Dead in here. Do you think the lines are drawn and there is just less to discuss? - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 269 Old 10-16-2016, 07:55 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Dead in here. Do you think the lines are drawn and there is just less to discuss?

Dead in here.

I know there are lots of reasons why...but I am interested in exploring if the idea the lines are drawn is one of them.

A number of moons ago, perhaps earlier in the internet era, people did come here for information and to try and sort out together what was what.

The internet has been around a while now...and either you buy the party line, don't, or are somewhere in between. Either way, short of truly compelling evidence, you are settled in your opinion. There is not really much left to discuss.

"So let's leave it alone, 'cause we can't see eye to eye
There ain't no good guy, there ain't no bad guy
There's only you and me and we just disagree" Dave Mason

or

"I’m through with doubt
There’s nothing left for me to figure out
I’ve paid a price
And I’ll keep paying

I’m not ready to make nice
I’m not ready to back down
I’m still mad as hell and
I don’t have time to go round and round and round"

Dixie chicks.

Have a good Sunday, all!!

There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#2 of 269 Old 10-16-2016, 08:48 AM
 
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I think there are two or three factors.

There aren't very many people left who are willing to actively post of the side of vaccines in this forum. It is hard work. Most places, if you want to support vaccines, all you need to do is say "science" and then say mean things about people who criticize vaccines. Here you've got to actually have credible arguments.

Plus, I think there are some very strong arguments being presented, quite coherently, on the vaccine critics end. The point about the scientific consensus around eugenics/racism was deeply upsetting to the vaccine critics, mostly because it made a big hole in the wonders of scientific consensus, but also because it really is a distasteful picture of where science can go wrong. Painful to people who really want to believe you can trust modern majority rule science.

Finally, lately, links to blog articles from the leading vaccine supporters are not met with positive responses--the demands that people speak in their own voices rather than just quoting from someone else and then saying "what do you think?" are inhibiting the starts of new threads. The same thing happens in the other direction. When someone links to a blog by a vaccine critic we get complaints about it being rude or abusive or anti-woman or unscientific.

Just some thoughts on why things might currently be sort of peaceful.

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#3 of 269 Old 10-16-2016, 04:01 PM
 
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I have noticed that many discussions have become predictable; we have hashed out many points of view regarding vaccines.

Over the last few months I have found many issues to post, but I know what the responses will be, so I leave them out.

We have a waiting game going with the SB277 court case; the movie "Vaxxed" is on tour, and much of what they are doing has all ready been discussed.

The movie, "Vaxxed, ..." is on a long list of nominees for documentary film for the Academy.

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#4 of 269 Old 10-16-2016, 08:21 PM
 
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I think that it is quiet in here is a reflection of what is going on in the media.

No point in throwing money around trying to compete with what is a circus of an election. Oh sure there are the usual flu season predictions - "THE. WORST.FLU.SEASON.EVER.GET.YOUR.FLU.SHOT.TODAY" kinda stuff. But putting out "the sky is falling again because of the anti-vaxxers" is just going to get buried under wikileaks emails and accusations of sexual harassment/assault. They might be saving it for after the election.

No stories in the media, no fodder for the blogs, nothing to see here folks.

I am also hoping that maybe with all the personal stories coming from the VAXXED social media accounts, the wind has been taken out of the vaccine pusher's sails (talking about the corporate entities and not people here).
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#5 of 269 Old 10-16-2016, 09:26 PM
 
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Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post
Dead in here.

I know there are lots of reasons why...but I am interested in exploring if the idea the lines are drawn is one of them.

A number of moons ago, perhaps earlier in the internet era, people did come here for information and to try and sort out together what was what.

The internet has been around a while now...and either you buy the party line, don't, or are somewhere in between. Either way, short of truly compelling evidence, you are settled in your opinion. There is not really much left to discuss.

"So let's leave it alone, 'cause we can't see eye to eye
There ain't no good guy, there ain't no bad guy
There's only you and me and we just disagree" Dave Mason

or

"I’m through with doubt
There’s nothing left for me to figure out
I’ve paid a price
And I’ll keep paying

I’m not ready to make nice
I’m not ready to back down
I’m still mad as hell and
I don’t have time to go round and round and round"

Dixie chicks.

Have a good Sunday, all!!
Well, I think some people really wanted to "debate" and increased guidelines for civility make that less fun.

Lord only knows where it'll be after the election.

Myself, I was just out communing with the super moon. My friends who interest themselves in such things tell me we are beginning an energy shift.
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#6 of 269 Old 10-17-2016, 05:48 AM
 
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I have noticed that too... It feels almost like the quiet before the storm.
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#7 of 269 Old 10-17-2016, 07:36 AM
 
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As think I've said before, just because of time constraints, I pretty much only respond to posts when they involve a very narrow, specific topic, and I can respond based on what's in the post and what's in my own brain. (I might read a single linked article if it's something I'm particularly interested in.) It seems like there are fewer of those posts lately. Which is fine, but it's why I don't post much.
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#8 of 269 Old 10-17-2016, 10:06 AM
 
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Back to term time at uni and I'm teaching a full load for the first time! Thought I was busy before - nothing to now!

Silence is very far from agreement, and there are so many good arguments against a lot of what's posted here. But like Jennifer said there's just only so much energy I can expend on these boards at times.

Kittens are still cute.
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#9 of 269 Old 10-18-2016, 10:11 AM
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If y'all get bored, we can always add a debate section.
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#10 of 269 Old 10-18-2016, 11:38 AM - Thread Starter
 
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If y'all get bored, we can always add a debate section.
So we can play beat each other up for who knows what end? Nah. I am done with that.

Do it if you want to, though. Truly I know you need to do what you need to do for boards to survive/thrive.
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#11 of 269 Old 10-18-2016, 11:57 AM
 
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So we can play beat each other up for who knows what end? Nah. I am done with that.

Do it if you want to, though. Truly I know you need to do what you need to do for boards to survive/thrive.
That isn't how I interpret a debate section. If you watch debate team competitions, for example, that's not how it is.

I see it as just being more open to a bigger variety of topics instead of being bound by the fairly narrow constraints here (no advocating, etc).

Let's be honest, this forum is already basically a debate forum.... we are just restricted on what topics we can discuss and how we present them (and no, I do not just mean mandatory vaccination which I know would still not be allowed in a debate section).

It could be fun to try it out. Of course, anyone who wasn't interested wouldn't have to participate.

The narrow constraints here does make the forum pretty boring at times, tbh.
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#12 of 269 Old 10-18-2016, 12:09 PM - Thread Starter
 
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That isn't how I interpret a debate section. If you watch debate team competitions, for example, that's not how it is.

.
It would depend on how cricket envisioned a debate section. Looser rules and moderation have historically resulted in nastiness on MDC.
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#13 of 269 Old 10-18-2016, 12:20 PM
 
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That isn't how I interpret a debate section. If you watch debate team competitions, for example, that's not how it is.

I see it as just being more open to a bigger variety of topics instead of being bound by the fairly narrow constraints here (no advocating, etc).

Let's be honest, this forum is already basically a debate forum.... we are just restricted on what topics we can discuss and how we present them (and no, I do not just mean mandatory vaccination which I know would still not be allowed in a debate section).

It could be fun to try it out. Of course, anyone who wasn't interested wouldn't have to participate.

The narrow constraints here does make the forum pretty boring at times, tbh.
Could you give some specific examples of topics you feel are neglected?

I find that many of my attempts to broaden topics fall flat.

For example, I started a thread to look at whether science makes policy or policy makes science, with examples. Not of interest.

Many threads that are started have 1 or 2 posts and that is all. Sometimes they are on points that aren't usually discussed.
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#14 of 269 Old 10-18-2016, 12:36 PM
 
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As a very recent example I think the "CDC" bird flipper could have been fun to discuss. I knew it would not fit here and get flagged, and it got flagged in the only other section we have to discuss topics with members who aren't just VOS. Which...ok. It's fine in VOS but think it could have been interesting to discuss with INV members too. I've had NUMEROUS threads in this section get either closed down completely or that had to be completely reworded and changed the focus of because people flagged it for advocating, etc. I've even messaged @Deborah more than once about it. Usually, I think it's just pettiness from some members, if I'm being honest. The threads themselves were not nasty or rude, but still got flagged.

I think having a "debate" section that still held the core rules of the forum (no personally attacking or name calling, no advocating for mandatory vaccines, etc) but with a much more broad allowance of a variety of topics and a little less hand holding from the mods could be fun and interesting. There have many times where I thought a certain article was interesting but decided not to bring it here because it would only really fit with VOS under the current forum guidelines.

Just my 2 cents, anyway.
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#15 of 269 Old 10-18-2016, 12:53 PM
 
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NO to any debate section!!!!!!! - my opinion and I thought this was expressed by many members on here as to why they DID NOT want it!
One reason to not want to be on here! And flippant remarks that kittens are cute is deeply offensive, a medical choice can not, nor should it be ridiculed with nonsense remarks like these, again IMO. To vaccinate is a deeply personal & serious matter. Other place are for cute kittens!!!

Other topics, have always (IMO) been a way to stretch advocating, plain & simple! Flip of the CDC, perfect example and reason to NOT participate! This should be serious concern and issues related to members not frivolous childish need to chit-chat. There are numerous other places if one is lonely and needs to engage with those of the opposition.

IRL deaths tend to keep some off of here & busy and no need to have to come on & explain.

Many DO read when they are not posting.

If this is only to drive numbers, that very sad!

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#16 of 269 Old 10-18-2016, 01:40 PM
 
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Well I don't think it's a secret that I think it's plain silly that adult people who clearly have very different opinions can't debate them or advocate for their opinions, so I'm all for it.
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#17 of 269 Old 10-18-2016, 02:02 PM
 
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Well I don't think it's a secret that I think it's plain silly that adult people who clearly have very different opinions can't debate them or advocate for their opinions, so I'm all for it.
You should be THRILLED, there are numerous places to do just that!
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#18 of 269 Old 10-18-2016, 02:29 PM
 
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I'm all for a debate section. To be totally honest, I don't understand why this section isn't a debate section, nor do I understand how to reasonably draw a line between what's discussion of a topic between people who disagree about it (permissible) and what's "debate" (impermissible). But I accept that that ship has sailed.

If we do have a separate debate forum, I think it should have the same standards of civility as the main forum--no nastiness or personal attacks, and minimal sarcasm. Which should be fine, because those things aren't necessary for debate.
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#19 of 269 Old 10-18-2016, 04:30 PM
 
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If y'all get bored, we can always add a debate section.
Way to stir the chili, @CricketVS The irony of you starting this, um, debate hasn't escaped me. Anyway, if you go for it, you have my support.
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#20 of 269 Old 10-18-2016, 05:46 PM
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Way to stir the chili, @CricketVS The irony of you starting this, um, debate hasn't escaped me. Anyway, if you go for it, you have my support.
My comment was pretty tongue in cheek, which is why I added the devilish smiley.

We would need a large percentage of those who are active in the vaccination forum to want this for me to consider it.
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#21 of 269 Old 10-18-2016, 06:37 PM
 
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As a very recent example I think the "CDC" bird flipper could have been fun to discuss. I knew it would not fit here and get flagged, and it got flagged in the only other section we have to discuss topics with members who aren't just VOS. Which...ok. It's fine in VOS but think it could have been interesting to discuss with INV members too. I've had NUMEROUS threads in this section get either closed down completely or that had to be completely reworded and changed the focus of because people flagged it for advocating, etc. I've even messaged @Deborah more than once about it. Usually, I think it's just pettiness from some members, if I'm being honest. The threads themselves were not nasty or rude, but still got flagged.

I think having a "debate" section that still held the core rules of the forum (no personally attacking or name calling, no advocating for mandatory vaccines, etc) but with a much more broad allowance of a variety of topics and a little less hand holding from the mods could be fun and interesting. There have many times where I thought a certain article was interesting but decided not to bring it here because it would only really fit with VOS under the current forum guidelines.

Just my 2 cents, anyway.
The problem, my dear, is not in your choice of topic. I've got a long-running thread on the "50% reduction in cervical cancer" business, which is definitely controversial and yet it hasn't been moved or shut down. I recently put up a discussion on another thread about the scientific consensus around eugenics science, another controversial topic that some people found very offensive, but it is still in the main forum.

It is possible to discuss controversial topics.

I can't think of any way that I can explain what you are doing that gets your threads moved without coming across as snide. So I won't try.

Perhaps you should read your initial post(s) in a couple of the threads that did get moved and pretend that you are on the other side of the argument?

I'm sure I aggravate people sometimes...that isn't the problem.
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#22 of 269 Old 10-18-2016, 06:51 PM
 
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The problem, my dear, is not in your choice of topic. I've got a long-running thread on the "50% reduction in cervical cancer" business, which is definitely controversial and yet it hasn't been moved or shut down. I recently put up a discussion on another thread about the scientific consensus around eugenics science, another controversial topic that some people found very offensive, but it is still in the main forum.

It is possible to discuss controversial topics.

I can't think of any way that I can explain what you are doing that gets your threads moved without coming across as snide. So I won't try.

Perhaps you should read your initial post(s) in a couple of the threads that did get moved and pretend that you are on the other side of the argument?

I'm sure I aggravate people sometimes...that isn't the problem.
Maybe it's less to do with teacozy's writing style, and more to do with who is more likely to kick up a fuss.
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#23 of 269 Old 10-18-2016, 06:53 PM
 
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Just wanted to add: we don't need a debate forum. We need people who are willing to discuss difficult and controversial topics in a calm, respectful tone.

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#24 of 269 Old 10-18-2016, 07:02 PM
 
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The problem, my dear, is not in your choice of topic. I've got a long-running thread on the "50% reduction in cervical cancer" business, which is definitely controversial and yet it hasn't been moved or shut down. I recently put up a discussion on another thread about the scientific consensus around eugenics science, another controversial topic that some people found very offensive, but it is still in the main forum.

It is possible to discuss controversial topics.

I can't think of any way that I can explain what you are doing that gets your threads moved without coming across as snide. So I won't try.

Perhaps you should read your initial post(s) in a couple of the threads that did get moved and pretend that you are on the other side of the argument?

I'm sure I aggravate people sometimes...that isn't the problem.
If you read what I wrote you would see that my posts on this "general" forum were not removed for being controversial or nasty. They got flagged because the wording came across as "advocating" and other silliness, not because the thread topics were rude.

There are lots of threads on here that non-vaxers have made that technically shouldn't be on this forum since threads are supposed to be about helping parents make a vaccine decision. Like about Senator Pan running from the vaxxed film crew, whether it was censorship or not for the festival in Houston to pull the Vaxxed documentary, whether a snarky graph that has nothing at all to do with vaccines is a meme or not, and other things. Like I said, I think most of the flags on my threads were out of pettiness.

FTR, I agree with Jessica and Rosemary that I don't see anything wrong with advocating for a position. Whether that is that spreading out vaccines is better, not vaccinating at all is better, delaying is better, or vaccinating on schedule is better. What is wrong with that? If I really wanted to I could find tons of posts and threads where the poster is advocating a position and flag them.

I don't think debate section has to be synonymous with "free for all sling fest with no rules or moderation" like some seem to be interpreting. Basic rules about personal attacking, etc would still apply.
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#25 of 269 Old 10-18-2016, 07:03 PM
 
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Maybe it's less to do with teacozy's writing style, and more to do with who is more likely to kick up a fuss.
Yes, exactly.
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#26 of 269 Old 10-18-2016, 07:15 PM
 
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Plus, sometimes people (well, I, anyway) want a break from talking about thimerosal, or aluminum, or autism, or gardasil and HPV for the 1000th time without having to worry about having it get flagged and taken down for not fitting in the forum or whatever. I don't see what's so wrong with having a (vaccine related) fluff thread every now and then or a thread about what is going on socially in the vaccine communities at large that may not directly be about helping parents make a decision to vaccinate or not.

I think we either need to expand what "general" vaccination forum means or make a separate forum that allows for a more broad variety of posts.

This thread asked why the forum is so dead. Reality is, without the pro-vaccine posters here to contribute, the forum essentially dies and is pretty boring. I know not everyone cares, but there are presumably at least some non-vaccine members here that prefer a lively discussion. Not all of us are happy with the discussion forum set up and I think our points of view should be taken into consideration if having an active forum is something you (general) care about.
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#27 of 269 Old 10-18-2016, 07:23 PM
 
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Yes, I see.

I was pretty sure that you all feel as though you are being picked on.

I never flag anything except spam, and there is no way for me to know what is being flagged.

So perhaps you are being picked on.

This is a different problem from whether we should have a debate forum, frankly.
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#28 of 269 Old 10-18-2016, 07:35 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deborah View Post
Yes, I see.

I was pretty sure that you all feel as though you are being picked on.

I never flag anything except spam, and there is no way for me to know what is being flagged.

So perhaps you are being picked on.

This is a different problem from whether we should have a debate forum, frankly.
FTR, I do not think you are one of the people flagging threads out of pettiness. I do think it happens a lot more to the pro-vaccine members than the non-vaccine members. Like I said, there are a ton of threads and posts started and written by non-vaccine members that objectively do not fit the guidelines that don't get removed (or presumably flagged). We all know there are members here who have openly stated that they don't think the pro-vaccine position should be allowed here at all and I think this is one of their ways of "retaliation" against us posting here.

Maybe if the non-vaccine members' threads were as scrutinized and flagged as the pro-vaccine member's threads they'd be singing a different tune about wanting a more broad forum.

Keep the rules about respect, etc the same except for allowing advocating of a position and a more broad allowance of thread topics and I think that would be fine. I really am not sure why members here would have an issue with that?
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#29 of 269 Old 10-18-2016, 09:08 PM
 
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I think we either need to expand what "general" vaccination forum means or make a separate forum that allows for a more broad variety of posts.
Yes, this. It seems like with numerous sub-forums and a general forum, there should be someplace where a vaxxer can have a civil debate with a non-vaxxer about a vaccine-related issue without risking being flagged for impermissible debating or advocacy. I struggle to understand why such debates can't happen in the general forum, but if they can't, then a separate forum would be nice.

I fully understand the need for rules and moderation. I have in the past left the forum for several months at a time because of nastiness, sarcasm, and personal attacks here. I appreciate that there seems to be less of that now. But people advocating positions, presenting arguments, etc.? That seems completely fine, and essential for a lively forum.
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#30 of 269 Old 10-18-2016, 10:01 PM
 
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Just wanted to add: we don't need a debate forum. We need people who are willing to discuss difficult and controversial topics in a calm, respectful tone.
Point well taken.
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