"Whistleblower" documents released - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 21 Old 01-05-2016, 08:19 PM - Thread Starter
 
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"Whistleblower" documents released

About time.


https://www.dropbox.com/sh/jxtr06s5d...uZwMfQy4a?dl=0

There are already some pro-vaccine bloggers that have gone through them writing about it. I'll post the blog links here for anyone interested. I'm not aware of any non-vaccine blogs or websites discussing this release or I would like those here as well.

"The William Thompson Documents. There’s no whistle to blow."

"The CDC whistleblower documents: A whole lot of nothing and no conspiracy to hide an MMR-autism link"

and

"A look at the “Garbage Can Quote” in full context"

Lots of interesting stuff there. Don't have time right now to go through all the points but wanted to touch on that last link. The full context of the "garbage can" quote not surprisingly has information that was conveniently left out by Posey. Like Thompson's statement that all the documents and files were saved on the Immunization Safety Office computer servers and are still there today and not destroyed, for example...

"15. All the coauthors met and decided sometime between August 2002 and September 2002 not to report any RACE effects for the paper.

16. Sometime soon after the meeting where we decided to exclude reporting any RACE effects, also between August 2002 and September 2002, the coauthors scheduled a meeting to destroy documents related to the study. Dr. Coleen Boyle was not present at the meeting even though she was involved in scheduling that meeting. The remaining 4 coauthors all met and brought a big garbage can into the meeting room and reviewed and went through all our hard copy documents that we thought we should discard and put them in the large garbage can. However, because I assumed this was illegal and would violate both FOIA laws and DOJ requests, I kept hard copies of all my documents in my office and I retained all the associated computer files. This included all the Word files (agendas and manuscript drafts), Excel files with analysis and results, and SAS files that I used to generate the statistical findings. I also kept all my written notes from meetings. All the associated MMR-Autism Study computer files have been retained on the Immunization Safety Office computer servers since the inception of the study and they continue to reside there today."

Bolded are the parts that were omitted by Posey.

Matt Carey notes "A more important omission, dare I say a significant omission: “All the associated MMR-Autism Study computer files have been retained on the Immunization Safety Office computer servers since the inception of the study and they continue to reside there today.”

Many people have claimed that the “garbage can” quote means that the data were deleted. Well, that’s not what Thompson said. It’s also a clearly false claim as Brian Hooker was able to obtain the data for his own version of the analysis. Here’s what Dan Olmsted of the Age of Autism blog had to say just a few days ago (he’s listing his “true” conspiracies) “The conspiracy by William Thompson and his colleagues dumping raw data into a wastebasket after they had twisted it into obscuring a link between the MMR and autism.”

He says what I have pointed out multiple times on this forum. There was no data deleted because Hooker was able to get a hold of it directly from the CDC.

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#2 of 21 Old 01-06-2016, 07:47 AM
 
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I'm mentally bookmarking this one to respond later. You've given us a huge homework assignment, Tea.
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#3 of 21 Old 01-06-2016, 07:48 AM
 
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Huh.

I am not overly interested in what pro-vax bloggers have to say on the matter (or non-vax bloggers for that matter). If the documents are 1000 pages long, it would be easy to find stuff that could substantiate any side you want. Confirmation bias.

I am more interested in hearing from Thompsons and the CDC on the matter.

I do find it ironic that Dorit and LBRB (as well as various other skeptic bloggers) are the ones bringing this forward. I thought they were tired of us going on and on about it? And yet, here they are.....I don't think this is going to lay anything to rest. I am as interested in hearing from Dorit and LBRB as you are from hearing AoA's POV.
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#4 of 21 Old 01-06-2016, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post
Huh.

I am not overly interested in what pro-vax bloggers have to say on the matter (or non-vax bloggers for that matter). If the documents are 1000 pages long, it would be easy to find stuff that could substantiate any side you want. Confirmation bias.

I am more interested in hearing from Thompsons and the CDC on the matter.

I do find it ironic that Dorit and LBRB (as well as various other skeptic bloggers) are the ones bringing this forward. I thought they were tired of us going on and on about it? And yet, here they are.....I don't think this is going to lay anything to rest. I am as interested in hearing from Dorit and LBRB as you are from hearing AoA's POV.
It's called deflecting!

There clearly is a reason behind this - push their POV on the matter and disregard facts. You know, repeat it long enough in hopes others think it's REAL! Keep thinking there mustn't be anything here! Defect!!!!!

Odd isn't it that the PRO Agenda does not want to talk about who he lawyered up with??? All this other BS instead! Can't deal with that little pesky issues!

Frankly, ONCE again, when the OP posts "what do you think?" based on PRO blogs - it's ALL BS and not worth the keystrokes! This was posted here for a reason - some must think other's will fall for this trap!
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#5 of 21 Old 01-06-2016, 10:54 AM
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Here is a link that might better help those reading the wonders of Dorit and the musings of her devotees!

http://abovethelaw.com/2015/12/highl...t-vaccination/

Quote:
ATL: Have you been involved in any vaccine litigation?

DR: Not directly. I’m not a lawyerI never took the bar — so I’m unlikely to be involved directly. I have helped people with problems to find lawyers. For example, people who have custody battles where one parent wants to vaccinate and another doesn’t. I’ve talked about issues at a general level with lawyers.
Maybe perspective is helpful here, facts too are always good (at least to some, others clearly will buy what ever their master tells them!!) a REAL law firm is dealing with this! and guess what, they have REAL lawyers involved! But if one wants to take the word from a non-lawyer on legal matters, I guess they will!

http://www.morganverkamp.com (keep it quiet people!!!! these guys actually specialize in whistleblowing)


........and Dorit, well we do know money means nothing, no vested interested! and NO law degree either! my, my, my!

Quote:
(A final note: Professor Reiss asked me to add in the interest of full disclosure that her family’s stock portfolio includes GSK, a vaccine manufacturer.)
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#6 of 21 Old 01-06-2016, 11:33 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Huh.

I am not overly interested in what pro-vax bloggers have to say on the matter (or non-vax bloggers for that matter). If the documents are 1000 pages long, it would be easy to find stuff that could substantiate any side you want. Confirmation bias.

I am more interested in hearing from Thompsons and the CDC on the matter.
The documents are in the first link and are available for anyone to look at. It's a matter of being able to read dates and do basic math like subtraction along with reading direct statements from Thompson, no "trusting" necessary. (I guess unless you mean whether to trust Posey and his office...) It is interesting that there has not been a peep about this from any non-vax sites or blogs who have been begging for years for these documents, however. Very interesting. Guess it's not quite the smoking gun they were hoping for?

Some important dates. The first evidence of any analyzing of data being done is not until October/November 2001. One of the key claims made by Hooker and Wakefield is that the analysis plan was changed after they had started analyzing data to hide the results they didn't like, so in other words, AFTER October/November 2001. Wakefield and Hooker said “Thompson’s conversations with Hooker confirmed that it was only after the CDC study coauthors observed results indicating a statistical association between MMR timing and autism among African-Americans boys, that they introduced the Georgia birth certificate criterion as a requirement for participation in the study. This had the effect of reducing the sample size by 41% and eliminating the statistical significance of the finding, which Hooker calls a direct deviation from the agreed upon final study protocol – a serious violation.’” However, the final analysis plan was dated September 5, 2001 - over a month before any data was analyzed. Here is the link to the final analysis clearly dated in September. You'll note that even months before they started analyzing data they had planned on using birth certificate data.

Even more convincing from the new data dump provided by Posey is the first draft of the analysis plan which is dated April 3, 2001 (over 6 months before they analyzed any data) which also shows they planned on using birth certificate data from the beginning. Another point, as Matt Carey noted "But even more, notice how there’s an annotation “I would include race as a covariate, not as an exposure variable.” That’s critical–they decided against using race as an exposure variable from the start. Before they did a race analysis."

Here is a screen shot: (Again, all these documents are available to anyone via the dropbox link I provided in the OP. No blind trusting of pro-vaccine bloggers is necessary)



Here is the link to the document the screen shot was taken from, dated April 3rd, 2001. (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/jxtr06s5d...00001.PDF?dl=0)

Lastly, I've already shown how the claim that data was destroyed in garbage cans was wrong, cherry picked and important information deliberately omitted (like that all the data is backed up on computer servers and remains there today).

There is more but those touch on some of the more important points. I'll hopefully have time to add more later.

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#7 of 21 Old 01-06-2016, 12:24 PM
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Once again, it's important to remember who is pushing this "release" and what their motives REALLY are!

IF one is gullible to think this is it, some non-smoking gun and that there is nothing here, so be it. Others are wiser to know, the law firm handling this whistleblower case isn't some run of the mill firm, they wound't have taken on a case of this type if THEY didn't have the real papers!
@teacozy , nice try, but really is this all Dorit can muster for you to post?
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#8 of 21 Old 01-06-2016, 12:31 PM
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@teacozy is traffic slow over at Science Blogs? were you sent your email in hopes of helping them out??

again, you keep posting (real pattern here!) of quotes by others (we know what blogs you seem to LOVE!), seems like you are just playing traffic cop!
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#9 of 21 Old 01-07-2016, 05:49 AM
 
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"This must be such a disappointment for those who were supporting this manufactroversy. I am not surprised at the unwillingness on the part of the proponents of the "whistleblower" conspiracy to read the documents that have been released - they will wait for their leaders to come up with misinterpretations of snippets of information that support their worldview. "

The above is a quote from @Mathemom on the pro-vax forum.

http://www.mothering.com/forum/17507...l#post19210505

The support forums are not a place to make assumptive comments about other threads, knowing you cannot be touched because you are on a "support forum". If you want to make assumptive comments (always a bad idea) then take a deep breath and do it in a forum where people can defend themselves.

As per unwillingness to read the documents - have YOU read them? Truly? All 1000 pages? If you haven't then, in addition to pot meets kettle, Maybe you are jumping the gun with the word "manufactoversy" ?

As per myself, I am unlikely to read all of them. There are 1000 pages. I did not vaccinate, and the outcome of the Thompson issue has no bearing whatsoever on my personal decisions. Now, if I were the mother of an African American male under 4 and was considering vaccination, you bet your booty I would read the documents. More power to people who feel they might get something out of the documents and read them.

The documents are unlikely to resolve anything for me.

We have 2 issues:

1. Thosmpson said they omitted significant data and study policy was not followed. The documents are going to do one of two things: confirm why he said this, or leave us with more questions if we see nothing shady. If we see nothing, then we need to talk to Thompson to determine why he made his statement. You cannot decide his statement is false based on the papers - that is not the full picture, nor should we Monday Morning Quarterback what he said. He is the only one who can retract his statements.

2. The CDC response to this whole thing has been lacklustre at best. They are charged with the health of a nation, and have swept this completely under the rug. I am disappointed for Americans. No reading of 1000 pages of notes is going to change that.
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#10 of 21 Old 01-07-2016, 06:11 AM
 
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Crystal ball prediction:

With nary a word from the CDC or Thompson, skeptic bloggers, based on their very biased interpretation of the results (let's face it- they have been screaming "false!" since this issue came out...how could they be anything but very biased?), are going to start declaring this issue debunked. Sigh. I will then have to spend keystrokes debunking the debunking.

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#11 of 21 Old 01-07-2016, 06:20 AM
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"This must be such a disappointment for those who were supporting this manufactroversy. I am not surprised at the unwillingness on the part of the proponents of the "whistleblower" conspiracy to read the documents that have been released - they will wait for their leaders to come up with misinterpretations of snippets of information that support their worldview. "
Quote from @Mathemom on the pro-vax forum.

http://www.mothering.com/forum/17507...l#post19210505

The support forums are not a place to make assumptive comments about other threads, knowing you cannot be touched because you are on a "support forum". If you want to make assumptive comments (always a bad idea) then take a deep breath and do it in a forum where people can defend themselves.
I suppose by "manufactroversy" (not even a real word!) the PRO vaccers still can't deal with what a REAL whistleblower is! Should we go over that thread again??? What "REAL" really is?!

These PRO Agenda non-lawyers that @teacozy post their musing of mean NOTHING! Their option is just that, their's! I doesn't negate any legal action no matter what nonsense they care to spew!

It's really amazing that so many take their advise from those who have a vest agenda in the outcome, not to mention are not even lawyers, but we see it so much on here!
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#12 of 21 Old 01-07-2016, 06:35 AM
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[I]

We have 2 issues:

1. Thosmpson said they omitted significant data and study policy was not followed. The documents are going to do one of two things: confirm why he said this, or leave us with more questions if we see nothing shady. If we see nothing, then we need to talk to Thompson to determine why he made his statement. You cannot decide his statement is false based on the papers - that is not the full picture, nor should we Monday Morning Quarterback what he said. He is the only one who can retract his statements. Assuming this is all, that "assumption" is the real issue here, the PRO sides assumes there can't be anything, say it enough, maybe others will buy it, still it doesn't make a legal issue go away based on wishing it away!

2. The CDC response to this whole thing has been lacklustre at best. They are charged with the health of a nation, and have swept this completely under the rug. I am disappointed for Americans. No reading of 1000 pages of notes is going to change that.
It's lackluster because he lawyered up with a firm that deals with the govt and whistleblowing, I expect the CDC will be super silent until they are forced to talk!

Please Kathy you are giving this thread credit! This is nothing about nothing, the posts of a blog!!!!!!!!!

Lackluster regarding the CDC is true, but when it comes to propaganda on the part of blogs and the OP here, lackluster isn't near strong enough! These people are squirming and grasping for anything to deny and deflect at all costs! Who in their right mind would think any PRO Agenda person could possibly find anything in 1000 pages! When you don't want to find things, you don't see them, it's really quite simple! AGENDA!

What the OP did was copy & paste blog posts! A repeated pattern!!!!!! original thought be damn! We are to have a "conversation" with PRO bloggers not "mommies" on a message board!

I suppose @teacozy you didn't get enough traffic? Need to post this link in the replies some more?

What is the point here???? To show those who are PRO, who have a VERY vested agenda think nothing is going on????......yea, so what? Think anyone here is shocked by any of this? Dream on! Are "WE" to "discuss" blog postings???? Or do you want us to interrupt handwritten notations to somehow support something you want to not be real? What really is the point here? Please do explain it? NONE of this means crap! It doesn't mean that he is not a whistleblower nor does it mean this is just going to all go away..............dream on and on and on and on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You @teacozy can do your copy and paste and pretend this means something, in the end, the blog posts of PRO vaccers really does mean nothing!
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#13 of 21 Old 01-07-2016, 07:24 AM
 
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Please Kathy you are giving this thread credit! This is nothing about nothing, the posts of a blog!!!!!!!!!

Perhaps


I think the real story here is why did a bunch of pro-vax bloggers, who minds were already (very demonstrably) made-up bother to get and semi-analyse a 1000 page document? Why not let it die?


I think the answer is they are scared. The issue won't die...so this is an attempt to go "look - there is nothing there!" and put the issue to bed once and for all. It won't work, though. This issue is bigger than any of them, and they cannot put it to bed, no matter how hard they try.


For my own part, I am pleased any time this issue comes up...even by bloggers with a vested interest in trying to prove themselves right. The more people who know about the issue, and thus know to be cautious, the better. I want this whole thing outted.
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#14 of 21 Old 01-07-2016, 07:42 AM
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Perhaps


I think the real story here is why did a bunch of pro-vax bloggers, who minds were already (very demonstrably) made-up bother to get and semi-analyse a 1000 page document? Why not let it die?


I think the answer is they are scared. The issue won't die...so this is an attempt to go "look - there is nothing there!" and put the issue to bed once and for all. It won't work, though. This issue is bigger than any of them, and they cannot put it to bed, no matter how hard they try.


For my own part, I am pleased any time this issue comes up...even by bloggers with a vested interest in trying to prove themselves right. The more people who know about the issue, and thus know to be cautious, the better. I want this whole thing outted.
Oh, I want it out too! There is a reason those with VESTED interest want this not to be real!! So PRO vaccers can think this is a make-believe! "manufactroversy" Some supports will buy into anything I guess! It really seems to show this, amazing IMO

We had a whole thread on trying by the PRO side to disprove what is a REAL whistleblower! These people want to discredit anyone and anything that goes against their "agenda"!

What I find each time is how we here are expected to "discuss" blog posts! BLOG posts, does it get any stupider??? IF one wants to discuss the points brought up on some guys blog, there is a place for it - ONE THAT BLOG! Driving traffic! This link is posted in the replies! Doesn't get anymore desperate! But when you are told what to post and you stick to the script, what is there to expect!

This is the same old, same old style of posting, we have seen this in so many threads! Some reason the PRO Agenda thinks this is a positive. Those same people who think and do take advise from a non-lawyer on legal issues. Really makes one wonder how naive some are! Sheep.......bah, bah, bah!

Don't take advise from NON-MD's but take advise on legal matters from NON-lawyers! Personally I feel for the kids of parents this manipulated! Such a shame.
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#15 of 21 Old 01-07-2016, 09:54 AM - Thread Starter
 
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And yet....it's non vaxxers who have had these documents for well over a year refusing to publish them. PRO-vaxers are the ones who finally released them. I don't know of a single pro vaxer who hasn't wanted these documents to be made available for everyone to see. Many of us suspected there was nothing earth shattering in them due to Wakefield and Hooker's refusal to release them. We knew if there was really something there they would have shown it by now.

Even their garbage can accusation was a bunch of manufactured BS.

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#16 of 21 Old 01-07-2016, 10:01 AM
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And yet....it's non vaxxers who have had these documents for well over a year refusing to publish them. PRO-vaxers are the ones who finally released them. I don't know of a single pro vaxer who hasn't wanted these documents to be made available for everyone to see. Many of us suspected there was nothing earth shattering in them due to Wakefield and Hooker's refusal to release them. We knew if there was really something there they would have shown it by now.

Even their garbage can accusation was a bunch of manufactured BS.
You read them all or just parroting the PRO Agenda blogs??

How do you find the time, that 7 month old keeps you up enough to read over 1000 pages in 2 days? Please do let us know how that a is done!
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#17 of 21 Old 01-07-2016, 10:04 AM
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@teacozy care to discus rather this is a REAL whistleblower again? Is that where you want to take this? Should we discus his lawyering up with a (gasp!) REAL lawyer or should be talk about the great PRO pretender?

Are we to "discus" PRO blog "opinion" or you wish to "discus" hand written notes?

Again, did you read all the pages?


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#18 of 21 Old 01-07-2016, 10:14 AM
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The more people who know about the issue, and thus know to be cautious, the better. I want this whole thing outted.
Yes, it does help the more who know and who are the ones behind this!




I'm not upset one bit, I don't know any who don't vax that are! More exposure to the "agenda" pushing this and their real goals, ALL the better IMO!
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#19 of 21 Old 01-21-2017, 07:02 AM
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https://worldmercuryproject.org/cdc-...actice-case-2/

I guess we are to believe that these attorneys want Thompson in a court room to destroy this case?
Thompson could be easily discredited and the documents prove that, right?
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#20 of 21 Old 01-21-2017, 09:37 AM
 
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https://worldmercuryproject.org/cdc-...actice-case-2/

I guess we are to believe that these attorneys want Thompson in a court room to destroy this case?
Thompson could be easily discredited and the documents prove that, right?
The vaccine critics are always wrong, and no argument supporting them is ever reasonable. Since we don't have very many people actively supporting vaccines at the moment, I'm filling the gap.
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vaccine injury is preventable
prevent it
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(if the government still allows you to say no...) #teamvaxchoice
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#21 of 21 Old 03-17-2017, 09:16 AM
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this was part of a post above @teacozy

Quote:
Wakefield and Hooker said “Thompson’s conversations with Hooker confirmed that it was only after the CDC study coauthors observed results indicating a statistical association between MMR timing and autism among African-Americans boys, that they introduced the Georgia birth certificate criterion as a requirement for participation in the study. This had the effect of reducing the sample size by 41% and eliminating the statistical significance of the finding, which Hooker calls a direct deviation from the agreed upon final study protocol – a serious violation.’” However, the final analysis plan was dated September 5, 2001 - over a month before any data was analyzed. Here is the link to the final analysis clearly dated in September. You'll note that even months before they started analyzing data they had planned on using birth certificate data
.

I have not read these documents.

While looking for some other information in Barry's book VACCINE WHISTLEBLOWER, there are two things that I remembered that I would like to leave here for anyone considering this issue.
bold added

Page 17

Hooker: Right, right, now in, so, so, these were your analysis files and you basically presented them to the group.

Dr. Thompson: I would on a weekly basis meet with the four coauthors (Destefano, Boyle, Yeargin-Allsopp, and Bhasin) and we would discuss results and you can see how those progressed over time. You want to know the only way I was able to keep track of the dates on those files? The server would change all of the time and they would change the dates on the files so thank goodness I put the actual date in the name of the file because otherwise you wouldn't know the actual date that I had done it.


Bottom of page 19
Thompson: Let me just clarify for you. You can criticize the hell out of this, I don't think it was perfect and I will tell you we were locked in to analyses, that's the problem with all of this. We agreed upfront, actually with this paper we deviated from what we agreed to upfront. So criticize away.
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