CDC whistleblower - CDC knew MMR autism risk in African American boys 4 times higher - Page 8 - Mothering Forums

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Old 08-25-2014, 09:09 PM
 
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Not sure if the link to Brian Hooker's paper was put up yet (and too lazy to go back through all the posts )

http://www.translationalneurodegener...-9158-3-16.pdf

Quote:
Results: When comparing cases and controls receiving their first MMR vaccine before and after 36 months of age, there was a statistically significant increase in autism cases specifically among African American males who received the first MMR prior to 36 months of age. Relative risks for males in general and African American males were 1.69 (p=0.0138) and 3.36 (p=0.0019), respectively. Additionally, African American males showed an odds ratio of 1.73 (p=0.0200) for autism cases in children receiving their first MMR vaccine prior to 24 months of age versus 24 months of age and thereafter.
Quote:
Although a statistically significant relationship between first MMR age and autism incidence was seen in the general (all races) population within the earlier Destefano et al. [14] study, the coauthors interpreted this result as an artifact of “healthcare seeking behavior” citing that autistic children would receive their vaccines earlier in order to enroll in State of Georgia early intervention programs. However, it is highly unlikely that this type of behavior would be seen exclusively in African American males and thus, alternative hypotheses must be explored, including the possibility that the MMR vaccine may be causally linked to autism in African American males.

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Old 08-25-2014, 09:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
And this is exactly why you can't just take Wakefield's word for things. He made it sound like only black children without birth certificates were excluded (or at the very least disproportionally excluded), which we don't know is the case. Children from all races were excluded because they didn't have a birth certificate.
Why weren't they excluded from the beginning? Isn't it fishy that they were excluded once all the data were in?
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Old 08-25-2014, 09:46 PM
 
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In 2005 Cochrane had reviewed the DeStefano et al 2004 paper and had this to say (taken from AOA website. I'm getting kicked off the computer so I don't have the time to find the original link)

Quote:
WHAT THE COCHRANE REPORT SAID:

■ Even though the authors concluded there was “no significant difference” between cases and controls in the age at first vaccination up to 18 months and 24 months, more cases received MMR before 36 months, making the two group different in an important sense.

■ This conclusion “showed bias in the enrollment of cases which may not be representative of the rest of the autistic population of the city of Atlanta, USA where the study was set.”

■ This study offered “inadequate explanations” for missing data.

■ This study had the highest rate of excluded cases – more than one-third of the total – among all studies reviewed by Cochrane.

■ Reporting on vaccine coverage and the “structure of comparisons” in this study were unclear, “raising the possibility of bias.”

■ This study suffered from a “moderate” risk of bias.

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Old 08-26-2014, 05:03 AM
 
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Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post
FYI:

The CDC says that about 14% of Americans are African American. Looking just at the USA, that is 7% of the population who is at higher risk for autism from early MMR assuming this is true.
That math that I can see adding up!



Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
Because, like I said, there is a lot of racial tension in the US and it would be extremely unlikely that a minority black researcher would deliberately hide this kind of evidence. You do mean go against their boss and somehow bring it to light in spite of following protocols with the CDC?

Further, even IF it was true (again, a HUGE if) that doesn't mean black children can't get the MMR. They could still get the first dose at 12 months which would protect 95% of them from measles.

So it wouldn't be a matter of either: A) Hiding the evidence or B) leaving all black children vulnerable to measles. A single MMR dose is still extremely effective and sufficient for the vast majority of the population.
So the CDC is telling the truth here in this incidence(no cover up) but they are LYING when they say there is an increase in autism rates? I just love this logic!!

 

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Old 08-26-2014, 05:12 AM
 
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Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post
I'm glad the CDC made a statement clarifying their viewpoint.
What exactly did they "clarify"?

The data CDC collected for this study continue to be available for analysis by others. CDC welcomes analysis by others (with open arms no doubt!) that can be submitted for peer-review and publication. For more information on how to access this public-use dataset please go to the this webpage.



However, our 2014 measles count is the highest number since measles was declared eliminated in 2000. We do not want to lose any opportunity to protect all of our children when we have the means to do so

Go out and get your vaccine, move on people nothing here to see!

 

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Old 08-26-2014, 08:17 AM
 
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Let's not forget Dr. William Thompson (although by not addressing the whistleblower aspect of this case I'm guessing the CDC would like you to) of the CDC (or formerly of the CDC) and coauthor of that study.

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Old 08-26-2014, 08:48 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Some more information from Safe Minds which puts the letter Thompson wrote to Julie Gerberding into some perspective.

http://campaign.r20.constantcontact....7-d4ae5292bb50

Quote:
In the letter, Dr. Thompson refers to several news articles that appeared in the media during that time regarding CDC vaccine safety research and letters that Congressman Dave Weldon, M.D. sent to Dr. Gerberding regarding concerns related to the integrity of the scientists in the CDC's National Immunization Program (NIP).
SafeMinds worked closely with Dr. Weldon for several years during his time in Congress. We shared with his staff FOIA documents SafeMinds received from the CDC and FDA regarding issues surrounding vaccine safety and the use of thimerosal in infant vaccines. These documents include emails from NIP employees, officials at CDC, officials from FDA, representatives from the American Academy of Pediatrics, and the vaccine industry, as well as the original transcripts of the Simpsonwood meeting.

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Old 08-26-2014, 09:15 AM - Thread Starter
 
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According to this article, Dr Thompson has "lawyered up" and is seeking official whistleblower status, so that he can talk freely.

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/9122...ilent/?photo=1

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Old 08-26-2014, 09:20 AM
 
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prosciencemum wrote:
Quote:
If the main conclusion all this fuss is about is based on 8 children vaccinated after 36 months that's pretty shocking to me (or would be if anything the antivax side did to try to prove their viewpoint could shock me anymore).
Deborah wrote:
Quote:
Um. I've seen some incredibly tiny studies touted as proving amazing things about the safety and efficacy of vaccines. Looks to me like the usual double standard, frankly.
There's been some additions to the ireportCNN article.
Quote:
The CDC also states that “Additional studies and a more recent rigorous review by the Institute of Medicine have found that MMR vaccine does not increase the risk of autism”. The Studies that the CDC uses to confirm no link between the MMR and autism are 4 that they list on their website at (http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Vaccines/MMR/MMR.html ). A quick look at these 4 studies raises several questions.

One is
Quote:
an exploratory study of very small sample sizes, 28 children total
Another one
Quote:
used a small control sample size of only 31 children
Are you shocked prosciencemum?

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Old 08-26-2014, 09:52 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Marcella Piper Terry discusses the study in this interview.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25ZWeGqpGhc

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Old 08-26-2014, 10:06 AM
 
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Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
I'll also point out that one of the researchers they are accusing of covering up data that showed black males were more likely to get autism is....black herself.

Sounds legit.

I still cannot get over this one. Yes, it was addressed by others quite well, but I wanted to chime in and say I think this is just so wrong.

Sorry....back to the regular discussion! I'm listening to Marcella's interview right now, and it's a good one.

 
 
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Old 08-26-2014, 10:13 AM
 
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I read the SBM article from start to finnish on Gorski's take on the CDC whistle-blower incident. I wanted to know what the "other side" had to say….and my analysis? Not much.

He spends a lot of time babbling about how much he dislikes Hooker, Wakefield and Crosby. This probably accounts for 2/3 the word count. Very little time is spent on Thompson. They don't hate him yet (give it time).

He spends some time babbling about how the video is over-the-top…and as much as it pains me to say it, I agree with him. A hyperbolic video talking about syphilis, Tuskegee and Hitler, no less, is not going to win over anyone. Consider your audience, folks. The message (which is important!) could have gotten lost in the hyperbole.

Gorski also uses several hundred keys strokes saying how white people should not be up in arms about this. He either thinks white non-vaxxers only care about themselves (that's right -I don't care if black children develop autism (sarcasm) ) or he is saying we shouldn't care - because it is only black male children in play here. It is not clear, so take your vile pick: he is calling non-vaxxers racist with no evidence or being racist himself.

"This study says nothing whatsoever about, for instance, Jenny McCarthy and her son’s autism, other than that there is no link between MMR and autism for children like him. Remember, the most vocal antivaccinationists jumping all over this are not African-American but instead tend to be UMC or even highly affluent Caucasians. There’s absolutely nothing in even Hooker’s ham-fisted “reanalysis” of this data to tell them that the MMR vaccine caused their children’s autism."

(as an aside, I get a little tired of people assuming everyone who is non-vax has vaccine injured children. I do not. While I have been quite public with fact I have 2 nephews with severe autism, I have never claimed vaccines caused the autism.)

Gorski of SBM does have some criticisms of the study, but concludes the criticism with this:

"So is Hooker’s result valid? Was there really a 3.4-fold increased risk for autism in African-American males who received MMR vaccination before the age of 36 months in this dataset? Who knows? Probably not, though. "

Bolding mine. He doesn't know. In a post that might be TL DR this is an important point.

Gorski is inclined to think that this whole think is just an out of context, cherry-picking by Wakefield/Hooker - but he does not really know. He states this, which I actually agree with:

"If Dr. Thompson did say what he is represented as having said on the Wakefield video (I don’t trust Wakefield for a moment to have edited the tape of Thompson’s conversations with Hooker honestly), then Thompson has done enormous damage. This is the sort of thing that antivaccine activists like Hooker have been waiting for for years: A “whistleblower” CDC official of senior rank who gives them a seemingly plausible story of malfeasance and cover-up to trumpet to the world. This is not going away. It will become part of antivaccine lore, to be repeated over and over basically forever as evidence that the “CDC knew.” If he didn’t, he really needs to find a way to get out in front of this and give his side of the story now. The longer this festers, the less effective his response will be."

Over-all I did not run screaming from this SBM piece - something I often do as the tone of SBM is just so vile and hateful.

My sense? The skeptics have nothing - as is evidence by this rather weak, not really to the point, article. Like the rest of us, they are waiting to see what happens, and any criticism of Hookers papers (and let's face it: criticizing papers is not that hard and something skeptics do all the time: nothing new here) is secondary to to the issue of what happened

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Old 08-26-2014, 10:18 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Mirzam View Post
Some more information from Safe Minds which puts the letter Thompson wrote to Julie Gerberding into some perspective.

http://campaign.r20.constantcontact....7-d4ae5292bb50
I'm still not seeing what's controversial, much less scandalous, about that letter.

If anyone wants to enlighten me, it would be appreciated.
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Old 08-26-2014, 10:21 AM
 
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@Kathy

Of course we don't know yet. Hooker hasn't even shown or released all of the data from his "analysis" yet.

That doesn't mean that there aren't glaring problems even with what he has released so far, problems that I have yet to see a non vaxxer respond to.

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Old 08-26-2014, 10:24 AM
 
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Kathy, Orac is not exactly famous for his ability to communicate complex ideas with concision. He needs an editor. lol.
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Old 08-26-2014, 10:26 AM
 
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I'm still not seeing what's controversial, much less scandalous, about that letter.

If anyone wants to enlighten me, it would be appreciated.
There isn't anything.

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/20...ntinues-apace/

The second half of the post goes through the letter.

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Old 08-26-2014, 10:34 AM
 
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I'll point out again that surveillance has found autism rates to either be the same or significantly lower in black vs white children. Not just in Atlanta, either. If the claims made in the "analysis" were true, we should be seeing more blacks with autism than whites.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6103a1.htm

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Old 08-26-2014, 10:41 AM
 
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I'm still not seeing what's controversial, much less scandalous, about that letter.

If anyone wants to enlighten me, it would be appreciated.
The letter opens with this:

"We’ve not met yet to discuss these matters, but I’m sure you’re aware of the Institute of Medicine Meeting regarding vaccines and autism that will take place on February 9th. I will be presenting the summary of our results from the Metropolitan Atlanta Autism Case-Control Study and I will have to present several problematic results relating to statistical associations between the receipt of MMR vaccine and autism."

It was not specific, nor damning (due to its lack of specificity) but it is an admission that Thompson saw "several problematic results relating to statistical associations between the receipt of MMR vaccine and autism."

At a minimum, it shows us that Thompson's concerns are not new.

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Old 08-26-2014, 10:49 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post
The letter opens with this:

"We’ve not met yet to discuss these matters, but I’m sure you’re aware of the Institute of Medicine Meeting regarding vaccines and autism that will take place on February 9th. I will be presenting the summary of our results from the Metropolitan Atlanta Autism Case-Control Study and I will have to present several problematic results relating to statistical associations between the receipt of MMR vaccine and autism."

It was not specific, nor damning (due to its lack of specificity) but it is an admission that Thompson saw "several problematic results relating to statistical associations between the receipt of MMR vaccine and autism."

At a minimum, it shows us that Thompson's concerns are not new.
Which was the 340% increase in autism risk in African American boys, which they subsequently obscured by removing all children that did not have a valid Georgia birth certificate.

According to Mike Adams, Thompson is in hiding in fear of his life and not to expect him to go public anytime soon. He also talks about the letter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNN4...r_embedded#t=6

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Old 08-26-2014, 10:55 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Re: GA birth certificates:

Quote:
More CDC lies exposed. "I called the Georgia office of vital records and confirmed that they do not include, nor do they even collect, information like maternal education, and gestation age. I was told that if researchers wanted that information they would have to go to the hospital where the child was born." ~Ginger Taylor

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Old 08-26-2014, 10:56 AM
 
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Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post
The letter opens with this:

"We’ve not met yet to discuss these matters, but I’m sure you’re aware of the Institute of Medicine Meeting regarding vaccines and autism that will take place on February 9th. I will be presenting the summary of our results from the Metropolitan Atlanta Autism Case-Control Study and I will have to present several problematic results relating to statistical associations between the receipt of MMR vaccine and autism."

It was not specific, nor damning (due to its lack of specificity) but it is an admission that Thompson saw "several problematic results relating to statistical associations between the receipt of MMR vaccine and autism."

At a minimum, it shows us that Thompson's concerns are not new.
Thank you!
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Old 08-26-2014, 11:03 AM
 
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I'll point out again that surveillance has found autism rates to either be the same or significantly lower in black vs white children. Not just in Atlanta, either. If the claims made in the "analysis" were true, we should be seeing more blacks with autism than whites.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6103a1.htm


This study did not look at the overall rate of autism in the community in different demogrpahics. It just looked at the rate of autism given when a person had MMR.

"The author embarked on the present study to evaluate whether a relationship exists between child age when the first MMR vaccine was administered among cases diagnosed with autism and controls born between 1986 through 1993 among school children in metropolitan Atlanta" (Hooker, 2014)


You can have a 3.4 fold increase in autism in those vaccinated early as compared to those vaccinated later in a specific population while still having lowish numbers.

Example, using made up numbers to prove a point:

Male white children

2% have ASD if vaccinted early, if vaccinated on time, or if vaccinated late.

male, African American children:
1% if vaccinated early
0.8 % if vaccinated on time
0.25% if vaccinated late.

My chances of having a child on ASD specturm if I were black (and assuming no diagnostic issues) might be lower overall than a white person, but it is still safer from an ASD perspective (and assuming Hooker is right) to vaccinate late versus early.

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Old 08-26-2014, 12:48 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Another email from William Thompson released. I apologize to those that object to Natural News, but at this point it is the only media outlet that is really working on this story.

http://www.naturalnews.com/images/CD...-Watermark.jpg

http://www.naturalnews.com/046614_CD...stigation.html

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Old 08-26-2014, 01:00 PM
 
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Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post
The letter opens with this:

"We’ve not met yet to discuss these matters, but I’m sure you’re aware of the Institute of Medicine Meeting regarding vaccines and autism that will take place on February 9th. I will be presenting the summary of our results from the Metropolitan Atlanta Autism Case-Control Study and I will have to present several problematic results relating to statistical associations between the receipt of MMR vaccine and autism."

It was not specific, nor damning (due to its lack of specificity) but it is an admission that Thompson saw "several problematic results relating to statistical associations between the receipt of MMR vaccine and autism."

At a minimum, it shows us that Thompson's concerns are not new.
"Problematic" because of the audience he was going to be presenting the results to, which he described as "hostile" parents that have been told not to trust the CDC who believe the MMR caused their children's autism. From the letter :

"The CDC needs your leadership here because I may very well be presenting data before a hostile crowd of parents with autistic children who have been told not to trust the CDC. I believe it is your responsibility and duty to respond in writing to Representative Weldon’s letters before the Institute of Medicine meeting and make those letters public. Otherwise, you give the appearance of agreeing with what he has been suggested in those correspondences and you’re putting one of your own scientists in harms way. This is not the time for our leadership to act politically. It is a time for our leadership to stand by their scientists and do the right thing. "

The anti vax spin on this doesn't make sense in that context. Why would he express concern over presenting "problematic" data about the MMR to that audience?

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Old 08-26-2014, 01:07 PM
 
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An interesting point has been brought up.

Hooker lives in California and was presumably there when the alleged phone calls took place. Did Thompson know he was being recorded? If not, Hooker could be in some legal trouble. California is a "two party consent" law state, meaning that all parties must give permission to the recording.

It's also very possible that Thompson and the other researchers are gearing up for a lawsuit, as Hooker and Wakefield have basically dragged their names through the mud and accused them of despicable things.

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Old 08-26-2014, 01:09 PM
 
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Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
"Problematic" because of the audience he was going to be presenting the results to, which he described as "hostile" parents that have been told not to trust the CDC who believe the MMR caused their children's autism. From the letter :

"The CDC needs your leadership here because I may very well be presenting data before a hostile crowd of parents with autistic children who have been told not to trust the CDC. I believe it is your responsibility and duty to respond in writing to Representative Weldon’s letters before the Institute of Medicine meeting and make those letters public. Otherwise, you give the appearance of agreeing with what he has been suggested in those correspondences and you’re putting one of your own scientists in harms way. This is not the time for our leadership to act politically. It is a time for our leadership to stand by their scientists and do the right thing. "
It could have been "problematic" because they already perceived the parents to be hostile. Who wants to be the bearer of more bad news to a crowd like that?

But this letter needs to be explained by Thompson himself and put into context. In the meantime I don't see it as evidence of anything.

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Old 08-26-2014, 01:14 PM
 
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Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
An interesting point has been brought up.

Hooker lives in California and was presumably there when the alleged phone calls took place. Did Thompson know he was being recorded? If not, Hooker could be in some legal trouble. California is a "two party consent" law state, meaning that all parties must give permission to the recording.

It's also very possible that Thompson and the other researchers are gearing up for a lawsuit, as Hooker and Wakefield have basically dragged their names through the mud and accused them of despicable things.
Don't get excited Teacozy, I accidentally liked your post when I meant to hit quote.

This is just plain grasping at straws, or building straw men or poisoning the well which ever logical fallacy applies.

So in absence of any statement from Thompson, the vaccine defenders are going to go with Hooker may have illegally taped a call? Look over here not over there. Wow.

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Old 08-26-2014, 01:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by samaxtics View Post
Don't get excited Teacozy, I accidentally liked your post when I meant to hit quote.

This is just plain grasping at straws, or building straw men or poisoning the well which ever logical fallacy applies.

So in absence of any statement from Thompson, the vaccine defenders are going to go with Hooker may have illegally taped a call? Look over here not over there. Wow.
What?

I said it was something interesting brought up on another site. I didn't make any conclusions based off of it. So I have no idea what you're even ranting about.

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Old 08-26-2014, 01:35 PM
 
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"
The anti vax spin on this doesn't make sense in that context. Why would he express concern over presenting "problematic" data about the MMR to that audience?
What anti-vax spin, tea?

This is my assessment of the letter, I did not read it on some other site, and I do not identify as anti-vax.

I will repost the intro to the letter, bolding mine.

"I will be presenting the summary of our results from the Metropolitan Atlanta Autism Case-Control Study and I will have to present several problematic results relating to statistical associations between the receipt of MMR vaccine and autism."

I am going to take his words at face value - he was concerned about presenting several problematic results relating to statistical associations between the receipt of MMR vaccine and autism."

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Old 08-26-2014, 01:35 PM
 
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Originally Posted by samaxtics View Post
It could have been "problematic" because they already perceived the parents to be hostile. Who wants to be the bearer of more bad news to a crowd like that?

But this letter needs to be explained by Thompson himself and put into context. In the meantime I don't see it as evidence of anything.
Talk about grasping at straws.

A scientist from the CDC vindicating these parents and "coming out" publicly with information that the MMR might potentially cause autism is a scenario that many non vax parents have been dreaming about.

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