Vaccines, Risk, and Moral Outrage - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 32 Old 03-20-2017, 09:14 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Vaccines, Risk, and Moral Outrage

Last year, researchers in California made a stunning discovery that moral outrage directly affects our perception of risk. The more "in the wrong" we consider a parent's motivations, the more at risk their children are.

I don't have access to the entire study, but this article describes it well.

Quote:
So here's another possibility. It's not that risks to children have increased, provoking an increase in moral outrage when children are left unattended. Instead, it could be that moral attitudes toward parenting have changed, such that leaving children unsupervised is now judged morally wrong. And because it's judged morally wrong, people overestimate the risk.
Study participants were surveyed and asked how at risk a child was. It turns out that a child left alone unintentionally was perceived to be at a lower risk than the child left alone because the mother was busy having an amorous liaison.

So what does this all have to do with the vaccine issue?

Check out this article.

Quote:
The thing to take into account here is that your sister's unvaccinated kids are a threat not only to other children and babies who may be too young to receive certain vaccinations, but also to pregnant guests, elderly guests and people recovering from diseases such as cancer. No one should be worried on his or her wedding day that a child is spreading germs and preventable diseases to people who are immunocompromised.
Scroll down to see a commenter broaching an excellent---and unaddressed---point:

Quote:
Then - shouldn't she also exclude the immunocompromised, the elderly, and the very young - because they, too have low- or no-vaccination status and can put each other at risk?
The bride's moral outrage compels her to see the deliberately unvaccinated as ticking time-bombs, automatically infected of course , out to spread disease. But what if you're not vaccinated for the morally acceptable reason of a doctor's dispensation? Well, then. Welcome to my wedding!

It reminds me of that dad in California who was OUTRAGED at non-medical exemptions while sending his medically exempt son to school. But if he sees the non-medically exempt are infectious little germ bombs, then how is his medically exempt son any different?

What are your thoughts? Have you seen other examples of moral outrage tainting risk perception in the vaccine discussion?
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#2 of 32 Old 03-20-2017, 12:19 PM
 
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We see it on MDC occasionally. Example:
Is it discrimination?


Don't you know we are more evil that those who lack resources (money, transport) to vaccinate because we are choosing to not vaccinate? Some of this is even institutionalized. The homeless may go to school without any vaccine papers in California, but everyone else is in big trouble (up to being excluded from school) for failure to provide vaccine documentation. For the record, I am pro the homeless being able to go to school without documentation - I wish that right extended to everyone.


http://www.cde.ca.gov/ls/he/hn/cefimmunization.asp

"The federal McKinney-Vento Homeless Assistance Act requires schools to enroll new students who are homeless even if their immunization records are missing or unavailable at the time of enrollment."

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#3 of 32 Old 03-20-2017, 03:00 PM
 
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Quoting Turquesa
Quote:
What are your thoughts? Have you seen other examples of moral outrage tainting risk perception in the vaccine discussion?
I think a lot of that came up in the huge thread on the topic of whether it was okay to discriminate against children whose parents don't have them vaccinated on schedule.

It is the whole basis of the very recent idea that the only protected classes are those who do not CHOOSE to be a certain way. I'll give an example of what I mean by CHOOSE. In a situation where there is a shortage of men or a shortage of women, some same sex couples may have made their choice on the basis that it is better to have someone with whom to be intimate rather than go for many years with no intimacy at all. That is a choice. And sometimes people who are thoroughly lesbian or homosexual may decide to practice celibacy for a variety of reasons, also a choice.

If you go on the basis that the only people who deserve to be protected against discrimination are those who are helpless to change their status, then you would get some pretty darn weird behaviors protected. For example, if a "black" person is light-skinned enough to pass, then is it okay to discriminate against them if they insist on remaining as "black"? After all, they have a choice! An inconvenient and painful choice, but nevertheless, it is a choice. If a woman falls in love with another woman, despite being mostly heterosexual in her tastes, can we discriminate? And on what basis? Is it a choice to fall in love or is it a choice to be born heterosexual? The more I think about this, the more insane it becomes.

People don't choose to be born into poor families, but if you are born into a poor family, expect discrimination throughout your life. Bad housing, poor diet, miserable health care, yucky jobs, crappy schools. All the way down the line.

This is another one of those games where the people with power get to decide who gets messed with and why.

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#4 of 32 Old 03-20-2017, 03:38 PM
 
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Just thought of another interesting example.

Is it okay to discriminate against rather than enable breastfeeding? After all, in our current culture, breastfeeding is a CHOICE. There are alternatives.

Therefore employers are under no obligation to support breastfeeding mothers in any way. Airlines can harass women who try to breastfeed onboard. Women who breastfeed in public can be hassled and told they have to go nurse in the restroom. And so on.

Just label something as a choice and you can pick on the labeled minority as much as you want.
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#5 of 32 Old 03-20-2017, 04:43 PM - Thread Starter
 
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The bottom line is that the motivations behind a choice don't determine how risky the choice is. Only raw data can do that. But we humans aren't rational creatures. So we Just. Don't. Get. It.

If immunocompromised Grandma shows up at the wedding with undetected shingles, she'll get a free pass over deliberately unvaxxed little Freddy who showed up with chicken pox. And if Uncle Bob, (remember Uncle Bob? ), kisses Hep B onto the bride, he'll be forgiven, while cousin Mary, unvaccinated for Hep B, has to sit out the wedding.
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#6 of 32 Old 03-21-2017, 12:19 PM
 
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From the link in the OP:

Quote:
Part of what makes weddings so special is the intergenerational element. When I got married, my 93-year-old grandmother flew 1,000 miles to be there. I never would have felt comfortable with other guests bringing their unvaccinated children (even if that guest was my sister), but I would have felt downright horrible if it had somehow resulted in my grandmother or my friend's newborn (who made a brief appearance) getting sick.
Well, if grandma is 93 years old she's probably had every childhood disease. I would have been more concerned about making a 93 year old woman fly a thousand miles.

And major gatherings such as weddings are no place for a newborn irrespective of whether childhood diseases are present.

But let's exclude unvaccinated children, even remarkably in the absence of any diseases, to accommodate everyone else's poor choice. SMH.

This has to be more manufactured BS to engineer pro-vax groupthink.
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#7 of 32 Old 03-21-2017, 06:48 PM
 
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Originally Posted by samaxtics View Post
From the link in the OP:



Well, if grandma is 93 years old she's probably had every childhood disease. I would have been more concerned about making a 93 year old woman fly a thousand miles.

And major gatherings such as weddings are no place for a newborn irrespective of whether childhood diseases are present.

But let's exclude unvaccinated children, even remarkably in the absence of any diseases, to accommodate everyone else's poor choice. SMH.

This has to be more manufactured BS to engineer pro-vax groupthink.
The vaccine enthusiasts frequently talk about how we have all forgotten how AWFUL it used to be with diseases running rampant.

The real ignorance is on how relaxed most people were about normal childhood illnesses. The big terror was over stuff like yellow fever.

read some old accounts of epidemics...
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#8 of 32 Old 03-22-2017, 05:56 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Turquesa View Post

So what does this all have to do with the vaccine issue?

Check out this article.



This article is about someone seeking advice as she is worried about her sister bringing her unvaccinated kids to a wedding.

There are a few delusional beauties in the response:

"First, I think that even though you're probably overwhelmed with wedding-related details right now, at some point in the future, if you haven't already, you should consider having a chat — or perhaps a third, or 13th chat — with your sister about her decisions. Show her the statistics. Help her to understand that her kids aren't more important than other kids, and in fact she's doing them a great disservice by assuming their bodies aren't vulnerable to disease."

Good grief.

I could comment on every point here, but the bolded is the one that is most jaw dropping. If my sister tried to tell me my kids were not more important than other kids, I would promptly inform her that on a population basis, my kids were not more important than other kids, but they were just as important as other kids, were more important to me, and hopefully the whole family, and that I will be putting their needs first in medical decisions. I would also be quite hurt, and would indeed wonder about the depth of my sisters love for my children if she said anything so callous and did not apologise/further explain herself.

another gem:

"And as the article about Texas points out, a third of students at some private schools now are unvaccinated. (Several other states report similar findings.) This means that, in some cases, kids are at an even greater risk of contracting and spreading germs. In the case of your wedding, it is your responsibility to your guests to prevent something like that from happening."

No, it is not your job to prevent people from spreading germs at your wedding.

First off, the obvious, unvaccinated children are not more likely to be "spreading germs" and even if they are, it is just on VAD, and it is on an incredibly small scale.

Second of all, I hope these people get that most adults are not up to date on their vaccines - and that includes vaccines for the items that circulate the most: flu and pertussis (also some of our least effective vaccines).

Lastly, no. No, you are not responsible for keeping your guest germ free. I suppose you have a vague moral responsibility (not legal - unless there are state requirements) to ensure some basics: soap for the washroom, proper food handling, etc...but that does not extend to screening all guests about their health choices or even their health status. A wedding is a huge party...if you really should not get sick for one reason or another, then you should not go.

She had two pieces of advice to the woman whose sisters had unvaccinated children. The first was sound - ban all kids. This is really the only way you can have a wedding and not include your sisters children without possibly doing serious harm to your relationship with your sister and her children. She also said that the woman could try and have other kids at the wedding, but not her sisters kids, and either try to explain her way around it or tell her flat out that the reason for their exclsuion was their unvaxxed status. Given that fact that it is extremely likely the sisters knows that:

unvaxxed does not equal sick
and
most adults are not up to date on their vaccines

She will likely see this as exactly what it is : someone getting on their high horse and putting their self-righteousness on an issue above family.

I predict family discord.
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#9 of 32 Old 03-22-2017, 09:07 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I predict family discord.
I suspect that it's going on already. It's likely that this woman already has some personal misgivings with her sister and is willing to go to some petty, control-freakish lengths to get back at her. For many, weddings are stressful times when all of those ugly Family Issues surface.

My SIL is rabidly pro-compliance and doesn't bat an eyelash when my unvaxxed nephew shows up at family reunions. Families pick and choose their Issues.
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#10 of 32 Old 03-22-2017, 11:15 AM
 
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Interesting points about weddings and conflicts.

From many years of reading advice columns, I can confirm that weddings are frequently seen as opportunities to pick on relatives. Any issue will do.

On the other hand, the vaccine pushers have to know that they are stirring up social conflict, claiming that it is all about public health, when it is mostly about a sordid mix of control and profit.
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#11 of 32 Old 03-22-2017, 01:33 PM
 
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I suspect that it's going on already. It's likely that this woman already has some personal misgivings with her sister and is willing to go to some petty, control-freakish lengths to get back at her. For many, weddings are stressful times when all of those ugly Family Issues surface.

My SIL is rabidly pro-compliance and doesn't bat an eyelash when my unvaxxed nephew shows up at family reunions. Families pick and choose their Issues.
I had written a post along these lines and then lost it.

I will say that I think this story rates a 9/10 on the BS meter. But if on the very very slim chance it is genuine, I agree there already has to be discord. If you love and cherish your sibling, you wouldn't exclude their children for this irrational reason. If Bridezilla already has a tumultuous relationship with her sibling, then she might be looking for any reason to deny and hurt her.

We have a few Penn&Teller style pro-vaxxers in our extended family and they've never, to my knowledge, tried to exclude my kids.

Bridezilla's sister's kids are an infant and a toddler. They wouldn't have received the full series anyway. Bridezilla most likely doesn't know the vaccination status of her other guests yet we are to believe it is only an issue in regard's to her sister's children? Puh-leaze!
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#12 of 32 Old 03-22-2017, 01:38 PM
 
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@Turquesa and @samaxtics

the vaccine pushers are probably reading this thread and planning a meeting:

HOW TO MAKE EVERYONE HATE THEIR VACCINE REFUSING RELATIVES!

Because the strategy so far isn't working with everyone...

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#13 of 32 Old 03-22-2017, 07:53 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Bridezilla's sister's kids are an infant and a toddler. They wouldn't have received the full series anyway. Bridezilla most likely doesn't know the vaccination status of her other guests yet we are to believe it is only an issue in regard's to her sister's children? Puh-leaze!
This. And seriously, if she cared enough to grandstand with this political statement, she would have demanded vaccine records from everybody there. At least where flu shots are concerned, her guest list would have shrunk substantially.

And yea. This story sounds too absurd to be true.
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#14 of 32 Old 03-23-2017, 05:30 PM
 
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This is a great one to add to this thread. http://thinkingmomsrevolution.com/pa...butivaccinate/

Quote:
The Ontario Ministry of Health and Long-Term Care’s “big things” media campaign is nothing more than emotional manipulation through parent-shaming. They claim the campaign is an “attempt to celebrate the not-always-perfect parenting moments because when you vaccinate you’re taking care of what truly matters,” but the not-so-subtle implications are that the only horrible parents are those who choose not to vaccinate and that vaccinating (for anything, apparently) is somehow a protection against child molesters, malnutrition, and drunk drivers. This position is such a ridiculous oversimplification of the risks and benefits of giving healthy children dozens of medical treatments that have the potential to cause permanent devastation that it’s downright irresponsible.
One bright spot in the campaign is a Canadian writer who pointed out (correctly) that vaccine makers have unprecedented legal protections and that expecting others to vaccinate is selfish when there is risk of significant harm for dong so. And she chose to pair her tweet with a gif of Alicia Silverstone winking, raising the irony level by a factor of two: Alicia Silverstone sits on the board of directors for World Mercury Project.
I'm glad that way back in the day when I was a young and not particularly expert mother, I wasn't encouraged to feel morally smug because I made sure my baby got jabbed every couple of months.

What IS the world coming to?
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#15 of 32 Old 03-23-2017, 05:46 PM
 
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Originally Posted by samaxtics View Post
From the link in the OP:



Well, if grandma is 93 years old she's probably had every childhood disease. I would have been more concerned about making a 93 year old woman fly a thousand miles.

And major gatherings such as weddings are no place for a newborn irrespective of whether childhood diseases are present.

But let's exclude unvaccinated children, even remarkably in the absence of any diseases, to accommodate everyone else's poor choice. SMH.

This has to be more manufactured BS to engineer pro-vax groupthink.
So she's not worried about all the people on the plane that grandma was exposed to? But the unvaxed kids are disease vectors LOL.
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#16 of 32 Old 03-31-2017, 10:28 AM
 
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This discussion is pretty similar https://forums.theknot.com/discussio...nated-children

However, I went searching for articles on excluding the unvaxed and most of them had to do with outbreaks in schools. So I think the push to socially isolate is building fairly slowly.
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#17 of 32 Old 03-31-2017, 04:43 PM
 
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#18 of 32 Old 04-11-2017, 09:30 AM
 
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Young mother gets slammed and censored for asking about possible vaccine dangers.
http://www.ageofautism.com/2017/04/a...nd-autism.html

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Most of the members are young moms, many in their late 20s and early 30s, and live on the other side of the country. Several of them are just starting their parenting journey. Two Fridays ago, around 10pm my time, one of the young moms’ posts caught my eye. She was asking about vaccines. It wasn’t really a question, but more of a statement with a simple request, “I am seeing more articles like this one…it piqued my interest…it concerns me and made me wonder what more a mom like me needs to know…”
What everyone should know is that we are incredibly fortunate to have a space where vaccine risks can be discussed without being bashed or censored!
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#19 of 32 Old 04-11-2017, 10:01 AM
 
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Here is an article about vaccine "fear" around the world. They do not admit that anyone could possibly be concerned because of actual vaccine reactions. https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...lly-determined

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Once we have a better sense of the global scope of vaccine hesitancy, we need to develop a deeper understanding of the precise nature of the problem in key areas where hesitancy is high. Are people opposed to certain specific vaccines or are they opposed to the concept in general? Are they suspicious of pharmaceutical companies and governments? Do they have spiritual or religious objections to vaccination? Are they skeptical that vaccines really work? What are the demographic features of the relevant populations? Are they mostly mothers with young children? Are they mostly educated and wealthy or less educated and lower income people?
Note: there is no demographic of people who have directly experienced vaccine injury or possible vaccine injury. We don't exist!
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#20 of 32 Old 05-02-2017, 02:45 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm giving this a bump due to a recent tragedy of a Portuguese teenager dying of measles.

The news story first looked like this: http://portugalresident.com/measles-teen-dies-in-lisbon

Quote:
Her mother is apparently "anti-vaccines" and a fan of homeopathy, said the paper.
Now we know this: http://portugalresident.com/measles-...riday%E2%80%9D

Quote:
Inês Sampaio’s mother was “anti-vaccine” and believes in homeopathy, national papers initially suggested.

This was overly simplistic. In fact, Amélia Sampaio is not anti-vaccine . She has vaccinated her other two children, it was simply that Inês suffered anaphylactic shock as a baby when given her first vaccines, and the family was “advised” not to repeat the experiment.
Now that the matter has been clarified and we know that they mother was simply following medical advice not to vaccinate, I'm curious how people will respond with a hole blown through their moral outrage.
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#21 of 32 Old 05-02-2017, 04:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Turquesa View Post
I'm giving this a bump due to a recent tragedy of a Portuguese teenager dying of measles.

The news story first looked like this: http://portugalresident.com/measles-teen-dies-in-lisbon



Now we know this: http://portugalresident.com/measles-...riday%E2%80%9D



Now that the matter has been clarified and we know that they mother was simply following medical advice not to vaccinate, I'm curious how people will respond with a hole blown through their moral outrage.
My vote is that the vaccine enthusiasts will either go quiet about the truth or keep screaming the false story.

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#22 of 32 Old 05-02-2017, 07:31 PM
 
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Caplan goes for moral outrage rather than scientific evidence.
Quote:
Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia was among the first to mandate employee vaccination, adopting a policy in 2009 after several infant deaths were linked to health-care workers’ flu infections. Bioethicist Art Caplan, who was then at Penn, helped develop the mandate.
Now director of medical ethics at NYU Langone Medical Center, Caplan made a video that was emailed to people in that health system last fall — including Tiefer — explaining why getting a flu shot is a “moral imperative” for health-care workers. Caplan asserted they have a duty to “do no harm,” protect the vulnerable, and serve as a role model.
“The videos were full of exhortations and guilt-tripping — not full of data or scientific evidence,” Tiefer said.
In an interview, Caplan acknowledged that the flu vaccine's effectiveness varies from year to year because the formulation is based on viral strains that are expected to circulate. This year’s shot is 43 percent effective against the influenza A variety that has dominated the season, which is now on the wane, according to the government.
The effectiveness “is uneven, there’s no denying that,” Caplan said. “But it’s going to help, and it won’t hurt. We’re talking about getting a shot, not amputating a limb.”
The longer vaccine mandates such as NYU’s are in force, the more studies should be able to document the protective effects, Caplan said.
Studies first, mandates second. If science made policy...but we all know that money makes policy when it comes to medical care in the US
http://www.philly.com/philly/health/...exologist.html

I'm not calling on anyone to defend the mandatory part of this post, but y'all are free to try and find some convincing science...

Adding another fun link. http://blog.drbrownstein.com/flu-vac...ive-fake-news/
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#23 of 32 Old 05-02-2017, 09:10 PM
 
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The longer vaccine mandates such as NYU’s are in force, the more studies should be able to document the protective effects, Caplan said.
I thought studies and experiments were to learn something, not prove something.

So he has the outcome of this longterm study all planned out, and only needs the time to fill in the proper numbers and documentation and then publish the results that he has all ready decided will prove the protective effects of the flu shot?
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#24 of 32 Old 05-03-2017, 06:44 PM
 
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I thought studies and experiments were to learn something, not prove something.

So he has the outcome of this longterm study all planned out, and only needs the time to fill in the proper numbers and documentation and then publish the results that he has all ready decided will prove the protective effects of the flu shot?
A standard claim of the pro-vaccine is that vaccine critics are immune to evidence, so there is no need to do studies...

That would make an interesting thread, finding examples of pro people putting forward conclusions without evidence.
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#25 of 32 Old 05-04-2017, 06:36 AM
 
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A standard claim of the pro-vaccine is that vaccine critics are immune to evidence, so there is no need to do studies...

That would make an interesting thread, finding examples of pro people putting forward conclusions without evidence.
If that is true - then maybe they should ask themselves why.

I did not start out this distrustful of "evidence" - the hiding, misrepresenting, skewing and lying about results in studies have made me so. Frankly, I think it is either ignorant or foolish to place a lot of faith in evidence from studies.

Refraining from doing studies because I (and people like me) won't believe the studies is stupid. You do studies for those who will use the product, not those who don't.
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#26 of 32 Old 05-04-2017, 08:40 AM - Thread Starter
 
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From Australia, surprisingly: http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/vaccine-ex...30-1mb3gp.html

She's definitely pro-vax-compliance. But I agree with her here.]

Quote:
University of Sydney Associate Professor Julie Leask says the trend towards collective moral outrage about people who don't vaccinate their children risks making the problem worse.
Quote:
"Publicly adversarial debates are unlikely to convince [doubters] to vaccinate and may merely serve as catharsis for the converted," Professor Leask wrote.
Quote:
"I'm concerned this strategy merely punishes the children for the decisions of their parents," she said. "Do we really want to live in a society that condones stigmatising a certain group of children and their families because of the way they behave?"
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#27 of 32 Old 05-04-2017, 01:39 PM
 
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From Australia, surprisingly: http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/vaccine-ex...30-1mb3gp.html

She's definitely pro-vax-compliance. But I agree with her here.]
Shall we start a pool on how long it takes her to be attacked as "anti-vaccine?"
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#28 of 32 Old 05-04-2017, 01:40 PM
 
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A standard claim of the pro-vaccine is that vaccine critics are immune to evidence, so there is no need to do studies...

That would make an interesting thread, finding examples of pro people putting forward conclusions without evidence.
I'm going to start such a thread, unfortunately it will be very easy to find examples.
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#29 of 32 Old 05-05-2017, 10:39 AM
 
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That would make an interesting thread, finding examples of pro people putting forward conclusions without evidence.
Well if you need a visual you can watch the Vaxxed team (the videographers that is) and their encounter with Fiona whatshername outside of a theatre in Dublin. (You'd have to go to their FB page.)

To be fair there are a few gents in her group that eventually were capable of conversing in a normal tone of voice, even admitting that they are protesting without having seen the film.

Fiona and another woman OTOH, are just shrill. Fiona spits out questions rapidly - I'm not sure why since she doesn't give the Vaxxed crew time to respond. She lobs false accusation after false accusation and makes herself look quite ignorant. No evidence, no facts.

And there is only a tiny group of them. Maybe that's why Fiona is so loud? Anyways, those gents previously mentioned agreed to see the film and contact the Vaxxed crew with their opinion. (I think Fiona was across the street when they agreed to that.)
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#30 of 32 Old 05-05-2017, 11:25 AM
 
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Putting this here in for when the Times review gets put up by the pro-vaxxers on how anti-vaccine the film was or that the theatre wasn't full, blah, blah, blah.

So I watched another installment of the Dublin matinee showing. The Premiere is tonight. (that brings back memories! ) This installment is Polly and crew recording stories backstage whilst the film is playing in the theatre.

So I think Fiona had a journo from "The Times" with her when she came to protest the matinee. Polly said he could come in to watch the film if he was going to report the truth.

The journo left after 25 minutes into the film.

And that is journalism today.
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