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#1 of 48 Old 02-02-2015, 09:21 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Inviting questions on vaccines

I am a medical student and scientist with a background in women's health and prenatal education. I would like to invite any questions about vaccine biology and evidence cited by pro/anti vaccine groups. I'm willing to address any questions folks might have - I know it's a heated issue on both sides and for those of you looking for a science perspective, I would like to offer my time to answering any questions objectively and to the best of my ability citing all sources along the way. My training includes a degree in molecular biology, several years of laboratory work and post-graduate education in medicine.
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#2 of 48 Old 02-02-2015, 09:39 PM
 
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Why?

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#3 of 48 Old 02-02-2015, 10:45 PM
 
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I appreciate your gentle approach to what seems like a genuine interest in discussing the matter, so here we go:

Since measles is the hot topic right now, I'm posting the package inserts for the MMR II and the ProQuad vaccines.

Both state that the vaccines haven't been evaluated for carcinogenic or mutagenic potential, or the potential to impair fertility.

MMR II Insert. Pg 6 : http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_.../mmr_ii_pi.pdf

ProQuad insert Pg 16:
http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_...proquad_pi.pdf

How can we say that vaccine safety has been thoroughly tested?

It was pointed out earlier that 63% of the CA measles cases are in people over the age of 20. Do you think it's possible that vaccine immunity has waned, and that's why so many adults are infected?

Thanks!

Last edited by mamakah; 02-04-2015 at 10:56 AM. Reason: accidental bolding and deleted part that came off as confrontational.
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#4 of 48 Old 02-03-2015, 01:59 AM
 
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IOW (in other words) why have so many adults, who have most likely had a measles vaccine in childhood (based on their DOB and the induction of the measles vaccine) been infected in this latest outbreak.
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#5 of 48 Old 02-03-2015, 07:28 AM
 
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Originally Posted by science_talk View Post
I am a medical student and scientist with a background in women's health and prenatal education. I would like to invite any questions about vaccine biology and evidence cited by pro/anti vaccine groups. I'm willing to address any questions folks might have - I know it's a heated issue on both sides and for those of you looking for a science perspective, I would like to offer my time to answering any questions objectively and to the best of my ability citing all sources along the way. My training includes a degree in molecular biology, several years of laboratory work and post-graduate education in medicine.
How many hours have you devoted to studying and understanding vaccines?
What are your thoughts on the fact the breast milk diminishes "vaccine efficiency"?
What are your thoughts on the benefit of bacteria from vagina birth?
Opinions on intravenous vitamin C for cancer treatment?

“neither a man nor a crowd nor a nation can be trusted to act humanely or to think sanely under the influence of a great fear.” Bertrand Russell.
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#6 of 48 Old 02-03-2015, 08:51 AM
 
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Why?
Ah, come on. Where's your sense of adventure? The OP is polite and articulate, and we haven't had one of these threads in a long time . . . .

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#7 of 48 Old 02-03-2015, 09:02 AM
 
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Welcome to MDC, Science_Talk. I do have some vaccine-related questions.

1. In light of the serotype replacement issues from Prevnar-7 and now Prevnar 13, are there any current stats on the frequency of each reported bacterial meningitis strain? Or are these data hard to gather because not all cases undergo laboratory confirmation?

2. I had three questions that I recently posted in another thread. If you have responses, please feel free to post them there. Citations, Please?

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#8 of 48 Old 02-03-2015, 11:47 AM
 
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Ah, come on. Where's your sense of adventure? The OP is polite and articulate, and we haven't had one of these threads in a long time . . . .
I could have sworn this thread was initially in the INV forum so the why was primarily for "why post it in a support forum for not vaccinating".

But you are right...where are my manners?

Welcome science_mind!

Do you have children?

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#9 of 48 Old 02-03-2015, 01:37 PM
 
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No replies from OP yet? maybe he/she was expecting questions related to birds and bees?

“neither a man nor a crowd nor a nation can be trusted to act humanely or to think sanely under the influence of a great fear.” Bertrand Russell.
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#10 of 48 Old 02-03-2015, 02:03 PM
 
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Patience, my good man. This person may have a busy day job.

And yes, some of these questions do require some digging for answers, even for the experts.

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#11 of 48 Old 02-04-2015, 08:05 AM
 
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Patience, my good man. This person may have a busy day job.

And yes, some of these questions do require some digging for answers, even for the experts.
I guess, the OP posted 2 days ago.

“neither a man nor a crowd nor a nation can be trusted to act humanely or to think sanely under the influence of a great fear.” Bertrand Russell.
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#12 of 48 Old 02-04-2015, 09:02 AM
 
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I do have questions, so many of them. I hope the new member can help me out on some of them.
Thanks for offering, I hope you will stay a while.
It's going to take a me a little while to gather up my questions. Please let us know you are here still before I do. Sometimes it takes me quite a while to write then edit a post (my husband laughs about this).
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#13 of 48 Old 02-04-2015, 10:00 AM
 
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Tick tock tick tock.......I want answers before i post more questions
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#14 of 48 Old 02-04-2015, 10:33 AM
 
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I'm not the OP, but I'd like to hear more about a question posed in another vaccination forum here about reporting if your own child contracted measles. From what I gather from that thread was that nobody would.

Is it not important to have your child's steps traced and reported so that others can be alerted to the exposure? So that those who may have contracted it can be put on alert and then their steps traced also to prevent further exposures... so on and so forth?

What can you tell me that helps me to not worry about this? I personally have a child with no immunities towards measles, chickenpox, mumps and TB and cannot be vaccinated for them. In addition, he is on a lifetime of immunosuppression drugs which makes these viruses potentially life threatening. I know we're the exception to the rule, but considering there are a few more in the minority who need to avoid such viruses like us, is there anything you can think of to ease our worries, or is it just "too bad, so sad" for us?

I feel that it could be the least one could do to help the stop the spread.

I'm not looking for a fight, or a battle of sarcastic remarks please. I'm just a very concerned mother that's worried about known measles reports, and know unreported measles.

Thank you for your help in me understanding your reasonings and extra thanks if you put my mind at ease.
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#15 of 48 Old 02-04-2015, 11:58 AM
 
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I'm not the OP, but I'd like to hear more about a question posed in another vaccination forum here about reporting if your own child contracted measles. From what I gather from that thread was that nobody would.

Is it not important to have your child's steps traced and reported so that others can be alerted to the exposure? So that those who may have contracted it can be put on alert and then their steps traced also to prevent further exposures... so on and so forth?

What can you tell me that helps me to not worry about this? I personally have a child with no immunities towards measles, chickenpox, mumps and TB and cannot be vaccinated for them. In addition, he is on a lifetime of immunosuppression drugs which makes these viruses potentially life threatening. I know we're the exception to the rule, but considering there are a few more in the minority who need to avoid such viruses like us, is there anything you can think of to ease our worries, or is it just "too bad, so sad" for us?

I feel that it could be the least one could do to help the stop the spread.

I'm not looking for a fight, or a battle of sarcastic remarks please. I'm just a very concerned mother that's worried about known measles reports, and know unreported measles.

Thank you for your help in me understanding your reasonings and extra thanks if you put my mind at ease.
I think tracing back only brings blame games...if my child had measles today, I would not know where he/she got it from, and since they are not vaxed, the blame would fall on us.
This is fearporn, last year there were almost 700 reported cases of measles and there was not much on the news, currently we have over 2300 cases of chikungunya, which is far more dangerous that measles, and no one says anything, then we have the EV-d68 virus that have infected over 1200 people and killed 14 and again, no news about it.

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#16 of 48 Old 02-04-2015, 12:01 PM
 
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I'm not the OP, but I'd like to hear more about a question posed in another vaccination forum here about reporting if your own child contracted measles. From what I gather from that thread was that nobody would.

Is it not important to have your child's steps traced and reported so that others can be alerted to the exposure? So that those who may have contracted it can be put on alert and then their steps traced also to prevent further exposures... so on and so forth?

What can you tell me that helps me to not worry about this? I personally have a child with no immunities towards measles, chickenpox, mumps and TB and cannot be vaccinated for them. In addition, he is on a lifetime of immunosuppression drugs which makes these viruses potentially life threatening. I know we're the exception to the rule, but considering there are a few more in the minority who need to avoid such viruses like us, is there anything you can think of to ease our worries, or is it just "too bad, so sad" for us?

I feel that it could be the least one could do to help the stop the spread.

I'm not looking for a fight, or a battle of sarcastic remarks please. I'm just a very concerned mother that's worried about known measles reports, and know unreported measles.

Thank you for your help in me understanding your reasonings and extra thanks if you put my mind at ease.
First as many pointed out it's simply not required by law.
If you have no complications and need no medical intervention why clinically test? Without testing it's simply guessing and that doesn't mean it is.
If your child has an issues it will also be for non-vaccine diseases too, do you need those reported? Again each state makes their own laws regarding diseases.
I'm not sure knowing after the facts helps you in your case with your child.
Requiring others to be subjected to testing doesn't sit well with many. As you see PRO vaccers don't generally support titer testing so why make others need to report for you?
That's not snarky but the truth-IMO

Immunization does not equal immunity, few that vac care one bit about it.
I don't see PRO vaccers wanting to know immunity only vaccine records. No push for that regarding schools!
To me your question is mute.
I'm sure that is not what you want to hear but I would not ask you to do it or make your child under go a test to please me.
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#17 of 48 Old 02-04-2015, 12:21 PM
 
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What can you tell me that helps me to not worry about this? I personally have a child with no immunities towards measles, chickenpox, mumps and TB and cannot be vaccinated for them. In addition, he is on a lifetime of immunosuppression drugs which makes these viruses potentially life threatening. I know we're the exception to the rule, but considering there are a few more in the minority who need to avoid such viruses like us, is there anything you can think of to ease our worries, or is it just "too bad, so sad" for us?
.
Would immunoglobulin work with your child? If so, then I can see practical reasons why you would want to know where someone with measles had been. If not, then there is no practical reason, although it might ease your mind (or cause you extra worry!) If your son cannot receive immunoglobulin, then knowing you were at the same Walmart as a person who later developped measles will not do much good.

http://www.patient.co.uk/doctor/immu...l-and-specific

One of the things you can do (and I am aware you are only one person) to encourage people to be more upfront about whether to report or confirm suspected measles would be to help create a more vaccine-choice friendly world. People talk about jailing non-vaxxers, removing their children, suing people with contagious VAD who are unimmunised, etc, etc. No one is going to want to report in this environment.

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#18 of 48 Old 02-04-2015, 12:36 PM
 
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I think tracing back only brings blame games...if my child had measles today, I would not know where he/she got it from, and since they are not vaxed, the blame would fall on us.
This is fearporn, last year there were almost 700 reported cases of measles and there was not much on the news, currently we have over 2300 cases of chikungunya, which is far more dangerous that measles, and no one says anything, then we have the EV-d68 virus that have infected over 1200 people and killed 14 and again, no news about it.
A blame game doesn't easy my worries though.

I worry about all the ickies, and do wish there was more reporting. That just makes my worry all the more intense. But just because X isn't reported shouldn't be a reason as to why Y and Z shouldn't be also.


The EV-d68 was reported on in my neck of the internets, and I followed that one closely.


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First as many pointed out it's simply not required by law.
If you have no complications and need no medical intervention why clinically test? Without testing it's simply guessing and that doesn't mean it is.
I don't think it being required by law is either here nor there. I would also assume one could report measles without medical intervention, unless intervention is considered the same as an evaluation.

Quote:
If your child has an issues it will also be for non-vaccine diseases too, do you need those reported? Again each state makes their own laws regarding diseases.
I would like them reported. The best I can do is follow what has been reported, like reports of D68 being in my state and in what proximity it is to me.

Quote:
I'm not sure knowing after the facts helps you in your case with your child.
Well, if someone reported their case of measles and their steps were traced back, those who are unvaccinated can, hopefully, do the responsible thing and quarantine themselves to help stop the transmission. Said unknowingly exposed unvaccinated person could very well go about their life and travel to my local co-op where my son and I are shopping.

Quote:
Requiring others to be subjected to testing doesn't sit well with many. As you see PRO vaccers don't generally support titer testing so why make others need to report for you?
That's not snarky but the truth-IMO
Snarky clarification appreciated, although I didn't get that vibe anyway. Thank you.

I know nothing about pro-vaccers being anti-titer testing. Of everybody I've spoken to, most are oblivious that vaccines could not take in the first place, let alone there being tests for it. After I mention this, they're generally concerned and agree that they'd be best off knowing what they're immune to and not.

I don't see this as a me issue, although in fairness, it is how I presented it. I see it as an issue many people may have to deal with, especially if there's others like my son who's vaccinations didn't take. They don't need to report to me, they should want to know for themselves. As an added bonus, they could do it in the general interest of social responsibility (I know we'll differ on that, but I really don't want to sidetrack from my original question if possible)

Quote:
Immunization does not equal immunity, few that vac care one bit about it.
I don't see PRO vaccers wanting to know immunity only vaccine records. No push for that regarding schools!
To me your question is mute.
I'm sure that is not what you want to hear but I would not ask you to do it or make your child under go a test to please me.
And I do know that to be truth with my own experience. I don't think I agree that pro-vaccers are only interested in records... I believe they're just uninformed as to the possibilities of vaccinations not always taking like assumed. I would like to see this problem more known to everybody.

As for your last sentence, if you choose to not vaccinate, then I wouldn't see any reason for your children to be tested.

I do think we've gotten off point a bit. I want my mind put to ease as to how NOT reporting a case of measles doesn't put the general public at risk.
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#19 of 48 Old 02-04-2015, 12:43 PM
 
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I don't think it being required by law is either here nor there. I would also assume one could report measles without medical intervention, unless intervention is considered the same as an evaluation.
If, as one study demonstrated, 97% of physicians can't correctly diagnose measles why would you have faith in measles case reports from non-physicians? There are at least four other viruses that present similarly.

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#20 of 48 Old 02-04-2015, 12:48 PM
 
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Would immunoglobulin work with your child? If so, then I can see practical reasons why you would want to know where someone with measles had been. If not, then there is no practical reason, although it might ease your mind (or cause you extra worry!) If your son cannot receive immunoglobulin, then knowing you were at the same Walmart as a person who later developped measles will not do much good.

http://www.patient.co.uk/doctor/immu...l-and-specific

One of the things you can do (and I am aware you are only one person) to encourage people to be more upfront about whether to report or confirm suspected measles would be to help create a more vaccine-choice friendly world. People talk about jailing non-vaxxers, removing their children, suing people with contagious VAD who are unimmunised, etc, etc. No one is going to want to report in this environment.
I did a quick Google search before seeing you gave me a link to read. I'll read it. The medication he is on is to suppress his immunities from attacking himself, and from the whole 2 minutes of reading stuff I didn't quite understand, my tentative answer is I have no effing clue, lol.

I do understand the heat ya'll are getting at the current moment, and I do not agree with all these crazy punishments. However, I would guess that stating that you'd hide a case of measles to anybody (or on this now highly cited message board), would only fuel that fire. You're now not only in trouble for choosing to not vaccinate, but now for aiding it's spread. At least that's how I see it.

I would hope that all his jailing talk is just stupid fear talk. I understand your concerns about it, but hiding such an infectious virus certainly can't help your case IMO.
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#21 of 48 Old 02-04-2015, 12:54 PM
 
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If, as one study demonstrated, 97% of physicians can't correctly diagnose measles why would you have faith in measles case reports from non-physicians? There are at least four other viruses that present similarly.
Was the study done in regards of children who just presented with a high fever, or they couldn't even tell it was measles after the "tell tail" rash?

I don't know where I said or implied I would have faith in measles reports from non-physicians though. The closest I can think of is that we have a misunderstanding. One could call and say they believe their child has measles, and a doctor could look at the rash and other such signs, and make a diagnosis without medical intervention. I would assume some professional would have to look over a child to report a case of measles and would not report a case with just a parent's self diagnosis.
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#22 of 48 Old 02-04-2015, 12:57 PM
 
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Clarification to my wording previously.

Quote:
Well, if someone reported their case of measles and their steps were traced back, those who are unvaccinated can, hopefully, do the responsible thing and quarantine themselves to help stop the transmission. Said unknowingly exposed unvaccinated person could very well go about their life and travel to my local co-op where my son and I are shopping.
*those who were exposed and unvaccinated can, hopefully, do the responsible thing and quarantine themselves/children to help stop the transmission.
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You're now not only in trouble for choosing to not vaccinate...

Oh boy. You speak as if we deserve a time out. I don't see it as being in "trouble." I see it as being inappropriately condemned. And don't forget, we are well within the laws to choose so (for now anyway).

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#24 of 48 Old 02-04-2015, 01:04 PM
 
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I don't see this as a me issue, although in fairness, it is how I presented it. I see it as an issue many people may have to deal with, especially if there's others like my son who's vaccinations didn't take. They don't need to report to me, they should want to know for themselves. As an added bonus, they could do it in the general interest of social responsibility (I know we'll differ on that, but I really don't want to sidetrack from my original question if possible)
My son's vaccines didn't take either (but he did get a big old dose of autism). Honestly, it was like pulling teeth to get his titres tested. The doctor was afraid of raising red flags. I think people wouldn't object to have their titres tested but I believe that is not something that the medical industrial complex would ever encourage.

In light of how vaccine injured people have been/are treated, it's really almost comical to insist that we (as in the public) should be compelled by social responsibility to make any medical decision.

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#25 of 48 Old 02-04-2015, 01:06 PM
 
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Clarification to my wording previously.



*those who were exposed and unvaccinated can, hopefully, do the responsible thing and quarantine themselves/children to help stop the transmission.
What about the exposed and vaccinated? Should they not do the responsible thing and quarantine themselves?

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#26 of 48 Old 02-04-2015, 01:13 PM
 
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Would immunoglobulin work with your child?
I checked your link, and also checked immunoglobulin vs. one of his medications. It is a no-go apparently.

I do have to take off and shuffle some children around and deal with dinner. I hope to get back to this thread soon.

Samaxtics - I see one of your replies down below my posting here. Just quickly, and I'll be sure to read both your posts... in my perfect world, these vaccinated people would have their titers checked. In my current state of paranoia, absolutely. The odds are that they're protected though, and in reality, that's all I've got to go on. However, I'll ponder more as I go about doing my parenting obligations.
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@Moonbat

Are you in the U.S.? Because I am and my health care and that of the majority I know isn't FREE.

Are you paying for all this that you are asking for?

No way is this fair. PRO vaccer are not required to do so nor am I and I have no plans to do.

There are numerous diseases, I do not need to public state my heath conditions or disease status or that of my child's.

All that you are asking for comes at a cost, financial and personal.

Good luck getting others to agree with you.

I simply do not.

I find your posts very much "me" posts. Insulting and hyper fear based too. Not much on reality given the personal freedoms you want not to mention the accuracy & cost, quite unrealistic.
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#28 of 48 Old 02-04-2015, 01:26 PM
 
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Unfortunately, just having a doctor look at the symptoms won't fly. Measles is massively misdiagnosed. It is also under-diagnosed in the vaccinated as far as I can tell.

Finally, are you aware that anyone vaxed with a live vaccine could endanger someone with immune problems? That includes flu-mist, rotavirus, MMR, and chickenpox vaccines. Did I miss any?

http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/kimme...atient%204.pdf

There are people who will be very careful about exposures and let others know they may have been exposed without opening up a media hysteria. The current situation is guaranteed to cause people who do have unvaxed kids with possible illnesses to lie low to avoid being scapegoated. Not a good situation for anyone.

The link which included a statement about avoiding the recently vaxed has gone dead. I was expecting that!
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#29 of 48 Old 02-04-2015, 01:32 PM
 
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Sorry you are paranoid, but making you feel better is not my top priority, my top priority is to protect my children.
The double standard is not something I want to deal with or expose my children with.
Sounds based on your comments that you want people to report any case of measles regardless of severity so you can feel safe at the mall?
I will just be the @-hole of the thread and say I am not doing it. In case my perception of your comments is completely off mark, I apologize, and hope you forgive me ( I work with 2 year olds with MD attached to their names all day).

“neither a man nor a crowd nor a nation can be trusted to act humanely or to think sanely under the influence of a great fear.” Bertrand Russell.
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#30 of 48 Old 02-04-2015, 01:33 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonbat View Post
Was the study done in regards of children who just presented with a high fever, or they couldn't even tell it was measles after the "tell tail" rash?

I don't know where I said or implied I would have faith in measles reports from non-physicians though. The closest I can think of is that we have a misunderstanding. One could call and say they believe their child has measles, and a doctor could look at the rash and other such signs, and make a diagnosis without medical intervention. I would assume some professional would have to look over a child to report a case of measles and would not report a case with just a parent's self diagnosis.
Here's what you said:
Quote:
I would also assume one could report measles without medical intervention, unless intervention is considered the same as an evaluation.
I took "without medical intervention" to mean without seeing a doctor. Usually when someone states "they did not seek medical attention" it means they did not see a medical professional at all. It doesn't mean "they saw a medical professional but no treatment was offered".

And I'm going to offer that if it isn't lab confirmed we can't be sure it is the measles. You can find the sources for the following quotes at: http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/20...otten-history/

Quote:
MLI (Measles-Like Illness) is common, particularly in younger age groups, and can be caused by a variety of pathogens that are difficult to differentiate clinically without laboratory guidance. In order of frequency, other common viral causes of rash-like illness – parvovirus B19, rubella, cytomegalovirus, and Epstein–Barr virus – were identified in our study. [49]
Quote:
Measles is wrongly diagnosed in 97 per cent of cases, according to new data from the Public Health Laboratory Service… We’re not saying for one minute that GPs [General Practioners] are poor at making diagnosis – these findings show how inherently difficult it is to make a diagnosis based on clinical symptoms alone. Any doctor would find it difficult to differentiate between viruses...
And correction, it wasn't 97% of doctors, it was 97% of cases that were wrongly diagnosed as measles.

"Practically every food you buy in a store for consumption by humans is genetically modified food"
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