Time to Retract Thompson's Study? - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 85 Old 09-03-2014, 06:46 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Time to Retract Thompson's Study?

I was getting buried in the old thread, so I hope a spin-off is OK.

William W. Thompson of the CDC confessed the following: http://www.morganverkamp.com/august-...ne-and-autism/

Quote:
I regret that my coauthors and I omitted statistically significant information in our 2004 article published in the journal Pediatrics. The omitted data suggested that African American males who received the MMR vaccine before age 36 months were at increased risk for autism. Decisions were made regarding which findings to report after the data were collected, and I believe that the final study protocol was not followed.
In light of his confession, I have some questions. I am hoping to hear some answers from our regular, (and not-so-regular) pro-vaxxers. Anyone can jump in, though. These are questions that nobody, neither here nor in the blogosphere, seems to be addressing.

1. In light of Thompson's confession, should the editorial board of the journal, Pediatrics, retract this study?

2. In the interests of science, should the study be conducted again, rewritten, and republished with the missing data included?

3. If so, what kind of oversight and accountabilty should be part of this process to ensure an ethical research process this time?

“It is simply no longer possible to believe much of the clinical research that is published, or to rely on the judgment of trusted physicians or authoritative medical guidelines.” - Marcia Angell, M.D., former NEJM Editor
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#2 of 85 Old 09-03-2014, 06:59 PM
 
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A question I have:

I've seen assumptions that the study indicated that the children who were not African American were at no increased risk for autism, but since the numbers are now questionable, how can that assumption be made?
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#3 of 85 Old 09-04-2014, 06:14 AM
 
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I would like to see it retracted - or at least a commission of sorts looking into it. Is that happenning? Noooooo…… I have seen virtually no response from the CDC or mainstream media. Bury, bury, bury.

What I would really like to see is follow -up studies on timing of MMR and incidence of autism in different subgroups. Sadly, though, I probably wouldn't trust them anyways. It is kind of sucky not being able to trust medial and scientific advisers to be honourable and transparent.

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#4 of 85 Old 09-04-2014, 06:56 AM
 
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At this point I wouldn't trust the CDC to report the incidence of acne accurately.
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#5 of 85 Old 09-04-2014, 08:09 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turquesa View Post
I am hoping to hear some answers from our regular, (and not-so-regular) pro-vaxxers. Anyone can jump in, though. These are questions that nobody, neither here nor in the blogosphere, seems to be addressing.

1. In light of Thompson's confession, should the editorial board of the journal, Pediatrics, retract this study?

2. In the interests of science, should the study be conducted again, rewritten, and republished with the missing data included?

3. If so, what kind of oversight and accountabilty should be part of this process to ensure an ethical research process this time?
I don't like holding my breath - makes one so blue..... so............

I would add a 4th - How much longer will the pundits push this???
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#6 of 85 Old 09-04-2014, 08:57 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Deborah View Post
A question I have:

I've seen assumptions that the study indicated that the children who were not African American were at no increased risk for autism, but since the numbers are now questionable, how can that assumption be made?
I'm wondering if that's just spin to cover up the fact that ALL the vaccinated children were at increased risk for autism....
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#7 of 85 Old 09-04-2014, 09:03 AM
 
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I'm wondering if that's just spin to cover up the fact that ALL the vaccinated children were at increased risk for autism....
It probably is spin.

But it is being waved around as a certainty by certain bloggers.
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#8 of 85 Old 09-04-2014, 10:38 AM
 
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I'm wondering if that's just spin to cover up the fact that ALL the vaccinated children were at increased risk for autism....
I think it is. Just watch those #hearthiswell videos and hear how many of those caucasian parents specifically mention MMR.
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#9 of 85 Old 09-04-2014, 01:18 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I would like to see it retracted - or at least a commission of sorts looking into it. Is that happenning? Noooooo……
Isn't this issue pretty basic? If someone admits to producing fraudulant data, you withdraw the data and re-examine the data. At least if you're pro-science . . . (Cough, cough, hack!)

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#10 of 85 Old 09-04-2014, 07:27 PM
 
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Turquesa, do I detect a bit of sarcasm? I'm shocked...
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#11 of 85 Old 09-05-2014, 08:40 AM
 
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Didn't it take Hooker years of formally requesting the data before it was finally released (FOIA) ? Why do people say it's been available since 2004? Or am I getting this mixed up with something else?

Turquesa, you're right about that. My impression is that they are not interested in looking into this any further, and are trying to preserve the vaccine program however they can. That does not seem like science to me, but more like dogma preservation. Our understanding of science is always changing and evolving, and we should be striving for improvement. Instead, we have this mess.

 
 
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#12 of 85 Old 10-02-2014, 05:13 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Really? No pro-vaccine takers? If somebody admitted that they withheld data from a study that would have provided the opposite conclusions, wouldn't a retraction be in order? The silence on this is absolutely deafening!

“It is simply no longer possible to believe much of the clinical research that is published, or to rely on the judgment of trusted physicians or authoritative medical guidelines.” - Marcia Angell, M.D., former NEJM Editor
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#13 of 85 Old 10-03-2014, 12:59 PM
 
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Kinda OT, but I am absolutely SHOCKED there hasn't been at least a little more of a main stream reaction to this mess. Where are the Black community leaders? What does President Obama have to say about it?! If this became a race issue there would be absolutely no containing it.
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#14 of 85 Old 10-03-2014, 01:45 PM
 
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Yes, one of my earliest posts on this subject was "Where are Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, or Reverend Wright? - (who did condemn vaccines as being the cause of AIDS in one of his sermons.)

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Yes, one of my earliest posts on this subject was "Where are Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, or Reverend Wright? - (who did condemn vaccines as being the cause of AIDS in one of his sermons.)
Those guys watch CNN... they dont know.
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#16 of 85 Old 10-03-2014, 02:11 PM
 
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One of the very first posts on the internet about the whistleblower case was on the CNN website, but it was taken down shortly after. I do believe it is mentioned on one of the threads on these forums.

“Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth, for being correct, for being you. NEVER apologize for being correct, or for being years ahead of your time. If you are right and you know it, speak your mind. Even if you are a minority of one, the Truth is still the Truth.”

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Don't expect anything out of Obama, Jesse, or Al. Remember Obama's promise to label GMOs? Lies. We have more GMOs than ever before, and not a peep from him about the labeling campaign.

Al and Jesse are just there to parade as leaders. Don't believe them either. They were bought off long ago. If they were sincere, they would be having a fit over this MMR issue, pressing for a deeper investigation.
For the record, I don't trust the white leaders either. They're all a bunch of crooked crooks, not worthy of my trust.

 
 
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#18 of 85 Old 10-17-2014, 08:10 AM
 
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AAP has already made a statement about this. Not going to happen. They, too, stand by the study and its results.

"The journal takes allegations of the use of fraudulent data seriously. The journal investigated the allegations in accordance with the Committee on Publication Ethics guidelines and has decided that a retraction is not warranted."


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#19 of 85 Old 10-17-2014, 08:50 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Surprise surprise.

“It is simply no longer possible to believe much of the clinical research that is published, or to rely on the judgment of trusted physicians or authoritative medical guidelines.” - Marcia Angell, M.D., former NEJM Editor
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Surprise surprise.

Multiple experts and statisticians, the CDC, and the AAP have all looked at the data and have not found any evidence to back up Hooker's "reanalysis" or claims.

So nope, I'm not surprised that they aren't retracting the study either. There is no need to do so.

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Multiple experts and statisticians, the CDC, and the AAP have all looked at the data and have not found any evidence to back up Hooker's "reanalysis" or claims.

So nope, I'm not surprised that they aren't retracting the study either. There is no need to do so.
They need to be concentration on what Thompson said, not Hookers re-analysis.

So…let's recap a bit. The CDC stands accused, by one of its own, of wrong-doing. It has looked at the issue (according to you) and exonerated itself of wrong doing.

When a organsiation is accused of wrong doing it is good form to have an impartial 3rd party sort things out…not just take the word of the accused or accuser for it. Fail all round.

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#22 of 85 Old 10-17-2014, 09:33 AM
 
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They need to be concentration on what Thompson said, not Hookers re-analysis.

So…let's recap a bit. The CDC stands accused, by one of its own, of wrong-doing. It has looked at the issue (according to you) and exonerated itself of wrong doing.

When a organsiation is accused of wrong doing it is good form to have an impartial 3rd party sort things out…not just take the word of the accused or accuser for it. Fail all round.
CDC statement to ABC says, in part :

"As this topic was so sensitive and complex, the CDC study published in Pediatrics in February 2004 underwent clearance at CDC, the usual process of internal review for scientific accuracy that all CDC papers undergo. In addition, before submission to the journal, the manuscript was reviewed by five experts outside of CDC and an independent CDC statistician (see acknowledgements section of the paper for specific names). Finally, all reputable journals undergo peer-review of all submitted papers before final publication."

Remember, Hooker said Thompson led him to this data for his reanalysis. Except that data doesn't show what Hooker (and presumably/allegedly Thompson) said or thinks it does.

Again, the data has been reviewed and analyzed by many experts not affiliated with the CDC in any way. There is no cover up.

Hooker had to literally change the study design to get it to show what he wanted it to.

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So the CDC AND the AAP stand by a faulty/fraudulent study that continues to give support/funding to drug manufacturers to vaccinate children early, often and then again and again despite results of said study?

Peer review? By whom? Fellows? Other drug manufacturers that have a stake in the generic version of vaccinations that are permitted after a patent expires? I've been involved in peer review work before. Unfortunately peer often equals "co-benefactor".

I can't say I expected any different reaction.

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#24 of 85 Old 10-17-2014, 09:55 AM
 
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Let's see who is in charge of ABC medical reporting.

Dr Richard Besser is ABC News' Chief Health and Medical Editor.

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Dr. Besser came to ABC News in 2009 from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), where he served as Acting Director for the CDC from January to June 2009, during which time he led the CDC's response to the H1N1 influenza pandemic. He also served as director of the Coordinating Office for Terrorism Preparedness and Emergency Response. In that role, he was responsible for all of the CDC's public health emergency preparedness and emergency response activities.


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#26 of 85 Old 10-17-2014, 01:59 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Well, shoot. I was trying to insert that famous NVIC image of three government agencies--plus two little boys next to a broken lamp--simultaneously declaring: "We have investigated ourselves and found no evidence of wrong-doing."

“It is simply no longer possible to believe much of the clinical research that is published, or to rely on the judgment of trusted physicians or authoritative medical guidelines.” - Marcia Angell, M.D., former NEJM Editor
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#27 of 85 Old 10-17-2014, 04:23 PM
 
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Peer reviewers are selected by the editors based on their expertise in the topic of the manuscript; generally at least 2 reviews are required before a decision is rendered. Authors may suggest appropriate reviewers and may also suggest reviewers who should not review the manuscript.
my bold

http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...idelines-1.pdf

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Peer reviewers are asked to assess each manuscript for originality; for interest to scientists, practitioners and policy makers; for quality of the analysis; and for quality of the presentation, and are asked to assess the priority of the paper for publication.
Most of that seems to be aesthetics. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the peer reviewers are not looking at the raw data just the study as presented.

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#28 of 85 Old 10-20-2014, 09:41 AM
 
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People can cry conspiracy all they want, but numbers are numbers.

If someone wants to prove the CDC, AAP, professional statisticians, and doctors wrong then go for it. The data has been and is still there for people to use and analyze.

The only attempt thus far has been an epic failure.

Let's just say I won't hold my breath.

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People can cry conspiracy all they want, but numbers are numbers.

If someone wants to prove the CDC, AAP, professional statisticians, and doctors wrong then go for it. The data has been and is still there for people to use and analyze.

The only attempt thus far has been an epic failure.

Let's just say I won't hold my breath.
These 2 recent articles deserve their own threads, but they address teacozy's POV so perfectly, I'll post them here.

http://business.financialpost.com/20...ical-research/
"How could so many for so long ignore the evidence that was so obvious and so easy to verify? An answer lies in the willful blindness of the vested interests that dominate the medical field."

The answer:
Money aside, personal egos and professional reputations were at stake. And cementing these powerful incentives together to form a near-impenetrable groupthink were government agencies that amplified the conventional wisdom and increasingly influenced what research should and shouldn’t be done, what papers should and shouldn’t be published, what drugs should and shouldn’t be licensed. In this medical-industrial-governmental complex, there was and is little appetite for out-of-the-box thinkers who challenge the status quo; there was and is an insatiable need to squelch dissent."


http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com...one-share&_r=0
"Statisticians amalgamate many studies through a technique called meta-analysis. The first step of the process, deciding which data to include, colors the findings. On occasion, the design of a meta-analysis stacks the deck for or against a treatment. "
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#30 of 85 Old 10-20-2014, 05:23 PM
 
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I have noticed that studies that are critical of vaccines get the fine-tooth-comb treatment, while studies that are supportive of vaccines are swallowed hook-line and sinker.

Consider the feeble response to the Fombonne study, at best a very sloppy study and at worst, outright fraud.

Oh well.
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Most users ever online was 449,755, 06-25-2014 at 12:21 PM.