‘Seriously flawed’ study linking behavioral problems to Gardasil has been retracted - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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#61 of 86 Old 03-03-2016, 06:34 PM
 
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NOT the same agency. NOT the same agency.

Fombonne got the numbers from the wrong place.

But I'll admit that teacozy did manage to note that there is a different agency in Quebec which could supply the right numbers. Only that isn't where Fombonne went. He cited the agency that collected info for the City of Quebec and the surrounding region.
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#62 of 86 Old 03-03-2016, 06:36 PM
 
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The fact that an entirely unrelated study got their numbers from the RIGHT agency just highlights Fombonne's amazing incompetence AND the reality that his glaring errors were overlooked and his awful paper has never been retracted.

As an example of a crappy paper that should have been retracted, this one is stellar.

The cherry-picked school department is another piece of data rigging.
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#63 of 86 Old 03-03-2016, 07:40 PM
 
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Cochrane deemed it high risk for bias.
http://www.princeton.edu/~sswang/dem..._MMR-risks.pdf

Here's another review that spells out the errors:
Quote:
In conclusion, the numerous flaws in the Fombonne et al study along with the lack of confirmation of non-Thimerosal exposure in their PDD cases renders the paper’s data deceptive and uninterruptible and their conclusions are unsupported.
http://www.fourteenstudies.org/MMR_3_details.html

@kathymuggle
Here's the full study:
http://www.fourteenstudies.org/pdf/MMR_3.pdf
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#64 of 86 Old 03-03-2016, 07:46 PM
 
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Quote:
data deceptive and uninterruptible
I think that is a typo. Should be uninterpritable, which doesn't seem to be a word. Perhaps, "impossible to interpret" would work?

Oh well, not my job to sort out their meaning. Deceptive is clear enough.
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#65 of 86 Old 03-03-2016, 08:28 PM
 
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Thanks for the full study.

Here is my interpretation of the wrong city issue.

To quote:

"Data on MMR uptake for the study period were available through the Direction de Sante ́ Publique de la Capitale Nationale (N. Boulianne, BN, MSc, written communication, 2005). These data were routinely collected in the region of Quebec among 5-year-old children attending kindergar- ten during the years 1993-2004 (ie, for birth cohorts
from 1988 –1998). Vaccination records from children were used as the main source of information to docu- ment MMR vaccination and its date. When this infor- mation was not available, vaccination status of the chil- dren was obtained through consultation of the regional vaccination registry or else through direct contact with doctor’s practices, both from community clinics or pri- vate offices. Data were unavailable for 2 birth cohorts (1987 and 1997) during the study interval. Surveys were performed annually on a total population of 35 643 children, with each annual sample fluctuating in size between 2234 in 1990 to 5914 in 1993. For the 10 birth cohorts with available data, the average MMR uptake in Quebec was 93.2% during the whole period, ranging from 91.3% in the 1992 birth cohort to 96.4% in the 1989 birth cohort."

MMR uptake records were housed in Quebec City. No biggie. That is the province's capital. The records though are either largely drawn from Quebec City or from the Province of Quebec as a whole....and that is a huge problem. I tend to think the vaccine records were drawn from Quebec City and area, as why would they bother to say "Quebec Region" if they meant the whole province?

This is a huge issue. I cannot stress how different Montreal is from Quebec City and indeed, the rest of the province. Quebec City is 94% French Canadian, with a small smattering of Anglos and immigrants.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_City

Quebec as a whole outside of Montreal has low genetic diversity - here is a link that discusses Quebec and founder populations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founder_effect

Montreal, OTOH, is extremely diverse.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Montreal
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#66 of 86 Old 03-03-2016, 08:37 PM - Thread Starter
 
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@Deborah , they do not appear to be different agencies. From your post on the thread where we first discussed this:

Quote:
MMR coverage data was taken from the city of Quebec, rather than from Montreal, where the PDD data was gathered. MMR data ―were available through N. Bouliane, of the Direction de Santé Publique de la Capitale Nationale,‖ the authors wrote.
Then there is this:

Quote:
Nicole Boulianne, MSc

Scientific Unit Head, Immunization, with the Quebec National Institute of Public Health, a researcher with the Public Health Research Unit of CHUQ, and Associate Professor in the Department of Social and Preventive Medicine at Laval University
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3024167/

The quote from the other study I posted on page 2:

Quote:
We obtained records of vaccination from the National Public Health Institute of Quebec for all persons vaccinated on the Island of Montreal.
Putting in both of those nearly identical terms into google comes up with the same website link.

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#67 of 86 Old 03-03-2016, 08:47 PM - Thread Starter
 
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@Kathy , I'm not sure what exactly you are arguing but nearly 90% of the subjects were from Quebec.

From the study:

Quote:
Second, because of the ecological nature of the data set, individual thimerosal exposure data were not known. However, places of birth were available on all 180 of the PDD subjects. Of the 180 subjects, 158 (87.8%) were born in Quebec and were, therefore, extremely likely to have followed the immunization schedule. The proportion of children born in Quebec did not vary across the 3 thimerosal exposure periods

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#68 of 86 Old 03-03-2016, 09:07 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
@Kathy , I'm not sure what exactly you are arguing but nearly 90% of the subjects were born in Quebec.

From the study:
Tea, if I am lacking articulation, it is because I am getting sleepy. I was born in Montreal, lived there for 23 year, and visit 4-6 times a year. I have been to Quebec City, too (highly recommend - gorgeous!). I would not assume the vaccine rates in Quebec (city or province) are similar to vaccine rates in Montreal. The study certainly did not make that case.
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#69 of 86 Old 03-04-2016, 06:31 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post
Tea, if I am lacking articulation, it is because I am getting sleepy. I was born in Montreal, lived there for 23 year, and visit 4-6 times a year. I have been to Quebec City, too (highly recommend - gorgeous!). I would not assume the vaccine rates in Quebec (city or province) are similar to vaccine rates in Montreal. The study certainly did not make that case.
I have to agree about potential differences in the three populations, Montreal, Quebec City and environs, and the Province of Quebec.

From any issue that might potentially involve genetics culture, or environment, you're conflating NYC, Albany, and Upstate NY.

Which, as I've explained to folks abroad, are different places.
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#70 of 86 Old 03-04-2016, 06:38 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post
Tea, if I am lacking articulation, it is because I am getting sleepy. I was born in Montreal, lived there for 23 year, and visit 4-6 times a year. I have been to Quebec City, too (highly recommend - gorgeous!). I would not assume the vaccine rates in Quebec (city or province) are similar to vaccine rates in Montreal. The study certainly did not make that case.
On almost 4 years of chronic insomnia, I understood you perfectly. I've come across lots of people who don't want to understand, so they never will. I wonder.

Sus
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#71 of 86 Old 03-04-2016, 11:39 AM
 
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I went back to that old thread and to save some time just lifted my own post.

Criticisms of the study

Quote:
Fombonne et al. could not possibly have accurately estimated the citywide rates of PDD merely by assessing just this one school board; any conclusions about a relationship between vaccines and PDD rates in Montreal may be seriously flawed.
Furthermore I think I read in the study that they were having school personnel determine whether some students had PDD. Really? WT? I can imagine applying for the Disability tax credit using a note from the counsellor or teacher. <rolling my eyes> Wow.

Quote:
LBPSB includes a Center of Excellence in Autism, so its high rates of PDD are likely influenced by the fact that it is the only totally inclusive school board of the Province of Quebec and has a very high ratio of integration of students with PDD into regular classes. Many families of children with PDD often seek to enroll them in LBPSB resulting in an overestimate of true PDD rates in Montreal as a whole.
That happens everywhere. My province has better programming and financing than others and we came here from another province for that reason. I'm pretty sure that is one reason why New Jersey has high rates as well. When there was talk of my dh being transferred back to the States, I told him we'd consider NJ because of the school I had read about that had programs for children with autism.

Quote:
Fombonne et al. chose to study MMR coverage rates, rather than the number of MMR vaccines received. He ignored the fact that autism rates increased following a doubling of the MMR exposure after 1996 when a second MMR shot was added to the schedule and chose to emphasize that a rise in PDD rates coincided with a decline in MMR coverage.
Quote:
Fombonne also ignored the possible effect of mass measles immunization campaigns in Quebec that delivered a second dose of measles to a large number of infants and children throughout 1996.22 The subsequent rise in PDD shortly after that campaign is clearly depicted in their figures.
Quote:
MMR coverage data was taken from the city of Quebec, rather than from Montreal, where the PDD data was gathered. MMR data ―were available through N. Bouliane, of the Direction de Santé Publique de la Capitale Nationale,‖ the authors wrote. But the ―Capitale Nationale‖ refers to Quebec City, not Montreal, some 265 kilometers away. Ms. Bouliane confirmed that the MMR vaccination rates were from the Quebec City.
Quote:
Published MMR vaccine surveys from Montreal show that rates among children 24 to 30 months old did not fall during the period in question, but actually increased from 85.1% in 1983 (Baumgarten)23 to 88.8% in 1996-97 (Valiquette)24 to 96% in 2003-04 (Health Department Survey).25
■ This suggests that in Montreal, PDD prevalence and MMR vaccination rates were in fact increasing in tandem during the study period.
Here are the references:
Quote:
22 Sandra Caron S. ―Les injections multiples en vaccination ça vaut le coup!" Available at: http://www.oiiq.org/ordres/monteregi...3n3/p12_14.pdf. Accessed January 1, 2007.
23 Annexe 1 of "Enquête sur la couverture vaccinale des enfants de 24 à 30 mois de Montréal-Centre" by Valiquette (1998).
24 Table 3 (page 20) of "Enquête sur la couverture vaccinale des enfants de 24 à 30 mois de Montréal-Centre" by Valiquette (1998)
25 4 Hudson Patricia et al., Are Montreal Children adequately vaccinated? Prevention en pratique médicale. Online at: http://www.santepub- mtl.qc.ca/Publication/pdfppm/ppmjuly2005.pdf
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#72 of 86 Old 03-04-2016, 01:39 PM
 
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Originally Posted by samaxtics View Post
I went back to that old thread and to save some time just lifted my own post.
Thanks for digging all that up. I don't have much time right now.
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I dug up an interesting tidbit about this paper. The editor of the journal is claiming to have his hands clean of conflicts of interest, which we know are never relevant in the wide and wonderful world of vaccines. But this editor is none other than Gregory Poland, as in *the* Gregory Poland.
I just thought I'd throw that disclosure out there.
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#74 of 86 Old 10-29-2016, 07:28 PM
 
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http://retractionwatch.com/2016/10/2...ter-revisions/

But I bet it will be kicked out again. The HPV vaccine defense team is tireless. There are billions of dollars in play.
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#75 of 86 Old 11-01-2016, 09:10 PM
 
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http://link.springer.com/article/10....026-016-8826-6
link is to abstract.
Skeptical Rapturous has already criticized it. Expect quotes to turn up soon in this thread...
Fans can track this down on their own. The librarian is going to bed!
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#76 of 86 Old 11-02-2016, 06:25 AM
 
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It's interesting how the people really pushing this vaccine aren't the targeted demographic for the vaccine.

The old adage about not letting people influence/make a decision for you when they don't partake in the consequence comes to mind.
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#77 of 86 Old 11-02-2016, 09:46 AM
 
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Originally Posted by samaxtics View Post
It's interesting how the people really pushing this vaccine aren't the targeted demographic for the vaccine.

The old adage about not letting people influence/make a decision for you when they don't partake in the consequence comes to mind.
Good question. Does Gorski have a teenage kid? Skeptical R?
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#78 of 86 Old 11-02-2016, 11:29 AM
 
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Good question. Does Gorski have a teenage kid? Skeptical R?
Not even that. Would they themselves take the vaccine? You know, get it at the same time when they are going in for their boosters for TdaP, MMR, and the flu vaccine.
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#79 of 86 Old 11-02-2016, 12:53 PM
 
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Can't respond without saying something mean about a couple of people...
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#80 of 86 Old 11-07-2016, 09:22 AM
 
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Shocking that a few days have passed and the study is still standing? Is that possible?

Went and checked. Article is still up. Has been downloaded over 300 times.

This is terrifying that evil, anti-vaccine science that undermines vaccine sales is not being instantly retracted!

Perhaps the system does work occasionally. For a week or two.
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#81 of 86 Old 11-18-2016, 07:39 PM
 
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Study is still up.

Weeks have passed.

The system works!
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#82 of 86 Old 11-21-2016, 05:13 PM
 
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And the article still stands. Has been downloaded almost 400 times.

What a shame.
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I was just reading an article in The Guardian about how dietary fat was wrongly believed (or should I say promoted?) to be the cause of obesity.

Here we have an example of someone brave enough to follow the science instead of the dogma.

Quote:
In her painstakingly researched book, The Big Fat Surprise, the journalist Nina Teicholz traces the history of the proposition that saturated fats cause heart disease, and reveals the remarkable extent to which its progress from controversial theory to accepted truth was driven, not by new evidence, but by the influence of a few powerful personalities, one in particular.
She is now a advocate for ensuring that nutrition policy derives from good science. Last year she had an article published in the BMJ which addressed the "inadequacy of the scientific advice that underpins the Dietary Guidelines".

So all the scientists rejoiced and immediately changed their way of thinking!

Just Kidding.

Quote:
The response of the nutrition establishment was ferocious: 173 scientists – some of whom were on the advisory panel, and many of whose work had been critiqued in Teicholz’s book – signed a letter to the BMJ, demanding it retract the piece.
my bold

Quote:
The letter lists “11 errors”, which on close reading turn out to range from the trivial to the entirely specious. I spoke to several of the scientists who signed the letter. They were happy to condemn the article in general terms, but when I asked them to name just one of the supposed errors in it, not one of them was able to. One admitted he had not read it. Another told me she had signed the letter because the BMJ should not have published an article that was not peer reviewed (it was peer reviewed). Meir Stampfer, a Harvard epidemiologist, asserted that Teicholz’s work is “riddled with errors”, while declining to discuss them with me.
All emphasis mine.

They have no facts but they have opinions. And many of those opinions are not on her work but on her. Some doctor accused her work of reeking of conflicts of interest but did not, or could not, specify what the conflicts were. He has written four diet books btw.

My guess is that sometimes studies/papers get retracted not because they are not good science, but because they challenge a hardcore belief system and all the trappings it comes with.
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As a society, we're so quick to condemn people who sign petitions without reading them....unless it's a petition for a retraction. Wow.
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#85 of 86 Old 11-22-2016, 11:31 AM
 
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But...but...no one would demand a retraction just because it makes them look bad or threatens their career...would they?
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#86 of 86 Old 11-22-2016, 08:57 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
First of all, the study the thread is about did have clear errors. That is why it was retracted.

Second of all, I am not at all afraid to discuss potential issues with vaccines. Well done studies do and should get attention (rotavirus vaccine study that got it pulled from the market, the study showing an h1n1 vaccine caused narcolepsy, etc). But a flawed mouse study that used the wrong statistical analysis that lots of people in the non/anti vaccine community are going to claim "proves" gardasil causes behavioral problems should be retracted. If there weren't any problems with the study, I absolutely think it should stay up. I actually think the authors should redo the study and republish it. No problem with that at all.

But as I said before, since *so much* attention is brought and so much hoopla is made about even these small and not all that conclusive studies by the non vaccine community, they need to at the very least be well done and not have errors.
Did it have errors? Was that why it was retracted?

It has been published in a different journal. Has not yet been retracted.

Thoughts?
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vaccine injury is preventable
prevent it
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(if the government still allows you to say no...) #teamvaxchoice
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