"But what about the immunocompromised?" - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 30 Old 04-19-2015, 05:42 PM - Thread Starter
 
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"But what about the immunocompromised?"

Here is a wonderful article tackling the difficult question of the immunocompromised. I thought it would be a great springboard for discussion.

https:[email protected]/the-trut...d-b08033549932

She does cite the JHU notice about vaccine shedding that was later changed with no stated scientific rationale. She could have gotten her point across citing St. Jude's, but it's a minor nitpick.

Anyway, let's chat about it!

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The problem with the IM narrative is that it’s not just a little bit of a lie; it’s really a thundering herd kind of a lie. It’s not a lie you could drive a truck through, it’s a lie you could really drive a giant convoy through, as we will now explain.

“It is simply no longer possible to believe much of the clinical research that is published, or to rely on the judgment of trusted physicians or authoritative medical guidelines.” - Marcia Angell, M.D., former NEJM Editor
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#2 of 30 Old 04-19-2015, 06:07 PM
 
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I suspect being sanctimonious around vaccines and the immune compromised is counter productive.

I wonder if the immune compromised appreciate having themselves invoked in vaccine wars. While I suspect some do, I equally suspect some don't.

There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#3 of 30 Old 04-19-2015, 06:08 PM
 
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It doesn't look like you included a link.
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#4 of 30 Old 04-19-2015, 06:09 PM - Thread Starter
 
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There were some cancer survivors and other immunocompromised people speaking out against SB277. So yes, I suspect there are a good many who are tired of getting misrepresented and exploited as human mascots for the vaccine compliance cause.

“It is simply no longer possible to believe much of the clinical research that is published, or to rely on the judgment of trusted physicians or authoritative medical guidelines.” - Marcia Angell, M.D., former NEJM Editor
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#5 of 30 Old 04-19-2015, 06:10 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Oops. Added the link.

“It is simply no longer possible to believe much of the clinical research that is published, or to rely on the judgment of trusted physicians or authoritative medical guidelines.” - Marcia Angell, M.D., former NEJM Editor
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#6 of 30 Old 04-19-2015, 06:25 PM
 
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Ok, my first problem with this article is using the reportable communicable diseases table to try to convey risks to school children. Q fever? Tularemia? Hantavirus? Smallpox? SARS, Yellow Fever... etc, etc

Yeah... you don't pick those things up at school. At least not in normal situations.

But of course, IM people are at risk of minor things, like colds, too. Too bad we haven't found an effective way to stop cold virus from circulating, other than handwashing and basic hygiene.

None of this justifies not vaccinating for things that can be prevented. Because IM kids are vulnerable to colds, too, doesn't mean that measles should spread freely in the community.
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#7 of 30 Old 04-19-2015, 06:31 PM
 
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None of this justifies not vaccinating for things that can be prevented. Because IM kids are vulnerable to colds, too, doesn't mean that measles should spread freely in the community.
One does not need to justify not vaccinating.

Vaccination poses risks to those who undego it - as such they, or their parents, can opt out if they do not want to accept those risks.
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#8 of 30 Old 04-19-2015, 06:38 PM
 
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Making an argument that vaccination does not matter in public schools is an attempt to justify not vaccinating.
It doesn't matter if one needs to do it or not. They are unsuccessful in trying if the best argument they present is "other things can kill people too."
Things like colds and Q fever and syphillis.
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#9 of 30 Old 04-19-2015, 06:44 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ss834 View Post
Making an argument that vaccination does not matter in public schools is an attempt to justify not vaccinating.
It doesn't matter if one needs to do it or not. They are unsuccessful in trying if the best argument they present is "other things can kill people too."
Things like colds and Q fever and syphillis.
The argument is that children with serious immune problems will be safe in schools if vaccination rates are higher. The counter argument is that it is impossible for children with serious immune problems to be be safe in a school setting. And therefore justifying kicking thousands of children out of school in order to make it SAFE for children with serious immune problems is nonsense.

The argument is not between:
1) Everyone quit vaccinating
2) Everyone has to get every single vaccine currently available and every new vaccine which is recommended.

The argument is that kicking all of the children out of schools who are not completely up to date on every single vaccine won't make it safe for children with serious immune problems. All that would be accomplished would be to deprive some children of education.
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#10 of 30 Old 04-19-2015, 07:01 PM
 
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Making an argument that vaccination does not matter in public schools is an attempt to justify not vaccinating.

Yes, and perhaps they shouldn't. Not vaccinating is the default - the onus should be on others to justify vaccination. We need to stop playing defense. You cannot justify a medical procedure in another short of the other being a very sick child with non-compliant parents, so good luck with that.


It doesn't matter if one needs to do it or not. They are unsuccessful in trying if the best argument they present is "other things can kill people too."
Things like colds and Q fever and syphillis.

Actually, they had a number of arguments - and some were indeed stronger than the "other things can kill, too," such as the personal responsibility issue, as well as pointing out that adults, who compromise about 10-20% of the school population have no such rules around mandatory vaccines.

Kathy
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#11 of 30 Old 04-19-2015, 07:08 PM - Thread Starter
 
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If the article has one flaw, it's the failure to include information about vaccine failure. The mumps, pertussis, influenza (both vaccine-targeted and not), and chicken pox cases floating so prevalently among vaccinated children can prove deadly to the immumocompromised children whose parents were misled to believe that they were somehow "safe" in a low-exemption school.

Imagine a large battlefield complete with explosions, machine guns, air bombs, and snipers. Now imagine telling one of these defenseless children, "It's OK. We deactivated all the land mines. You're safe to go out there now."

Or why not just say, "It's OK. Everybody in the classroom is vaccinated against this handful of diseases. You're perfectly safe now!"

The world is a microbiologic battlefield for the immunocompromised. If one of them were my children, I'd fight like a tiger to avoid a classroom setting.
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#12 of 30 Old 04-19-2015, 07:11 PM
 
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I don't hear the argument as being that they will be totally safe, but that they will be safer. All kids are safer in communities where communicable diseases are not spreading. So it really goes back to the same debate about whether vaccines work to control the spread of disease, and if they are also safe.

Assuming vaccines are safe, and that they work, then all kids and people will be safer in communities where vaccination rates are high enough to confer protection even to the unvaccinated or immunocompromised.
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#13 of 30 Old 04-19-2015, 07:18 PM
 
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Safer isn't good enough if your child can be killed by chickenpox or influenza or a cold. Because even 100% vaccination of all the children in a classroom cannot guarantee that someone won't catch one of those illnesses.

And convincing a parent that there child is safe enough when they aren't is bad medicine.
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#14 of 30 Old 04-19-2015, 07:35 PM
 
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Safer isn't good enough if your child can be killed by chickenpox or influenza or a cold. Because even 100% vaccination of all the children in a classroom cannot guarantee that someone won't catch one of those illnesses.

And convincing a parent that there child is safe enough when they aren't is bad medicine.
Fair enough. No one can guarantee anything in life. I'd expect parents of seriously ill children to be among the group who understands that.
I don't resent them for pleading for seemingly normal life experiences for their children. I don't resent healthcare workers and legislators for wanting to make that a little bit easier for them, either.
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http://thinkingmomsrevolution.com/do...ct-cancer-kid/

http://fearlessparent.org/what-about...nocompromised/

Fun reading on the topic. Non-vax POV. The second article in particular is intereating - how many people are sufficiently immune compromised that they cannot be vaxxed? It seems very few. Compare this to how many people have severe vaccine reactions (unknown #).
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#16 of 30 Old 04-19-2015, 08:00 PM
 
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Normal life experiences required for children who are at risk if they catch a cold.

However it is okay to deprive thousands of children of access to schools because they MIGHT at some point be able to spread illness.

Disregarding the fact that children who are 100% up to date on vaccines can also spread illness, including illnesses for which they have received vaccines.

Disregarding the fact that a child who has Hep B can attend school and their medical condition doesn't have to be disclosed. A child who doesn't have Hep B, but hasn't been vaxed shouldn't be able to attend school, because they are dangerous to the child who has immune problems.

The whole game is simply a matter of exploiting children who are ill and the goal is to force more children to comply with the very much too big US vaccine schedule.
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#17 of 30 Old 04-19-2015, 08:10 PM
 
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My analysis of the actual points made in the article linked in the OP

Teachers vaccination rates don't have to be disclosed. So a teacher could be hacking whooping cough all over the class (vaxed or not, of course, doesn't matter) and disclosing vax rates of the children will do what?

The point that keeps being brought up--that some of the reportable illnesses are rare and unusual--but not all of them. Influenza for example is supposedly very common and influenza vaccination rates will not be reported.

Next point: a mother with an actual child who was severely immune-compromised explains that even with most children vaxed, her child could rarely attend school because so many illnesses were going around.
Quote:
Despite a nearly 100% vaccine compliance rate at our school, there were regular outbreaks of shingles, occurring after chicken pox vaccine boosters, influenza and other illnesses.
Then there is a handy chart covering all the exceptions who can be in the classroom. Aides. We already mentioned teachers. A child who got vaccinated but didn't respond to all of the vaccines with good immunity. And many more examples.

A long discussion of the risks of live vaccines. Even if some of them are at low risk of shedding, it is still a risk.

Perhaps we should discuss the whole article?
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#18 of 30 Old 04-19-2015, 08:23 PM
 
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I'm immunocompromised. I wash my hands, stay home if I hear there is a bug going around and I dont really care about vaccination rates. I just treat every place like it could make me sick, because it can. Oddly enough, I take lots of vitamin D and probiotics, and I have friends that actually get sick more often and more severely than I do. Its my job to keep me healthy, and I cant control what other people do. I am not allowed to get live virus vaccines until I have been off my medication for at least 6 months. When immunocompromised enough, something as simple as a cold can lead to a secondary infection that can be lethal over time. So really there is no safety. You can either be around people or you cant.

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#19 of 30 Old 04-19-2015, 09:47 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I edited my first post because I was wrong about the article being written by a former drug company researcher. The anonymous team of authors interviewed her and then footnoted her credentials, which I mistook to be the about-an-author bit. (I've met Oregonians who fear personal and professional repercussions for speaking out, so I totally support the anonymity).

At a more careful reading, I realized that the 67 disease mentioned in the article aren't all of the diseases and illnesses out there; they're just the legally reportable ones. If you wrote a list of every possible infectious disease that a child could catch in the classroom, that list would look a lot larger. Common classroom ailments like Cocksackie virus, Fifths Disease, norovirus, and contagious ILI would send an immunocompromised child out on a stretcher.
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#20 of 30 Old 04-25-2015, 07:58 AM - Thread Starter
 
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So let's summarize why invoking the name of the immunocompromised is a poor way to push for vaccine schedule compliance.

1. Some vaccines required for school admission don't even transmit casually in classrooms, (e.g. tetanus, Hep A, Hep B, HPV), so they're moot.

2. Even without non-medical exemptions, complete protection will never be attained because a classroom, at any time, may contain A) teachers, staff, volunteers, and visitors who may not be up-to-date, B) HIV+ and Hep B+ children who are legally allowed to attend school, C) low-immunity and non-responders to vaccines D) kids vaccinated for pertussis who are unaware that their immunity has waned E) conditional entrants who are not yet fully vaccinated, F) homeless children who don't require a record, and G) a large number and any combination of pathogens not covered, targeted, or protected by vaccines but could seriously endanger the immunocompromised.

3. Even the immunocompromised can received most, if not all, vaccines.

4. Anyone who is afraid that their vaccines will stop working around unvaccinated children should fear the medically exempted child with as much fervor and terror in their hearts as they fear the non-medically exempted one.

5. Vaccines fail. All the time.

6. Immunocompromised children are therefore much safer learning outside of the classroom.

Am I missing anything?
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#21 of 30 Old 04-25-2015, 12:00 PM
 
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So let's summarize why invoking the name of the immunocompromised is a poor way to push for vaccine schedule compliance.

1. Some vaccines required for school admission don't even transmit casually in classrooms, (e.g. tetanus, Hep A, Hep B, HPV), so they're moot.

2. Even without non-medical exemptions, complete protection will never be attained because a classroom, at any time, may contain A) teachers, staff, volunteers, and visitors who may not be up-to-date, B) HIV+ and Hep B+ children who are legally allowed to attend school, C) low-immunity and non-responders to vaccines D) kids vaccinated for pertussis who are unaware that their immunity has waned E) conditional entrants who are not yet fully vaccinated, F) homeless children who don't require a record, and G) a large number and any combination of pathogens not covered, targeted, or protected by vaccines but could seriously endanger the immunocompromised.

3. Even the immunocompromised can received most, if not all, vaccines.

4. Anyone who is afraid that their vaccines will stop working around unvaccinated children should fear the medically exempted child with as much fervor and terror in their hearts as they fear the non-medically exempted one.

5. Vaccines fail. All the time.

6. Immunocompromised children are therefore much safer learning outside of the classroom.

Am I missing anything?
It's also the mom who comes into the classroom to help out for a party.
The sibling & other family that attend events, sports, music.
That volunteers.
The support non- teaching staff. Some are contracted out and not school employees, food service, busing, etc.
Not just kiddies in school!

Many family members (not employed by the school or contracted out) interact with school children everyday.

Also after & before school care, my area made up mainly of volunteers.

I know the desire is to shoot everyone up but reality is many won't & can't be immunized-so count all of them too!

Make sure they don't go to the sporting event or on the field trip!

Really it's a joke-IMO
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#22 of 30 Old 04-26-2015, 08:29 AM
 
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It is a false sense of security when they aren't testing the vaccinated to see if they've acquired immunity and there are so many diseases out there that are not covered by vaccines. Fifth's disease went around my ds' school like a wildfire.

The immunocompromised are not without options. They can do online schooling. They could have a private tutor. And I think some of the cancer/rehabilitation hospitals offer schooling as well whilst they are patients there.

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#23 of 30 Old 04-26-2015, 08:35 AM
 
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It is a false sense of security when they aren't testing the vaccinated to see if they've acquired immunity and there are so many diseases out their that are not covered by vaccines. Fifth's disease went around my ds' school like a wildfire.

The immunocompromised are not without options. They can do online schooling. They could have a private tutor. And I think some of the cancer/rehabilitation hospitals offer schooling as well whilst they are patients there.
IMO I think it should be proof of immunity not proof of immunization, but (on here) PRO vaccers don't support testing. Good figure!
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#24 of 30 Old 04-26-2015, 09:07 AM
 
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IMO I think it should be proof of immunity not proof of immunization, but (on here) PRO vaccers don't support testing. Good figure!
We really have no idea how much of the population is really immune.

Dr. Gregory Poland’s research highlights the variations in individual responses to measles vaccine.

http://journals.plos.org/plospathoge...t-1002344-g002

Quote:
Our population-based MMR vaccine studies also determined that host gene polymorphisms are associated with measurable inter-individual variations in measles vaccine–induced immunity.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3570049/

Obesity, 17% of American youth are obese (JAMA 2014;311(8):806-814. doi:10.1001/jama.2014.732). It is known that obesity impairs immune response to influenza, Hep B and tetanus vaccines. It could be extrapolated that obesity-related immune impairment applies to other vaccines as well. This isn't intended to scapegoat fat people but it should be know that they might not be immune via vaccination.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3270113/

http://uthscsa.edu/micro-immunology/...toimmunity.pdf

It is highly likely that obese children are intentionally excluded from vaccination study protocols such as the ones conducted by Gregory Poland and vaccine manufacturers, just as children with many other pre-existing conditions are excluded from those types of studies in order to obtain the highest possible rates of sero-conversion. This is one reason for the disparity between clinical vs. real-world vaccine efficacy: clinical studies are conducted with a pre-selected group of individuals designed to be high responders.
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#25 of 30 Old 04-26-2015, 06:22 PM
 
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clinical studies are conducted with a pre-selected group of individuals designed to be high responders.
Excellent point.

That same pre-selected group is designed to be low reactors.
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#26 of 30 Old 09-13-2015, 07:10 PM
 
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Bumping this thread up because the immunocompromised continue to be exploited as a reason for kicking children out of school.
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#27 of 30 Old 09-14-2015, 05:05 AM
 
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Bumping this thread up because the immunocompromised continue to be exploited as a reason for kicking children out of school.
I should start a homeschooling thread on the INV board. Clearly, tptb place the needs of one group over the needs over another. Screw them.

Interestingly enough, the schools often do want us. They want butts in seats - in gives them more $$$$. In small school in particular, this could be leverage.

There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#28 of 30 Old 09-14-2015, 05:25 AM
 
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It certainly is an issue in Vermont. I think that is another reason the bill removing the philosophical exemption was rushed through at the last moment. They didn't want anyone to have time to figure out how many children were going to be removed from school and at what cost to some small town schools.

vaccine injury is preventable
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#29 of 30 Old 09-14-2015, 05:33 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Deborah View Post
It certainly is an issue in Vermont. I think that is another reason the bill removing the philosophical exemption was rushed through at the last moment. They didn't want anyone to have time to figure out how many children were going to be removed from school and at what cost to some small town schools.
It isn't really good governance, IMO, to panic over a measles outbreak and push through legislation so quickly.

the two options are :

1. reactionary bad governance

2 deliberate waiting for a specific incident (such as a measles outbreak) that they could use to incite the masses and thus quickly push through what they want.

Bad news, either way, and not just Vermont.

There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

Book and herb loving mama to 1 preteen and 2 teens (when did that happen?).  We travel, go to school, homeschool, live rurally, eat our veggies, spend too much time...


Last edited by kathymuggle; 09-14-2015 at 05:45 AM.
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#30 of 30 Old 09-14-2015, 09:16 AM
 
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Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post
It isn't really good governance, IMO, to panic over a measles outbreak and push through legislation so quickly.

the two options are :

1. reactionary bad governance

2 deliberate waiting for a specific incident (such as a measles outbreak) that they could use to incite the masses and thus quickly push through what they want.

Bad news, either way, and not just Vermont.
I think that it was a combo. The vaccine pushers seized their moment and the legislators were easily manipulated because they were reacting to the hysteria.

vaccine injury is preventable
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