so I made a list...hypocricy - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 36 Old 06-13-2017, 11:35 AM - Thread Starter
 
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so I made a list...hypocricy

I thought I would make my own list of pro-vax hypocricy, seeing as there is a non-vax one circulating : This is clearly an "in general" list and does not apply to all pro-vaxxers.


1. " We want everyone to be vaccinated that medically can be because we care about the health of all children" …sure, and that is why you advocate for doctors kicking unvaxxed children out of medical practices.

2. Non-vaxxers are selfish for not vaccinating…because it could harm our children. This is part of the reason for pro-vaxxers seeking doctors office that exclude the non-vaxxed, even when their child is perfectly healthy. I don’t want to vaccinate to protect my children; you want me to vaccinate to protect your children. Everyone wants to protect their children first.

3. Vaccines make no money whatsoever - but alternative money rakes it in! (even though most common VADS require no alt meds at all). Snort

4. correlation is not causation - in everything but disease reduction Now, I personally think the saying is trite and overly simplistic, but if you are going to make simplistic statements, at least be even in your application.

5. VAERS is useless - except it was designed by pro-vaxxers and most reports are made by doctors.

6. acute diseases are horrible but chronic diseases are good. Some are just brain differences.

7. Non-vaxxed children are a huge threat to society and unsafe to be around (unless, of course, they are unvaxxed for medical reason, or are homeless…those kids never get diseases and are all fine)

8. Non vaxxed children without Hep B are more likely to give a person hep b in a school setting than people with hep. b.

9. We acknowledge that vaccine reactions can happen…but they did not happen to you.

10. I am a conspiracy theorist for distrusting what the CDC says, but it is fine to distrust what the courts say.

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#2 of 36 Old 06-13-2017, 12:57 PM
 
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1. (Similar to #3 in Kathymuggle's list). Anyone who points out conflicts of interests with vaccine manufacturers is a whack-o conspiracy theorist nutjob. But it's OK to spew out the false-analogy COI about Mercola selling supplements.

2. Anti-vaxxers are a fear-mongering bunch of irrational worry warts about vaccine safety, [/URL]but we're happy to "scare the crap out of them" about vaccine-targeted diseases. Because fear-mongering is OK so long as we're the ones doing it.

3. We won't listen to anybody who spews out anti-science garbage. Unless they're from our side.

Then we'll give our patron saint, Paul Offit, a free pass for his evidence-free assertion that aluminum is necessary for health fetal development. The Australian Medical Association president is also off the hook for his bogus, anti-science claim that delayed cord clamping HARMS babies.


4. Big Pharma is evil and wicked and vile and corrupt.

Unless it's manufacturing vaccines. Vaccines are majikul speshul joose.

I'm sure I have more up my sleeve, but must move on with my day.

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#3 of 36 Old 06-13-2017, 02:15 PM
 
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I'll add:

-Any actress/actor that promotes vaccines is clever and people should listen to them but any actress that questions the program is a bimbo/tart who doesn't get to have an opinion even as it relates to their own child.

See what I did there in the bold? There are male actors who have spoken out against vaccines, or at least said their child had been affected by them, and they didn't get the abuse females seem to receive.
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#4 of 36 Old 06-13-2017, 05:23 PM
 
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I'm pro-vaccine because I reeeeaalllly care a whole LOT about children and #putchildren1st . I just want to make sure that some of them don't get access to education and health care, that's all.

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#5 of 36 Old 06-16-2017, 06:05 PM
 
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Here's one a see a fairly often: "I use to be a crunchy-granola anti-vaxxer. Then I heard the gospel of compliance and saw the pro-vaccine Light and got my five-year-old all caught up for Kindergarten. I expect YOU to vaccinate on schedule, though."

“It is simply no longer possible to believe much of the clinical research that is published, or to rely on the judgment of trusted physicians or authoritative medical guidelines.” - Marcia Angell, M.D., former NEJM Editor
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#6 of 36 Old 06-16-2017, 06:13 PM
 
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Here's one a see a fairly often: "I use to be a crunchy-granola anti-vaxxer. Then I heard the gospel of compliance and saw the pro-vaccine Light and got my five-year-old all caught up for Kindergarten. I expect YOU to vaccinate on schedule, though."
Translation: I wouldn't want you to be stupid the way I was stupid.

However, would you take advice from someone who was confessing that they "used" to be stupid?
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#7 of 36 Old 06-16-2017, 08:11 PM
 
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This is way out there, but I have admired Paglia for a long time for her ability to cut through mountains of nonsense in a few words. Doesn't this hit the spot?
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But today's liberalism has become grotesquely mechanistic and authoritarian: It's all about reducing individuals to a group identity, defining that group in permanent victim terms, and denying others their democratic right to challenge that group and its ideology. Political correctness represents the fossilized institutionalization of once-vital revolutionary ideas, which have become mere rote formulas. It is repressively Stalinist, dependent on a labyrinthine, parasitic bureaucracy to enforce its empty dictates.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/camill...rticle/2008464

Remember all the stuff about protections only applying to groups who didn't choose their status? Ya gotta be a victim.
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#8 of 36 Old 06-20-2017, 08:03 AM - Thread Starter
 
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bumpity - bump - bump

We had a nice discussion on non vax and hypocrisy...I would be interested in hearing from pro-vaxxers on whether they think anything on this list may have some truth to it.
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#9 of 36 Old 06-20-2017, 11:40 AM
 
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An attorney testifying against a coercive vaccination bill points out two cases of hypocrisy from none other than the medical community.
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#10 of 36 Old 06-20-2017, 01:11 PM
 
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MY CHILD GOT EXPOSED TO MEASLES IN A CLINIC WAITING ROOM!!!! I'M GOING TO BROADCAST MY HISTRIONIC MORAL OUTRAGE IN A VIRAL SOCIAL MEDIA POST SO THAT EVERYBODY KNOWS ALL ABOUT THESE EVIL, VILE ANTI-VA . . .

Wait. What's that you say? The measles case was in a vaccinated adult? Oh. Whoops. My bad. Don't worry. I'll just quietly retreat into a corner and not issue any correction or apology. No need for moral outrage anymore.

Actually, the inconsistent application of moral outrage is arguably the most glaring and frequent hypocrisies that I see among those pushing for vaccine compliance. By way or reminder, we discussed this recently.
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#11 of 36 Old 06-20-2017, 06:23 PM
 
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One of my favorite pro-vaccine hypocrisies is to claim that the authorities are FORCED to hide information because vaccine critics will misuse it.

Forbes wrote an article about the whistleblower lawsuit against Merck for faking the efficacy of the mumps portion of the MMR, basically saying that the main problem with the lawsuit was not that Merck lied and cheated the government. The problem was that vaccine critics were using the lawsuit to undermine the vaccine program.
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#12 of 36 Old 06-21-2017, 08:36 AM
 
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One of my favorite pro-vaccine hypocrisies is to claim that the authorities are FORCED to hide information because vaccine critics will misuse it.

Forbes wrote an article about the whistleblower lawsuit against Merck for faking the efficacy of the mumps portion of the MMR, basically saying that the main problem with the lawsuit was not that Merck lied and cheated the government. The problem was that vaccine critics were using the lawsuit to undermine the vaccine program.
Along those lines, it's okey dokey to lie when you feel it's right to:

Quote:
"You can never really say 'MMR doesn’t cause autism,' but frankly when you get in front of the media, you better get used to saying it. Because otherwise people hear a door being left open, when a door shouldn't be left open."

- Paul Offit, vaccine developer
Quote:
"You can't prove that Coca-Cola doesn't cause autism, either... You're in a debate [chuckle] and, you know, you gotta fight unfair."

- Arthur Caplan, bioethicist
http://www.ageofautism.com/2017/05/y...aul-offit.html
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#13 of 36 Old 06-21-2017, 09:03 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Wanting school based vaccine mandates on one hand while claiming to support informed consent on the other hand is hypocritical.

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#14 of 36 Old 06-21-2017, 10:38 AM
 
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Wanting school based vaccine mandates on one hand while claiming to support informed consent on the other hand is hypocritical.
We may find that the concept of informed consent gets increasingly dismissed and minimalized. This blogger argues that an emphasis on informed consent may create (gasp!) "vaccine hesitancy." https://karenvaxblog.wordpress.com/t...ormed-consent/

Why, oh why, can't we go back to the days when our grandmothers obeyed the doctor?

Unless it was my grandmother, God rest her soul, who routinely reminded doctors who was Boss. Fortunately, I don't believe that quality is hereditary.
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#15 of 36 Old 06-21-2017, 06:55 PM
 
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We may find that the concept of informed consent gets increasingly dismissed and minimalized. This blogger argues that an emphasis on informed consent may create (gasp!) "vaccine hesitancy." https://karenvaxblog.wordpress.com/t...ormed-consent/

Why, oh why, can't we go back to the days when our grandmothers obeyed the doctor?

Unless it was my grandmother, God rest her soul, who routinely reminded doctors who was Boss. Fortunately, I don't believe that quality is hereditary.
There is a lot of fun stuff in that article. And some of it fits the hypocrisy thing really well.

Let's start with this:
Quote:
most of the responsibility belongs to the charlatans and the grifters in the anti-vaccine community.
Doesn't that sound like a conspiracy theory?

Quote:
Anti-vaccine charlatans wedge themselves into that tiny sliver of space that exists between informing yourself and getting information from your doctor. They convince parents that doctors are untrustworthy, bought, uninformed, and all manner of negative adjectives. Once parents are convinced, empowerment becomes a struggle between parent and doctor.
More conspiracy theory stuff.

Fascinating!
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#16 of 36 Old 06-22-2017, 09:08 AM
 
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Telling parents to vaccinate exactly on schedule but when it comes to their own children they get to pick and choose.

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I’ll tell you an industry-kept secret which is that a lot of doctors in America are choosing not to vaccinate their children on the current CDC schedule. Almost every doctor I’ve interviewed has chosen an alternative schedule for their children that is based on better health and better science. It’s a really well-kept secret that the people working at the CDC are also alternating the vaccine schedule for their own children.
https://vaccinesbytheoutliers.wordpr...cine-schedule/
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#17 of 36 Old 06-22-2017, 06:14 PM
 
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We may find that the concept of informed consent gets increasingly dismissed and minimalized. This blogger argues that an emphasis on informed consent may create (gasp!) "vaccine hesitancy." https://karenvaxblog.wordpress.com/t...ormed-consent/

Why, oh why, can't we go back to the days when our grandmothers obeyed the doctor?

Unless it was my grandmother, God rest her soul, who routinely reminded doctors who was Boss. Fortunately, I don't believe that quality is hereditary.
The other thing I found really striking is the total non-acknowledgement of possible vaccine injury as a reason that people question vaccines. Isn't that a bit weird? I mean here are thousands of vaccine injury reports online, all those signatures on the Vaxxed bus, some of us even know people in real life with vaccine injuries (who then either stopped vaxing or became very cautious) and here is an article talking about the problem of vaccine doubts...and there is absolutely no mention of all those stories of vaccine injury. I guess they are hidden under the words "anti-vaccine" and "charlatans" and "grifters."

Could the medical people be the real problem, but not the way Karen thinks? You know, the desperate mother who calls the medical office after her baby has been screaming for hours and is told "that is normal" and starts doubting that the doctor and staff really care about the well-being of her kid. Nah, that sort of thing wouldn't make a "good" parent have doubts, not unless the evil anti-vaxers had undermined her faith.

I suddenly flashed on La Leche League. When I was a new mother, back in 1967, I subscribed to their newsletter and it was full of stories of women who struggled for years trying to breastfeed and finally figured it out. What it usually involved started with avoiding doctor's advice on how to feed a baby. Continued with a decision to have the baby at home so the hospital couldn't interfere with bonding and establishing a breastfeeding relationship.

Wasn't it the evil breastfeeding fanatics who undermined the authority of doctors, or was it doctors who undermined their own authority by handing out useless advice on the topic?

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#18 of 36 Old 06-24-2017, 12:58 PM
 
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If you follow an elected official for 45 seconds because he won't do his job and answer questions from the electorate, that's called "stalking" and "harassment."

If you follow and stalk the VaXxed bus non-stop for weeks at a time, you're a hero who deserves donations.

“It is simply no longer possible to believe much of the clinical research that is published, or to rely on the judgment of trusted physicians or authoritative medical guidelines.” - Marcia Angell, M.D., former NEJM Editor
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#19 of 36 Old 06-24-2017, 01:16 PM
 
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If you follow an elected official for 45 seconds because he won't do his job and answer questions from the electorate, that's called "stalking" and "harassment."

If you follow and stalk the VaXxed bus non-stop for weeks at a time, you're a hero who deserves donations.
I wonder how many donations he is actually getting? $7,140. Not bad. Won't pay for a bus.
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#20 of 36 Old 07-24-2017, 11:03 PM
 
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Stop being such a conspiracy theorist! The FDA and CDC are trustworthy government agencies staffed with scientific experts who care about children and only approve rigorously tested, evidence-based pharmaceutical products and release only evidence-based recommendations, respectively.

Unless they don't approve a particular vaccine, of course. Then they're clearly just anti-science nutjobs who don't know what they're talking about and take orders from those ebil anti-baksers.

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#21 of 36 Old 07-25-2017, 08:06 PM
 
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Stop being such a conspiracy theorist! The FDA and CDC are trustworthy government agencies staffed with scientific experts who care about children and only approve rigorously tested, evidence-based pharmaceutical products and release only evidence-based recommendations, respectively.

Unless they don't approve a particular vaccine, of course. Then they're clearly just anti-science nutjobs who don't know what they're talking about and take orders from those ebil anti-baksers.
My memory is that the Lyme vaccine didn't have liability protection and as soon as the lawsuits began to get hot the vaccine was pulled. Were the people suing anti-vaxers or just unhappy vaccine users? Hard to sue if you don't get the vaccine, right?

Quote:
The ACIP also noted limitations of the LYMErix vaccine [8]. These included the fact that vaccine efficacy was noted to be only ∼80% against definite disease outcome; that 3 doses were required over a 12-month period, effectively meaning that individuals could not be fully protected in the first year of vaccination; that no safety or efficacy data were available for persons <15 years of age, who were among those at highest risk for infection; and that the vaccine was only effective against the North American strain of Borellia and hence was unlikely to be protective against Lyme disease acquired in other regions of the world. Other concerns included the unknown but possible need for booster doses and continued advocacy for reducing tick exposure by personal protective measures, rather than by relying on vaccine alone.
https://academic.oup.com/cid/article...t-Happened-and

Interesting article. The author does try to blame the evil anti-vaxers, but there were obviously a lot of different problems around the vaccine.

My own take: there are enough people who distrust the medical establishment about anything and everything that all you need are some good rumors and people will stop using a product. In those days the media compliance when it came to covering up and denying problems wasn't as good as it is today, either.
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#22 of 36 Old 07-27-2017, 05:48 PM
 
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We pro-vaxxers demand rigorous, indisputable FACTS and EVIDENCE before we form our beliefs!!!

Unless, of course, it's a trumped-up, evidence-free, hearsay-based charge from an Australian politician who's already in hot water.

We take that king of thing at face value.
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#23 of 36 Old 07-27-2017, 06:07 PM
 
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We pro-vaxxers demand rigorous, indisputable FACTS and EVIDENCE before we form our beliefs!!!

Unless, of course, it's a trumped-up, evidence-free, hearsay-based charge from an Australian politician who's already in hot water.

We take that king of thing at face value.
Well yeah. rumors are good if they undermine the vaccine critics. Facts be damned.
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#24 of 36 Old 09-18-2017, 08:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Turquesa View Post
Here's one a see a fairly often: "I use to be a crunchy-granola anti-vaxxer. Then I heard the gospel of compliance and saw the pro-vaccine Light and got my five-year-old all caught up for Kindergarten. I expect YOU to vaccinate on schedule, though."
There are way too many of those crunchy moms. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/he...-a7950281.html

Quote:
The creeping return of deadly diseases like measles should be blamed on “Whole Foods mums” who refuse to vaccinate their children, a global health chief has said.
Parents in developed countries are shunning the life-saving injections by “trying to be organic”, amid a barrage of anti-vaccine conspiracy theories led by American celebrities, said Seth Berkley, the head of international vaccine alliance Gavi.
GAVI looks to me like a system for extracting millions from advanced countries, paying it to pharmaceutical companies for vaccines, which are then shoved into poor countries with contracts that commit them to paying for the vaccines in the future.
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#25 of 36 Old 09-19-2017, 07:38 PM
 
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May I just say that I hate Whole Foods???
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#26 of 36 Old 09-19-2017, 08:02 PM
 
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May I just say that I hate Whole Foods???
It was a good option back when I lived in Chicago. I left in 2002, so that is getting back there. Nowadays I shop at a co-op and also get a lot of high quality farm-fresh food from an organization called Farmers to You. They serve Boston and part of Vermont.
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#27 of 36 Old 09-27-2017, 05:21 PM
 
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This one is classic and horrible. https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/09/2...m.facebook.com

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I’m pregnant with my first child, and concern for my unborn baby has prompted me to ask my friends if their children are vaccinated. One close friend, Y, has two young (vaccinated) children, and lives near another friend, X. Both Y and I have suspected for some time that X chose not to vaccinate her child, and we have been trying to work up the courage to ask her. With the new pregnancy as an excuse, the task fell to me.
It turns out that X has indeed chosen not to vaccinate. When telling me this, she also asked me to keep her answer private. While her choice is not one I would make, I am perhaps even more upset by her request that I conceal the information.
The natural result of this sort of game playing:

People who don't vaccinate will either lie about their status to everyone...or else they will cluster together and hang out with other people who don't vaccinate. What could be possibly be more dangerous...
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#28 of 36 Old 09-28-2017, 08:21 AM
 
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This one is classic and horrible. https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/09/2...m.facebook.com
It sounded like an advertorial. And that's funny because the column is called The Ethicist.

But let's play along...


Quote:
One close friend, Y, has two young (vaccinated) children, and lives near another friend, X. Both Y and I have suspected for some time that X chose not to vaccinate her child, and we have been trying to work up the courage to ask her. With the new pregnancy as an excuse, the task fell to me.
Wait... Y has two children who play with X's children but Y wasn't concerned enough to ask about vaccination status all those years and waited for this woman to get pregnant so she could be the one to ask? I'm thinking it wasn't much of an issue for Y.


Quote:
My frustration is compounded by the fact that X’s child attends a public school and as far as I know has no valid grounds (for instance, an immuno-compromised child) for exemption.
This woman doesn't have a child in her arms let alone school but she's frustrated that because she can't think of any grounds for her "friend" to have exemptions, they clearly can't exist. Is this woman frustrated by all the other school childrens' (or other adults in the school) vaccination/exemption status she doesn't know either?

And what made these two busybodies suspect their friend chose not to vaccinate when that friend is trying to be so secretive about her childrens' unvaccinated status?

Was it because the friends unvaccinated children were so much healthier?
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#29 of 36 Old 09-28-2017, 11:02 AM
 
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Signed in after a long hiatus and so nice to see the same familiar names, loving this thread breaking up the monotony of work
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#30 of 36 Old 09-28-2017, 01:53 PM
 
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This one is classic and horrible. https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/09/2...m.facebook.com



The natural result of this sort of game playing:

People who don't vaccinate will either lie about their status to everyone...or else they will cluster together and hang out with other people who don't vaccinate. What could be possibly be more dangerous...
Can I spread the word about an unvaccinated child?

Good question. Can I spread the word about an HIV+ one?
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