Hepatitis B jab to be added to immunisations of babies born in UK - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 48 Old 07-10-2017, 12:24 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Hepatitis B jab to be added to immunisations of babies born in UK

https://www.theguardian.com/society/...ies-born-in-uk

Previously, the vaccine was only recommended to babies who were at risk, but will now be recommended and offered to *all* babies in the UK at 8,12, and 16 weeks starting August 1st.



Interesting development and turn around.
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#2 of 48 Old 07-10-2017, 02:40 PM
 
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That's too bad.

I have trouble with mass vaccination to prevent rare diseases that have known risk factors, when not all children are at equal risk.
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#3 of 48 Old 07-10-2017, 03:48 PM
 
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Why, is the UK envious of the US's infant mortality rate?
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Originally Posted by samaxtics View Post
Why, is the UK envious of the US's infant mortality rate?


Is it? I didn't see any reference to anyone's mortality rates in the article.


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#5 of 48 Old 07-10-2017, 06:56 PM
 
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They are already giving a birth dose to babies at risk. And I'm sure those babies also get follow-up doses.

But this is a "six-in-one" vaccine which is going to be given starting at 2 months, so it won't do a thing for a baby who is at risk but misses the birth dose and other treatments.

My guess is that they just want to start using a bigger combo vaccine.

Does everyone trust the "low" reaction rate?
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#6 of 48 Old 07-11-2017, 10:47 AM
 
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Originally Posted by katelove View Post
Is it?

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I don't know. That's why I asked.
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#7 of 48 Old 07-11-2017, 03:32 PM
 
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From The Daily Mail.....

Quote:
ALL newborns will be given a hepatitis B jab after health watchdog says 96% of cases are among immigrants


Babies born from August 1 will receive doses of 'Hexa' jab at 4, 8 and 16 weeks
Comes after health watchdog warns immigration in UK is causing hepatitis spike
Historically blood-borne virus in UK has been low but now cases are on the rise
Looks like they got the age of administration wrong, I checked with an NHS website.

So, they are giving this vaccine to native British babies even though they are at very low risk of the disease.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/ar...tis-B-jab.html

Good luck with that.

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#8 of 48 Old 07-11-2017, 05:07 PM
 
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Why is it that only medical types can get away with xenophobic laws and protocols?

Anyone else would be charged with hate speech, but hcp's are free to insult all racial types and foreigners.
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#9 of 48 Old 07-11-2017, 05:53 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by applejuice View Post
Why is it that only medical types can get away with xenophobic laws and protocols?

Anyone else would be charged with hate speech, but hcp's are free to insult all racial types and foreigners.
Only in some contexts I think.
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#10 of 48 Old 07-11-2017, 07:58 PM
 
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Originally Posted by applejuice View Post
Why is it that only medical types can get away with xenophobic laws and protocols?

Anyone else would be charged with hate speech, but hcp's are free to insult all racial types and foreigners.

I think this could be looked at two ways:

1. In a move straight out of the politically correct binder, they refuse to say that most hep b cases come from immigrants, thus everyone has to be vaccinated. Everyone has to be vaccinated so they do not "look" prejudice.

2. Scary foreigners with scary diseases and they are going to give them to us!!! (aka xenophobia)
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#11 of 48 Old 07-11-2017, 08:19 PM
 
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Kathy, I was about to say something similar, i.e. that they don't want to be seen to be racial profiling. Therefore everyone gets it, even if most don't need it.
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#12 of 48 Old 07-13-2017, 02:20 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samaxtics View Post
Why, is the UK envious of the US's infant mortality rate?
What makes you think that? Correlation? What do you think about the correlation that the UK has lower infant mortality rates than the US and significantly lower breastfeeding rates as well? .5 percent (1 in 200) in the UK are still breastfeeding at 1 vs roughly 25% in the US? The UK has both some of the lowest infant mortality rates and lowest breastfeeding rates in the world. Should we conclude that formula is better than breastmilk? Or concede the point that infant mortality rate statistics are complex and that correlation does not equal causation?

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#13 of 48 Old 07-14-2017, 03:01 PM
 
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What makes you think that? Correlation?
Of course. It's not like they are going to do a study now, is it?

And hey, correlation is what the smallpox/polio vaccine defenders use. What's good for the goose...
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Such a coincidence! Just as a more convenient and affordable multivalent vaccine is made available, our babies are all in mortal danger of Hep B! Science is odd that way, no?

Oh, and it's a good thing, given the huge public clamor for the vaccine! I'm sure that they'll all line up for miles in desperation just like they did with the polio vaccine.

On that note, am I the only one getting that funny feeling that childhood chicken pox in Britain is about to become really "deadly?"

This is too much sarcasm for a Sunday morning. I need to go for a walk today, clear my head.

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#15 of 48 Old 07-16-2017, 07:46 AM
 
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Or concede the point that infant mortality rate statistics are complex and that correlation does not equal causation?
You know what? I agree with you. Infant mortality stats can be complex, especially when we are talking small differences and it is unlikely infant hep. b rates has much effect on population level infant mortality in the UK or USA. That being said, population level infant mortality statistics have nothing to do with whether an indivudal infant needs a hep. b vaccine. I cannot for the life of me fathom risk giving an infant a hep b shot if they come from a low risk population and the mother tested negative to hep b in pregnancy.
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#16 of 48 Old 07-16-2017, 08:33 AM
 
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Such a coincidence! Just as a more convenient and affordable multivalent vaccine is made available, our babies are all in mortal danger of Hep B! Science is odd that way, no?

Oh, and it's a good thing, given the huge public clamor for the vaccine! I'm sure that they'll all line up for miles in desperation just like they did with the polio vaccine.

On that note, am I the only one getting that funny feeling that childhood chicken pox in Britain is about to become really "deadly?"

This is too much sarcasm for a Sunday morning. I need to go for a walk today, clear my head.
The main thing that makes it "affordable" is that one of the people on the committee also does lots of work for the manufacturer.

And yes, I'm sure that chickenpox will move soon from normal childhood illness to deadly dangerous childhood illness in the UK.
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#17 of 48 Old 07-16-2017, 08:36 AM
 
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You know what? I agree with you. Infant mortality stats can be complex, especially when we are talking small differences and it is unlikely infant hep. b rates has much effect on population level infant mortality in the UK or USA. That being said, population level infant mortality statistics have nothing to do with whether an indivdual infant needs a hep. b vaccine. I cannot for the life of me fathom risk giving an infant a hep b shot if they come from a low risk population and the mother tested negative to hep b in pregnancy.
Anyway, the actual question being raised is whether the 6-in-1 shot will increase infant mortality in the UK, especially if they also institute a universal birth dose of Hep B.

Given that the US has miserable stats, we aren't in a good position to boast about the wonders achieved by our vigorous vaccine schedule. Even if there are several ways to explain away those stats...
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#18 of 48 Old 07-16-2017, 09:02 AM
 
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Anyway, the actual question being raised is whether the 6-in-1 shot will increase infant mortality in the UK, especially if they also institute a universal birth dose of Hep B.

.
Probably not.

Did the infant mortality rate in the USA increase the moment the hep b was added?

Let's say (total speculation) the hep b shot at birth is responsible for killing 1/100 000 babies. This simply isn't enough on a population level to impact infant mortality rates.

That isn't to say that I think universal infant hep bis a good idea. I don't. On an individual level, there is no reason to take a 1/100 000 risk if you are in a safe demographic and received routine prenatal care including a hep b test.
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#19 of 48 Old 07-16-2017, 06:31 PM
 
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Probably not.

Did the infant mortality rate in the USA increase the moment the hep b was added?

Let's say (total speculation) the hep b shot at birth is responsible for killing 1/100 000 babies. This simply isn't enough on a population level to impact infant mortality rates.

That isn't to say that I think universal infant hep bis a good idea. I don't. On an individual level, there is no reason to take a 1/100 000 risk if you are in a safe demographic and received routine prenatal care including a hep b test.
Yeah. The same thing plays out in the other direction. Most of the childhood illnesses don't cause problems on a large enough scale to move the dial. Which is why all the claims about huge savings from vaccines never seem to show up as actual reductions in healthcare costs. Was there an actual drop in hospitalizations following the arrival of the rotavirus vaccine? We'll never know because the proper analysis was never done.

What we do know is that states with high vaccination rates have lousy outcomes in the US, which just proves that poverty trumps vaccinations every time.
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#20 of 48 Old 07-16-2017, 06:57 PM
 
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Quote:
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Yeah. The same thing plays out in the other direction. Most of the childhood illnesses don't cause problems on a large enough scale to move the dial. Which is why all the claims about huge savings from vaccines never seem to show up as actual reductions in healthcare costs. Was there an actual drop in hospitalizations following the arrival of the rotavirus vaccine? We'll never know because the proper analysis was never done.

What we do know is that states with high vaccination rates have lousy outcomes in the US, which just proves that poverty trumps vaccinations every time.
Completely agree.
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#21 of 48 Old 07-17-2017, 08:25 PM
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I was wondering what the difference in the amt. of aluminum adjuvant the infants would receive using the hexa vaccine.

Links to the vaccines were all taken from this site with the exception of Infanrix Hexa.

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/vaccina...checklist.aspx

This is what the site says regarding Hep B :
Quote:
People at risk of hepatitis B – and who should therefore consider vaccination – are:

people who inject drugs or have a partner who injects drugs
people who change their sexual partners frequently
men who have sex with men
babies born to infected mothers
close family and sexual partners of someone with hepatitis B
anyone who receives regular blood transfusions or blood products
people with any form of liver disease
people with chronic kidney disease
people travelling to high-risk countries
male and female sex workers
people who work somewhere that places them at risk of contact with blood or body fluids, such as nurses, prison staff, doctors, dentists and laboratory staff
prisoners
families adopting or fostering children from high-risk countries
Using Pediacel, Prevnar 13, Men B (excludes Hep B only) at 2 and 4 mo visits
.33 PEDIACEL (2 3 and 4 mos)
.125 PCV 13
0.5 MenB

0.96 total

Using INFANRIX HEXA
http://www.ema.europa.eu/docs/en_GB/...C500032505.pdf

page 2
(2 3 and 4 mos)

adsorbed on Al(OH)3 0.5 milligrams Al3+
2 adsorbed on AlPO4 0.32 milligrams Al3+
0.125 PREVNAR
0.5 MENB
Total 1.45


A statement from:

https://www.fda.gov/biologicsbloodva.../ucm284520.htm

Quote:
The FDA study found that the maximum amount of aluminum an infant could be exposed to over the first year of life would be 4.225 milligrams (mg), based on the recommended schedule of vaccines. Federal Regulations for biological products (including vaccines) limit the amount of aluminum in the recommended individual dose of biological products, including vaccines, to not more than 0.85-1.25 mg. For example, the amount of aluminum in the hepatitis B vaccine given at birth is 0.25 mg.

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#22 of 48 Old 07-18-2017, 07:27 AM
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I believe a parent who watches their child change before their eyes/ changes are denied by the medical professionals (I have not encountered one, IRL, that I would consider "professional," when it comes to knowledge of vaccines)/ parents start looking for information on their own/ find information such as this/ PRESTO!/ another "conspiracy theorist/anti vaccine/nut job/ is born, right?

The FDA quote above cites both Keith and Mitkus. I love how they mention the Hep B birth dose but leave out the much higher amounts that an infant receives at 2 mos. Why mislead like that? Why not use a more relevant #?

It's worth reading (bold added)
http://vaccinepapers.org/category/aluminum/
Debunking Aluminum Adjuvant, Part 2: FDA’s Flawed Study of Al Adjuvant Toxicity (The Mitkus study)

Quote:
Keith and Mitkus are theoretical calculations of aluminum intake and excretion. They calculate the accumulation of aluminum, and compare it to a level considered safe (determined by animal experiments with ingested aluminum). Mitkus has a more detailed calculation and uses a lower “safe” level of aluminum exposure. Since Mitkus is the more rigorous and more recent study, only Mitkus is considered here.
and

Quote:
The Mitkus paper has three fatal flaws:
1) The MRL is derived from feeding experiments with aluminum salts, not experiments with injected aluminum adjuvant. The safety of injected aluminum adjuvant must be determined from experiments with injected aluminum adjuvant, not ingested aluminum salts. Scientific studies have established that injected aluminum adjuvant has unique toxic properties and ways of moving around the body (“kinetics”) that are not the same as aluminum absorbed from digestion. Studies demonstrating the unique toxicity and kinetics of aluminum adjuvant are described in these articles:


Is it reasonable to minimize aluminum exposure except in cases where the benefit clearly outweighs the risk?
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#23 of 48 Old 07-18-2017, 05:23 PM
 
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I believe the studies not only looked at oral aluminum consumption, but that the test animals were all ADULTS.

Come on...
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#24 of 48 Old 07-19-2017, 09:39 AM
 
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Clicking on the article that Bow supplied, I decided to go and read the part one first.

Debunking Aluminum Adjuvant, Part 1: “The Aluminum Is Gone In Just a Few Days!”
http://vaccinepapers.org/debunking-a...juvant-part-1/

So it's interesting and really terrifying that the authors are reassured that they didn't find al in the blood or urine of premature infants post vaccination without considering "so if it's not there, where is it?".

At the end of the article under NOTES, Vaccine Papers talks about the response they got when they emailed the researcher to ask about Al levels post vaccination:

Quote:
* Pre-vaccination blood level of aluminum was 11.1 ng/mL, and this was the only aluminum measurement provided. Dr. Movsas did not disclose post-vaccine aluminum levels, which is worrisome. I requested the aluminum measurements from Dr Movsas by both email and telephone. She did not respond to email. On the phone, she angrily yelled “I am not answering questions about that study at this time!”, and ended the call abruptly. This behavior is a cause for concern about the political forces that may be influencing Dr Movsas.
Dr. Humphries wrote and asked where the aluminum went and here is the response she received:

Quote:
“So…we don’t really know what happens to the aluminum at this point in time. As you said, more research is needed in this area.”
Around 23:34 timestamp
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#25 of 48 Old 07-19-2017, 06:16 PM
 
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I'm so impressed with the digging you've done @Bow and @samaxtics . Thank you!
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#26 of 48 Old 07-19-2017, 06:35 PM
 
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Wanted to add, that science as linked in this thread is the reason that vaccine supporters don't usually want to discuss details.
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#27 of 48 Old 07-20-2017, 05:29 AM
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Maybe we get some support from the pro side with a little discussion on why the US infants are being denied "less jabs." It's not as though Merck and Sanofi (joint venture.. image that) haven't been trying.
See V419.
https://www.merck.com/research/pipel...ckPipeline.pdf

What's the hold up and why did Sanofi go it alone in Europe?
http://adisinsight.springer.com/drug...37616#disabled

Now there are some differences in the composition btwn this one and the one that was just recommended for use in the UK (3 vs 5 pertussis antigens and the formulation for HIB portion) but come on, they are all safe and effective, right?

edit

This is a little confusing
http://www.prnewswire.co.uk/news-rel...569389291.html

Vaxelis®, New Fully-liquid Paediatric Hexavalent Vaccine Approved in the European Union

near the bottom

About Sanofi Pasteur MSD http://www.spmsd.com
Sanofi Pasteur MSD is a European joint venture formed between Sanofi Pasteur (the vaccine division of Sanofi) and Merck (known as MSD outside the United States and Canada).
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#28 of 48 Old 07-20-2017, 07:16 AM
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Here is the
SUMMARY OF PRODUCT CHARACTERISTICS
for Vaxelis

http://www.ema.europa.eu/docs/en_GB/...C500202435.pdf

you can see the aluminum adjuvant portion is different


adsorbed on aluminium phosphate (0.17 mg Al3+)
2 adsorbed on amorphous aluminium hydroxyphosphate sulfate (0.15 mg Al3+)

or
150 micrograms AAHS
170 micrograms alum phosphate

I believe both of these hexa vaccines had to increase the amount of Hep B antigen. Will have to double check later unless someone else wants to take a look?
@samaxtics (anyone)
I'm noticing that nodules at the injection site are listed under "common" (
up to 1 in 10 people) in some of these inserts
Wasn't there mention of that being very infrequent in a previous study (studies?)

I know that there was discussion of a protective effect. If you know where to find that and what the evidence for it is, can you please post it?




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Last edited by Bow; 07-20-2017 at 09:52 AM.
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#29 of 48 Old 07-20-2017, 07:09 PM
 
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This goes in a different direction, but I thought it quite interesting. https://www.healio.com/hepatology/vi...t=239810327545

Quote:
Seven infants born to the women with HBV had immunoprophylaxis failure. The mothers of these children had HBV DNA over 8 log10 copies/mL. While infants born to mothers with HBV DNA below or at 8 log10 had no risk for immunoprophylaxis failure, the risk for immunoprophylaxis failure in those born to mothers with HBV DNA between 8 log10 and 8.99 log10 was 8.6% and 3.1% for those with HBV DNA above 9 log10.
Compared with infants who had no risk for immunoprophylaxis failure, 5.79% (95% CI, 2.36-11.56) of infants born to women with HBV DNA at or over 8 log10 and 4.52% (95% CI, 1.83-9.08) of infants born to women with HBeAg-positive status had immunoprophylaxis failure.
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#30 of 48 Old 07-21-2017, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deborah View Post
This goes in a different direction, but I thought it quite interesting. https://www.healio.com/hepatology/vi...t=239810327545
Has anyone found any studies or information regarding the "vaccinated in infancy," rate of these infected mothers?

These are general thoughts/questions (not researched):

In high endemic areas, shouldn't we have some stats by now, on protection afforded by the vaccines, as the mothers reach childbearing age?

My understanding is that you can separate vaccine protective status from natural infection immunity?

Is the emphasis so strong, on vaccinating children/infants at extremely low risk, that the areas or populations with high infection rates are not even being reached?

Has there been mutation in the hep b strains?

After @Deborah posted above, I looked around a little last night. What I found was not reassuring but as you know this takes hours and hours to feel like you have a really good understanding. That post, (viral load) also made me wonder about this "dried blood," capable of transmitting infection for up to a week, stuff. That seems like scare tactic, total BS, imho. Yes, dialysis centers should have measures for protection in place and mothers who may take infants to places where people are sharing needles or are earning their $ in the sex industry, should be warned. You also should not let your child use an infected persons razor or toothbrush. Blood to broken skin barrier or mucosal micro abraded surfaces seems to be the danger, not saliva.

Here's one that touches on vaccination in the mothers but seems to give no useful information on how this is playing out with protection for infants? PDF is paywall protected, so ....?

bold added
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...420?via%3Dihub

Quote:
With the universal administration of HB vaccine, anti-HBs conferred by HB vaccine can be found increasingly in pregnant women, and maternal anti-HBs can be passed through the placenta. This study was designed to evaluate the effect of hepatitis B immunization on preventing mother-to-infant transmission of HBV and on the immune response of infants towards HB vaccine.
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Last edited by Bow; 07-21-2017 at 10:03 PM.
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