Vaccine Requirements for Pregnant Women - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 82 Old 04-23-2015, 08:48 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Vaccine Requirements for Pregnant Women

A Texas committee is hearing a bill this morning to require vaccination for school employees. Should pregnant school employees have to submit to this law, or would you consider it a violation of their reproductive freedom? (I've also wondered this about pregnant hospital employees forced to get flu shots to keep their jobs). If so, should bodily autonomy only apply to pregnant women, i.e. one body carrying another body?

I'm pro-life and have a serious problem with a law forcing me to take a risk for myself and my unborn.

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#2 of 82 Old 04-23-2015, 09:50 AM
 
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I disagree with the entire idea of all employees being forced to begin with, but pregnant women opens way too many issues. For one, what vaccines are they even talking about requiring? Many are contraindicated in pregnancy and a woman would in theory be unable to comply, even if willing. How would they handle that? And if making exceptions for some vaccines, why not just let her wait until after birth for all (in the example of an otherwise ok with having to get the vaccines individual, not someone who will be turning them down no matter what).

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#3 of 82 Old 04-23-2015, 11:36 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I'll clarify the vaccines when I find a link to the bill.

MDC has a long history of dissent against court-ordered cesareans and other coercive medical interventions on pregnant and laboring women. Pro-choicers cite reproductive rights, and pro-lifers cite parental rights. But both have reached across the aisle and shaken hands, agreeing that pushing pregnant women around like this is wrong. I wonder if we'll hear these voices re-emerge as increasingly more women get coerced into vaccination while pregnant.
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#4 of 82 Old 04-23-2015, 11:40 AM
 
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There are vaccines that are contraindicated in pregnancy. There are also vaccines that are recommended during pregnancy. It seems like a pregnant woman would easily qualify for a temporary medical exemption.
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#5 of 82 Old 04-23-2015, 11:58 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Can you provide evidence of pregnant nurses being allowed to get a medical exemption from employer-mandated flu shots? I finally found the Texas bill and see no such provision. https://legiscan.com/TX/text/SB1114/id/1160237

It also looks like whatever is mandated will be up to unelected bureaucrats.

FWIW some of us require a higher caliber of evidence than post-production experimentation, (i.e. "post-marketing surveillance"), prior to consenting to medical intervention.

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#6 of 82 Old 04-23-2015, 12:23 PM
 
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Can you provide evidence of pregnant nurses being allowed to get a medical exemption from employer-mandated flu shots? I finally found the Texas bill and see no such provision. https://legiscan.com/TX/text/SB1114/id/1160237
No, but pregnancy is a contraindication for some vaccines. Do you have evidence that pregnant women will be forced to get vaccines that are contraindicated during pregnancy?

From your link:
Quote:
(c) The policy must: ....

...(4)
include procedures for a school employee to be exempt from the required vaccines for the medical conditions identified as contraindications or precautions by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention;
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#7 of 82 Old 04-23-2015, 02:31 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm not concerned about the contraindicated vaccines. I'm pretty confident that women could get out of MMR shots, for example. My concerns are with those that are "officially" recommended to pregnant women, such as TDaP and influenza. Would it be a violation of reproductive and/or parental rights to force these medical interventions on pregnant women under threat of losing their jobs?
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#8 of 82 Old 04-23-2015, 03:44 PM
 
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Flu and Tdap, as you point out, are recommended for pregnant women. Assuming your views on the mandate as a whole are either in favor or opposed, then why would pregnant women be subject to some different rules when it comes to those vaccines which are recommended for them? (Indeed, recommended for pregnant women as a higher priority group for flu vaccination)

Pregnant women should be treated exactly the same as any other adult for recommended vaccines, and should clearly have a medical exemption for those vaccines for which there is a contraindication during pregnancy.
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#9 of 82 Old 04-23-2015, 04:20 PM
 
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Flu and Tdap, as you point out, are recommended for pregnant women. Assuming your views on the mandate as a whole are either in favor or opposed, then why would pregnant women be subject to some different rules when it comes to those vaccines which are recommended for them? (Indeed, recommended for pregnant women as a higher priority group for flu vaccination)

Pregnant women should be treated exactly the same as any other adult for recommended vaccines, and should clearly have a medical exemption for those vaccines for which there is a contraindication during pregnancy.
Have both Tdap and influenza vaccines been tested extensively on pregnant women? Have they been tested on pregnant women at all? Pregnant women aren't included in clinical trials.

Tdap is a Class C drug and influenza vaccine also has not been tested for safety or effectiveness on pregnant or nursing mothers. Why should pregnant women be mandated vaccines? (Well, anyone for that matter, but we're just talking about pregnant women here.)
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#10 of 82 Old 04-23-2015, 06:45 PM
 
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Have both Tdap and influenza vaccines been tested extensively on pregnant women? Have they been tested on pregnant women at all?
They have been tested on pregnant women in post-licensure studies. We've discussed some of those studies here. The package inserts by the manufacturers have not been updated to reflect these data (they weren't manufacturer studies), but the companies operate safety registries for pregnant women and are required to report if any safety signals show up.
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#11 of 82 Old 04-24-2015, 04:43 AM
 
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They have been tested on pregnant women in post-licensure studies. We've discussed some of those studies here. The package inserts by the manufacturers have not been updated to reflect these data (they weren't manufacturer studies), but the companies operate safety registries for pregnant women and are required to report if any safety signals show up.
Safety registries? Not getting a comfortable or secure feeling with the idea of registries. Did the pregnancy categories change at all for those two vaccines? Are they still Category C (or Category B/C influenza) vaccines? If so, my question still stands as to why pregnant women would still fall under the same umbrella as everyone else.
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#12 of 82 Old 04-24-2015, 09:57 AM
 
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Safety registries? Not getting a comfortable or secure feeling with the idea of registries. Did the pregnancy categories change at all for those two vaccines? Are they still Category C (or Category B/C influenza) vaccines? If so, my question still stands as to why pregnant women would still fall under the same umbrella as everyone else.
I don't think the categories have changed. I already explained why I think pregnant women should be treated like other adults when it comes to their rights.
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#13 of 82 Old 04-24-2015, 10:10 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I don't think the categories have changed. I already explained why I think pregnant women should be treated like other adults when it comes to their rights.
In other words, they shouldn't have any with vaccines?

Don't answer that. I don't want to ensnare you in an MDC UA.

I just find this protective bubble around vaccines fascinating. They're apparently immune to corruption, conflicts of interest, criticism, and now any consideration of parental and/or reproductive rights.

ETA: I just see this issue as part of a long cultural continuum of treating pregnant women like livestock: "We will 'let' you eat ice chips during labor." "Get this cesarean, or I'm calling a judge." "Get this vaccine or you lose your job."

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#14 of 82 Old 04-24-2015, 10:11 AM
 
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I don't think the categories have changed. I already explained why I think pregnant women should be treated like other adults when it comes to their rights.
Rights?

Young vs UPS

I see a challenge for the future when any legislation involves a pregnant woman.
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#15 of 82 Old 04-24-2015, 11:08 AM
 
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Assuming your views on the mandate as a whole are either in favor or opposed, then why would pregnant women be subject to some different rules when it comes to those vaccines which are recommended for them? (Indeed, recommended for pregnant women as a higher priority group for flu vaccination)

Pregnant women should be treated exactly the same as any other adult for recommended vaccines, and should clearly have a medical exemption for those vaccines for which there is a contraindication during pregnancy.
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I don't think the categories have changed. I already explained why I think pregnant women should be treated like other adults when it comes to their rights.
Again, the topic was about rights. Do pregnant women have the same rights or different rights than others when it comes to vaccination?

I say, they have the same rights. I'm waiting for an argument as to why they do not. Why they have more or less rights when it comes to vaccination according to indvidual recommendations.

Apparently rather than answering with such an argument, @Turquesa would rather assume that I'm withholding my views because of MDC UA restrictions. That is just petty. There is nothing holding me back from stating my opinion. I'd rather get banned from this forum than keep silent if I thought mandatory vaccination for everyone, all the time, was a good idea. Frankly, that's not my position and that's why you haven't heard me express it. Not because some fear of MDC rules.

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I say, they have the same rights. I'm waiting for an argument as to why they do not. Why they have more or less rights when it comes to vaccination according to indvidual recommendations.
You mentioned above that you already provided your answer as to why you believe pregnant women should have the same rights as everyone else and if vaccines are required for work then they should be required for pregnant women as well, but I apologize if I am missing your explanation. I went back twice and couldn't find an actual explanation as to why you feel pregnant women should have the same rights.
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You mentioned above that you already provided your answer as to why you believe pregnant women should have the same rights as everyone else and if vaccines are required for work then they should be required for pregnant women as well, but I apologize if I am missing your explanation. I went back twice and couldn't find an actual explanation as to why you feel pregnant women should have the same rights.
What kind of explanation are you looking for?
I'm going off of the basic idea that pregnant women are adults. That if any adult is being required to follow vaccine recommendations that are appropriate for them as part of an employment arrangement, then the same should apply to pregnant women.

I'm not sure what else you want.

Last edited by ss834; 04-24-2015 at 12:25 PM. Reason: removed accidental double quote
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Why are they pushed into vaccines when they clearly don't want them, especially when they are pregnant?
What I am wondering is why you add "especially when they are pregnant"?

Does a pregnant women have more rights over her body than any other person? If some other person said they had some history of health problems that are not currently linked to vaccines, and say that they want to refuse the vaccine based on that history, do they have less of a right to go against the recommendation?
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This pregnant nurse was fired back in '13 for refusing the flu shot, considering she has had miscarriages before and due to the limited studies. Can you blame her? Why can't individuals weigh the risks vs. benefits themselves? Why are they pushed into vaccines when they clearly don't want them, especially when they are pregnant?

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A pregnant nurse tells CNN she was fired from her job after she refused to get a flu shot for fear of miscarrying. "I'm a healthy person. I take care of my body. For me, the potential risk was not worth it," Dreonna Breton told CNN Sunday. "I'm not gonna be the one percent of people that has a problem."
http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/29/health...ccine-refusal/


I see there are registries and post-licensure studies, but where is the proof that the flu vaccine or Tdap are safe in pregnant women? Especially the flu vaccine, which is extremely ineffective, no matter which way you spin it. Is the risk REALLY worth the benefit to pregnant women? The Tdap, another one. Is the risk REALLY worth the benefit?Aside from the fact that it's a Category C, which means:

Quote:
Animal reproduction studies have shown an adverse effect on the fetus and there are no adequate and well-controlled studies in humans, but potential benefits may warrant use of the drug in pregnant women despite potential risks.
Category C doesn't sound so safe, does it? I sure as heck wouldn't be comfortable submitting myself to a Category C drug, no matter what it is. Many SSRIs also fall under Category C. Researchers are raising questions regarding the safety of these drugs during pregnancy and are finding increased risk of birth defects when taken during pregnancy. Why are vaccines treated differently and get the gold star?
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Generally speaking where I live: a pregnant women should be excused from duties that are deemed dangerous to fetuses.

If a woman works with toxic chemicals, she will be on desk duty or on paid leave if there is no appropriate alternative for the duration of the pregnancy. Her job will be protected and she cannot loose her job for failure to work in an environment that is harmful to her baby.

Vaccines are still listed as Class C medication, IIRC. Pregnant women should be able to refuse them without losing their job.

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#21 of 82 Old 04-24-2015, 12:28 PM
 
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Category C doesn't sound so safe, does it? I sure as heck wouldn't be comfortable submitting myself to a Category C drug, no matter what it is. Many SSRIs also fall under Category C. Researchers are raising questions regarding the safety of these drugs during pregnancy and are finding increased risk of birth defects when taken during pregnancy. Why are vaccines treated differently and get the gold star?
Cross-posted. Great minds and all that.....
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#22 of 82 Old 04-24-2015, 12:29 PM
 
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What I am wondering is why you add "especially when they are pregnant"?

Does a pregnant women have more rights over her body than any other person? If some other person said they had some history of health problems that are not currently linked to vaccines, and say that they want to refuse the vaccine based on that history, do they have less of a right to go against the recommendation?
I believe in everyone having equal rights to denying vaccination if they so chose, and to getting vaccination if they chose. I believe everyone has the right to choose what they put into their body. Nobody else should have that power, except for the individual. With that said, this thread is referring to pregnant women, which is why I worded it that way. The lack of studies alone on pregnant women (as well as pregnancy categories as I have been mentioning) should be enough to allow these women to refuse the vaccines without getting fired if they so choose. Who has the right to tell them that the benefits outweigh the risks when there clearly has not been enough done to prove that, nothing at all really.
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#23 of 82 Old 04-24-2015, 12:36 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Again, the topic was about rights. Do pregnant women have the same rights or different rights than others when it comes to vaccination?

I say, they have the same rights. I'm waiting for an argument as to why they do not. Why they have more or less rights when it comes to vaccination according to indvidual recommendations.
Because fetuses cannot spread flu or pertussis to others. Because fetuses aren't playing in soil and needing a tetanus shot. Because some of us demand a higher standard of evidence before we are forced into a highly ineffective, Class-C medical intervention that vaguely "appears to be safe." Those are your arguments as to why pregnant women should be treated differently.

On the other hand, everyone should be treated the same way in that we should all, pregnant or not, have a right to informed consent and informed refusal. But yes, pregnant women are physiologically different and therefore have a different set of medical considerations.

I'm not sure why the rest of your post got so personal, but I was simply pointing out that my intent was not to get you in trouble with admin. If that's not a concern to you, then ignore it.
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Again, the topic was about rights. Do pregnant women have the same rights or different rights than others when it comes to vaccination?
Actually, pregnant women do have different rights than the regular population in terms of employment.

My sister was placed on paid leave during her pregnancy because her work environment at the time was deemed too risky for pregnant women. Alternative work would have been acceptable as well - but they did not have any. Her job was protected and she returned post baby. Non-pregnant did not get paid leave.

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I'm not sure why the rest of your post got so personal, but I was simply pointing out that my intent was not to get you in trouble with admin. If that's not a concern to you, then ignore it.
Maybe because you're assuming my position is one that would get me in trouble with an admin... and thanks for so condescendingly protecting me from that.


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nm - darn thing won't delete

There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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Actually, pregnant women do have different rights than the regular population in terms of employment.

My sister was placed on paid leave during her pregnancy because her work environment at the time was deemed too risky for pregnant women. Alternative work would have been acceptable as well - but they did not have any. Her job was protected and she returned post baby. Non-pregnant did not get paid leave.
But people with other medical conditions, pregnant or no, do have rights to certain accommodations. That's what the whole UPS case that @serenbat referred to is about, if I'm thinking of the same case. It's about pregnant women having the same rights as anyone else to request workplace accommodations.

The recommendations for flu shot are based on pregnant women being a high risk of flu complications, and Tdap is about newborns being at high risk for death and complications for pertussis. Those risks are known. Both pregnancy categories B/C defer to a risk assessment that would favor vaccination.

The classification of vaccines at this time do not take into account epidemiological studies, presumably because they were done by groups other than the manufacturers and the manufacturers are not interested in taking responsibility for those results at this time. But that's just my guess.
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I think there is a bit of talking circles:

ss834 - do you think pregnant nurses should lose their jobs if they refuse DTaP and flu vaccines?

There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#29 of 82 Old 04-24-2015, 12:59 PM
 
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Well, whatever. I thought her statement was presumptive and I still think it was. If her intentions were different, then I misunderstood them. My bad.
You are too fast on the keyboard, lol. I deleted it - not because I have changed my mind, but because getting into a nasty-fest does not seem productive.
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#30 of 82 Old 04-24-2015, 01:16 PM
 
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They have been tested on pregnant women in post-licensure studies. We've discussed some of those studies here. The package inserts by the manufacturers have not been updated to reflect these data (they weren't manufacturer studies), but the companies operate safety registries for pregnant women and are required to report if any safety signals show up.
Interesting..no other drugs are allowed to be tested on pregnant women, due to ethical issues. Vaccines? Different story.

Who wants to sign up to see if there are any "safety signals" when pregnant? Any of you mama's here? I'm not willing, and it's absolutely the most preposterous idea to assume that any pregnant women should unwillingly volunteer for that position to maintain her employment.
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Most users ever online was 449,755, 06-25-2014 at 12:21 PM.