Measles in Minnesota - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 88 Old 05-08-2017, 08:15 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Measles in Minnesota

We haven't discussed the measles outbreak in the Somali community in Minnesota. Corporate media's reaction is predictable--blame Wakefield, ebil anti-baksers, etc.

Most of the Muslim world is pretty vax compliant with some pretty coercive policies in the Gulf States. There are some exceptions.

It's probably doctors like this casting doubts on the vaccine schedule. I do a lot of work in the Somali community in my area, and I can assure you that none of them are reading Wakefield or the AoA blog. I think that there are deeper issues at play here. A number of refugees, in particular, already arrive not entirely trustful of medicine in this culture. They are then herded through multiple health appointments and vaccinated like pincushions, even if they've already been vaccinated in refugee camps and their records got lost. And because no one can seem to sell enough flu shots, there's now a requirement that refugees have annual flu shots in order to retain certain benefits. Then they get sick from their flu shots and pissed off about it.

My concern is that this recent outbreak, and all of the moral outrage and demonization coming with it, is going to fuel feelings of racism, xenophobia, and forced vax demands. A loss of trust in public health programs can be irreparable, but that's exactly what's going to result from this outbreak if things go down the way they did in California.

What are your thoughts?
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#2 of 88 Old 05-08-2017, 08:33 AM
 
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This Minnesota outbreak is NOT among Muslins from Gulf States.

Muslims are found in Africa, were most of those effected in this outbreak came from.

Africa is not considered "gulf" states.
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#3 of 88 Old 05-08-2017, 12:13 PM - Thread Starter
 
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From the preview of the latest post on the main forum page, (despite the block feature), I can see that I'm getting a little geography lesson. Rest assured, having clearly stated, "I do a lot of work in the Somali community," I know where Somalia is and am not discussing an outbreak among individuals of the Gulf States. Please keep this thread on the topic of measles in MN.
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#4 of 88 Old 05-08-2017, 12:27 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Turquesa View Post
From the preview of the latest post on the main forum page, (despite the block feature), I can see that I'm getting a little geography lesson. Rest assured, having clearly stated, "I do a lot of work in the Somali community," I know where Somalia is and am not discussing an outbreak among individuals of the Gulf States. Please keep this thread on the topic of measles in MN.
Full view might help you.

You should not have mentioned "Gulf States" in this because it's not about "Gulf States". Why do so?

Iranians are not Arabs, yet ignorant people often confus this. Misrepresentation leads to issues.

Somali is clearly not a "Gulf State". The outbreak is not among "Gulf State" former residents.

Facts do matter.

ETA-Muslims are found all over the globe, not all alike. Lumping is so wrong.
Adding links that are unrelated to the subject have little to no place in making facts clear and easy to read and understand.

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#5 of 88 Old 05-08-2017, 12:33 PM
 
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Wink

It's very difficult for readers to understand an OP when several subjects, unrelated are all mixed together.

Policies in one region vs a totally different outbreak and lumping people all together based on religion is incorrect.

Hard to stay on topic when several topics (subjects) are thrown together.


ETA-to be clear, @Turquesa you are not dealing with those involved with the current outbreak? You are not in Minnesota but working with the Woodburn/Portland OR community-correct?
Like Amish, just being from the same region/country/sect does not make one all the same. Again lumping is not beneficial so often.

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#6 of 88 Old 05-08-2017, 06:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Turquesa View Post
We haven't discussed the measles outbreak in the Somali community in Minnesota. Corporate media's reaction is predictable--blame Wakefield, ebil anti-baksers, etc.

Most of the Muslim world is pretty vax compliant with some pretty coercive policies in the Gulf States. There are some exceptions.

It's probably doctors like this casting doubts on the vaccine schedule. I do a lot of work in the Somali community in my area, and I can assure you that none of them are reading Wakefield or the AoA blog. I think that there are deeper issues at play here. A number of refugees, in particular, already arrive not entirely trustful of medicine in this culture. They are then herded through multiple health appointments and vaccinated like pincushions, even if they've already been vaccinated in refugee camps and their records got lost. And because no one can seem to sell enough flu shots, there's now a requirement that refugees have annual flu shots in order to retain certain benefits. Then they get sick from their flu shots and pissed off about it.

My concern is that this recent outbreak, and all of the moral outrage and demonization coming with it, is going to fuel feelings of racism, xenophobia, and forced vax demands. A loss of trust in public health programs can be irreparable, but that's exactly what's going to result from this outbreak if things go down the way they did in California.

What are your thoughts?
I've wondered, because for at least a year or two I've been seeing comments on articles about outbreaks blaming them on refugees or illegals or both. Not sure whether this is dirty grass-roots or calculated astro-turf.

I have also noticed that there is no discussion of whether the autism rate in the kids who didn't get the MMR is equal to the rate in the kids who did. That would be the best way to convince the families, just do a count and show them the numbers.
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#7 of 88 Old 05-08-2017, 10:20 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Refugees and immigrants are vaxxed up the wazoo. I don't have hard numbers on undocumented immigrants, the majority of whom are Mexican AFAIK, but I know anecdotally that the culture is quite vax-compliant.

Most people are vax-compliant until something happens to break their trust. For me, it was the suspiciously mushrooming vaccine schedule. For Mexicans, it was the Oaxaca debacle. I suspect that a new generation of Somalis is questioning the whole Thompson-Hooker affair.

What I despise is the message that this outbreak was caused by lily-white anti-baksers proselytizing to the Somalis about the evils of vaccines. It's a racist narrative that ends up portraying the Somalis as stupid and gullible.
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#8 of 88 Old 05-09-2017, 07:31 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Turquesa View Post
Refugees and immigrants are vaxxed up the wazoo.
What I despise is the message that this outbreak was caused by lily-white anti-baksers proselytizing the Somalis about the evils of vaccines. It's a racist narrative that ends up portraying the Somalis as stupid and gullible.
It does seem to be a racist narrative. As someone who once moved to the US not only did I have to provide my vaccination records (or be revaccinated), I had to undergo a TB test. I can only imagine what someone coming from a developing country must have to go through.
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#9 of 88 Old 05-09-2017, 08:21 AM - Thread Starter
 
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It does seem to be a racist narrative. As someone who once moved to the US not only did I have to provide my vaccination records (or be revaccinated), I had to undergo a TB test. I can only imagine what someone coming from a developing country must have to go through.
I do know that many refugees can be easily coerced, or at least manipulated, into signing questionable documents and doing things, (e.g. unnecessary re-vaccination and non-required vaccines like HPV), for the simple fear of being sent back to their dangerous homelands if they don't comply.

You already know what American parents go through: "Ah, shucks! Did we FORGET to mention that there are exemptions? How 'nice' that you researched that for yourself! We'll begrudgingly accept your paperwork..." How many refugees know about their actual rights? (How many of them get pissed off when they learn about them later, and end up losing trust in the System?)

This is why I highly doubt that the Somalis in this outbreak are first-generation refugees. Unfortunately, the xenophobes are latching on to this case to attack refugees. Again.

On another note, does anybody know how "hospitalized" is defined in the context of outbreaks? Does it refer only to serious, inpatient cases? Or does it involved every panicky parent running to the ER because they're unfamiliar with measles?
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#10 of 88 Old 05-09-2017, 09:03 AM
 
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Refugees and immigrants are vaxxed up the wazoo. I don't have hard numbers on undocumented immigrants, the majority of whom are Mexican AFAIK, but I know anecdotally that the culture is quite vax-compliant.

Most people are vax-compliant until something happens to break their trust. For me, it was the suspiciously mushrooming vaccine schedule. For Mexicans, it was the Oaxaca debacle. I suspect that a new generation of Somalis is questioning the whole Thompson-Hooker affair.

What I despise is the message that this outbreak was caused by lily-white anti-baksers proselytizing to the Somalis about the evils of vaccines. It's a racist narrative that ends up portraying the Somalis as stupid and gullible.
Mexicans now too in this thread? sorry that U.K. Link and now this is hard to understand the subject!

Where is the proof that "lily-white anti-baskets proselytizing to Somalis" caused this? Just wishful thinking? Links please?

IMO this type of narrative (speculation) does nothing but cause those who do not support vaccines to come across as kooks!
Fact and actual proof matter more and don't make one side look like nuts.
This is so not the way to inform others.


ETA-sounds just like this inflammatory logic! Who are these "groups"-those "working" with Somalis ? I hope not! I do wonder.

Pure scare!!!! "Mystery Groups"?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn...-bn/index.html

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#11 of 88 Old 05-09-2017, 09:32 AM
 
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Where is the proof that "lily-white anti-baskets proselytizing to Somalis" caused this? Just wishful thinking? Links please?

IMO this type of narrative (speculation) does nothing but cause those who do not support vaccines to come across as kooks!
Fact and actual proof matter more and don't make one side look like nuts.
This is so not the way to inform others.
https://www.wired.com/2017/05/anti-v...-came-measles/

"And they totally expected it. Over the last decade, anti-vaxxers have fortified this corner of Minneapolis into a bastion for pseudo-science. It all began with higher-than-normal rates of severe autism in the Somali community. And when state and university researchers failed to understand why the disorder hit so hard here, families went looking for answers elsewhere: friends, and the all-knowing internet. In came the anti-vax partisans, whose success with these frightened parents has turned the neighborhood into a beachhead for what should be a preventable disease."

The article did not say lily-white - but it is a reasonable assumption. I believe the deliberately unvaxxed group is highly caucasian.

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#12 of 88 Old 05-09-2017, 09:40 AM
 
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https://www.wired.com/2017/05/anti-v...-came-measles/

"And they totally expected it. Over the last decade, anti-vaxxers have fortified this corner of Minneapolis into a bastion for pseudo-science. It all began with higher-than-normal rates of severe autism in the Somali community. And when state and university researchers failed to understand why the disorder hit so hard here, families went looking for answers elsewhere: friends, and the all-knowing internet. In came the anti-vax partisans, whose success with these frightened parents has turned the neighborhood into a beachhead for what should be a preventable disease."

The article did not say lily-white - but it is a reasonable assumption. I believe the deliberately unvaxxed group is highly caucasian.
Because PRO vaccine Weired says so???? Now they are an unbiased source? Yea like CNN! Please!!!!!!!

Didn't know this forum was a bastion to promote mainstream thought! Good to know.

Unnamed groups-say it must be so!

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#13 of 88 Old 05-09-2017, 09:48 AM
 
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Because PRO vaccine Weired says so???? Now they are an unbiased source? Yea like CNN! Please!!!!!!!

Didn't know this forum was a bastion to promote mainstream thought! Good to know.

Unnamed groups-say it must be so!
You asked for a link. I provided. If you do not like the link, so be it. If I provided an "anti-vax" link, you might not like that either.

It is not a stretch to think that the tpb blame this outbreak on evil anti-vaxxers. Virtually all outbreaks are blamed on evil anit-vaxxers, even when it is likely false (pertussis, flu)

I am not sure what you are arguing, actually.
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My thoughts?

The rate of autism in the Somali community in Minnesota was/is very high. Parents wanted answers - did not get any, and yes, some of them blame vaccines. Why on earth not - especially if they have seen a reaction trigger ASD or if someone they trust has? I figure they decided they will take their chances with disease if it comes to town - it is a very small risk all non-vaxxers take.

They are parents and capable of deciding what risks they want their child to take.

If the government and other powers that be did a better job of:

a) listening to parents and taking their concerns seriously
b) actaullu figrued out what caused the rise in autism in various communities (and please do not say it is better diagnosis - most somali's with autism have severe autism, according to the link upthread, this would not have been missed in Somalia. it might not have been diagnosed - but it would not have been missed by the parents)

....then the rates of vaccination in this community likely would go up.
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#15 of 88 Old 05-09-2017, 10:00 AM
 
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You asked for a link. I provided. If you do not like the link, so be it. If I provided an "anti-vax" link, you might not like that either.

It is not a stretch to think that the tpb blame this outbreak on evil anti-vaxxers. Virtually all outbreaks are blamed on evil anit-vaxxers, even when it is likely false (pertussis, flu)

I am not sure what you are arguing, actually.
I wasn't arguing, I asked for proof. Proof is now arguing???

Made up "stuff" is not helpful.

The statement was made without any proof, it wasn't up to you to supply it since you didn't make it. The link you provided didn't address the "white" part but whatever.

Saying it, is like I said, making those who don't support vaccines look like kooks! Promoting it, again, more nutty!

Using mainstream sources here makes this really mainstream.
Starting to wonder who supports vaccines here, because talk seems to come from both sides of the mouth.

Associating as "working" with unnamed groups is quite alarming to hear.

To be clear, not all support this. More fuel for the mainstream fire-what a way to go!!

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#16 of 88 Old 05-09-2017, 10:42 AM
 
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CNN wrote about this outbreak as did many other places like the Washington Post, etc. It does appear Wakefield and other anti-vaccine activists played a role in this outbreak by spreading fear and misinformation about the MMR and vaccines causing autism.

Interestingly, as CNN points out,

Quote:
Three years later, a University of Minnesota research project investigated whether there was a higher prevalence of autism in Somali children who live in Minneapolis versus non-Somali children in Minneapolis. The project included data on children who were 7 to 9 years old in 2010.

The researchers found Somali and white children in Minneapolis to be equally likely to be identified with autism, and both groups were more likely to be identified with autism than non-Somali black and Hispanic children.
They also explain the role of Wakefield and anti-vaccine activists in the outbreak:

Quote:
"At that point, the anti-vaccine groups just really started targeting the community," she said.
Then, measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccination rates began to plummet.

At the same time, local anti-vaccination activists started to hold meetings in the community, he said.
"So, by about 2008, we started to see the vaccine rates drop as the word got through the Somali community that autism was linked to measles vaccination," he said. "In the years since then, Andrew Wakefield has actually been brought in several times to the Somali community here in Minnesota to actually give presentations supporting this information. ... His work has been retracted."
http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/08/health...-bn/index.html

Washington Post article (Wakefield is quoted in this one) https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...=.44e0308441ce

Quote:
MMR vaccination rates among U.S.-born children of Somali descent used to be higher than among other children in Minnesota. But the rates plummeted from 92 percent in 2004 to 42 percent in 2014, state health department data shows, well below the threshold of 92 to 94 percent needed to protect a community against measles.

Wakefield, a British activist who now lives in Texas, visited Minneapolis at least three times in 2010 and 2011 to meet privately with Somali parents of autistic children, according to local anti-vaccine activists.

As parents sought to learn more about the disorder, they came across websites of anti-
vaccine groups. And activists from those groups started showing up at community health meetings and distributing pamphlets, recalled Lynn Bahta, a longtime state health department nurse who has worked with Somali nurses to counter MMR vaccine resistance within the community.

At one 2011 gathering featuring Wakefield, Bahta recalled, an armed guard barred her, other public health officials and reporters from attending.

“The Somalis had decided themselves that they were particularly concerned,” Wakefield said last week. “I was responding to that.”

He maintained that he bears no fault for what is happening within the community. “I don’t feel responsible at all,” he said.

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#17 of 88 Old 05-09-2017, 10:49 AM
 
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Is one to assume these unnamed groups are people working with Somali's? These are the one postalizing, and they are white?

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#18 of 88 Old 05-09-2017, 11:07 AM
 
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I wasn't arguing, I asked for proof. Proof is now arguing???

Made up "stuff" is not helpful.

The statement was made without any proof, it wasn't up to you to supply it since you didn't make it. The link you provided didn't address the "white" part but whatever.

Saying it, is like I said, making those who don't support vaccines look like kooks! Promoting it, again, more nutty!

Using mainstream sources here makes this really mainstream.
Starting to wonder who supports vaccines here, because talk seems to come from both sides of the mouth.

Associating as "working" with unnamed groups is quite alarming to hear.

To be clear, not all support this. More fuel for the mainstream fire-what a way to go!!
Argue can mean heated exchange or it can mean to give reasons for ones point. I meant argue in the latter way.

To the best of my knowledge, the person you asked for proof from has you blocked. Ergo, she does not know to respond. I did. If you do not find it a helpful link, so be it. This is a public forum and anyone can respond.

In any event, I am going to move on. Namaste.

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#19 of 88 Old 05-09-2017, 11:14 AM
 
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My concern is that this recent outbreak, and all of the moral outrage and demonization coming with it, is going to fuel feelings of racism, xenophobia, and forced vax demands. A loss of trust in public health programs can be irreparable, but that's exactly what's going to result from this outbreak if things go down the way they did in California.

What are your thoughts?
Have you seen any articles on this - especially where refugees are saying they feel the brunt of racism/xenophoiba over this? Just curious.

I can't imagine what it like to feel or be judged less capable of making a decision for your children's health due to race.

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#20 of 88 Old 05-09-2017, 12:07 PM
 
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Argue can mean heated exchange or it can mean to give reasons for ones point. I meant argue in the latter way.

To the best of my knowledge, the person you asked for proof from has you blocked. Ergo, she does not know to respond. I did. If you do not find it a helpful link, so be it. This is a public forum and anyone can respond.

In any event, I am going to move on. Namaste.
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Others clearly can see when statements are made without proof and how it looks. I wasn't the one making this statement, argue all you want about it!

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#21 of 88 Old 05-09-2017, 12:16 PM
 
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For those who recall and those who don't, in the past statements made on here have floated off and been used against those non supportive of vaccines.

There is a reason so many view non supporters of vaccines as tinfoil wearing looks.

ETA-it's usually common sense that racially charged statements don't help causes

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#22 of 88 Old 05-09-2017, 12:23 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post
Have you seen any articles on this - especially where refuges are saying they feel the brunt of racism/xenophoiba over this? Just curious.

I can't imagine what it like to feel or be judged less capable of making a decision for your children's health due to race.
I haven't heard from the refugee community directly, but right-wing sites, including Breitbart, are blaming the outbreak on the U.S. accepting refugees. I'm about as thrilled to link to these sites as I am to link to Orac, but a quick ride on a search engine will pull it up.

When refugees arrive, they attend 2+ medical appointments at public health clinics for vaccines, blood tests, chest x-rays, etc. Unless these refugees "converted" to the "anti-vaccination movement" [sic] in some refugee camp that Wakefield visited, (??), chances are that they got all vaxxed up (very often re-vaxxed) when they arrived here and only later decided to question why their children were exhibiting symptoms of autism and whether it was worth getting the MMR vaccine. But for a lot of these people fighting for their very survival and determined to escape, the idea of questioning what the U.S. government tells them to do can be intimidating, if not downright terrifying. This is why even though I don't have raw data, I suspect that it's pretty rare for someone to challenge vaccination requirements or file an exemption.

Long story short: Refugees are all but certain to be vaccinated with at least on MMR dose.
News media, so far as I've seen, is referring to the Somali-American "community" but has been careful not to use the word "refugee." I haven't yet seen evidence that refugees are getting measles.

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#23 of 88 Old 05-09-2017, 01:12 PM
 
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Unless these refugees "converted" to the "anti-vaccination movement" [sic] in some refugee camp that Wakefield visited, (??),
The way the pre-vax zealots talk about Wakefield, one might wonder if he is omnipresent. As far as I know only God is omnipresent.
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#24 of 88 Old 05-11-2017, 07:48 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Here's the troubling double standard that I'm seeing.

Narrative 1 tells us that vaccine exemptions and VTD outbreaks occur among wealthy, selfish, privileged people.

When something happens to defy this stereotype, i.e. the Somalis start questioning vaccines, we get Narrative 2: Wealthy, selfish, privileged people duped and brainwashed a minority, as though the Somalis are too stupid to make their own decisions or think for themselves.

An example of this racism is in the Boston Herald's op-ed calling for the hanging, lynching even, of vaccine critics.
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#25 of 88 Old 05-11-2017, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Turquesa View Post
Here's the troubling double standard that I'm seeing.

Narrative 1 tells us that vaccine exemptions and VTD outbreaks occur among wealthy, selfish, privileged people.

When something happens to defy this stereotype, i.e. the Somalis start questioning vaccines, we get Narrative 2: Wealthy, selfish, privileged people duped and brainwashed a minority, as though the Somalis are too stupid to make their own decisions or think for themselves.

An example of this racism is in the Boston Herald's op-ed calling for the hanging, lynching even, of vaccine critics.
No violence suggested against the dumb *sses that decided to remove the ability to get a single measles vaccine either, hau?

Don't touch the Thompson story, just keep regurgitating Wakefield.

Keep talking con men, you are digging yourselves a very big hole.

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#26 of 88 Old 05-11-2017, 01:02 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Turquesa View Post
Here's the troubling double standard that I'm seeing.

Narrative 1 tells us that vaccine exemptions and VTD outbreaks occur among wealthy, selfish, privileged people.

When something happens to defy this stereotype, i.e. the Somalis start questioning vaccines, we get Narrative 2: Wealthy, selfish, privileged people duped and brainwashed a minority, as though the Somalis are too stupid to make their own decisions or think for themselves.

An example of this racism is in the Boston Herald's op-ed calling for the hanging, lynching even, of vaccine critics.
Any narrative will do as long as it makes vaccine critics look bad. And it works fairly well because most people have only a superficial understanding of the issues and can't spot that they are being gamed.
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#27 of 88 Old 05-11-2017, 01:27 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Turquesa View Post
Here's the troubling double standard that I'm seeing.

Narrative 1 tells us that vaccine exemptions and VTD outbreaks occur among wealthy, selfish, privileged people.

When something happens to defy this stereotype, i.e. the Somalis start questioning vaccines, we get Narrative 2: Wealthy, selfish, privileged people duped and brainwashed a minority, as though the Somalis are too stupid to make their own decisions or think for themselves.

An example of this racism is in the Boston Herald's op-ed calling for the hanging, lynching even, of vaccine critics.
Have you read through the comments on the BH? Quite pro-choice on the matter. There is one pro vax poster (DR's male counterpart?) that responds to all comments; many people will be familiar with him if you read comments on most vaccination articles in the media. But I haven't seen the usual suspects that are normally all over these type of opinion pieces. Is it wishful thinking that even they found the hanging/lynching a bit much?

From what I've read but not confirmed, the author was Rachelle Cohen who as editor had to apologize over a racist cartoon.
Quote:
Rachelle Cohen, editor of the Herald’s editorial pages, finally broke her silence on the cartoon the newspaper ran two weeks ago that many, including Governor Deval Patrick, deemed racist. Writing Wednesday in the Herald, Cohen said publishing the cartoon was “the dumbest thing I’ve ever done.” In case you missed it, the cartoon by the Herald’s Jerry Holbert showed President Obama brushing his teeth as a strange man sitting in a bathtub behind him asks if the president has “tried the new watermelon flavored toothpaste.”
https://www.bostonglobe.com/lifestyl...tvN/story.html
So the BH has gone from racism to racism combined with threats of violence. And they are still in business why?

At the bottom of this link-
http://www.jeffereyjaxen.com/blog/bo...nizing-parents

-there is a video of Somali parents at a type of town hall with Mark Blaxill and others. A few pediatricians showed up, commented on how vaccines saves lives and don't cause autism but left before they could answer questions that the Somali parents had for them.
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#28 of 88 Old 05-11-2017, 02:04 PM
 
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And now WaPo adds classism to the mix.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...=.c5cbdaa3a394

Quote:
Parents in affluent communities enjoy a privileged status under the law that manifests most clearly — and most dangerously — when they refuse to have their children vaccinated. These parents are vaccination “free-riders” who are not held legally accountable for putting their own children — as well as other people’s children — at risk of potentially fatal childhood diseases.
Oh and not vaccinating your child is akin to taking cocaine during pregnancy.

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#29 of 88 Old 05-11-2017, 04:57 PM
 
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And then vaccine enthusiasts WONDER why vaccine critics have doubts about the vaccine program.

the vaccine program is the victim, not the people who are injured by vaccines! (Gotta bunch of bridges for sale, by the way)
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#30 of 88 Old 05-13-2017, 09:03 PM - Thread Starter
 
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This article has a really interesting take on the issue. http://sarahdillingham.com/blog/meas...-real-problems

Quote:
However the hospitalization rate among this handful of patients is high, fluctuating between 25-33%. The CDC estimates that during the modern pre-vaccine era, the hospitalization rate of measles patients was around 1-2%, with 85% of cases being so mild as to go unreported.
I do keep wondering what's going on with this. Are the higher hospitalization rates occurring because measles is more dangerous in the 21st century? Or are parents who've been told that measles is dangerous simply panicking and checking their kids into the ER?

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