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-   -   Tdap and the Zika virus (http://www.mothering.com/forum/47-vaccinations/1551954-tdap-zika-virus.html)

teacozy 02-04-2016 09:11 AM

Tdap and the Zika virus
 
I've been reading a lot of....interesting...theories around the internet about the zika virus and microcephaly but since this is the vaccine forum, I thought I'd bring up the theory that the Tdap during pregnancy is behind the apparent increase in microcephaly in countries like Brazil.

This link does a pretty good job of going into the issue. Dr Rachael Dunlop notes:

Quote:

Although the precise cause(s) of the apparent increase in cases of microcephaly have not yet been identified, the fact that Tdap boosters occur in the third trimester of pregnancy – well after the child’s brain has developed – should give you confidence that Tdap is not to blame. The timing of infection points to the first trimester, perhaps early in the second, rather than the third trimester when Tdap boosters are given. So this alone is enough to rule out the Tdap as a contributing factor.
The link also points out that the Tdap is administered all over the world and in many countries that are not seeing this apparent increase in microcephaly, which further solidifies the idea that the two are not linked.

Anyway, just thought I'd bring it up for the lurkers :)

teacozy 02-04-2016 09:25 AM

This infectious disease epidemiologist named Tara Smith goes into some of the other theories, for those interested.

http://scienceblogs.com/aetiology/20...es-have-begun/

Anne Jividen 02-04-2016 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by teacozy (Post 19258018)
I've been reading a lot of....interesting...theories around the internet about the zika virus and microcephaly but since this is the vaccine forum, I thought I'd bring up the theory that the Tdap during pregnancy is behind the apparent increase in microcephaly in countries like Brazil.

This link does a pretty good job of going into the issue. Dr Rachael Dunlop notes:



The link also points out that the Tdap is administered all over the world and in many countries that are not seeing this apparent increase in microcephaly, which further solidifies the idea that the two are not linked.

Anyway, just thought I'd bring it up for the lurkers :)

If a child's brain is developed in the third trimester of pregnancy how on earth are all those children in Flint at risk of neurological damage due to lead poisoning? Not so sure Dr Dunlap is someone whose word I could take.

teacozy 02-04-2016 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anne Jividen (Post 19258074)
If a child's brain is developed in the third trimester of pregnancy how on earth are all those children in Flint at risk of neurological damage due to lead poisoning? Not so sure Dr Dunlap is someone whose word I could take.

You are comparing two totally different things. Microcephaly can cause brain/skull deformity, which is different than neurological damage.

Anne Jividen 02-04-2016 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by teacozy (Post 19258114)
You are comparing two totally different things. Microcephaly can cause brain/skull deformity, which is different than neurological damage.

So brain deformity and neurological damage are two totally different things?

teacozy 02-04-2016 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anne Jividen (Post 19258210)
So brain deformity and neurological damage are two totally different things?

In the context of the discussion - comparing brain/neurological damage caused by lead poisoning to brain/skull deformity from microcephaly- yes they are totally different.

Anne Jividen 02-04-2016 10:35 AM

The link also points out that the Tdap is administered all over the world and in many countries that are not seeing this apparent increase in microcephaly, which further solidifies the idea that the two are not linked.

Anyway, just thought I'd bring it up for the lurkers :)[/QUOTE]

Keeping in mind that context is key, at what rate have those given the Tdap "all over the world" been exposed to the Zika virus?

Serenity Now 02-04-2016 10:39 AM

Kids with lead poisoning have normal sized brains (at least as far as I'm aware). Zika microcephaly causes very small heads/brains. Totally different symptoms and cause.

My anti-vaccination friends believe the Zika virus is patented by the Rockefellers, and obviously unleashed on an unwitting public. I'm not going to link, I feel scuzzy just going to those websites, so you can Google it.

Dakotacakes 02-04-2016 11:09 AM

I think this highlights a serious problem with polarization. When some individuals become so polarized on an issue like vaccines, that everything must relate to it and be blamed on this one cause, then real concerns will end up being ignored.

I look at real concerns like potential problems with HPV which I am trying to look into, or efficacy of flu shots and what could or should be done about that etc.. But as I do I see all of things that are randomly and reflexively being blamed on vaccines and/or the vaccine program: SIDS, Shaken Baby Syndrome, autism, downs syndrome, ebola (this one was especially heinous given the mockery of the sufferers of ebola as "actors"), asthma, eczema, and now microcephaly (which apparently is only being blamed on zika but actually is just another vaccine reaction). When anything and everything that happens is linked to vaccines, it makes potential real concerns get ignored in my opinion.

I also think it is not fair to the victims of this virus to try to divert attention away from Zika and potential remedies to that (mosquito policy and/or (but preferably AND) vaccines for the virus and toward avoiding vaccines. It isn't a vaccine damage, if it were it would not just be happening in warm climates with this mosquito and this virus.

Anne Jividen 02-04-2016 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dakotacakes (Post 19258394)
I think this highlights a serious problem with polarization. When some individuals become so polarized on an issue like vaccines, that everything must relate to it and be blamed on this one cause, then real concerns will end up being ignored.

I look at real concerns like potential problems with HPV which I am trying to look into, or efficacy of flu shots and what could or should be done about that etc.. But as I do I see all of things that are randomly and reflexively being blamed on vaccines and/or the vaccine program: SIDS, Shaken Baby Syndrome, autism, downs syndrome, ebola (this one was especially heinous given the mockery of the sufferers of ebola as "actors"), asthma, eczema, and now microcephaly (which apparently is only being blamed on zika but actually is just another vaccine reaction). When anything and everything that happens is linked to vaccines, it makes potential real concerns get ignored in my opinion.

I also think it is not fair to the victims of this virus to try to divert attention away from Zika and potential remedies to that (mosquito policy and/or (but preferably AND) vaccines for the virus and toward avoiding vaccines. It isn't a vaccine damage, if it were it would not just be happening in warm climates with this mosquito and this virus.

Well, there could be nothing more polarizing then labeling a person who wants to immunize herself and/or her child in a manner that she deems most effective and safe as "anti-vaccine".
Perhaps receiving a Tdap vaccine while pregnant puts a woman infected with Zika virus at greater risk of giving birth to a baby with microcephaly? In which case it would be absolutely appropriate to tell pregnant women living in regions of the world where Zika is a risk to avoid getting vaccinated while pregnant.

kathymuggle 02-04-2016 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Serenity Now (Post 19258314)

My anti-vaccination friends believe the Zika virus is patented by the Rockefellers, and obviously unleashed on an unwitting public. I'm not going to link, I feel scuzzy just going to those websites, so you can Google it.

Intriguing. My non-vax friends believe Zika is transmitted by mosquitoes found in warm areas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dakotacakes (Post 19258394)
I think this highlights a serious problem with polarization. When some individuals become so polarized on an issue like vaccines, that everything must relate to it and be blamed on this one cause, then real concerns will end up being ignored.

I look at real concerns like potential problems with HPV which I am trying to look into, or efficacy of flu shots and what could or should be done about that etc.. But as I do I see all of things that are randomly and reflexively being blamed on vaccines and/or the vaccine program: SIDS, Shaken Baby Syndrome, autism, downs syndrome, ebola (this one was especially heinous given the mockery of the sufferers of ebola as "actors"), asthma, eczema, and now microcephaly (which apparently is only being blamed on zika but actually is just another vaccine reaction). When anything and everything that happens is linked to vaccines, it makes potential real concerns get ignored in my opinion.

I also think it is not fair to the victims of this virus to try to divert attention away from Zika and potential remedies to that (mosquito policy and/or (but preferably AND) vaccines for the virus and toward avoiding vaccines. It isn't a vaccine damage, if it were it would not just be happening in warm climates with this mosquito and this virus.

I largely agree with you.

I do question the bolded, though. Who is ignoring the real issues around things like HPV, flu , mumps and pertussis vaccines? It is not vaccine critics. By and large these things are ignored by vaccine advocates (who fear they will open Pandora's Box if they admit issues).

There are lots of non-vaxxers who do not think vaccines are linked xyz. I do not think vaccines are linked to down syndrome or ebola, and I have serious doubts vaccines are linked to SIDS. Moderate views, though, are never focused on by pro-vaxxers. Interesting views are what's focused on.

Pro-vaxxers who refuse to look at genuine issues in vaccines are ultimately responsible for their own failure to examine the issue (despite whatever noise vaccine critics are making) and vaccine critics who over-blame vaccines are ultimately responsible for their belief system (despite the pro-vax rah-rah-rah noise).

For the record, at this point in time I am inclined to think Zika is a mosquito spread illness. I hope they get it under control in the safest way possible for all the women of childbearing age in the countries affected. I don't care if this includes a vaccine or not (although I prefer vaccines not to be given in pregnancy), as long as it is not rammed down the throat of those who are in no danger from Zika.

ismewilde 02-04-2016 02:15 PM

I am not so nonvaxx that I think everything that goes wrong is related to vaccines. However, there is a very strong correlation between the sudden onset of these microcephaly cases and the introduction of the TDap vaccine to pregnant women. There is very little correlation between the Zika virus, which has been around for a very long time and almost always causes mild problems- so much so that it is often not even noticed by those who get it, and the sudden rise in microcephaly cases. Of those that have been confirmed, Zika has only been found in a small number. Part of that is that it is difficult to test for. However, one common factor in all of the cases is the likely the TDap vaccine. The question is, why is it wrong to consider it a possibility? Why is that a terrible thing to suggest? When you think about it, really think about it, it shouldn't be! Refusing to consider it is what has got us where we are now in the vaccine issue.

Serenity Now 02-04-2016 03:47 PM

Kathy, I wish your antivaccine friends were mine. Yours sound much more reasonable. My facebook has blown up with that stupid Rockefeller patent thing, and you can't change their minds.

Deborah 02-04-2016 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Serenity Now (Post 19259042)
Kathy, I wish your antivaccine friends were mine. Yours sound much more reasonable. My facebook has blown up with that stupid Rockefeller patent thing, and you can't change their minds.

I'm a vaccine critic. I saw the Rockefeller patent article. It does NOT compute.

I'd love to see more careful, critical thinking on both sides of this debate.

samaxtics 02-05-2016 07:20 AM

How long has the Zika virus been around? Why is this virus an issue only now for pregnant women? Furthermore, very few of the babies with malformations tested positive for Zika. I'm not convinced that it has anything to do with it.

From what I've read, Brazil uses even more pesticides than the US. I believe pesticides are the real culprit here as some of the studies point in that direction.

This is a paper that discusses how "GBH and Glyphosate Disrupt the Development of the Craniofacial Skeleton" . Unfortunately it won't allow copying. Here's the abstract: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/tx1001749

And here's the pdf if you want to read the whole thing:
http://www.gmo-free-regions.org/file...ToxAug2010.pdf


Argentina has had the same issues with birth defects and pesticides:
Quote:

The types of diseases found among "sprayed people" have dramatically changed in the provinces of Cordoba, Santa Fe, and Chaco since Argentina started using pesticides on cultivated crops in 1996, Avila-Vazquez said.

Doctors have noticed more cancers, miscarriages, and birth defects since then, reports show. In the northeastern Chaco province, one of the poorest regions in the country, birth defects quadrupled in the 2000s.
my bold
https://news.vice.com/article/argent...ng-locals-sick

And same for the Philippines:
Comparison of pesticide exposure and physical examination, neurological assessment, and laboratory findings between full-time and part-time vegetable farmers in the Philippines
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2767498/

Anne Jividen 02-05-2016 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Serenity Now (Post 19258314)
Kids with lead poisoning have normal sized brains (at least as far as I'm aware). Zika microcephaly causes very small heads/brains. Totally different symptoms and cause.

So do babies afflicted with Zika virus-induced microcephaly have brains that function neurotypically?

Should microcephaly, and lead poisoning for that matter, be considered contraindications for vaccination?

If virus can cause "brain deformity", whether in size or in function, should we be injecting them into pregnant women?

My answers:
Don't know, it's hard for me to get a fair read on neurotypical behaviors of infants born with microcephaly vrs healthy infants.
Heeeels yes!
Heeeels no!

Anne Jividen 02-05-2016 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deborah (Post 19259346)
I'm a vaccine critic. I saw the Rockefeller patent article. It does NOT compute.

I'd love to see more careful, critical thinking on both sides of this debate.

This is neither careful of critically thoughtful but my conspiracy theory of this conspiracy theory is that this story is floated to make people for whom it does compute (most of whom will be vaccine critics) seem crazy. Sorry, just had to put this out there.

Anne Jividen 02-05-2016 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samaxtics (Post 19260066)
How long has the Zika virus been around? Why is this virus an issue only now for pregnant women? Furthermore, very few of the babies with malformations tested positive for Zika. I'm not convinced that it has anything to do with it.

From what I've read, Brazil uses even more pesticides than the US. I believe pesticides are the real culprit here as some of the studies point in that direction.

This is a paper that discusses how "GBH and Glyphosate Disrupt the Development of the Craniofacial Skeleton" . Unfortunately it won't allow copying. Here's the abstract: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/tx1001749

And here's the pdf if you want to read the whole thing:
http://www.gmo-free-regions.org/file...ToxAug2010.pdf


Argentina has had the same issues with birth defects and pesticides:
my bold
https://news.vice.com/article/argent...ng-locals-sick

And same for the Philippines:
Comparison of pesticide exposure and physical examination, neurological assessment, and laboratory findings between full-time and part-time vegetable farmers in the Philippines
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2767498/

And then there's always my fav:
http://www.ageofautism.com/2016/02/p...irus.html#more

I think there are a lot of environmental factors at play here and I don't think we can rule out the new practice of injecting pregnant women with the Tdap.

EMRguy 02-05-2016 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by teacozy (Post 19258018)
I've been reading a lot of....interesting...theories around the internet about the zika virus and microcephaly but since this is the vaccine forum, I thought I'd bring up the theory that the Tdap during pregnancy is behind the apparent increase in microcephaly in countries like Brazil.

This link does a pretty good job of going into the issue. Dr Rachael Dunlop notes:



The link also points out that the Tdap is administered all over the world and in many countries that are not seeing this apparent increase in microcephaly, which further solidifies the idea that the two are not linked.

Anyway, just thought I'd bring it up for the lurkers :)

In Brazil they are giving 3 doses 60 days apart with the last dose before the 36th week of gestation.
So the first does is around the 28th week, if the mother doesnt have any records they start all 3 doses.

serenbat 02-05-2016 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EMRguy (Post 19260362)
In Brazil they are giving 3 doses 60 days apart with the last dose before the 36th week of gestation.
So the first does is around the 28th week, if the mother doesnt have any records they start all 3 doses.

I read reports that in some rural areas they started prior to the 20th week. Cities at 28 weeks. Most cases are in rural- correct?

EMRguy 02-05-2016 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by serenbat (Post 19260394)
I read reports that in some rural areas they started prior to the 20th week. Cities at 28 weeks. Most cases are in rural- correct?

The state where all started is one of the poorer states in Brazil, i highly doubt any type of schedule is followed since most would have to travel far to go to the government funded clinics for vaccines and OB care.

Serenity Now 02-05-2016 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anne Jividen (Post 19260074)
So do babies afflicted with Zika virus-induced microcephaly have brains that function neurotypically?

Should microcephaly, and lead poisoning for that matter, be considered contraindications for vaccination?

If virus can cause "brain deformity", whether in size or in function, should we be injecting them into pregnant women?

My answers:
Don't know, it's hard for me to get a fair read on neurotypical behaviors of infants born with microcephaly vrs healthy infants.
Heeeels yes!
Heeeels no!

These things don't follow, like there's no connection between these questions, so I'm not sure what you are asking? Lead poisoning and Zika have absolutely nothing in common. It would be like saying congenital rubella syndrome and Zika both cause birth defects, so therefore we should be vaccinating all women for rubella because it prevents birth defects. That doesn't follow.

(and FTR, I'm in favor of rubella vaccination for all people)

Serenity Now 02-05-2016 09:49 AM

Oh, and Zika first showed up in the 40's.

Anne Jividen 02-05-2016 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kathymuggle (Post 19258794)
Intriguing. My non-vax friends believe Zika is transmitted by mosquitoes found in warm areas.



I largely agree with you.

I do question the bolded, though. Who is ignoring the real issues around things like HPV, flu , mumps and pertussis vaccines? It is not vaccine critics. By and large these things are ignored by vaccine advocates (who fear they will open Pandora's Box if they admit issues).

There are lots of non-vaxxers who do not think vaccines are linked xyz. I do not think vaccines are linked to down syndrome or ebola, and I have serious doubts vaccines are linked to SIDS. Moderate views, though, are never focused on by pro-vaxxers. Interesting views are what's focused on.

Pro-vaxxers who refuse to look at genuine issues in vaccines are ultimately responsible for their own failure to examine the issue (despite whatever noise vaccine critics are making) and vaccine critics who over-blame vaccines are ultimately responsible for their belief system (despite the pro-vax rah-rah-rah noise).

For the record, at this point in time I am inclined to think Zika is a mosquito spread illness. I hope they get it under control in the safest way possible for all the women of childbearing age in the countries affected. I don't care if this includes a vaccine or not (although I prefer vaccines not to be given in pregnancy), as long as it is not rammed down the throat of those who are in no danger from Zika.

I have been hearing for years that there may be a possible link between GB and the tetanus vaccine:http://www.nvic.org/Vaccines-and-Diseases/Tetanus.aspx

Is it now fair to look into the recently adopted practice of vaccinating pregnant woman?:http://www.democracynow.org/2016/2/5...lated_syndrome

Anne Jividen 02-05-2016 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Serenity Now (Post 19260426)
These things don't follow, like there's no connection between these questions, so I'm not sure what you are asking? Lead poisoning and Zika have absolutely nothing in common. It would be like saying congenital rubella syndrome and Zika both cause birth defects, so therefore we should be vaccinating all women for rubella because it prevents birth defects. That doesn't follow.

(and FTR, I'm in favor of rubella vaccination for all people)

I'm not asking whether or not you think these questions are related. I'm simply asking these questions.

Xerxella 02-05-2016 10:05 AM

29 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by samaxtics (Post 19260066)
How long has the Zika virus been around? Why is this virus an issue only now for pregnant women? Furthermore, very few of the babies with malformations tested positive for Zika. I'm not convinced that it has anything to do with it.

From what I've read, Brazil uses even more pesticides than the US. I believe pesticides are the real culprit here as some of the studies point in that direction.

This is a paper that discusses how "GBH and Glyphosate Disrupt the Development of the Craniofacial Skeleton" . Unfortunately it won't allow copying. Here's the abstract: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/tx1001749

And here's the pdf if you want to read the whole thing:
http://www.gmo-free-regions.org/file...ToxAug2010.pdf


Argentina has had the same issues with birth defects and pesticides:
my bold
https://news.vice.com/article/argent...ng-locals-sick

And same for the Philippines:
Comparison of pesticide exposure and physical examination, neurological assessment, and laboratory findings between full-time and part-time vegetable farmers in the Philippines
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2767498/



I think pesticides should be strongly looked at as a possible culprit. Since, the outbreak happened within a year after the World Cup was hosted. I would think the government was extensively spraying for mosquitoes before such an international event. Did someone spray too heavily? Use the pesticide at improper concentrations? I think it should be looked at.


But, I also think, the case will become clearer as the Zika Virus spreads. If it is the culprit, microcephaly will spread with it.

teacozy 02-05-2016 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EMRguy (Post 19260362)
In Brazil they are giving 3 doses 60 days apart with the last dose before the 36th week of gestation.
So the first does is around the 28th week, if the mother doesnt have any records they start all 3 doses.

Ok, and? The CDC recommends the vaccine anywhere from 27 weeks to 36 weeks of pregnancy as well. That is still well past the point when the brain is formed.

Putting aside the lack of biological plausibility, if it was the Tdap we would still expect to see an increase of microcephaly in other countries that also recommend the vaccine - not just in ones with a tropical climate.

EMRguy 02-05-2016 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by teacozy (Post 19260530)
Ok, and? The CDC recommends the vaccine anywhere from 27 weeks to 36 weeks of pregnancy as well. That is still well past the point when the brain is formed.

Putting aside the lack of biological plausibility, if it was the Tdap we would still expect to see an increase of microcephaly in other countries that also recommend the vaccine - not just in ones with a tropical climate.

Does CDC recommends 3 doses like they recommend in Brazil?

teacozy 02-05-2016 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EMRguy (Post 19260594)
Does CDC recommends 3 doses like they recommend in Brazil?

Can you please link an an official government vaccine schedule from Brazil that says that? Not an article or something from a non-vaccine blog or website, please. A primary source. I looked here and found no such recommendation for the Tdap. It did say that if a woman needs TIG (because of a wound, etc) while they are pregnant they should receive two doses during pregnancy and a third after birth. But TIG is not the same thing as Tdap.

EMRguy 02-05-2016 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by teacozy (Post 19260618)
Can you please link an an official government vaccine schedule from Brazil that says that? Not an article or something from a non-vaccine blog or website, please. A primary source. I looked here and found no such recommendation for the Tdap. It did say that if a woman needs TIG (because of a wound, etc) while they are pregnant they should receive two doses during pregnancy and a third after birth. But TIG is not the same thing as Tdap.

As official as it gets...
http://www.perinatal.com.br/pdf/vacinacao_materna.pdf


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