Dose does NOT make the poison - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 21 Old 02-06-2017, 12:29 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Dose does NOT make the poison

http://www.ourstolenfuture.org/NewSc...oseeffects.htm

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Two core patterns in this emerging research violate simplistic uses of "the dose makes the poison."
  • One arises because sensitivity to contamination is not the same at all stages of the life of an individual. The same low dose that may pose no risk to an adult can cause drastic effects in a developing fetus.
  • The second involve dose-response curves in which low levels of a contaminant actually cause greater effects than higher levels, at the same stage of development. These dose-response curves, shaped like inverted-U's, are called "non-monotonic dose-response curves."
This is one of the ubiquitous vaccine defenses. No matter how nasty the contaminant, no matter if the vaccine is being recommended during pregnancy, "it is a tiny amount, therefore safe."

Let's discuss.
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#2 of 21 Old 02-06-2017, 12:31 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Interview with a scientist on some of the new discoveries http://www.loe.org/shows/segments.ht...11&segmentID=1

Quote:
VANDENBERG: The way that traditional toxicologists look at chemicals is they look at: does this chemical kill, or does this chemical prevent pregnancy completely. It doesn't address - does this chemical change the subtle organization of the brain? So we found chemicals that are working at that really low level, can take a brain that's in a girl animal and make it look like a brain from a boy animal, so, really subtle changes that have really important effects.
GELLERMAN: So it goes against the notion of 'the dose makes the poison.'
VANDENBERG: Exactly. So, when the dose makes the poison, the more of it that you're exposed to, the more toxic it is. In this case, very, very small doses act like hormones, and that's why they have effects at low doses.
GELLERMAN: So how small an amount are we talking about here?
VANDENBERG: We're talking about chemicals that can act in the part-per-billion or part-per-trillion level. So part-per-trillion would be 1/20 of a drop of water in an Olympic-sized swimming pool.
And then there is synergy between all these different chemicals in our bodies. Exciting stuff!
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#3 of 21 Old 02-06-2017, 12:35 PM - Thread Starter
 
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https://www.greenbiz.com/blog/2009/0...emicals-policy This one is the most interesting because it is looking at the problem from the point of view of a socially responsible investor. A capitalist, in other words.

Quote:
Scientists are careful to caution that the presence of an alien chemical doesn't necessarily mean some health problem is preordained and that is sometimes the case. But by the same token, there's no doubt we know astonishingly, depressingly little about the effects of small amounts of most chemicals. Even worse, the science emerging in recent years signals that the more we learn, the more we ought to be concerned. Most chemicals are severely under-researched and most of the health effects research conducted has been done by testing high doses of chemicals on healthy adult laboratory animals. The assumption underlying much of this high dose testing is that as doses go up, effects do, and vice-versa. But this is not necessarily so; effects can show up at low doses that are absent at high ones; consequently, high dose testing, by missing effects that can show up at low doses, provides misleading assurances about chemical safety.

Even worse, the mixtures to which we're commonly exposed have rarely been tested for their additive or synergistic effects. Some of the modest amount of mixtures research even suggests that when chemicals are mixed at levels believed to be individually safe, the cumulative effect can be toxic.

Because relatively little research has been done on exposures to chemicals in the womb and early in childhood, public assurances of chemicals' safety rest on a base of "lamppost science." The expression stems from the apocryphal tale of the policeman encountering a drunk on his hands and knees under a light post. When queried about his behavior, the drunk tells the officer he's lost his keys and is looking for them. The officer asks, "You lost them here?" The drunk responds, "No, I lost them over there, but the light's better over here."

Newer science showing undesirable chemical effects on development in the womb -- shedding light into areas that hitherto have been scientifically dark -- may uncover the keys to disturbing increases in various human health problems. Ongoing research is leading some science and medical experts to conclude that increases in autism, childhood asthma and learning disorders may be linked to chemical exposures at levels well below what is considered safe by traditional "dose makes the poison" thinking.
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#4 of 21 Old 02-06-2017, 12:39 PM - Thread Starter
 
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One last one. http://criverwatch.org/wordpress/201...ke-the-poison/

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Narita et al. report that a key step in immune reactions, the release of histamine and cytokines by mast cells, is exacerbated by very low levels of environmental contaminants, similar to the effect of estradiol. These experiments, done in cell culture, used levels of the contaminants well within the range of human exposure. The peak response was seen at approximately 0.1 parts per billion (10-10 molar). By the time the dose rose to 10 parts per billion (10-8 molar), the response disappeared. This experiment was done with mouse and human cells in culture.
At doses far beneath the current EPA safe level, Takano et al. found that the phthalate DEHP increases the immune response of mice to a common allergen. Clinical scores of an allergic reaction were strongest at intermediate doses(4 and 20 μg). A dose of 100 μg (yellow line) was no different than the control (purplish blue line).
Digging around into the aluminum question, I've come across indications that aluminum has dangerous effects at very low levels because it isn't JUST a matter of toxicology. For example, aluminum can substitute for iron in some biological pathways. Iron the body can use. Aluminum it cannot use. At what level is it safe to have a substance our body needs replaced by a substance our body does not need? Has this been studied?
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#5 of 21 Old 02-07-2017, 01:41 PM - Thread Starter
 
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More on this fascinating topic. Will the vaccine defenders ever admit that there could be problems with small amounts?

http://www.ewg.org/sites/bodyburden1...doses_more.php

Quote:
In this context, the standard response by industry representatives to stories involving chemical contamination is that these “trace” doses are too tiny to cause adverse effects. The science, however, leads to the opposite conclusion. Adverse health effects from low dose exposures are occurring in the population, caused by unavoidable environmental contamination with PCBs, DDT, dioxin, mercury and lead.
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Many adverse effects are caused by low dose exposures that occur during critical periods of fetal development or infancy but do not manifest until later in life. Often these effects arise from insults that trigger a cascade of effects that alter the proper functioning of organ systems, sexual development, behavior or reproduction. Some examples include alterations of nervous system development that play out as behavioral problems or IQ deficits; or disruption of normal hormonal signaling that results in fertility problems, birth defects of reproductive organs, early puberty, or cancers of the reproductive organs. Alteration of immune system function can also occur, leading to increased susceptibility to illness and disease. Scientists are finding that many chemicals in widespread use today cause these types of effects at doses well below those thought to cause “no effect” in high dose regulatory studies.
This is a particularly good overview and much broader than some articles on the topic.
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#6 of 21 Old 02-07-2017, 01:45 PM - Thread Starter
 
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A balanced discussion (how rare!) that gives both sides of the argument on dosage and toxicity and ends up suggesting that we go with the precautionary principle. http://www.actionbioscience.org/envi...trautmann.html
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#7 of 21 Old 02-07-2017, 01:47 PM - Thread Starter
 
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This one is good because it is brief and hits the high points in a very simple, but clear way. http://grist.org/living/low-doses-of...an-high-doses/
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#8 of 21 Old 02-10-2017, 04:05 PM - Thread Starter
 
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It occurred to me that the whole idea of "poison" is seriously outdated.

Consider the puzzle of carcinogens. Or asbestos. Or the very odd problems arising from use of Fosomax. https://www.drugwatch.com/fosamax/lawsuits.php

The controversy around glyphosate causing cancer. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/carey-..._13679052.html And hundreds or thousands of other substances that turn out to cause problems over a long time span.

If our only criteria for safety is the size of the dose that will kill or seriously injure someone in a fairly short amount of time, then we are opting for an approach to toxicology that will leave a lot of people ill or dead...eventually.

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Last edited by Deborah; 02-10-2017 at 04:07 PM.
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#9 of 21 Old 02-11-2017, 12:43 PM - Thread Starter
 
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We've all see the argument:

aluminum in vaccines is in the form of a compound. mercury in vaccines is in the form of a compound. table salt is a compound and chlorine, which is part of that compound, is highly toxic...just like metallic mercury. THEREFORE, mercury or aluminum in a compound is safe, just like table salt is safe. although the last bit isn't ever said outright, because it is a lie.

there are millions of substances which are highly toxic despite being compounds. here is a list of some of these substances.

https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owa...RDS&p_id=10647

Acetaldehyde............................| 75-07-0 | 2500 Acrolein (2-Propenal)...................| 107-02-8 | 150 Acrylyl Chloride........................| 814-68-6 | 250 Allyl Chloride..........................| 107-05-1 | 1000 Allylamine..............................| 107-11-9 | 1000 Alkylaluminums..........................| Varies | 5000 Ammonia, Anhydrous......................| 7664-41-7 | 10000 Ammonia solutions (greater than 44 | | percent ammonia by weight)............| 7664-41-7 | 15000 Ammonium Perchlorate....................| 7790-98-9 | 500 Ammonium Permanganate...................| 7787-36-2 | 7500 Arsine (also called Arsenic Hydride)....| 7784-42-1 | 100 Bis(Chloromethyl) Ether.................| 542-88-1 | 100 Boron Trichloride.......................| 10294-34-5 | 2500 Boron Trifluoride.......................| 7637-07-2 | 250 Bromine.................................| 7726-95-6 | 1500 Bromine Chloride........................| 13863-41-7 | 1500 Bromine Pentafluoride...................| 7789-30-2 | 2500 Bromine Trifluoride.....................| 7787-71-5 | 15000 3-Bromopropyne (also called Propargyl | | Bromide)..............................| 106-96-7 | 100 Butyl Hydroperoxide (Tertiary)..........| 75-91-2 | 5000 Butyl Perbenzoate (Tertiary)............| 614-45-9 | 7500 Carbonyl Chloride (see Phosgene)........| 75-44-5 | 100 * Carbonyl Fluoride.....................| 353-50-4 | 2500 Cellulose Nitrate (concentration | | greater than 12.6 percent nitrogen....| 9004-70-0 | 2500 Chlorine................................| 7782-50-5 | 1500 Chlorine Dioxide........................| 10049-04-4 | 1000 Chlorine Pentrafluoride.................| 13637-63-3 | 1000 Chlorine Trifluoride....................| 7790-91-2 | 1000 Chlorodiethylaluminum (also called | | Diethylaluminum Chloride).............| 96-10-6 | 5000 1-Chloro-2,4-Dinitrobenzene.............| 97-00-7 | 5000 Chloromethyl Methyl Ether...............| 107-30-2 | 500 Chloropicrin............................| 76-06-2 | 500 Chloropicrin and Methyl Bromide mixture.| None | 1500 Chloropicrin and Methyl Chloride | | mixture...............................| None | 1500 Commune Hydroperoxide...................| 80-15-9 | 5000 Cyanogen................................| 460-19-5 | 2500 Cyanogen Chloride.......................| 506-77-4 | 500 Cyanuric Fluoride.......................| 675-14-9 | 100 Diastole Peroxide (concentration | | greater than 70 percent)..............| 110-22-5 | 5000 Diazomethane............................| 334-88-3 | 500 Dibenzoyl Peroxide......................| 94-36-0 | 7500 Diborane................................| 19287-45-7 | 100 Dibutyl Peroxide (Tertiary).............| 110-05-4 | 5000 Dichloro Acetylene......................| 7572-29-4 | 250 Dichlorosilane..........................| 4109-96-0 | 2500 Diethylzinc.............................| 557-20-0 | 10000 Diisopropyl Peroxydicarbonate...........| 105-64-6 | 7500 Dilauroyl Peroxide......................| 105-74-8 | 7500 Dimethyldichlorosilane..................| 75-78-5 | 1000 Dimethylhydrazine, 1,1-.................| 57-14-7 | 1000 Dimethylamine, Anhydrous................| 124-40-3 | 2500 2,4-Dinitroaniline......................| 97-02-9 | 5000 Ethyl Methyl Ketone Peroxide (also | | Methyl Ethyl Ketone Peroxide; | | concentration greater than 60 percent)| 1338-23-4 | 5000 Ethyl Nitrite...........................| 109-95-5 | 5000 Ethylamine..............................| 75-04-7 | 7500 Ethylene Fluorohydrin...................| 371-62-0 | 100 Ethylene Oxide..........................| 75-21-8 | 5000 Ethyleneimine...........................| 151-56-4 | 1000 Fluorine................................| 7782-41-4 | 1000 Formaldehyde (Formalin).................| 50-00-0 | 1000 Furan...................................| 110-00-9 | 500 Hexafluoroacetone.......................| 684-16-2 | 5000 Hydrochloric Acid, Anhydrous............| 7647-01-0 | 5000 Hydrofluoric Acid, Anhydrous............| 7664-39-3 | 1000 Hydrogen Bromide........................| 10035-10-6 | 5000 Hydrogen Chloride.......................| 7647-01-0 | 5000 Hydrogen Cyanide, Anhydrous.............| 74-90-8 | 1000 Hydrogen Fluoride.......................| 7664-39-3 | 1000 Hydrogen Peroxide (52 percent by weight | | or greater)...........................| 7722-84-1 | 7500 Hydrogen Selenide.......................| 7783-07-5 | 150 Hydrogen Sulfide........................| 7783-06-4 | 1500 Hydroxylamine...........................| 7803-49-8 | 2500 Iron, Pentacarbonyl.....................| 13463-40-6 | 250 Isopropylamine..........................| 75-31-0 | 5000 Ketene..................................| 463-51-4 | 100 Methacrylaldehyde.......................| 78-85-3 | 1000 Methacryloyl Chloride...................| 920-46-7 | 150 Methacryloyloxyethyl Isocyanate.........| 30674-80-7 | 100 Methyl Acrylonitrile....................| 126-98-7 | 250 Methylamine, Anhydrous..................| 74-89-5 | 1000 Methyl Bromide..........................| 74-83-9 | 2500 Methyl Chloride.........................| 74-87-3 | 15000 Methyl Chloroformate....................| 79-22-1 | 500 Methyl Ethyl Ketone Peroxide | | (concentration greater than 60 | | percent)..............................| 1338-23-4 | 5000 Methyl Fluoroacetate....................| 453-18-9 | 100 Methyl Fluorosulfate....................| 421-20-5 | 100 Methyl Hydrazine........................| 60-34-4 | 100 Methyl Iodide...........................| 74-88-4 | 7500 Methyl Isocyanate.......................| 624-83-9 | 250 Methyl Mercaptan........................| 74-93-1 | 5000 Methyl Vinyl Ketone.....................| 79-84-4 | 100 Methyltrichlorosilane...................| 75-79-6 | 500 Nickel Carbonly (Nickel Tetracarbonyl)..| 13463-39-3 | 150 Nitric Acid (94.5 percent by weight or | | greater)..............................| 7697-37-2 | 500 Nitric Oxide............................| 10102-43-9 | 250 Nitroaniline (para Nitroaniline)........| 100-01-6 | 5000 Nitromethane............................| 75-52-5 | 2500 Nitrogen Dioxide........................| 10102-44-0 | 250 Nitrogen Oxides (NO; NO(2); N2O4; N2O3).| 10102-44-0 | 250 Nitrogen Tetroxide (also called | | Nitrogen Peroxide)....................| 10544-72-6 | 250 Nitrogen Trifluoride....................| 7783-54-2 | 5000 Nitrogen Trioxide.......................| 10544-73-7 | 250 Oleum (65 percent to 80 percent by | | weight; also called Fuming Sulfuric | | Acid).................................| 8014-94-7 | 1000 Osmium Tetroxide........................| 20816-12-0 | 100 Oxygen Difluoride (Fluorine Monoxide)...| 7783-41-7 | 100 Ozone...................................| 10028-15-6 | 100 Pentaborane.............................| 19624-22-7 | 100 Peracetic Acid (concentration greater | | 60 percent Acetic Acid; also called | | Peroxyacetic Acid)...................| 79-21-0 | 1000 Perchloric Acid (concentration greater | | than 60 percent by weight)............| 7601-90-3 | 5000 Perchloromethyl Mercaptan...............| 594-42-3 | 150 Perchloryl Fluoride.....................| 7616-94-6 | 5000 Peroxyacetic Acid (concentration | | greater than 60 percent Acetic Acid; | | also called Peracetic Acid)...........| 79-21-0 | 1000 Phosgene (also called Carbonyl Chloride)| 75-44-5 | 100 Phosphine (Hydrogen Phosphide)..........| 7803-51-2 | 100 Phosphorus Oxychloride (also called | | Phosphoryl Chloride)..................| 10025-87-3 | 1000 Phosphorus Trichloride..................| 7719-12-2 | 1000 Phosphoryl Chloride (also called | | Phosphorus Oxychloride)...............| 10025-87-3 | 1000 Propargyl Bromide.......................| 106-96-7 | 100 Propyl Nitrate..........................| 627-3-4 | 2500 Sarin...................................| 107-44-8 | 100 Selenium Hexafluoride...................| 7783-79-1 | 1000 Stibine (Antimony Hydride)..............| 7803-52-3 | 500 Sulfur Dioxide (liquid).................| 7446-09-5 | 1000 Sulfur Pentafluoride....................| 5714-22-7 | 250 Sulfur Tetrafluoride....................| 7783-60-0 | 250 Sulfur Trioxide (also called Sulfuric | | Anhydride)............................| 7446-11-9 | 1000 Sulfuric Anhydride (also called Sulfur | | Trioxide).............................| 7446-11-9 | 1000 Tellurium Hexafluoride..................| 7783-80-4 | 250 Tetrafluoroethylene.....................| 116-14-3 | 5000 Tetrafluorohydrazine....................| 10036-47-2 | 5000 Tetramethyl Lead........................| 75-74-1 | 1000 Thionyl Chloride........................| 7719-09-7 | 250 Trichloro (Chloromethyl) Silane.........| 1558-25-4 | 100 Trichloro (dichlorophenyl) Silane.......| 27137-85-5 | 2500 Trichlorosilane.........................| 10025-78-2 | 5000 Trifluorochloroethylene.................| 79-38-9 | 10000 Trimethyoxysilane.......................| 2487-90-3 | 1500
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#10 of 21 Old 02-11-2017, 04:23 PM
 
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Might be an interesting read for anyone interested in challenging the adage that the dose makes the poison:

http://www.ourstolenfuture.org/NewSc...0525nmdrc.html
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#11 of 21 Old 02-12-2017, 06:40 PM - Thread Starter
 
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This is an entertaining, albeit depressing example of how sound-bites like memes and tweets can be used to confuse people on risks of certain chemicals being spread around the environment. http://endocriminal.blogspot.co.uk/2...hal-dopes.html

this will make more sense if you go to the article and look at the meme being critiqued.
Quote:
Here we have naturally occurring compounds from two edible plants used as an insecticide, being compared to the active ingredient in a synthetic herbicide. Both capsaicin and allicin have documented health benefits and theraputic uses, and can be easily washed off of food. Glyphosate is the active ingredient in Roundup, a systemic herbicide formulation that contains proprietary ingredients to help it work better. It cannot be washed off. The LD50 (lethal dose 50 or median lethal dose) is used to indicate how acutely toxic a substance is. In other words, how much it would take to kill you. This has nothing to do with chronic exposure, nor does it apply to chemicals with a non-monotonic dose response.
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#12 of 21 Old 02-16-2017, 07:05 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Decided to dig into the question of carcinogens, where dose definitely has little to do with outcomes. Found this article, which starts from the difficulty of spotting cancer provoking chemicals based on the usual sort of studies, but moves on to other problems, where doses and bad outcomes aren't a straightforward match.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1255761/

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The following case studies for four of the most widespread and extensively studied environmental hazards show that (1) there is no apparent threshold for health risks with dose-response relationships over exposure ranges far below those generally used in animal studies, and, in some cases, (2) there are higher risks per unit of exposure dose at low exposure levels.
Really, any pro-vaxer who keeps claiming that "the dose makes the poison" is willfully ignorant in my opinion.
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Last edited by Deborah; 02-18-2017 at 01:12 PM. Reason: because I shouldn't call names
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#13 of 21 Old 02-17-2017, 01:29 AM
 
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This will take some time to get through but I am looking forward to doing so, thanks Deborah for your investigations!
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#14 of 21 Old 02-18-2017, 11:34 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Deborah View Post

Really, any pro-vaxer who keeps claiming that "the dose makes the poison" is a science-denier.
Lol. Gonna call you on being mildly hyperbolic. I don't think those who say the "dose makes the poison" are science deniers, although this might be an example of them either not knowing the science or deliberately not looking too closely at it because it does not support their POV.
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#15 of 21 Old 02-18-2017, 11:52 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post
Lol. Gonna call you on being mildly hyperbolic. I don't think those who say the "dose makes the poison" are science deniers, although this might be an example of them either not knowing the science or deliberately not looking too closely at it because it does not support their POV.
Well, I can't avoid that terminology on this board, because everything I've brought forward in this thread has been posted here more than once and yet people who support vaccines still say "the dose makes the poison."

How about if I invoke the three monkeys?
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#16 of 21 Old 02-18-2017, 01:04 PM
 
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Well, I can't avoid that terminology on this board, because everything I've brought forward in this thread has been posted here more than once and yet people who support vaccines still say "the dose makes the poison."

How about if I invoke the three monkeys?
Ok.

You could argue ignorance is not a good defence on this board and I would agree (at least among regular posters/lurkers).

In which case, it likely is a case of not looking at something too closely or avoiding the issue entirely because it does not suit their purposes.

The "dose makes the poison" is central to vaccine defence. I don't think it is anything they plan to give up saying, even if it is untrue some of the time, and possibly in the case of vaccines.

I do not like being misrepresented as being anti-sceince or a science denier for questioning vaccines, I doubt they like being called a science denier.

I doubt they deny all science - but I do think they pick and choose what to consider based on their belief system.

I also think there are pro-vaxxers who are decidedly vaccine advocates. Ergo, it makes no sense to focus on uncomfortable truths if it could promote a vaccine critical POV.

Note no one disagrees with you, they just do not talk about it, while going on to repeat the same lines (dose/poison) over and over again.

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#17 of 21 Old 02-18-2017, 01:11 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post
Ok.

You could argue ignorance is not a good defence on this board and i would agree (at least among regular posters/lurkers).

In which case, it likely is a case of not looking at something too closely or avoiding the issue entirely because it does not suit their purposes.

The "dose makes the poison" is central to vaccine defence. I don't think it is anything they plan to give up saying, even if it is untrue some of the time, and possibly in the case of vaccines.

I do not like being misrepresented as being anti-sceince or a science denier for questioning vaccines, I doubt they like being called a science.

I doubt they deny all science - but I do think they pick and choose what to consider based on their belief system.

I also think there are pro-vaxxers who are decidedly vaccine advocates. Ergo, it makes no sense to focus on uncomfortable truths if it could promote a vaccine critical POV.

Note no one disagrees with you, they just do not talk about it, while going on to repeat the same lines (dose/poison) over and over again.
Yes, people rarely disagree with the points I make on this board. they just slide past my posts.

But, now that I've thought it over and read what you have to say, I shouldn't go in for name calling.

I'll go back and change my earlier post to "willful ignorance."

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#18 of 21 Old 02-18-2017, 02:07 PM
 
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Yes, Deborah, where are all those lurkers out there who are reading these posts all of the time? No rebuttals to your points?
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#19 of 21 Old 02-18-2017, 02:11 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Yes, Deborah, where are all those lurkers out there who are reading these posts all of the time? No rebuttals to your points?
I suspect that I'm on ignore.
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#20 of 21 Old 02-18-2017, 02:26 PM
 
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OK, LOL!

I am also referring to those who are guests who never log in but come here to read up on what the worst of the world's antivaxers have to say. MDC has quite the internet reputation. If you are on ignore, you can be read by everyone lurking before they log in.

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"Vaccines are like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get - acute hemorrhagic edema of infancy, allergies, diabetes, eczema, petit/gran mal seizures, ADEM, AFP, ASIA, CFS, GBS, JPA, JRA, LGS, LKS, MS, POF, POTS, RA, SJS, SLE, SPD, TPI, Henoch-Schonlein purpua, fibromyalgia, Retts Syndrome, encephalitis, Hughes Syndrome, neurological damage, coma, or death."

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#21 of 21 Old 05-14-2017, 05:14 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Bumping up this thread because the "compounds" aren't elemental bit was recently posted. I'd like to direct everyone to this post with a lovely list of toxic compounds. Dose does NOT make the poison
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