A thread just for Deborah! - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 50 Old 07-27-2015, 08:10 PM - Thread Starter
 
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A thread just for Deborah!

Because she has been incredibly patient and I took longer to respond than I should have

Here's her question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deborah View Post
What I think is that the independent studies by different researchers over years and continents have actually looked at a very narrow bit of vaccine science. Whether vaccines can produce antibodies. Whether these antibodies can, sometimes, prevent disease. Whether vaccines cause immediate and extremely severe damage in lots and lots of people.

People are taking this rather sadly limited body of work and using it to claim that:

The current US recommended schedule is safe for most babies.

That vaccines have no connection with auto-immune diseases.

That it is safe to vaccinate someone who is ill.

That it is safe to vaccinate someone who is currently on antibiotics or who was recently on antibiotics.

That the HPV vaccines have a good safety record and that they will prevent cancer.



In other words, y'all are mixing up the actual science, which is quite limited in many areas, with the "prevailing wisdom" on vaccines, which is a lot sloppier than the actual science both on vaccines and on a lot of other medical practices (cord clamping, for example).

From our discussion to date, it is clear that doctors will happily do all sorts of dangerous or stupid or ineffective stuff because it is the "PREVAILING WISDOM". But this can't include vaccines because there is all that SCIENCE to support vaccines.

Does the science actually support what is currently going on with vaccines? Do we have the studies to tell us that those Danish doctors who say that 1 in 500 girls who received the HPV vaccine are ill, have it wrong? Do those studies actually look at what they should have looked at? Or do they have some major gaps and shortcomings?
I'm going to go point to on the bolded

The current US recommended schedule is safe for most babies.

I believe it is, and I believe there are good studies to support that.

http://iom.nationalacademies.org/Rep...nd-Safety.aspx

That vaccines have no connection with auto-immune diseases.

I think the jury is largely still out on this one. We know that Guillain-Barre has been associated with certain flu vaccines, so it would be irresponsible to claim that autoimmune reactions never happen. However it seems so far that reactions are very rare and that again, it may be something triggered in a small subset of people who would likely have developed the disease at some point anyway. Here's an article that says it can not be definitively ruled out, and the challenges of studying this.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15196997

That it is safe to vaccinate someone who is ill.

It is common practice not to vaccinate someone who is moderately or severely ill, and is also the CDC's recommendation. Evidence has proven there are more reactions to vaccines if the patient is already fighting an illness. Because of this, I think that this recommendation should be clarified (i.e. persons with fevers over XYZ should not be vaccinated) and that some of the fervor over needing to vaccinate on schedule has muddied the common sense on this one. I *personally* would not vaccinate a child who had an elevated temperature at all, and honestly think this should be the policy set at the CDC level. Yes, I'm sure (and studies have shown) it's safe to give vaccines when a child is mildly ill, but I dislike the vague terminology...who says what is mild?

That it is safe to vaccinate someone who is currently on antibiotics or who was recently on antibiotics.

I don't know enough about this to have a well-informed opinion. I do know it's very hard to anticipate and do extensive studies on every possible drug reaction for any new drug or vaccination. For instance...would they have to do a study with each individual vaccine against each individual antibiotic? This is not a standard we hold most medications up to so I'm not sure it's a fair standard to hold vaccines up to. But anyway, as I said, don't know much about this so my opinion is not well informed. Well except you KNOW I think antibiotics are prescribed way too often. Let's just do more vaccines and less antibiotics (Yes, that's tongue in cheek lol)

That the HPV vaccines have a good safety record and that they will prevent cancer.

I believe they do and they do. Here's a good (large) study

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3034689/

and a meta-anaylsis

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0054155/


Anyway, just wanted to answer your questions @Deborah ! I appreciate your time and enjoy "talking" to you on the boards
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#2 of 50 Old 07-27-2015, 08:17 PM
 
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Thanks for the thoughtful response.

I'll get back to you tomorrow, if time permits. I've got a busy day planned. And I'm sure Kathymuggle and Turquesa and others may also have thoughts.

Most of my impatience was not directed at you by the way.

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#3 of 50 Old 07-28-2015, 05:06 AM
 
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#4 of 50 Old 07-28-2015, 05:12 AM
 
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Quote:
That the HPV vaccines have a good safety record and that they will prevent cancer.

I believe they do and they do. Here's a good (large) study

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3034689/
Quote:
The risk of serious adverse events (RR: 1.00, 0.91-1.09) or vaccine-related serious adverse events (RR: 1.82; 0.79-4.20) did not differ significantly between vaccine and control groups.
The studies I've seen used the vaccine adjuvant in the placebo. That doesn't make for a real control group in my opinion and is a major red flag.

Out in the real world, the rate of reports of adverse events is high. Japan, Denmark, Ireland, the UK.

Both articles are a meta-analysis.
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#5 of 50 Old 07-28-2015, 05:14 AM
 
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On the first one, alas, the government of England is on the hook for all the damage from the swine flu vaccine and narcolepsy. GSK is smart. Not trustworthy.

The second link gives correct info on the source of the funds. Taxpayers.

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#6 of 50 Old 07-28-2015, 05:19 AM
 
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See post #12 in this thread What is the evidence of safety for HPV vaccines? for an example of one way in which reactions are minimized or eliminated. Poor comfort if your kid turns out to be ill following the vaccination.

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#7 of 50 Old 07-28-2015, 06:27 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sortacrispy View Post

That the HPV vaccines have a good safety record and that they will prevent cancer.

I believe they do and they do. Here's a good (large) study

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3034689/

and a meta-anaylsis

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0054155/

I will leave safety alone at this point (I think others know far more!) but I will touch on efficacy.

The first study you cite only looked at persistent HPV of certain strains for 6 months.

I dug up the full text of the second study, and while it is not industry funded, the four studies it looked at were. Moreover, it also only looked at short term HPV strains (although it did go loner than 6 months - more like 36 on average, but still nowhere near long enough to determine if it will reduce cancer rates) as it concedes:

"The long-term efficacy of the vaccine to prevent
cervical cancer has not yet been proven.
Therefore, only long-term follow-up of cohorts of
vaccinated patients will show vaccine actual efficacy in prevention in the future."

http://www.scielo.org.ar/pdf/aap/v110n6/v110n6a05.pdf

I will add that while I said i would leave safety alone, there were a few red flags in the second study, for which I had the full text:

1. They only studied women aged 15-25, yet the vaccine is given to children as young as 9.
2. They only studied women
3. They excluded those with previous abnormal pap smears and one study excluded those with auto-immune issues. Once again, are women with abnormal pap smears or auto-immune issues cautioned that safety data might be lacking on HPV for them?









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#8 of 50 Old 07-28-2015, 06:43 AM
 
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@sortacrispy here is what your fist link says...
"Existing mechanisms to detect safety signals — including three major surveillance systems of FDA-approved products maintained by the CDC and a supplemental vaccine safety monitoring initiative by the FDA—provide further confidence that the current childhood immunization schedule is safe.
Despite the reassuring available evidence, the committee calls for continued study of the immunization schedule using existing data systems.
Answering research questions of the most importance to stakeholders could be done through a variety of methods. The committee does not endorse conducting a new randomized controlled clinical trial that would compare the health outcomes of unvaccinated children with their fully immunized peers.
- See more at: http://iom.nationalacademies.org/Reports/2013/The-Childhood-Immunization-Schedule-and-Safety/Report-Brief011613.aspx?page=2#sthash.TOYPCiCe.dpuf"

Looking at the failed reporting system, we know there are huge numbers of vaccine reactions and death.
IOM calls for more studies...however it says studies should not be done on unvax vs vax children, I wonder why??
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#9 of 50 Old 07-28-2015, 03:06 PM
 
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From the Institute of Medicine Report in your OP
Quote:
Vaccines are among the most safe and effective public health interventions to prevent disease and death. Because of the success of vaccines, most Americans today have no first hand experience with such devastating illnesses as polio or diphtheria.
I quoted this because it is a perfect example of what we have been calling the "prevailing wisdom" as opposed to actual science on vaccines.

I notice that you didn't dispute my summary of the actual content of the "big pile of science" on the topic of vaccines, nor did you argue (thank you), that the science actually covers some of the valid concerns of parents who saw their children suffer actual vaccine reactions which were then ignored, denied or called coincidence.

Fact: The CDC recommends vaccinating babies and children who are sick. Until someone does a survey of providers, I'm going to assume that at least some doctors and nurses follow the CDC recommendations. There is also a push to encourage this behavior. http://www.foxnews.com/health/2013/0...accine-delays/ from 2013
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Last edited by Deborah; 07-29-2015 at 06:18 AM. Reason: correcting something weird in the quote
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#10 of 50 Old 07-28-2015, 03:07 PM
 
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Here is the actual study abstract about sick visits and vaccines http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23733803

This one is from 1996 and is already pushing shots for sick babies. To keep them on schedule. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8623692
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#11 of 50 Old 07-28-2015, 03:10 PM
 
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With the continued expansion of the early childhood vaccine schedule and no research that I've come across on any problems from vaxing sick kids AND with the goals that the CDC keeps setting for very high vaccination rates for toddlers (and everyone else who is still breathing), I don't think there is much hope that your reasoned attitude on vaxing sick kids will become the prevailing wisdom. Too much pressure in the other direction.
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#12 of 50 Old 07-28-2015, 03:48 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EMRguy View Post
@sortacrispy here is what your fist link says...
"Existing mechanisms to detect safety signals — including three major surveillance systems of FDA-approved products maintained by the CDC and a supplemental vaccine safety monitoring initiative by the FDA—provide further confidence that the current childhood immunization schedule is safe.
Despite the reassuring available evidence, the committee calls for continued study of the immunization schedule using existing data systems.
Answering research questions of the most importance to stakeholders could be done through a variety of methods. The committee does not endorse conducting a new randomized controlled clinical trial that would compare the health outcomes of unvaccinated children with their fully immunized peers.
- See more at: http://iom.nationalacademies.org/Reports/2013/The-Childhood-Immunization-Schedule-and-Safety/Report-Brief011613.aspx?page=2#sthash.TOYPCiCe.dpuf"

Looking at the failed reporting system, we know there are huge numbers of vaccine reactions and death.
IOM calls for more studies...however it says studies should not be done on unvax vs vax children, I wonder why??
I believe because vaccines are considered both a personal and community necessity, it would be considered unethical to ask people not to vaccinate who otherwise might have been inclined to. Once you just study data of people who have, of their own volition, chosen not to vaccinate, you confound your data, as other circumstances have influenced that decision.

Older people have a higher risk of autism in their children. People who are wealthier tend to be less likely to vaccinate. Older people tend to have more wealth than younger people.

So if you are looking at that data, you may say hey...kids who are vaccinated are LESS likely to be autistic. Really, it's that they're more likely to have younger parents, does that make sense? In a good study you need to take two people of similar ages, ethnic history, wealth etc and then make one a control and one get the vaccine. However, doing this would be unethical, so we have to try to do the best we can to prune extraneous data.
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#13 of 50 Old 07-28-2015, 03:54 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deborah View Post
With the continued expansion of the early childhood vaccine schedule and no research that I've come across on any problems from vaxing sick kids AND with the goals that the CDC keeps setting for very high vaccination rates for toddlers (and everyone else who is still breathing), I don't think there is much hope that your reasoned attitude on vaxing sick kids will become the prevailing wisdom. Too much pressure in the other direction.
I agree

I hate the term "mildly ill" and the recommendation, "moderately ill" people should not be vaccinated. If I am seeing really, really sick kids for example, maybe your kid who is actually pretty ill looks mildly ill to me? Her fever's 103 but it's just otitis media which is a mild condition, so let's vaccinate. No!

I do truly believe vaccines ARE safe for people who are mildly ill, but until we have CLEAR parameters on how to define what that means, I don't think kids who are ill at all should be vaccinated.
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Originally Posted by sortacrispy View Post
I agree

I hate the term "mildly ill" and the recommendation, "moderately ill" people should not be vaccinated. If I am seeing really, really sick kids for example, maybe your kid who is actually pretty ill looks mildly ill to me? Her fever's 103 but it's just otitis media which is a mild condition, so let's vaccinate. No!

I do truly believe vaccines ARE safe for people who are mildly ill, but until we have CLEAR parameters on how to define what that means, I don't think kids who are ill at all should be vaccinated.
Our clinic is now set up so that we have to go to a separate clinic for vaccines, even if it's a routine check up type thing! I like it because that means that there's no pressure to do anything "right then". If the kids are sick when we had planned to go in, we just don't go and try again when they're feeling better. Even if it's just a runny nose I always wait until they're 100% again.
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Any time scientists disagree, it's because we have insufficient data. Then we can agree on what kind of data to get; we get the data; and the data solves the problem. Either I'm right, or you're right, or we're both wrong. And we move on. That kind of conflict resolution does not exist in politics or religion.

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#15 of 50 Old 07-28-2015, 06:01 PM
 
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on the problem of auto-immune diseases and vaccination

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24607449
Quote:
...various systemic reactions associated with immune stimulation will be addressed, including: APR, hypersensitivity, induction or worsening of autoimmune diseases...
This one acknowledges a problem, but tries to let the vaccines off the hook with some rather questionable logic. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24514081
Quote:
Overall, the risk of a demyelinating CNS disease following vaccination, although non-negligible, is relatively low. The risk of onset or relapse of CNS demyelination following infections against which the vaccines are aimed to protect, is substantially higher and the benefits of vaccinations surpass the potential risks of CNS inflammation.
this ignores the fact that before a person is at risk from the disease they have to actually catch it. In a good many cases of vaccination, the actual risk of catching the disease is very low (and not always due to herd immunity) and therefore the risk from the vaccine is considerably higher than they are admitting. Another excellent example of that supposed "wisdom" about vaccines.
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#16 of 50 Old 07-28-2015, 06:08 PM
 
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Alas, no abstract. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22360731

which leads me to this one: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=24763539

an admitted auto-immune disease and one which is well-known to be connected to vaccines.
Quote:
Similarly, vaccines such as MMR may prompt ITP (IRR 5.48, 1.61-18.64, p < 0.006).
Sorry, but the connection between vaccination and auto-immune disease is not imaginary at all.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17561085

unless animals and human beings are unrelated (whoops, there goes evolution), the fact that auto-immune diseases in animals following vaccination are well documented seems to undermine claims that similar problems haven't been seen in human beings. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17561085
Quote:
The range of reported adverse reactions in neonates is broad, and includes: suspected lack of efficacy, mild non-specific and transient illness post-vaccination, and the development of hypersensitivity or autoimmune reactions
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#17 of 50 Old 07-28-2015, 06:11 PM
 
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and for balance, here is one auto-immune condition where there was no connection to vaccinations http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16955802
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This one also defends vaccines, but I find it interesting that there is a definite attempt to make animal vaccines safer. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16701964
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11513269
Quote:
... to the under-reporting of suspected adverse drug reactions.
but of course THAT never happens with human products including vaccines...

Back when Schoenfeld was just beginning to look into vaccines and auto-immune problems. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10648110

There seems to be plenty of data connecting auto-immune problems and vaccines.

Enough that the parental reports of problems following vaccination for children in families with a history of auto-immune disease should be studied. But I won't hold my breath.
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I can't count how many time I have posted the Perdue/Hayward study on vaccinated vs non-vaccinated Great Danes, EVERY SINGLE VACCINATED DOG HAD AUTOANTIBODIES THE NON-VACCINATED DID NOT. Sorry for shouting.

I used to have the actual study thanks to the wayback maching, but alas it is no longer found there either.

Quote:
As in two previous studies we conducted, we confirmed that vaccinated dogs when compared with non-vaccinated dogs have a higher concentration of antibodies in their serum directed against bovine proteins such as thyroglobulin and fibronectin. These antibodies are probably produced in response to contaminants from fetal calf serum commonly used to make canine vaccines. These anti-bovine antibodies probably then cross-react with a dog’s own thyroglobulin and fibronectin, resulting in detectable concentrations of autoantibodies in their serum. It would be difficult to design a study in pet dogs to prove this process of cross-reaction between bovine and canine proteins actually causes clinical signs of autoimmune disease in vaccinated dogs. There were too many differences between the vaccinated and unvaccinated Great Danes in the present study to further explore the clinical consequences of vaccine-related auto-antibodies produced against fibronectin or thyroglobulin.
http://www.omegadanes.com/purdue_uni...n_vaccines.htm


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#21 of 50 Old 07-28-2015, 06:27 PM
 
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fetal bovine serum is used in human vaccines.
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#22 of 50 Old 07-28-2015, 08:55 PM - Thread Starter
 
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It's crucial to note though that autoantibodies are not necessarily an abnormal finding, and in fact one might well expect them to be elevated after vaccination. Also I am not sure, even if the canines have more autoantibodies if A.) Those would cause anti-inflammatory diseases and B.) Whether humans would experience the same reaction to the same extent after being introduced to the serum.

Here's something written actually by the same Dr. Schoenfeld who wrote the textbook about autoimmunity and vaccines,

Autoantibodies, a hallmark of autoimmunity, are not per se a sign of disease and can be present in healthy people. Transient appearance of autoantibodies has been observed in connection with several environmental triggers, including vaccinations. One of the most inducible antibodies following vaccination is antiphospholipid antibody. There is no firm evidence to date that the induction of autoantibodies after vaccination has any clinical consequence in apparently healthy people and in patients with autoimmune diseases. However, it is possible that certain people with genetic predisposition could develop autoantibodies and autoimmune adverse event after vaccinations. In most cases, these will be transient. The long-term clinical consequence of autoantibodies induced by vaccinations is not yet known. Due to several environmental factors that influence the immune system and the impact of aging on the immune system, this issue will remain intriguing into the future.

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#23 of 50 Old 07-28-2015, 09:02 PM
 
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From the link above (discussing an earlier study on vacccinated vs non-vaccinated Beagles):

Quote:
Their study was based on the increasing concern among veterinarians and breeders that current vaccination protocols adversely affect the health of dogs. This concern has largely been based on anecdotal and circumstantial evidence. They studied the effects of routinely used vaccination protocol on the immune and endocrine systems of Beagles.
One control group was not vaccinated and the other group was vaccinated with a commercial multivalent vaccine at 8, 10, 12, 16, and 20 weeks of age and with a rabies vaccine at 16 weeks of age.

A definition of autoimmune disease is now necessary. In dogs as well as humans, the body sometimes forms antibodies against itself (self antigens) which can lead to diseases of the pancreas (diabetes), thyroid (Hashimoto's Disease), collagen and fibronectin (Scleroderma, Lupus),cardiolipin (Cardiomyopathy), etc. The body literally attacks itself to cause the autoimmune disease.

The vaccinated group developed significant levels of autoantibodies against: fibronectin, laminin, DNA, albumin, Cytochrome C, transferrin, cardiolipin, collagen. The responses varied among individual animals, probably reflecting genetic differences. The clinical significance of those autoantibodies remains to be determined, but speculation must be that something in the vaccines is one of the etiologies (in the genetically susceptible dog) of such diseases as Cardiomyopathy, Lupus Erythematosus, Glomerulonephritis, etc.


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#24 of 50 Old 07-28-2015, 09:26 PM - Thread Starter
 
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The vaccinated group developed significant levels of autoantibodies against: fibronectin, laminin, DNA, albumin, Cytochrome C, transferrin, cardiolipin, collagen. The responses varied among individual animals, probably reflecting genetic differences. The clinical significance of those autoantibodies remains to be determined, but speculation must be that something in the vaccines is one of the etiologies (in the genetically susceptible dog) of such diseases as Cardiomyopathy, Lupus Erythematosus, Glomerulonephritis, etc.
Again though, the presence of these autoantibodies is to be expected to some extent. The autoantibodies alone do not signify pathogenesis.

I am searching and searching to see if there have been further studies which followed these dogs with the higher autoantibodies after vaccination to see if they developed autoimmune disorders down the road but so far I am only finding reference to this article.
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#25 of 50 Old 07-29-2015, 04:07 AM
 
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Again though, the presence of these autoantibodies is to be expected to some extent. The autoantibodies alone do not signify pathogenesis.

I am searching and searching to see if there have been further studies which followed these dogs with the higher autoantibodies after vaccination to see if they developed autoimmune disorders down the road but so far I am only finding reference to this article.
I don't know what you are hoping to find in your searching.


BUT there is info on Dane sites and they seem to end with - (See articles: Grief and Loss - Starting Over and Saying Good-bye) as these dogs die within a very short period of time (days)

http://www.greatdanelady.com/article...reat_danes.htm - there are other sites out there as well

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#26 of 50 Old 07-29-2015, 04:15 AM
 
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IMO- I'm sure the next new mantra will be that no only is autism not increasing, autoimmune diseases are not either - all is just BETTER diagnoses! See, no problem! No connections either!

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#27 of 50 Old 07-29-2015, 04:37 AM
 
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@sortacrispy the various articles I found on auto-immune disease following vaccination go well beyond just the appearance of autoantibodies and on into actual diagnoses of actual auto-immune disease.

Please engage with the actual data presented, thanks.

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#28 of 50 Old 07-29-2015, 06:11 AM - Thread Starter
 
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@sortacrispy the various articles I found on auto-immune disease following vaccination go well beyond just the appearance of autoantibodies and on into actual diagnoses of actual auto-immune disease.

Please engage with the actual data presented, thanks.
Sorry Deborah, can you link me to use that one(s) you're referring to? I see that doctor Schoenfeld was looking into it and theorized auto antibodies could cause disorders, but the most recent post from him (his textbook just published) seems to point to the fact that he still doesn't know if there's a correlation. And I see the one about the puppy, but again that's not an exhaustive study. But I may have missed a link you shared 😊
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#29 of 50 Old 07-29-2015, 06:16 AM
 
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Sorry Deborah, can you link me to use that one(s) you're referring to? I see that doctor Schoenfeld was looking into it and theorized auto antibodies could cause disorders, but the most recent post from him (his textbook just published) seems to point to the fact that he still doesn't know if there's a correlation. And I see the one about the puppy, but again that's not an exhaustive study. But I may have missed a link you shared 😊
The links are in #15 and #16 . ITP is an auto-immune disease and the link to MMR is acknowledged. G-B is also an auto-immune disease which has been linked to various vaccines.

That will do for starters.

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#30 of 50 Old 07-29-2015, 06:22 AM
 
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@sortacrispy wrote
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So if you are looking at that data, you may say hey...kids who are vaccinated are LESS likely to be autistic. Really, it's that they're more likely to have younger parents, does that make sense? In a good study you need to take two people of similar ages, ethnic history, wealth etc and then make one a control and one get the vaccine. However, doing this would be unethical, so we have to try to do the best we can to prune extraneous data.
There have been successful studies of behaviors where random selection was not an option. Home birth, for example. Furthermore, most of the vaccine studies getting vaccines off the hook are epidemiological and do not actually involve any sort of randomization, although most of them allow some really nifty manipulation of the data.

I call double standard and excuses excuses excuses

Right here on mothering we could find enough parents who are crispy and vaccinate to do a nice comparative study...
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