine

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#194 of 469 Old 08-25-2014, 06:11 PM
 
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I'll also point out that one of the researchers they are accusing of covering up data that showed black males were more likely to get autism is....black herself.

Sounds legit.

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#195 of 469 Old 08-25-2014, 06:22 PM
 
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I'll also point out that one of the researchers they are accusing of covering up data that showed black males were more likely to get autism is....black herself.

Sounds legit.
So?

I think it is very possible the CDC would have (assuming it went down like this - I feel we are still in wait mode) covered up a issue in any demographic. White male. Latino females. Doesn't matter.

The bottom line for the CDC is that they want as many people as possible vaccinated. It would not surprise me if they hid/altered evidence that vaccination was problematic for a demographic, because it is contrary to their number one goal of "vaccinate everyone."

Now, I will say that my knowledge of American race issues is shakey. Maybe this is a race issue, but it does not have to be to be highly problematic.

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#196 of 469 Old 08-25-2014, 06:25 PM
 
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FYI:

The CDC says that about 14% of Americans are African American. Looking just at the USA, that is 7% of the population who is at higher risk for autism from early MMR assuming this is true.
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#197 of 469 Old 08-25-2014, 06:28 PM
 
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Are there any stats that separate autistic children by race?

I know the Somalians in MN are developing autism faster than the rest of the native population.
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So?

I think it is very possible the CDC would have (assuming it went down like this - I feel we are still in wait mode) covered up a issue in any demographic. White male. Latino females. Doesn't matter.

The bottom line for the CDC is that they want as many people as possible vaccinated. It would not surprise me if they hid/altered evidence that vaccination was problematic for a demographic, because it is contrary to their number one goal of "vaccinate everyone."

Now, I will say that my knowledge of American race issues is shakey. Maybe this is a race issue, but it does not have to be to be highly problematic.
With racial tensions being what they are in the US, it would be extraordinarily unlikely that a minority black researcher would deliberately hide evidence that minority black boys were more likely to get autism from the MMR.

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Why does the CDC have more credibility? They lied in their statement:

Quote:
CDC is committed to continuing to provide essential data on autism, search for factors that put children at risk for autism and look for possible causes.
If they were committed to providing essential data and were searching for risks and causes, they would do a retrospective study of the never vaccinated versus vaccinated.

So the BS continues and will continue as long as they are in the position of implementing and defending the vaccine program.
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#200 of 469 Old 08-25-2014, 06:46 PM
 
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With racial tensions being what they are in the US, it would be extraordinarily unlikely that a minority black researcher would deliberately hide evidence that minority black boys were more likely to get autism from the MMR.
Why?

Look, if you believe measles is deadly and it is better to have autism than the measles (and some people absolutely do believe this) then, yeah, you *might* be OK with under-playing something for the greater good.

Moreover, the vaccine researcher who is black is also an employee. Going against what the boss wants is never good for your career. I can see someone keeping quiet for personal/career reasons. Happens all the time.
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#201 of 469 Old 08-25-2014, 06:46 PM
 
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Are there any stats that separate autistic children by race?
That's another point that has been brought up. The autism rates for black and white children is the same in metropolitan Atlanta.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12503976

"Overall, the prevalence was comparable for black and white children (black, 3.4 per 1000 [95% CI, 3.0-3.7] and white, 3.4 per 1000 [95% CI, 3.2-3.7])."

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With racial tensions being what they are in the US, it would be extraordinarily unlikely that a minority black researcher would deliberately hide evidence that minority black boys were more likely to get autism from the MMR.
Greed is greed. Wanting job protection or a chance to climb up the corporate/government agency ladder is not only the domain of old white men.

Do you think that white people have never thrown other white people under the bus for profit? Do you think that males have never thrown other males under the bus for profit? Do you think women have never thrown other women or children under a bus for profit?
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#203 of 469 Old 08-25-2014, 06:51 PM
 
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Why?

Look, if you believe measles is deadly and it is better to have autism than the measles (and some people absolutely do believe this) then, yeah, you *might* be OK with under-playing something for the greater good.

Moreover, the vaccine researcher who is black is also an employee. Going against what the boss wants is never good for your career. I can see someone keeping quiet for personal/career reasons. Happens all the time.
Because, like I said, there is a lot of racial tension in the US and it would be extremely unlikely that a minority black researcher would deliberately hide this kind of evidence.

Further, even IF it was true (again, a HUGE if) that doesn't mean black children can't get the MMR. They could still get the first dose at 12 months which would protect 95% of them from measles.

So it wouldn't be a matter of either: A) Hiding the evidence or B) leaving all black children vulnerable to measles. A single MMR dose is still extremely effective and sufficient for the vast majority of the population.

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That's another point that has been brought up. The autism rates for black and white children is the same in metropolitan Atlanta.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12503976

"Overall, the prevalence was comparable for black and white children (black, 3.4 per 1000 [95% CI, 3.0-3.7] and white, 3.4 per 1000 [95% CI, 3.2-3.7])."
Which begs the question: is the risk of autism 3 times higher in non-black children who receiver MMR before 36 months, as opposed to after 36 months?
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#205 of 469 Old 08-25-2014, 06:57 PM
 
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I'm glad the CDC made a statement clarifying their viewpoint.

Tea - thanks for looking at the study in more depth. I skimmed it and it looked fairly simplistic - I wondered why the sizes of the cohorts and/or statistical errors were missing. I'd be surprised to hear its peer reviewed (please feel free to prove me wrong). There are open journals which go on pubmed so that's not guarantee.

If the main conclusion all this fuss is about is based on 8 children vaccinated after 36 months that's pretty shocking to me (or would be if anything the antivax side did to try to prove their viewpoint could shock me anymore).
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I'm glad the CDC made a statement clarifying their viewpoint.

Tea - thanks for looking at the study in more depth. I skimmed it and it looked fairly simplistic - I wondered why the sizes of the cohorts and/or statistical errors were missing. I'd be surprised to hear its peer reviewed (please feel free to prove me wrong). There are open journals which go on pubmed so that's not guarantee.

If the main conclusion all this fuss is about is based on 8 children vaccinated after 36 months that's pretty shocking to me (or would be if anything the antivax side did to try to prove their viewpoint could shock me anymore).
It was not peer reviewed and was published in an open sourced journal with no impact factor.

This post goes into it a bit more, if you're interested

http://thepoxesblog.wordpress.com/20...-or-something/

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Which begs the question: is the risk of autism 3 times higher in non-black children who receiver MMR before 36 months, as opposed to after 36 months?
As an aside, rates in Latinos also need to be looked at.

I was doing a bit of a google search for ASD rates among African Americans, and while I did not find anything shocking in absolute rates (although they are diagnosed about 18 months later than white children ) I did find this:

"Reports of regressive autism – in which young children lose early language and social skills – are twice as common for African American children as for white children, according to new research. The same study found reports of regression 50 percent higher for Hispanic children than for whites."

http://www.autismspeaks.org/science/...rican-children


Anecdotally, MMR is linked to regression.

It turns out that African American and Latinos are more likely to regress into auitism or have significant regressive episodes. it does make one wonder if MMR is at extra play with this demographic. (and if it isn't MMR - then what other theories do we have?)
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#208 of 469 Old 08-25-2014, 07:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

If the main conclusion all this fuss is about is based on 8 children vaccinated after 36 months that's pretty shocking to me (or would be if anything the antivax side did to try to prove their viewpoint could shock me anymore).
Meh.

It is not about Hooker's take on the study. It is about a possible whistle-blower and whether or not the CDC acted appropriately after the original study. If a study shows a significant reaction, even if the study is small, it should be followed up on. If not, then what is the point to the study?

There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#209 of 469 Old 08-25-2014, 07:06 PM
 
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prosciencemum wrote:
Quote:
If the main conclusion all this fuss is about is based on 8 children vaccinated after 36 months that's pretty shocking to me (or would be if anything the antivax side did to try to prove their viewpoint could shock me anymore).
Um. I've seen some incredibly tiny studies touted as proving amazing things about the safety and efficacy of vaccines. Looks to me like the usual double standard, frankly.
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#210 of 469 Old 08-25-2014, 07:28 PM
 
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RE: race and research.

There were black doctors and nurses who worked in the Tuskagee Syphllis Project. It was a job. That is one reason why the patients trusted them.

There are plenty of Latinos who work the healthcare field, translating and in public health. I live in a Latino community, and there are plenty of families with autistic children who "know" the vaccines caused their child's regression. The communities in Mexico and Central America are heavily vaccinated. I do not know if there is autism in Mexico or Central America.
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"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."
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