Citations, Please? - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 28 Old 01-09-2015, 09:44 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Citations, Please?

Could somebody please provide some scientific data to support the following statements?

"The single best way to protect against the flu is to get vaccinated each year." (Emphasis my own).

"People who do get influenza after receiving the vaccine often have a milder case than those who did not get vaccinated."

"Anti-vaxxers cause mutations in the pertussis bacteria." (No link. Sorry. I just continally see this in comment threads).

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#2 of 28 Old 01-09-2015, 09:48 AM
 
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I've seen sciency claims that unvaccinated people lead to mutations in the polio virus, but never in relation to pertussis.
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#3 of 28 Old 01-09-2015, 10:56 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deborah View Post
I've seen sciency claims that unvaccinated people lead to mutations in the polio virus, but never in relation to pertussis.
Any citations for THIS claim?

The pertussis claim I've frequently seen in social media, which I've all but dropped out of . . . .
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#4 of 28 Old 01-09-2015, 12:46 PM
 
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Well, I went digging through pubmed and found several citations which I was going to share and then accidentally closed the window.

I'll sum it up. There is a bit of discussion of the evolution of the bacteria and that the vaccines may have caused evolutionary changes but they aren't sure. No discussion anywhere of any role for vaccine refusers or any effect such behavior could have on the bacteria.

No science I could find to support this claim.
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#5 of 28 Old 01-09-2015, 07:03 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks for checking.

Regarding the second claim in my OP about reduced symptom severity among people who got flu shots, the most that I could dig up is that it's a weak and largely unexplored hypothesis. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4013802/

I feel frustrated. I'm not speaking specifically of MDC right now, but it's been really hard to get science from people who call themselves pro-science.
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#6 of 28 Old 01-09-2015, 07:11 PM
 
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In my experience, they either refuse to cite science, or else they offer up a pile of references without much info and expect you to dig through it and figure out if it applies or not.
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#7 of 28 Old 01-21-2015, 08:05 AM - Thread Starter
 
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There it is. That claim again. (See bolded).

Quote:
H3N2 is not one of the strains included in this year’s flu vaccine, but health experts say it’s still worth getting the shot because, if you get the flu, it’s likely to be a milder case.
http://www.nhregister.com/health/201...in-connecticut

Anyone wanna take another stab at producing some science for me? Pretty please?
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#8 of 28 Old 01-21-2015, 08:38 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Turquesa View Post
There it is. That claim again. (See bolded).



http://www.nhregister.com/health/201...in-connecticut

Anyone wanna take another stab at producing some science for me? Pretty please?
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#9 of 28 Old 01-24-2015, 12:29 AM
 
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I don't know about the flu thing (I get the shot many, but not every year because at least then I'm protected from the virus strains which are in it, and anecdotally I've always been healthier the winters I did get it).

But I wanted to comment on the science behind why non vaxxers might be speeding up evolution (mutation) of bacteria/viruses.

The more of an organism there is around the more reproduction of that organism there is. So for example small pox was eradicated and is therefore no longer evolving. Polio is very rare and so there's limited chance for it to reproduce. Measles just got a big chance to reproduce itself a lot by spreading around 50 (mostly unvaccinated) people in Disneyland.

Evolution is driven by small mutations which have a chance if happening every time an organism reproduces. So the more reproduction, then the more mutation and the more chance a mutation will lead to a new version of the organism.

For my reference to this I cite every standard high school biology book (perhaps not any approved by the Texas school boards, but those approved by any working biologist).
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#10 of 28 Old 01-24-2015, 05:55 AM
 
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OTOH, bacteria wants to surivie and if a large percentage of a population is vaccinted, bacteria will change in order to survive…i.e serotype replacement. Pneumococcal vaccine is offered up as an example.

PSM - can you think of any examples of a VAD that have mutated or changed enough that the vaccine has lost efficacy due to low vaccination rates?
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OTOH, bacteria wants to surivie and if a large percentage of a population is vaccinted, bacteria will change in order to survive…i.e serotype replacement. Pneumococcal vaccine is offered up as an example.
That's a misunderstanding of how evolution works. Bacteria don't 'want' to survive - they don't want anything - but even if they were capable of consciously wanting something then that wouldn't affect their ability to mutate. Mutations happen by chance. They don't happen in response to our environment or to wanting something.

Where environment comes into play is in selecting for or against mutations that have happened. If a lot of people are getting vaccines against a germ and a mutation has produced an alternative form that isn't affected by the vaccine, then that's the form that's going to survive in much larger numbers. But the vaccine didn't cause the mutation in the first place. That was just random chance.

However, if you have less of an organism around and reproducing, then you have less chance for mutation to occur. So, if a disease is kept to low levels due to a vaccine, then there are many fewer of the bacteria or viruses around and reproducing, and there are that many fewer chances for a mutation to occur.

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PSM - can you think of any examples of a VAD that have mutated or changed enough that the vaccine has lost efficacy due to low vaccination rates?
The 'flu virus does this constantly, which is why 'flu vaccines need to be given again each year and why they're not among the most effective forms of vaccine - there are so many mutations that a few sneak around the vaccine each year. (Again, the vaccine isn't what's causing this - the 'flu virus just happens to be one that mutates more, which has always been the case.)
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#12 of 28 Old 01-25-2015, 03:23 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I don't know about the flu thing (I get the shot many, but not every year because at least then I'm protected from the virus strains which are in it, and anecdotally I've always been healthier the winters I did get it).

But I wanted to comment on the science behind why non vaxxers might be speeding up evolution (mutation) of bacteria/viruses.

The more of an organism there is around the more reproduction of that organism there is. So for example small pox was eradicated and is therefore no longer evolving. Polio is very rare and so there's limited chance for it to reproduce. Measles just got a big chance to reproduce itself a lot by spreading around 50 (mostly unvaccinated) people in Disneyland.

Evolution is driven by small mutations which have a chance if happening every time an organism reproduces. So the more reproduction, then the more mutation and the more chance a mutation will lead to a new version of the organism.

For my reference to this I cite every standard high school biology book (perhaps not any approved by the Texas school boards, but those approved by any working biologist).
Well, MRSA didn't develop because not enough people were taking antibiotics. And the none of the evidence that I'm seeing on pertussis and pneumoccocal are citing the unvaccinated as causal factors in their mutations. Using your arguments, however, pertussis would have a greater chance of reproducing NOT because people aren't getting vaccinated for it but because the vaccine isn't working well, leading vaccinated individuals to catch pertussis and often transmit it asymptomatically.
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Are you people talking about bacteria or unicorns? Because there are millions billions of bacteria in one host, so there is not need to have 100s of hosts with the same disease to create a mutated bacteria. 1 single vaccinated host can also provide the environment for the billions on bacteria to mutate.
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#14 of 28 Old 02-01-2015, 12:20 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Turquesa View Post
Could somebody please provide some scientific data to support the following statements?

"The single best way to protect against the flu is to get vaccinated each year." (Emphasis my own).
It is impossible to adduce an individual study to support this statement because there is no stipulated comparison treatment.
No study can support this 'single best' claim because there are an infinite number of potential alternatives. (Vitamin E? Garlic rubs? Clog dancing?) And I'd suspect that total social isolation is potentially more effective than vaccination at preventing flu. Far less feasible and tolerable though.

Quote:
"People who do get influenza after receiving the vaccine often have a milder case than those who did not get vaccinated."
You don't believe that cross-strain protection occurs, or you don't believe that it mitigates the observable symptoms? If the latter, see: Individuals with pre-existing immunity to related strains had lower illness severity with H1N1:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24056771

If the former, see other studies demonstrating that cross-strain immunoreactivity occurs:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19020111
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17707753
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25629172


Quote:
"Anti-vaxxers cause mutations in the pertussis bacteria." (No link. Sorry. I just continally see this in comment threads).
Nah. If anything, pertussis mutations are more likely to be the result of the vaccine exerting selective pressure on the bacteria to adapt to a vaccinated population.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3994516/
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#15 of 28 Old 02-01-2015, 02:15 PM - Thread Starter
 
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You don't believe that cross-strain protection occurs, or you don't believe that it mitigates the observable symptoms? If the latter, see: Individuals with pre-existing immunity to related strains had lower illness severity with H1N1:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24056771

If the former, see other studies demonstrating that cross-strain immunoreactivity occurs:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19020111
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17707753
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25629172
I interpreted the hyperlinked quote to mean the former.

Just so we're clear, none of this is a matter of what I "believe" or "don't believe." It's a matter of where the more compelling evidence lays, as well as which research gaps need closing. That first study looks really interesting, but it doesn't look like their methodology factored in vaccine-induced immunity.

The rest of the links were really interesting. Thanks for sharing.
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Assuming that vaccine induced immunity is equal in outcome to immunity achieved by exposure to illness and the body handling said illness is a big assumption which doesn't match with real world outcomes.

1) vaccine induced immunity doesn't transfer to infants

2) vaccine induced immunity doesn't last as long as illness induced immunity

just to give the two most obvious examples
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Do hit and run vulgar comments ever get posted in the VOS forum by supporters of vaccine choice? Does the VOS forum get vaccine critics dropping by and wishing their children dead?
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Maurice Hillman speaking on the live virus measles vaccine approved in 1963: "It provides high level and lasting immunity and is a paradigm for solving major medical problems without really understanding them."
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Do hit and run vulgar comments ever get posted in the VOS forum by supporters of vaccine choice? Does the VOS forum get vaccine critics dropping by and wishing their children dead?
I demand equal time for vulgar, hateful comments!!

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I demand equal time for vulgar, hateful comments!!

Maurice Hillman speaking on the live virus measles vaccine approved in 1963: "It provides high level and lasting immunity and is a paradigm for solving major medical problems without really understanding them."
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This is one of the most boring, tedious trolls ever. A wart on the face of the pro-vaccine movement. An insult to mothering! We deserve better.
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There's enough in those posts to be offensive to all decent human beings, IMO.
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#22 of 28 Old 02-03-2015, 05:37 PM
 
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I agree, this troll is very offensive. But you must admit that it is a pretty silly form of attack. Certainly not persuasive, and not really offensive because posting the same rudeness twenty times takes the edge off and just makes it look absurd.
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Someone isn't getting promoted to "Person-In-Charge-Of-Changing-The-Trash-Can-Liners-For-The-Senior-Drug-Rep". Remember, they were looking for someone with enthusiasm for the cause! Not so much murderous wishes for children, more so enthusiasm.
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#25 of 28 Old 02-07-2015, 05:57 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Turquesa View Post
That first study looks really interesting, but it doesn't look like their methodology factored in vaccine-induced immunity.
What's the difference? A specific T cell is a specific T cell regardless of whether the antigen came in a syringe or courtesy of an ill acquaintance.
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#26 of 28 Old 02-08-2015, 06:18 AM
 
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What's the difference? A specific T cell is a specific T cell regardless of whether the antigen came in a syringe or courtesy of an ill acquaintance.
Quoting my post above:
Assuming that vaccine induced immunity is equal in outcome to immunity achieved by exposure to illness and the body handling said illness is a big assumption which doesn't match with real world outcomes.

1) vaccine induced immunity doesn't transfer to infants

2) vaccine induced immunity doesn't last as long as illness induced immunity

just to give the two most obvious examples
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#27 of 28 Old 02-15-2015, 10:01 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Deborah View Post
Quoting my post above:
Assuming that vaccine induced immunity is equal in outcome to immunity achieved by exposure to illness and the body handling said illness is a big assumption which doesn't match with real world outcomes.
I never made that assumption, not sure where you got that from my post*.

The study I cited used the presence of flu strain-specific T cells to gauge pre-existing immunity. This particular aspect of cell-mediated immunity can be the result of either exposure to live virus or exposure to vaccine antigens. Either way, the presence of strain-specific T cells mitigates the symptomatic response to a novel flu strain.

*But incidentally, you are not correct that immunity of vaccine origin cannot transfer to infants; some humoral immunity, though not cell-mediated immunity, does transfer, effectiveness depending on the illness
http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/168/3/647.short
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa0708630
http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/142/6/844.short

Duration of protection from a vaccine depends on the specific VPI and the antigens used in the vax.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...64410X00002243

Varicella and pertussis tend to be time-limited. Smallpox seems to last for as long as they've followed it in most individuals.
http://www.nature.com/nm/journal/v9/n9/abs/nm917.html

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#28 of 28 Old 02-16-2015, 06:43 AM
 
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thanks for explaining further.
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