Vaxxed vs unvaxxed, the full study - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 60 Old 02-23-2017, 07:06 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Vaxxed vs unvaxxed, the full study

The disappeared vaxxed vs unvaxxed study was leaked to journalist James O. Grundvig, and he published it yesterday.

Age of Autism has a decent article up on the study and summarizes the health of the two groups:

Quote:
Chronic Illness Detail:

Vaccinated children were significantly more likely than the unvaccinated to have been diagnosed with the following chronic illnesses:
7-fold higher odds of any neurodevelopmental disorder (i.e., learning disability, ADHD, or ASD)
2-fold increase in Autism Spectrum Disorder (“ASD”)
2-fold increase in ADHD
2-fold increase in learning disabilities
1-fold increase in allergic rhinitis
9-fold increase in other allergies
9-fold increase in eczema/atopic dermatitis
4-fold increase in any chronic 
illness
No significant differences were observed with regard to cancer, chronic fatigue, conduct disorder, Crohn’s disease, depression, Types 1 or 2 diabetes, encephalopathy, epilepsy, hearing loss, high blood pressure, inflammatory bowel disease, juvenile rheumatoid arthritis, obesity, seizures, and Tourette’s syndrome. However, larger samples would be needed to detect group differences in these less common conditions.

Acute Illness Detail:

Vaccinated children were significantly less likely than unvaccinated children to have had chickenpox or whooping cough (p<0.001).
Vaccinated children had a 3.8-fold increased odds of middle ear infections and a 5.9-fold increased odds of being diagnosed with pneumonia compared to unvaccinated children.
No significant differences were seen between the two groups with regard to Hepatitis A or B, high fever in the past 6 months, measles, mumps, meningitis (viral or bacterial), influenza, or rotavirus. (My bolding).
The NDD figures:

Quote:
Vaccination, Preterm Birth and Neurodevelopmental Disorders (NDDs):

In regression analyses, vaccination was associated with a significant 3.1-fold increased odds of neurodevelopmental disorders (combining the diagnoses of ASD, ADHD, and learning disability), after controlling for other factors. An important detail emerged regarding a possible synergism between vaccination and preterm birth. In a final adjusted statistical model, vaccination but not preterm birth remained associated with NDD, as defined, while the interaction of preterm birth and vaccination was associated with a 6.6-fold increased odds of NDD (95% Confidence Interval: 2.8, 15.5).
Here is the study in full, http://www.rescuepost.com/files/age-...binu-jacob.pdf
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#2 of 60 Old 02-23-2017, 08:52 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Another article on the study by Mark Blaxil, published on AoA.

http://www.ageofautism.com/2017/02/s...of-autism.html
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#3 of 60 Old 02-23-2017, 11:07 PM
 
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Very interested.
I also wonder about moms vaxed for rubella versus moms who were not and their subsequent children. I would like to see that study.
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#4 of 60 Old 02-24-2017, 07:01 AM
 
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The study is being totally dismissed by the vaccine Mafia.
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#5 of 60 Old 02-24-2017, 07:37 AM
 
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A total of 415 mothers provided data on 666 children
The study probably would have met with acceptance by the vaccine mafia had they dropped at least one family.

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#6 of 60 Old 02-24-2017, 07:52 AM
 
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Originally Posted by samaxtics View Post
The study probably would have met with acceptance by the vaccine mafia had they dropped at least one family.

Well, one commenter I saw claimed that it was a basically invalid type of study to start with. Which is odd. The scientists involved CHOSE an invalid study type? It was then accepted for review by a journal instead of just being tossed because it was an invalid study type?

And yet the pro-vaccine folks keep claiming that a pile of mostly epidemiological studies PROVE beyond a shadow of a doubt that vaccines have no link with autism. That isn't what epidemiological studies are supposed to do.
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#7 of 60 Old 02-25-2017, 09:34 AM
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@Deborah
Quote:
The study is being totally dismissed by the vaccine Mafia.
They may be able to at least partially corroborate their position by demanding that the data discussed below be immediately released to independent investigators. Anyone seen any discussion of this?

Vaccine Whistleblower, Exposing Autism Research Fraud at the CDC by Kevin Barry, ESQ

Below are a few excerpts of statements made by Dr. Thompson, regarding study data (SEED) that he describes elsewhere (pg53) as "Disney on steroids."

page 28
Just search the CDC and then SEED and then autism and you should be able to pull up a description of the study.

and

Well that's the gold mine. That's the mother-load of mother loads.

and

Right now it's under lock and key and only the principal investigator can access it. But if you can get Posey to ask questions about this study, um, this will become, the, ya know, like (laughing) the leak in the dam.

Page 31

"we are sitting on this gold mine"

Has anyone ran across any discussion of this, from the pro side, or anywhere? I haven't really looked.
Much focus has centered around the discussion of the measles data, but there is so much more in these phone conversations.

Original post restored
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#8 of 60 Old 02-25-2017, 01:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bow View Post
@Deborah They may be able to at least partially corroborate their position by demanding that the data discussed below be immediately released to independent investigators. Anyone seen any discussion of this?

Vaccine Whistleblower, Exposing Autism Research Fraud at the CDC by Kevin Barry, ESQ

Below are a few excerpts of statements made by Dr. Thompson, regarding study data (SEED) that he describes elsewhere (pg53) as "Disney on steroids."

page 28
Just search the CDC and then SEED and then autism and you should be able to pull up a description of the study.

and

Well that's the gold mine. That's the mother-load of mother loads.

and

Right now it's under lock and key and only the principal investigator can access it. But if you can get Posey to ask questions about this study, um, this will become, the, ya know, like (laughing) the leak in the dam.

Page 31

"we are sitting on this gold mine"

Has anyone ran across any discussion of this, from the pro side, or anywhere? I haven't really looked.
Much focus has centered around the discussion of the measles data, but there is so much more in these phone conversations.

Original post restored
According to teacozy, all the relevant documents have been released (10,000 pages) and Orac and friends have read all of them and there is nothing there to support any concerns about vaccine safety.

I don't believe them due to their general lack of civilized behavior. I also don't have time to read 10,000 pages of documents.
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#9 of 60 Old 02-25-2017, 02:49 PM
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@Deborah

Quote:
According to teacozy, all the relevant documents have been released (100,000 pages) and Orac and friends have read all of them and there is nothing there to support any concerns about vaccine safety.
The SEED data, is not part of the 100,000 pages that have been released, to the best of my knowledge. Pro vax minions, I suspect, will tell you that there is no interest in analysis of the SEED data regarding vaccines, because the issue has been settled.

More information to follow as time permits.

The information is all in the book, including Dr. Thompson's dismay at Poul Thorsen's significant other, being involved with this data.
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#10 of 60 Old 02-25-2017, 03:17 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bow View Post
@Deborah



The SEED data, is not part of the 10,000 documents that have been released, to the best of my knowledge. Pro vax minions, I suspect, will tell you that there is no interest in analysis of the SEED data regarding vaccines, because the issue has been settled.

More information to follow as time permits.

The information is all in the book, including Dr. Thompson's dismay at Paul Thornson's significant other, being involved with this data.
I should read that book...

Poul Thorsen I think. Who is his significant other? Besides his beloved motorcycle, bought with taxpayer money, of course.
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#11 of 60 Old 02-26-2017, 08:43 AM
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@Deborah
Quote:
Poul Thorsen I think. Who is his significant other? Besides his beloved motorcycle, bought with taxpayer money, of course.
Wow, I really murdered that. Yes, Poul Thorsen, corrected above, thanks. Also, I think it was 10,000 documents that were turned over? Anyway, page 5
Quote:
The missing $1 million dollar CDC flowed through Aarhus Uiversity and Odense University Hospital in Denmark. Apparently, Dr. Thorsen and Dr. Shendel have been dating the entire time Dr. Thorsen has been under indictment.
and

Quote:
Thompson says she spent the summer of 2003 "in Denmark money laundering with her boyfriend."
Dr. Schendel relocated to Denmark after leaving the CDC and currently is employed at Aarhus University.
page 28 (speaking of the SEED data)

Quote:
Now there's one study that has been published from it, just describing the study and the sample so, it is, Diana Schendel is the first author, 2012 paper, and you can just look it up.
and

Quote:
But, it's a Diana Schendel paper and it just pissed me off. I read it for the first time on Friday and she references two of her papers with Thorsen. I was just like, are you guys *ucking insane, I'm like are you guys really this *ucking insane.
Is it not pathetic that we have this study (topic of this thread) and there is data (like Disney) sitting under lock and key at the CDC? What's wrong with this picture?

edit to add two more
page 26
Quote:
So, um, what's amazing, now this is what's going to be shocking to you, it shocked the crap out of me. They have ya know six different sites interviewing data and and um they all put in proposals to do studies. So far there is about sixty proposals in, um, for people ready to do studies. Not a single one of them looks at vaccines, not one! (laughing).
page 27
Quote:
"How are you guys going to answer the question when you know they want these environmental studies and want to look at all these risk factors. What are you going to say when you have twelve hundred autism cases and a bunch of controls and you never looked at vaccines and you have all of their vaccine records?
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Wow! Thanks for sharing all that @Bow .
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#13 of 60 Old 05-04-2017, 11:56 PM
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From AoA

http://www.ageofautism.com/

Important note from the editors. The vax/unvax study is now-officially published in a peer reviewed journal. The full text is available on line HERE at the Journal of
Translational Science.

Pilot Comparative Study on the Health of Vaccinated and Unvaccinated 6-12 Year Old US Children
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Originally Posted by Bow View Post
From AoA

http://www.ageofautism.com/

Important note from the editors. The vax/unvax study is now-officially published in a peer reviewed journal. The full text is available on line HERE at the Journal of
Translational Science.

Pilot Comparative Study on the Health of Vaccinated and Unvaccinated 6-12 Year Old US Children
The vaccine mafia will be trying to get it retracted. Shall we open a betting pool? In the meantime, the study needs to be downloaded and saved by lots of people.

Am I paranoid?
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#15 of 60 Old 05-05-2017, 10:19 AM
 
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I am so happy this has been done. I would like to see a follow up into adulthood, as many autoimmune diseases take time to percolate. People have automimmune antibodies well before they show symptoms. It means nothing to me that the kids were not at increased risk for autoimmunity as the oldest children were only 12 and most autoimmune diseases manifest in adulthood.

I would also like to insert my anecdote. Me and two of my friends had boys around the same time. We all breastfed our babies, and had vaginal births. My son has never needed antibiotics and is almost 2 years old. My friends son has ear tubes from chronic ear infections, and had a bout of pneumonia. My friends other son has crohnic yeast issues, and been on antibiotics twice for ear infections. I thought prevnar prevents ear infections and pneumonia and yet most kids in my community come down with ear infections and pneumonia despite this. My foster son was also fully vaxed and went on to have ear infections and a bout of pneumonia. Anecdotally my kids are far more robust, and they come from a mother with a compromised immune system and compromised microbiome. I also took immune suppressing drugs while pregnant and breastfeeding my son. He never gets infections and colds last like 3 days.

ETA: My daughter is partially vaxed. Had a bad reaction (high pitched cry, vacant expression, no eye contact, poor feeding for almost 3 days after) to her 2 month series, and we skipped DTAP at her 4 month series, and then stopped. She has poor vision tracking, and some minor neurological issues, such as lordosis of her spine due to poor control of her core, and chronic constipation due to poor nerve communication. We have worked with physio and extremely clean diet and she has made massive improvements over the last year. I will always wonder if the vaccines may have done something to her brain. And I am very glad I stopped vaccinating her.

Oh and with my daughters pregnancy I was totally healthy and in unmedicated remission for my IBD when I was pregnant with her, but did get a flu shot while pregnant. With my son I was on a class D medication to keep my IBD quiet. My son was a full 2 pounds heavier, and is much more robust and healthy than my daughter, although my daughter compared to her peers is quite healthy.
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#16 of 60 Old 05-05-2017, 02:03 PM
 
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These are the kind of terrible studies that make the people sharing them look bad.

1) They didn't verify the conditions studied using medical records. It was solely based on parental reports (many of whom are likely not unbiased in regards to vaccines).

2) It was an anonymous internet survey which is not reliable in proving causation at all.

3) The sample size was WAY too small to draw true conclusions between vaccinated and unvaccinated health outcomes. Autism alone effects roughly 1 in 60 something kids. You would need huge numbers for this kind of data.

4) This was a study looking at homeschooled kids and NOT representative of the general population. Eg: nearly 40% of the children in the study were completely unvaccinated which, again, is not at all representative of the general population.

5) Back to the issue about not having medical records, the survey does not ask or say or determine WHEN the children got vaccinated. Before or after they started showing symptoms? We have no idea.

6) It was funded by Generation Rescue and CMSRI. If any similar pro-vaccine organization funded a vaccine study, members here would be screaming corruption, conflicts of interest, etc.

In summary, this study is a bunch of useless malarky.

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#17 of 60 Old 05-05-2017, 02:13 PM
 
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Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
These are the kind of terrible studies that make the people sharing them look bad.

1) They didn't verify the conditions studied using medical records. It was solely based on parental reports (many of whom are likely not unbiased in regards to vaccines).

2) It was an anonymous internet survey which is not reliable in proving causation at all.

3) The sample size was WAY too small to draw true conclusions between vaccinated and unvaccinated health outcomes. Autism alone effects roughly 1 in 60 something kids. You would need huge numbers for this kind of data.

4) This was a study looking at homeschooled kids and NOT representative of the general population. Eg: nearly 40% of the children in the study were completely unvaccinated which, again, is not at all representative of the general population.

5) Back to the issue about not having medical records, the survey does not ask or say or determine WHEN the children got vaccinated. Before or after they started showing symptoms? We have no idea.

6) It was funded by Generation Rescue and CMSRI. If any similar pro-vaccine organization funded a vaccine study, members here would be screaming corruption, conflicts of interest, etc.

In summary, this study is a bunch of useless malarky.
Teacozy, thanks for sharing (others) opinions and analysis! Greatly appreciated.

I continue to suspect that the hard push for forced vaccination of children in the US is to make sure that a larger study comparing vaccinated and unvaccinated children will be impossible to carry out. But then I'm a paranoid anti-vaxer.

By the way, do read the last few posts on the McCarthy thread BEFORE you talk about yelling fire in a theater...

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#18 of 60 Old 05-05-2017, 02:16 PM
 
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Yes, I knew that someone had used the "fire in a theater" argument. I'll admit that I brought it up first, so me bad! But I wasn't arguing in favor of limiting speech based on this argument. Is it discrimination?
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I will start taking vaccine defenders attacks on vaccine critical studies seriously...

after I see a vaccine defender tear into one of "their" studies with the same energy and passion.
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A really good study to critique would be that really big study looking for auto-immune diseases following HPV vaccines. They looked really hard and couldn't find any problems...

Thousands and thousands of sick girls all over the world were less than delighted...
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@Deborah , this is not a "new" study. It was released a while ago in a different journal and then retracted. There was a lot of discussion then on the study and its many weaknesses, why it was retracted, etc.

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#22 of 60 Old 05-05-2017, 02:42 PM
 
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I notice you aren't responding to the issues brought up about the study. Interesting. Or do you not agree that it's problematic for a study that is trying to conclude that vaccines may cause certain medical conditions to not even bother determining whether the vaccine was even administered prior to the conditions or symptoms even presenting or not?

Or that medical records are important to look at? Especially in light of certain stories like that of Brian Hooker. You know the man who blamed the MMR vaccine for his son's autism despite his son's medical records showing he had been developmentally delayed since 4 months of age and had not been meeting virtually any of his milestones *well* before he ever received his MMR vaccine?

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#23 of 60 Old 05-05-2017, 02:54 PM
 
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@Deborah , this is not a "new" study. It was released a while ago in a different journal and then retracted. There was a lot of discussion then on the study and its many weaknesses, why it was retracted, etc.
Yes. I was aware of that.

It was retracted because it made vaccines look bad.

And truly crappy studies that make vaccines look good continue to be published and acclaimed.

This isn't science. And claiming that a corrupt and dishonest process IS science shows that you are either naive or part of the corruption.

For the umpteenth time, when someone reacts negatively to the same vaccine twice or even three times, is that evidence of a "real" vaccine reaction?

Did I claim that this is a perfect study? Nope. Did I claim that it is a conclusive study? Nope.

However, you are claiming that it is totally worthless. I suspect confirmation bias.
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Well, I disagree than an anonymous internet parent survey study on a very specific select group of families not at all representative of the general population which didn't verify any medical information by looking at medical records or even determine when the vaccines were administered in relation to the conditions described is not an essentially worthless study.

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ~ Christopher Hitchens

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Last edited by teacozy; 05-05-2017 at 03:04 PM.
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#25 of 60 Old 05-05-2017, 04:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
Especially in light of certain stories like that of Brian Hooker. You know the man who blamed the MMR vaccine for his son's autism despite his son's medical records showing he had been developmentally delayed since 4 months of age and had not been meeting virtually any of his milestones *well* before he ever received his MMR vaccine?
Brian Hooker's child was probably vaccinated from birth. So not meeting milestones (although I'd like to know how you personally know this) prior to crashing with the MMR doesn't mean other vaccines didn't prime the environment for the crash that happened with the MMR.

And to be really frank, I really don't like it when people like you talk about vaccine injured kids with any familiarity (Not that I believe you have any).

More insults to injury.
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#26 of 60 Old 05-05-2017, 04:33 PM
 
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To be frank, he put his son's story out there. He's put up personal videos of his son for millions to see. The information about his medical records is in the public record due to his vaccine court case (which he lost).

SRH is Hooker's son.

Quote:
At four months of age, Dr. Heller-Bair noted “fail” for three developmental milestones that SRH had not achieved. (Ex.
35, p. 24.) At six months of age, there are again notations indicating that SRH failed to achieve
three milestones. (Id.) At nine months, he failed two milestones, as he was not using
“mama/dada” and could not sit up alone. (Id.) At his twelve-month check-up, on February 25,
1999, he could only speak two words, and was not yet able to drink from a cup.

SRH received his 15-month well child examination on May 26, 1999, and was found to
be “healthy.” (Ex. 35, p. 13.) However, at this visit his developmental progress chart indicates
that SRH had not achieved most of the expected milestones. (Id., p. 24.) His Denver II
developmental progress chart indicates that he could not speak six words, could not run or climb
stairs, could not remove garments or use a spoon, and could not stack two cubes, -- indeed, he
failed all but one of the developmental milestones for 15 months.

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ~ Christopher Hitchens

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#27 of 60 Old 05-05-2017, 05:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
To be frank, he put his son's story out there. He's put up personal videos of his son for millions to see. The information about his medical records is in the public record due to his vaccine court case (which he lost).
Brian's case was dismissed due to the statute of limitations. Portraying it him "losing the case" is fake news.

Here's a quote regarding the case by Brian from an interview:

Quote:
BH: When my family is featured in the pro-pharma media, that’s really hard. My son’s vaccine injury case was just thrown out of the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program and there were several bloggers that blogged about it, and went through the court document and tried to discern the medical history of my son, which is really none of their business. And they were trying to say I was making fraudulent statements about my son’s vaccine injury in the movie Vaxxed. It was really frustrating. My son didn’t ask for that. My wife didn’t ask for that. I’m really really glad that the vaccine injury case is over with because then the level of exposure is done. In terms of documents floating around. It’s really horrible. If he would have been awarded damages then it would have been sealed, nobody could see it, but since he wasn’t awarded damages, the decision was made public.
http://truthbarrier.com/2017/01/17/d...fighting-evil/
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#28 of 60 Old 05-05-2017, 05:22 PM
 
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Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
These are the kind of terrible studies that make the people sharing them look bad.

1) They didn't verify the conditions studied using medical records. It was solely based on parental reports (many of whom are likely not unbiased in regards to vaccines).

2) It was an anonymous internet survey which is not reliable in proving causation at all.

3) The sample size was WAY too small to draw true conclusions between vaccinated and unvaccinated health outcomes. Autism alone effects roughly 1 in 60 something kids. You would need huge numbers for this kind of data.

4) This was a study looking at homeschooled kids and NOT representative of the general population. Eg: nearly 40% of the children in the study were completely unvaccinated which, again, is not at all representative of the general population.

5) Back to the issue about not having medical records, the survey does not ask or say or determine WHEN the children got vaccinated. Before or after they started showing symptoms? We have no idea.

6) It was funded by Generation Rescue and CMSRI. If any similar pro-vaccine organization funded a vaccine study, members here would be screaming corruption, conflicts of interest, etc.

In summary, this study is a bunch of useless malarky.
I semi agree with you. This is not a study to put much stock in, due to some (#3, 4 and 6) of the above. That being said, I disagree it makes the person sharing it look bad (shrug). I don't think pro-vaxxers who post studies with small numbers or by pro-vax organizations look bad, although I might dismiss the study if the issues are too significant.

I do think there is a significant derth of quality unvaccinated versus vaccinated health studies (and we do not need to go into why - I don't care why) which is unfortunate.
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#29 of 60 Old 05-05-2017, 06:45 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samaxtics View Post
Brian's case was dismissed due to the statute of limitations. Portraying it him "losing the case" is fake news.

Here's a quote regarding the case by Brian from an interview:

http://truthbarrier.com/2017/01/17/d...fighting-evil/
Hooker did not say that. It was a note added by goodness knows who and is not true. He was able to amended his petition. Maybe take some time to actually skim the ruling before accusing someone of spewing "fake news".

Quote:
However, Respondent filed a motion to dismiss this case, pointing to significant evidence
that the first symptoms of the initial onset of SRH’s ASD took place prior to May 10, 1999.
(ECF No. 82.) That would mean that Petitioners’ sole claim in this case at that time, that the
initial onset of SRH’s ASD was vaccine-caused, would be barred under the Vaccine Act’s statute
of limitations, § 300aa-16(a)(2), because the petition in this case was not filed until May 10,
2002, three years after May 10, 1999. Therefore, apparently in light of Respondent’s argument
concerning the statute of limitations, Petitioners, rather than dismiss their case as untimely filed,
chose instead to file a Second Amended Petition in which they added an alternative theory of
causation.
That is, in their Second Amended Petition, Petitioners added an alternative pleading
that “[i]f the Special Master were to find that there were earlier symptoms of autism [that is,
earlier than May 10, 1999], then the Petitioners allege that the vaccinations that [SRH] received
within the three years prior to filing the Petition significantly aggravated his autism.” (2nd Am.
Pet, ¶ 18.)
At the end when summarizing the ruling:
Quote:
After studying the extensive evidence in
this case, I am convinced that the opinions provided by Petitioners’ experts in this case, advising
the Hooker family that there is a causal connection between SRH’s vaccinations and either the
initial causation or aggravation of SRH’s ASD, were quite wrong. Nevertheless, I can
understand why SRH’s parents found such opinions to be believable under the circumstances. I
conclude that the Petitioners filed this petition in good faith.

Thus, I feel deep sympathy for the Hooker family. Further, I find it unfortunate that my
ruling in this case means the Program will not be able to provide funds to assist this family, in
caring for their child who suffers from a serious disorder.

However, I must decide this case not on sentiment, but by analyzing the evidence. Congress designed the Program to compensate only the families of individuals
whose injuries or deaths can be linked causally, either by Table Injury or presumption or by
preponderance of “causation-in-fact” evidence, to a listed vaccine. In this case, the evidence
advanced by Petitioners has fallen far short of demonstrating such a link
. Accordingly, I
conclude that the Petitioners in this case are not entitled to a Program award on SRH’s behalf.

IT IS SO ORDERED
NOT dismissed because of statute of limitations. It was dismissed because the evidence, including the medical records, was against him.

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ~ Christopher Hitchens

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#30 of 60 Old 05-05-2017, 08:39 PM
 
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I feel very sad for Brian Hooker. His child was injured by vaccines, and now he is being filet-o-fished by the pro-vax forces (almost all of whom do not have a vaccine injured child or a child affected by a VAD)

There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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