"Science Is No Excuse For Skipping Flu Shots" - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 51 Old 11-30-2015, 09:04 PM - Thread Starter
 
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"Science Is No Excuse For Skipping Flu Shots"

Well, at least that's what this article seems to be saying: http://www.wbur.org/commonhealth/201...ine-no-excuses

When confronted with science, journalists have a fundamental obligation to respond, in kind, with science---not with authoritarian insistence that we should "still get vaccinated," not with preachy native advertising for an indemnified pharmaceutical product, and certainly not by dismissing scientific evidence as "excuses."

The double-standard is annoying. Anyone who's "pro-science" needs to be considering science that they don't personally like.

“It is simply no longer possible to believe much of the clinical research that is published, or to rely on the judgment of trusted physicians or authoritative medical guidelines.” - Marcia Angell, M.D., former NEJM Editor
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#2 of 51 Old 12-01-2015, 05:08 AM
 
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The CDC says continue to get "your" flu shot. So even though there is some new science out there, if the CDC says do it, then do it.

It is part of the default setting. Once something has been declared as "right", then the science has to be overwhelming to change the setting.

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#3 of 51 Old 12-01-2015, 06:53 AM
 
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Where medical people have a choice they aren't jumping at the flu shot.

Just came across this report that gives the percentages of health care workers by facility that received the flu shot
http://www.albertahealthservices.ca/...ity-report.pdf
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#4 of 51 Old 12-01-2015, 08:44 AM
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Where medical people have a choice they aren't jumping at the flu shot.

Just came across this report that gives the percentages of health care workers by facility that received the flu shot
http://www.albertahealthservices.ca/...ity-report.pdf
Those in the know, know! SHOCKING!!!
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#5 of 51 Old 12-01-2015, 08:48 AM
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The double-standard is annoying. Anyone who's "pro-science" needs to be considering science that they don't personally like.
On so many levels!!

"granted" they know!! they "apply"!!! Not to go OT but those in the medical field also know their rights as workers too!! It's really ironic on so many levels! With flu shots, the number of nurses groups is growing on this issue, backed up by their unions (aka - workers rights and all the good stuff!)!!
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#6 of 51 Old 12-01-2015, 09:19 AM
 
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So laughable. I saw Dorit Reiss was in the comment section. Really pisses me off. It really is a war, but articles like this show that something is happening. People are listening, questioning- even if they won't openly admit it.

"The soul is its own source of unfolding" - Heraclitus


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#7 of 51 Old 12-01-2015, 10:23 AM
 
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So laughable. I saw Dorit Reiss was in the comment section. Really pisses me off. It really is a war, but articles like this show that something is happening. People are listening, questioning- even if they won't openly admit it.
One would think she would at least check her own grammar usage before posting --

from her comment in the article
Quote:
It's a disease that's miserable at best and fatal at worse.
It's a disease that's miserable at best, and fatal at WORST. That is the correct grammar for that phrase.

Another option is, "It's a disease that's miserable at best, but could be much worse."
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And the bottom line, he said, is that “the return may diminish but there’s always a benefit to getting vaccinated.”
I may be mistaken, but didn't one of the recent studies, Canadian I believe, indicate a -15% effectiveness if people received the flu shot two years in a row. Where's the benefit in that?
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#9 of 51 Old 12-01-2015, 06:23 PM
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I may be mistaken, but didn't one of the recent studies, Canadian I believe, indicate a -15% effectiveness if people received the flu shot two years in a row. Where's the benefit in that?
You didn't get the talking points, oh, I mean the info you are to believe?

Something, ANYTHING is better vs nothing! I hear this all the time on here and other places with the FLU vaccine and the others too! It's a standard line they are pushing! ANYTHING!

15%, on statins, old, no worries, shoot up, that risk is never there vs the "benefit" of hitting the correct stain........ and if you don't, you get flu-lite! Like shingles-lite! WH-lite, measles-lite, etc! OR maybe you get really lucky for that tiny % of protection & correct strain match and also get - Shoulder Injury Related to Vaccine Administration (SIRVA)! it's a win-win!
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#10 of 51 Old 12-01-2015, 09:30 PM
 
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More and more I am convinced that scientific truths have nothing to do with why we inject ourselves with things and shoot viles up our noses. It's all about dogma and profit.

OK, emmy526, I noticed the grammatical faux pas as well so, since you went there, I can't resist saying, "so glad Van Der Beek is at least getting some modeling work", Yuk, yuk, yuk. I know, I know, so simplistically wrong, but I can't resist.
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#11 of 51 Old 12-01-2015, 10:22 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I may be mistaken, but didn't one of the recent studies, Canadian I believe, indicate a -15% effectiveness if people received the flu shot two years in a row. Where's the benefit in that?
That's no excuse. Get your flu shot. And stop confusing me with science.

“It is simply no longer possible to believe much of the clinical research that is published, or to rely on the judgment of trusted physicians or authoritative medical guidelines.” - Marcia Angell, M.D., former NEJM Editor
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#12 of 51 Old 12-02-2015, 06:01 AM
 
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Let's look at a few quotes within the article:

Quote:
“Just do it now, would be my advice,” said Dr. Larry Madoff, director of epidemiology and immunization at the Massachusetts Department of Public Health. “There’s always a benefit to getting the flu vaccine.”
"Just do it now." This guy means business. He's so adament you'd think he was getting paid to say that He is involved in bacterial vaccine development so of course he'd support vaccination. Would you expect anything less?

"There's always a benefit to getting the flu vaccine." Did he seriously just say that? We'll get to that later.

Quote:
To begin with, listen to the author of the study, Dr. Edward Belongia, an epidemiologist at the Marshfield Clinic Research Foundation. The STAT story notes he still strongly encourages everyone to get their flu vaccine.

As Dr. Belongia told me about his study: “At this point there really aren’t any implications for the general public.” Rather, it’s a jumping-off point for future research. Furthermore, the study was presented as a poster in October at an infectious diseases conference; it hasn’t yet been through the rigorous peer review required for publication in a scientific journal.
To sum up, they haven't quite figured out the flu vaccine. The public are the guinea pigs until they do, but we already knew that.

Quote:
The study itself is intriguing — it concluded that children who had gotten a flu shot in two previous years, for a specific strain of the flu, were more likely to contract that flu than kids who had just been vaccinated for the first time
Could this have something to do with the many healthy young children and middle-aged individuals who are dying from complications of the flu, even though they were vaccinated against that very strain? Which brings us back to the first quote, "There's always a benefit to getting the flu vaccine."

Quote:
As one mother wrote on Facebook, “[It’s] very upsetting for someone like me, who has had their kids vaccinated every year.”
Now we're making some sense. Why is it that the public, just ordinary people, make more sense in their conclusions than these experts?

Quote:
Or as a spokesperson for the CDC said, “This is an interesting new finding and CDC will be looking into it further. For now, the CDC recommendation for vaccination remains unchanged
Of course they're "looking into it" and they still recommend the vaccine until then. Not much deters the CDC from recommending vaccines. For example, the focus is on Merck's trial for falsifying efficacy rates of the mumps portion for approval, yet the CDC still recommends that vaccine, even though the scientific process behind it may be totally corrupt. No wonder there are countless numbers of mumps' cases everywhere.

Quote:
One of Dr. Madoff’s potential explanations for why flu vaccines could have a diminishing effect is that antibodies to the flu you already have may bind to portions of the new flu vaccine and make them less active. Or it could be that if you’re already immune to one strain of the flu and get another vaccine, instead of creating new antibodies for the new strain of flu, the vaccine instead boosts the antibodies for the older strain.

But “these are theories,” he said, “and I don’t think we really fully understand what’s accounting for this phenomenon
They don't fully understand what accounts for this phenomenon. Do they "fully understand" what accounts for any and all pheromonena after vaccination? No, which is why vaccines can never be considered extensively studied enough prior to being rolled out. It's all a learning process, on the public.

Quote:
Research is under way on a “universal” flu vaccine that would work for all strains and so there would no longer be a need for annual shots
I can only imagine a rise in "coincidence disorder" after that one rolls out.

And a Dawson photo op...what a great way to end an article about marketing the flu vaccine, a vaccine in which they obviously haven't quite ironed out yet.
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#13 of 51 Old 12-02-2015, 10:13 AM
 
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One of Dr. Madoff’s potential explanations for why flu vaccines could have a diminishing effect is that antibodies to the flu you already have may bind to portions of the new flu vaccine and make them less active. Or it could be that if you’re already immune to one strain of the flu and get another vaccine, instead of creating new antibodies for the new strain of flu, the vaccine instead boosts the antibodies for the older
Reading the above quote from the article, the questions of flu vaccination and repeated vaccination rendering the flu vaccine ineffective or making symptoms worse in those individuals, the many healthy children and adults who are dying suddenly from influenza complications even after they were vaccinated against it, and what I recently read about the RSV vaccine and its challenges when tested years ago, such as enhanced disease against the natural wild virus after vaccination with the RSV vaccine, increased risk of pneumonia after vaccination, and even caused deaths during the trial, this lead me to think about enhanced disease after vaccination. Enhanced disease after vaccination is not well understood.

Are these healthy individuals really dying from the flu because the vaccine didn't work for them? OR is repeated vaccination, or vaccination itself, causing enhanced disease in those individuals who are exposed to the flu as well? Has it been known all along and just misunderstood by researchers? How much do they REALLY understand, especially when it comes to long-term. I'm starting to think the vaccine being considered ineffective is merely a distraction from the larger problems the vaccine has, although it's ineffective too. The flu vaccine appears to be interfering with the immune systems natural defenses, and screwing the system up entirely when exposed to the wild virus.

Review the quote above from the article and read this from 2013 regarding the swine flu and studies in pigs. It sounds similar to what they are saying now regarding human vaccination. However, they've known this all along from the RSV vaccine, that vaccination can cause enhanced disease and increased risk of pneumonia and respiratory distress.

Quote:
Medical Xpress)—A new study in the U.S. has shown that pigs vaccinated against one strain of influenza were worse off if subsequently infected by a related strain of the virus.
When the piglets were vaccinated they produced a wide range of antibodies to block the H1N2 virus, but these "cross-reactive" antibodies not only failed to provide protection against the second virus, H1N1, but appeared to actually help the H1N1 virus infiltrate lung tissue and cause more severe symptoms and respiratory system complications such as pneumonia and lung damage. The unvaccinated controls suffered milder pneumonia and fewer other complications. This effect is called Vaccine-Associated Enhanced Respiratory Disease.

The researchers found that the antibodies produced in response to H1N2 could not bind to a key region of the H1N1 virus and could therefore neither kill nor neutralize them and stop them binding to cells in the pigs' lungs, and in fact helped the new virus to fuse to lung cells and multiply more readily, through a process the scientists dubbed "fusion enhancing
http://medicalxpress.com/news/2013-0...ed-strain.html

Now here's what happened with the RSV vaccine (I posted the link on another thread). Vaccines have been noted to cause enhanced disease, and sounds like what may be happening with the flu vaccine where deaths are occuring from flu. They are different vaccines, yes, but the underlying theme seems to be the same, something interfering with the immune process after vaccination and then naturally exposed: It's quite obvious they don't know much about this, and they even admit it, yet they continue to push the vaccine with the utmost pressure.

Quote:
Unfortunately, penta increase-spacing 1>the formalin-inactivated, alum-precipitated RSV vaccine candidate developed at the NIH not only failed to protect young seronegative infants against RSV disease during the following RSV season, but the vaccine recipients actually experienced enhanced disease after wild-type RSV infection and had increased rates of pneumonia [12]. These findings, and the death in 1967 of 2 vaccine recipients who were naturally infected with RSV after receiving the inactivated vaccine, effectively slowed RSV vaccine development for decades. There has not been universal agreement with respect to the disease processes that led to enhanced disease in these vaccine recipients, further hampering RSV vaccine development

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#14 of 51 Old 12-02-2015, 11:18 AM
 
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Another factor leading to serious problems following flu:

increases in staph carriage, which can lead to lung infection during illness

staph carriage is going up due to use of Triclosan and is also one of the "benefits" of Prevnar.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=24713325 (Triclosan)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21695210 (Prevnar and I'm sure I can find lots more if this isn't enough)

There really is a lot of independent science around vaccines--but much of it casts doubt on the wonderfulness of the vaccines--so it doesn't actually build a case for a "vaccines are above criticism" consensus.
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#15 of 51 Old 12-02-2015, 12:30 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Dorit's grammar doesn't bother me. People can make good arguments even with bad grammar. It's her anti-science accolades for this article that are troubling.

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#16 of 51 Old 12-02-2015, 01:00 PM
 
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The article and comments are really a thinly veiled attack on the "ebil anti-vaxers" who will seize on any scrap of science to yell "don't vax". So the pro-vaxers, of course, are justified in yelling "vaccinate" over and over and over again. All about balance, ya know?

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#17 of 51 Old 12-09-2015, 11:22 AM - Thread Starter
 
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It's pretty amusing to watch the comments unfold. Even supporters of the article are conceding that direct-to-consumer advertising is bad. Um, this article is direct-to-consumer advertising.

“It is simply no longer possible to believe much of the clinical research that is published, or to rely on the judgment of trusted physicians or authoritative medical guidelines.” - Marcia Angell, M.D., former NEJM Editor
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#18 of 51 Old 12-09-2015, 11:48 AM
 
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It's pretty amusing to watch the comments unfold. Even supporters of the article are conceding that direct-to-consumer advertising is bad. Um, this article is direct-to-consumer advertising.
Product placement.

There was an article about the failure of paracetamol to reduce fever from flu...it ended by saying...this is another good reason to get your flu shot...seriously!

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#19 of 51 Old 12-09-2015, 02:14 PM
 
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And then there's this:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/pete-b...b_8537250.html

How flipping absurd can we get? Now we should not get the flu vaccine if we're sleepy?! Why don't these cowards just come out and say we should not get the flu vaccine full stop. Oh, i know, because they're flipping cowards!
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#20 of 51 Old 02-26-2017, 12:55 PM
 
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I'm bringing up this thread because it is relevant to two current topics

1) A vaccine increasing the death rate in infants. There seems to be some evidence that getting the flu vaccine two years in a row can increase the risk of a serious case of the flu. Another example of non-specific harms from vaccines?

2) I was discussing on another thread the concern about any science getting published which points to problems with vaccines. Which is a justification for not allowing the publication of articles that discuss problems with vaccines. Which sort of guarantees that problems with vaccines won't be discussed or dealt with and will continue forever. And all of this censorship is justified by talking about the evil anti-vaxers! It is their fault that we can't allow scientific discussion about problems with vaccines!

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#21 of 51 Old 02-27-2017, 12:55 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks for bumping this. It reminds me of this nonsense. http://www.vancouversun.com/health/E...552/story.html

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! Ignore the science against mandatory flu shots for health care workers. Just get your fool shot.
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#22 of 51 Old 02-27-2017, 01:10 PM
 
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Thanks for bumping this. It reminds me of this nonsense. http://www.vancouversun.com/health/E...552/story.html

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! Ignore the science against mandatory flu shots for health care workers. Just get your fool shot.
However, if you read past the middle of the article, they offer some useful advice going beyond the "fool" shot.
Quote:
But while important, flu shots are not the only means of preventing infection or transmission of the virus. And we should also not allow controversy over the shots to distract us from other effective means of flu prevention.
One of the most effective measures is also the simplest and the oldest: Much misery can be prevented simply by engaging in regular and vigorous hand washing. Other tried and true methods include keeping common areas of your home and workplace disinfected, and keeping your hands away from your face.
And if you are unlucky enough to become infected, there are several things you can do to lessen the agony as well as the chances that you will spread the virus.
Chief among these involves staying at home: We’ve recently heard much about the phenomenon known as “presenteeism” — the opposite of absenteeism whereby workers who feel ill nevertheless attend work, thereby risking exacerbating their illness and spreading it to others.
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#23 of 51 Old 02-27-2017, 02:09 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I am glad that the article included that advice, but that headline is downright insulting.

"Fool shot" was a bizarre, subconcious type-o, but I'm gonna run with it.
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#24 of 51 Old 02-27-2017, 02:13 PM
 
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I am glad that the article included that advice, but that headline is downright insulting.

"Fool shot" was a bizarre, subconcious type-o, but I'm gonna run with it.
If insults will raise the flu vaccine rates, then insults are what we'll get. These people are nothing if not dedicated...even fanatical!
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#25 of 51 Old 05-26-2017, 08:31 PM
 
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So all the experts support vaccines? And vaccine policy is based on expert science?

Read this thread and get back to me with some examples of how science supports the current influenza vaccine policies.

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#26 of 51 Old 05-26-2017, 11:32 PM
 
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So all the experts support vaccines? And vaccine policy is based on expert science?

Read this thread and get back to me with some examples of how science supports the current influenza vaccine policies.
False equivalency again between objecting to vaccination science and objecting to vaccination schedules.
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Originally Posted by sciencemum View Post
False equivalency again between objecting to vaccination science and objecting to vaccination schedules.
Ah. Please let the people who call anyone who skips or delays any vaccine at any time anti-vaccine know that it is okay to object to a vaccine schedule and then get back to me. Thanks!

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#28 of 51 Old 05-27-2017, 07:50 PM
 
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Read this thread and get back to me with some examples of how science supports the current influenza vaccine policies.
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Originally Posted by sciencemum View Post
False equivalency again between objecting to vaccination science and objecting to vaccination schedules.
You did not answer her. How does science support the current flu vaccine schedule? I am not sure it does. The evidence is pretty weak (no real change in influenza rate over time, no real change is hospital admissions or sick days, the contents of the flu vaccine are a "best guess" scenario, the flu shot might work better when not given yearly, etc, etc)
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#29 of 51 Old 05-28-2017, 05:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sciencemum View Post
False equivalency again between objecting to vaccination science and objecting to vaccination schedules.
Just occurred to me that the line between "vaccination science" and "vaccination schedules" is often blurred by those who promote vaccines. I'll find some examples.

Here we go https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...are-dangerous/

Quote:
Expert medical bodies including the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) urge parents to vaccinate their kids against 16 diseases. The CDC schedule for childhood vaccinations, which relies on recommendations from the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices and is endorsed by APP, is drawn up based on data detailing when the body’s immune system will mount the best response to the vaccine and, secondly, balanced against the need to protect kids at the earliest age possible. There is no scientific data suggesting a medical benefit from spacing out vaccines over a longer period than the official recommendations.
I'd say that is a pretty strong claim that the "schedule" equals "the science."

Another one http://www.immunizeforgood.com/resou...ccine-schedule

Quote:
Each year, the vaccine schedule is determined by an expert panel of top disease experts and doctors based on the most recent scientific data and is approved by the American Academy of Pediatrics, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, and the American Academy of Family Physicians. These experts determine each vaccine’s dose timing using two factors. First, it is scheduled for the age when the body’s immune system will respond best. Second, it is balanced with the need to provide protection to infants and children at the earliest possible age.
You may have heard about vaccine schedules created by individual doctors that delay or spread out vaccines. There is no scientific reason to believe that spreading out or delaying your child’s vaccines is safer than following the CDC-recommended schedule, and there is no science behind alternative schedules. However, not vaccinating on time leaves your child vulnerable to disease. It is important to vaccinate babies as soon as it’s safe, because infants are especially vulnerable to infectious diseases. Not vaccinating according to the recommended schedule also allows for the spread of disease to others in your community, some of whom cannot be vaccinated -- such as infants and people with certain illnesses -- and are at increased risk for vaccine-preventable diseases.
Pretty well identical argument. And the justification for attacking doctors who vaccinate on a "different" schedule as "anti-vaccine."

I could go on and on with this, but I think I've demonstrated that the vaccine enthusiasts treat the schedule as equal to science, although, as you just pointed out, that is false equivalency. I wouldn't be too vocal on the topic. You'll get slapped with the "label".
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#30 of 51 Old 05-28-2017, 06:53 PM
 
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good post, Deborah.

I am a little baffled by psm saying vaccine science is not the vaccine schedule. I am not sure what point she was trying to make.

I would expect a pro-vaxxer to argue that while they are not the same (true) science informs the schedule. Then we would play a fun game called "is science the greatest contributor to the schedule?" (or cost, vested interest, compliance?)
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