Real vaccine reaction/injury? Or not? - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 56 Old 04-08-2016, 07:21 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Real vaccine reaction/injury? Or not?

http://www.fairwarning.org/2016/04/f...accine-safety/

Over the last few years there have been claims that all or most of the DPT claims that were paid were mistakes and didn't represent real vaccine injuries.

Quote:
The emergency room doctor who treated Porter corroborated his injury in medical records, and made a filing through the federal Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System to document his DPT reaction. Furthermore, at the time of Porter’s injury I was working in a medical school while finishing a PhD in neuropsychology. My graduate advisor, a neurologist, encouraged me to pursue a claim, emphasizing that brain injuries were rare but were documented effects of DPT inoculations. - See more at: http://www.fairwarning.org/2016/04/f....LLtQfiiU.dpuf
Some people seem to think that brain injuries have been "undocumented" as effects of DPT.

The odd thing is that this process of dismissing such reactions is based, for the most part, on these very small studies, case studies in fact, involving just a few children. What does that remind me of?

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#2 of 56 Old 04-08-2016, 08:05 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Are the stories about DPT reactions all being coincidental honest or a retroactive cover-up?

Another of the examples of questionable honesty around vaccines.

I'll let someone else dig up the arguments on the other side on this one. Feeling lazy about having to argue both sides

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#3 of 56 Old 04-09-2016, 07:19 AM - Thread Starter
 
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There is an interesting pattern that popped into my mind this morning.

1) Parents and doctors see a pattern of severe reactions and brain injuries following DPT vaccinations. Some scientists do real big studies and claim that there are no such problems occurring.

2) Parents and some doctors see a pattern of severe reactions and behavioral and gut problems following MMR vaccinations. Some scientists do real big studies and claim that there are no such problems occurring.

3) Parents and some doctors see a pattern of severe reactions following HPV vaccinations. Some scientists do real big studies and claim that there are no such problems occurring.

The hitch occurs with number 3. One of the real big studies was done in Scandinavia. Looked at hundreds of thousands of girls and found no pattern of problems. But then some doctors in Denmark found over 1,000 girls with severe problems following HPV vaccination. All of these cases may be coincidental, but it is still quite worrying that the big study missed them all. Didn't see them and explain them away. Flat out missed them.

Could previous big studies on DPT and MMR have also missed a few thousand real cases somehow?

Is this a tendency of certain types of big vaccine studies? To miss real cases?
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#4 of 56 Old 04-09-2016, 07:36 AM
 
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@Deborah - you bring up these missing 1000 Danish girls all the time. Can you post the links to the evidence for this claim? Probably you did before, but I can't be bothered to dig through all the many mentions you've made without the link.
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#5 of 56 Old 04-09-2016, 08:00 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Here is one of the published studies on some of the girls, just to show that these are real doctors who are able to get their studies published. http://www.danmedj.dk/portal/page/po..._2015_04/A5064

Quote:
Perhaps even more notably, Denmark has announced that it is conducting its own independent investigation. More than 1300 girls and young women with such symptoms have been referred to five specialist centers in the country.
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/854469

Thanks for asking.

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#6 of 56 Old 04-09-2016, 11:31 AM
 
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So the first mentions 53 girls with symptoms. They say they check the symptoms and confirm the girls are experiencing what they say they are and conclude:

"Our findings neither confirm nor dismiss a causal link to the Q-HPV vaccine"

They suggest further research is needed.

The second link is behind a login screen. Does the quote come from that link?

53 to over a 1000 is a big jump.....

Do you have any others links to share?
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The hitch occurs with number 3.
Gardasil is given to a population that can compare how they were before the vaccine and how they were after, and tell everyone about it.

DaPT, DwPT and MMR are given to a population that cannot express verbally to their parents or caretaker how they feel before and after the vaccine. The HCPs tell the parents that they do not know their child well enough to determine their behavior before and after. The answer is to give gardasil to a younger and younger population so that they cannot express how horrid the effects of the vaccine are.

And by the way, there is an article in JAMA and in Pediatrics in 1947 that states that the wP does do neurological damage, yet it was given for another 50 years in this country, even after the Pfizer Quadrigen fiasco in 1968. I have posted those references fact many times on here. Japan used the aP with success in 1970 and gave the vax after age 2 yrs; the yr Japan did that, they jumped to #1 in IMR and have remained in the top five since.
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#8 of 56 Old 04-09-2016, 12:21 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by sciencemum View Post
So the first mentions 53 girls with symptoms. They say they check the symptoms and confirm the girls are experiencing what they say they are and conclude:

"Our findings neither confirm nor dismiss a causal link to the Q-HPV vaccine"

They suggest further research is needed.

The second link is behind a login screen. Does the quote come from that link?

53 to over a 1000 is a big jump.....

Do you have any others links to share?
Sorry about the problem with Medscape. I was able to go directly into the article which I found via a search. I'll find another one. Are you thinking I made up the quote I included?

This looks like the same article, copied off of Medscape. Hope it works. http://www.laleva.org/eng/2015/11/ch..._medscape.html

Quote:
One of these is Jesper Mehlsen, MD, director of research at the Coordinating Research Centre/Syncope Unit at Frederiksberg Hospital, Denmark. This Syncope Unit has seen approximatley 250 young women and girls with symptoms that began less than 2 months after vaccination, he says.
Some of these cases have been documented by the Frederiksberg Hospital group in the medical literature (Int J Vaccines Vaccin. 2015,1:00003; Dan Med J. 2015;62:A5064; and Vaccine. 2015;33:2602-2605).
The researchers describe a "collection of symptoms consistent with pronounced autonomic dysfunction coupled with severe nonmigraine-like headache, excessive fatigue, cognitive dysfunction, gastrointestinal discomfort, and widespread pain of a neuropathic character."
"We suspect a connection to the HPV vaccine due to the close temporal association and the lack of alternative explanations," Dr Mehlsen told Medscape Medical News.
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#9 of 56 Old 04-09-2016, 12:24 PM - Thread Starter
 
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This is an article about the Scandinavian study, which looked at more than 1 million girls and found no problems. http://www.reuters.com/article/us-hp...99M14D20131023

I continue to be puzzled as to how the girls, who are actually real people and do exist, were so totally overlooked.

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#10 of 56 Old 04-10-2016, 06:38 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Bumping this up. I don't want the question to get lost.

Why did the big Scandinavian study miss these Danish girls? Are there also girls in Sweden who have had problems following HPV vaccines? Is anyone investigating using the same approach that has been fruitful in Denmark?
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#11 of 56 Old 04-10-2016, 08:42 PM
 
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This is an oldie but a goodie. Recently saw this rementioned @thinkingmomsrevolution and thought it applied.
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#12 of 56 Old 04-11-2016, 07:06 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deborah View Post
Bumping this up. I don't want the question to get lost.

Why did the big Scandinavian study miss these Danish girls? Are there also girls in Sweden who have had problems following HPV vaccines? Is anyone investigating using the same approach that has been fruitful in Denmark?
Bumping this up again.
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#13 of 56 Old 04-12-2016, 11:54 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Deborah View Post
Bumping this up again.
I looked at both articles.

I don't see how the larger study can be evaluated without knowing exactly what kind of data they used.

I can understand why the Danes wanted another study.
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#14 of 56 Old 04-12-2016, 05:44 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I looked at both articles.

I don't see how the larger study can be evaluated without knowing exactly what kind of data they used.

I can understand why the Danes wanted another study.
Me too. Undoubtedly the doctors who have been studying the girls with health problems do have access to the full-text of the study. They don't seem to be convinced that the study settles the question of serious reactions following Gardasil.

One of the doctors involved found herself attacked because she was raising concerns. This link goes to her response to the attack. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...nKGMkJiP-0b2CQ

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#15 of 56 Old 04-12-2016, 05:47 PM - Thread Starter
 
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From her response, page 4.
Quote:
I want to voice my ever increasing feeling of our considerable inabillity to be nuanced and balanced when discussing vaccines – both their efficacy and side effects. We are in desperate need of a shift in paradigm, a groundbreaking one, or the future of public confidence in vaccines will be lost.

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#16 of 56 Old 04-13-2016, 06:22 AM
 
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Yes. That response exactly characterizes my attitude and frustration with the general tone of people who characterize vaccine concerns as "anti-science."

It means they don't truly understand what "science" is, and how it may or may not intersect with the needs of policy makers.
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#17 of 56 Old 04-13-2016, 10:08 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Yes. That response exactly characterizes my attitude and frustration with the general tone of people who characterize vaccine concerns as "anti-science."

It means they don't truly understand what "science" is, and how it may or may not intersect with the needs of policy makers.
I was thinking of you as I cut that quote.

Louise Brinth is learning the hard way that vaccine science is a special sort of beastie.
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#18 of 56 Old 04-22-2016, 07:28 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Bumping up the discussion of vaccine injury.

Is it real or imaginary?
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#19 of 56 Old 04-22-2016, 10:26 PM
 
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Bumping up the discussion of vaccine injury.

Is it real or imaginary?
I dont know how case could possibly be made that vaccine injury was completely imaginary.

I live in a world where my 12 year old was taught to administer an epi-pen to a child she babysat...just in case that child should encounter a peanut shell on the playground. I know a girl who can get potential anaphylactic shock from pushing an elevator button. Both of these children, by the way, who don't know each other, have practicing scientists as parents.

I'm not suggesting these are vaccine caused...it has never come up in discussion. But I AM saying that people can be delicate, and my civilization doesn't routinely deal with that by letting them die. So any one of a number of components could be dangerous to SOMEone. If you vaccinate enough people, you're bound to run into them.
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somehow, i don't think NVICP would pay out for an 'imaginary' disablement/permanent injury from a vaccination that actually has documentation by a dr the vaccine caused X.

The injury could be, 'imaginary' to someone who doesn't believe such negative things occur after vaccines.
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#21 of 56 Old 04-24-2016, 12:17 PM
 
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One of my coworkers daughter was given DPT She had full on reaction. Was DX by the hospital as Vax reaction. Was DX by her own doctor as Vax reaction. No one questioned it. She is now 18 and has the mind of 18 month old.

In my son's PreK he had a classmate whose sister had the DPT and had a full on reaction. DX by everyone as a reaction. Her brain was damaged and she will not walk on her own ever and has limited speech and limited mental capacity.

Both families were so stressed by the upkeep of their child that they opted not to sue the Pharm. They could and they were advised to do it but they didn't have the strength to face what they knew would be a slog. And it is also limited to how much the pharms pay anyway.

My friend's son got his 'catch up shots' when he was 3. It was 5 vaccines. Absolutely perfect before the shots. He shut down immediately. She said "I lost him that week" he was dx with autism afterwards.


My godson had a seizure after his MMR. One set of doctors said it was a full on Vax reaction. His pediatrician staff told her that her son had probably been holding his breath and that's why he passed out. Right. A baby held his breath to get attention. Right. I was furious and was all over that nonsense and said, please stop vaccinating. He now has tics and other issues.

My close friend's daughter had a similar reaction to my god son. She now needs special services.

Those are just people from my super close world. There are others with vax damaged children but they are friends of friends. You know the ones you see at the Christmas parties etc.

I am one person. Shall I draw that Venn diagram?

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somehow, i don't think NVICP would pay out for an 'imaginary' disablement/permanent injury from a vaccination that actually has documentation by a dr the vaccine caused X.

The injury could be, 'imaginary' to someone who doesn't believe such negative things occur after vaccines.
It really is all "imaginary" isn't it? What we are always told on how they "know" vaccines are so super safe!
VARES doesn't count, so those aren't real reactions!
No mandatory reporting so if a dx is made no one really knows or cares!

It's imaginary to me to think this is all know!!!
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#23 of 56 Old 04-24-2016, 01:42 PM
 
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My sister did not sue for her daughter's juvenile psoriatic arthritis/seizures/autism because her daughter was given SSDI right away. I had given my sister a referral to an attorney who handled those cases. A genetic search on both sides of the family showed no link. It is all a co-incidence.

As an adult, she has had to fight for services.
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#24 of 56 Old 04-30-2016, 04:18 PM - Thread Starter
 
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How do we know if problems following vaccinations are connected to the vaccinations or due to something else?
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#25 of 56 Old 05-01-2016, 02:06 AM
 
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How do we know if problems following vaccinations are connected to the vaccinations or due to something else?
It's an excellent point. In a large population (eg the millions who get vaccinated annually) unlikely looking coincidences will happen.

This is why medical researchers continue to monitor the vaccination program, look for correlations which might point to problems, and consider physical mechanisms that could explain certain reactions.

Sometimes they find stuff which is convincing enough to result in a change of vaccine (eg the narcolepsy incidents in Europe, or OPV). Sometimes they repeatedly find nothing (eg no link between autism and vaccines).
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How do we know if problems following vaccinations are connected to the vaccinations or due to something else?
We don't. On a a parental level, though, I would not further chance it. If my child had what looked like a severe vaccine reaction post vaccine, neither he nor any siblings would get further vaccines? Why risk it?

On a real level, the diseases my child is likely to encounter if left unvaxxed are chicken pox, flu, pertussis. I would chance all those diseases over a significant vaccine reaction any day.
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#27 of 56 Old 05-01-2016, 04:52 AM
 
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This is why medical researchers continue to monitor the vaccination program, look for correlations which might point to problems, and consider physical mechanisms that could explain certain reactions.

Sometimes they find stuff which is convincing enough to result in a change of vaccine (eg the narcolepsy incidents in Europe, or OPV). Sometimes they repeatedly find nothing (eg no link between autism and vaccines).
To a certain degree this is using people as guinea pigs. This is fine if the person knows this and still wants vaccines...but unacceptable if people don't. This is why vaccines should never be coerced.

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#28 of 56 Old 05-01-2016, 05:04 AM
 
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Sometimes they find stuff
Stuff?? Like, evidence of REAL HARM to someone? that is not just some 'stuff'..that is someone's LIFE.
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#29 of 56 Old 05-01-2016, 06:51 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Stuff?? Like, evidence of REAL HARM to someone? that is not just some 'stuff'..that is someone's LIFE.
It is sad. It seems as though situations where vaccine reactions are being admitted they are still discounted in some way and treated as unimportant. For example, this article tilts towards the flu itself causing narcolepsy ALONG with some cases from the vaccine... http://sciencenordic.com/study-expla...use-narcolepsy
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#30 of 56 Old 05-01-2016, 10:16 AM
 
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I think the DPT shot changed after the people in my life had their daughters damaged by it. I'm not saying it was because of them but they got their shots in 98/99 and I believe there were a lot of reactions and they went back and changed the formula.
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