Correcting Robert F. Kennedy Jr.’s vaccine ‘facts’ - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 30 Old 09-22-2017, 08:51 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Correcting Robert F. Kennedy Jr.’s vaccine ‘facts’

https://www.statnews.com/2017/09/22/...accine-safety/

RFK Jr. did an interview recently that he insisted on being in a Q and A format which meant opposing views and contradictions weren't there.

So, Offit has written a rebuttal to it.

On Ethylmercury:

Quote:
During the interview, Kennedy said that some babies were being injected with 25 micrograms of ethylmercury, which is part of a preservative called thimerosol that is used in multi-dose vials of influenza vaccine. He claimed that amount to be “100 times” greater than the amount considered to be safe.

As an environmentalist, Kennedy should know that mercury is a natural part of the Earth’s crust. The human body eliminates ethylmercury from vaccines far more efficiently than it eliminates naturally occurring methylmercury.

Babies typically ingest about 360 micrograms of methylmercury during the first 6 months of life, well before they will ever receive their first dose of influenza vaccine. If the 25 micrograms of ethylmercury in vaccines is 100 times greater than what Kennedy claimed is safe, then simply by living on Earth, by 6 months of age babies will have ingested an amount of mercury that is 1,440 times greater than Kennedy’s safety limit.

According to Kennedy’s calculations, all of us are massively intoxicated with mercury. The only way to avoid this would be to move to another planet.
Amazing we aren't all dead!

On to Kenndy's claims about placebo testing:

Quote:
Kennedy said, “We need to, prior to licensing vaccines, do gold standard safety testing, like every other drug approval requires. We need to do double-blind placebo testing.”

Here’s an example of the kind of testing that vaccines are put through. One of the currently licensed vaccines against rotavirus was tested in a placebo-controlled, prospective, 11-country, four-year trial of more than 70,000 infants before being approved. That’s fairly typical of most pre-licensure trials. But STAT was stuck having to report Kennedy’s remarks as is, even though Branswell knew they were false. That was the deal. The interview had to be printed without contradiction.
Then Offit gets into Kennedy's claims that the Hep B vaccine was approved after "fewer than five days of testing".

Quote:
Safety monitoring for the hepatitis B vaccine, like all vaccines tested before being licensed, involved determining side effects in the vaccinated and unvaccinated group for weeks after each dose. Indeed, some subsets of vaccinated individuals have been monitored for 30 years after hepatitis B vaccination.
I thought these issues could make for an interesting discussion.

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#2 of 30 Old 09-22-2017, 10:36 AM
 
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"During the interview, Kennedy said that some babies were being injected with 25 micrograms of ethylmercury, which is part of a preservative called thimerosol that is used in multi-dose vials of influenza vaccine. He claimed that amount to be “100 times” greater than the amount considered to be safe.

As an environmentalist, Kennedy should know that mercury is a natural part of the Earth’s crust. The human body eliminates ethylmercury from vaccines far more efficiently than it eliminates naturally occurring methylmercury.

Babies typically ingest about 360 micrograms of methylmercury during the first 6 months of life, well before they will ever receive their first dose of influenza vaccine. If the 25 micrograms of ethylmercury in vaccines is 100 times greater than what Kennedy claimed is safe, then simply by living on Earth, by 6 months of age babies will have ingested an amount of mercury that is 1,440 times greater than Kennedy’s safety limit.

According to Kennedy’s calculations, all of us are massively intoxicated with mercury. The only way to avoid this would be to move to another planet."


Kennedy was likely talking about the amount of mercury a baby receives on vaccine day. 25 micrograms is over the safe daily limit.

Offitt is talking about a 6 months period. That is a very different denominator, and Offitt is likely deliberate obscuring the fact that mercury in vaccines is over the safe known daily limit.

As per mercury being part of the earths crust (and thereby implying it is safe)- well, we all know natural does not necessarily equal safe (a point pro-vaxxers continually make) Anyone want to ingest uranium? I think not.

Ethyl mercury does leave the body faster than methyl. That does not make it safe, per se. It may make it safer - but safer is not the same as safe. Someone with more knowledge than I can comment on this if they like: I suspect ethylmercury may be less likely to bioaccumulate (which is good) but if the damage from exposure is acute, then whether it bioaccumulates or not is somewhat moot. I would not knowingly give an infant or young child something with ethyl or methyl mercury....mercury is a neurotoxin.
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#3 of 30 Old 09-22-2017, 11:03 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I think you are misunderstanding the point. If Kenndy's claims that 25 micrograms of ethylmercury is "100 times" more dangerous than what a baby can safely be exposed to in a day, that means that .25 micrograms is roughly what he considers the safe daily limit. .25 x 180 (6 months) is only 45 micrograms. So, by his theory, a baby cannot safely ingest more than 45 micrograms in a 6 month period. Yet, babies are "naturally" typically exposed to 360 micrograms by that point, well past his alleged safe limit of mercury.

The EPA limit is based on drinking water. We all agree that microgram per microgram, methylmercury (not in vaccines) is worse than ethylmercury (in vaccines). Yet, a single can of tuna has more methylmercury (the more dangerous mercury) than a flu vaccine has of the safer ethylmercury. Yet, no one is suggesting we are all going to die or get poisoned from eating a can of tuna.

I ate a tuna fish salad sandwich just the other day! Still here, still kickin

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Quote:
Ethyl mercury does leave the body faster than methyl.
Did you mean to write "does leave the blood faster"? I believe ethylmercury leaves the blood faster but it isn't totally excreted.

*******************************

And once again pro-vaxxers don't understand the difference between injected and ingested.

************************************************** ***

From a CDC study:

Quote:
The difference in manifested toxicity of MeHg and EtHg are likely the result of the differences in exposure, metabolism, and elimination from the body, rather than differences in mechanisms of action between the two. https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/398_2016_1
Kennedy and Redwood wrote a blog about a new CDC study (linked above) contradicting what is stated on CDC's website:

New CDC Research Debunks Agency's Assertion That Mercury in Vaccines Is Safe


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Offit was so wrong about aluminium I'm surprised anyone would listen to him on mercury.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samaxtics View Post
Did you mean to write "does leave the blood faster"? I believe ethylmercury leaves the blood faster but it isn't totally excreted.

*******************************

And it likely ends up in the brain according to Burbacher


*********************************

Offit was so wrong about aluminium I'm surprised anyone would listen to him on mercury.
Me too. But when you are dealing with a religion and its followers, I guess they just believe.
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This line from Offitt is also untrue:

"Babies typically ingest about 360 micrograms of methylmercury during the first 6 months of life, well before they will ever receive their first dose of influenza vaccine."

Many babies get their first shot of mercury as fetuses - in the form of the flu vaccine. While there are vaccines without mercury (or have trace amounts of mercury) these may have to be asked for and are not always available. Ethyl mercury does cross the placenta.
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#7 of 30 Old 09-22-2017, 05:21 PM
 
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Whenever someone says something like this:
Quote:
As an environmentalist, Kennedy should know that mercury is a natural part of the Earth’s crust.
I know that the person is a corporate apologist.

It doesn't matter what is in the earth's crust. It matters what is biologically available. Human beings have done a lot over the last few hundred years to massively increase the quantity of mercury which is biologically available. The only people I've ever heard pushing the "crust" argument are people who are covering up the massive increase in biologically available contaminants due to industrial activity/carelessness. Of course, we've seen in other places, that Offit definitely stands on the pro-corporate cover-up side. See, for example, his association with American Council on Science and Health http://www.motherjones.com/politics/...s-fundraising/ I chose Mother Jones since they have been fanatically pro-vaccine in recent years, so they should be an acceptable source.

Quote:
The human body eliminates ethylmercury from vaccines far more efficiently than it eliminates naturally occurring methylmercury.
Claims that "the human body" is good at eliminating injected ethylmercury are based on a very small number of extremely funky studies. Since methylmercury isn't injected, the relevance of the comparison is a bit shaky.

Frankly, I'm always puzzled by the enthusiasm by parents for injecting babies with ANY form of mercury. In fact I doubt if many parents would be all that pleased, if someone explained what thimerosal is, what sort of studies had been done to demonstrate safety, and the reality that there are other, somewhat less toxic options.
@teacozy , if a doctor walked into an appointment for a baby of yours and said: "we only have the mercury containing flu vaccine, ya want it?" Would you respond enthusiastically: "of course! I won't bother to call around and find a non-mercury version, too much trouble." If you and your baby were suddenly transported to a developing country and you were faced with your kid receiving multiple mercury containing vaccines, would you have even a twinge of concern?

I think it is horrendous that poor children in developing countries are receiving multiple vaccines containing thimerosal.
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#8 of 30 Old 09-22-2017, 07:11 PM
 
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Offit cited one of his own studies. Quite interesting to read. http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...12/6/1394.long

Quoting Jake Crosby's comment on Offit's article
Quote:
For example, when he says: “Babies typically ingest about 360 micrograms of methylmercury”, he cites an article he published in Pediatrics nearly 15 years ago. But as a table in the article makes clear, that number is actually the FDA’s maximum safety limit of exposure by six months of age for infants of normal weight. The ATSDR’s safety limit is substantially lower, and the EPA’s is even lower than that.
Table referred to is #2 in the article. Let me see if I can copy it over.

Didn't work, sorry. You'll have to find Table 2 in the article and take a look.
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#9 of 30 Old 09-22-2017, 07:38 PM
 
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In other words, Offit claimed that babies ARE ingesting a certain amount of mercury, but in fact the numbers (from his own article) are about the maximum level that various agencies consider to be within the bounds of safety, NOT the amounts that babies are actually "eating".

In other words, he was either dishonest, or sloppy.
@teacozy could I recommend actually checking Offit's sources when he makes claims like that? He doesn't have a great track record for accuracy and care in citing science for public consumption.
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#10 of 30 Old 09-22-2017, 09:06 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post
This line from Offitt is also untrue:

"Babies typically ingest about 360 micrograms of methylmercury during the first 6 months of life, well before they will ever receive their first dose of influenza vaccine."

Many babies get their first shot of mercury as fetuses - in the form of the flu vaccine. While there are vaccines without mercury (or have trace amounts of mercury) these may have to be asked for and are not always available. Ethyl mercury does cross the placenta.
He's clearly talking about and using numbers from the birth-6 month age group. If we included mercury levels from in utero, the amount would obviously be higher.

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#11 of 30 Old 09-22-2017, 09:13 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deborah View Post
Whenever someone says something like this: I know that the person is a corporate apologist.

It doesn't matter what is in the earth's crust. It matters what is biologically available. Human beings have done a lot over the last few hundred years to massively increase the quantity of mercury which is biologically available. The only people I've ever heard pushing the "crust" argument are people who are covering up the massive increase in biologically available contaminants due to industrial activity/carelessness. Of course, we've seen in other places, that Offit definitely stands on the pro-corporate cover-up side. See, for example, his association with American Council on Science and Health http://www.motherjones.com/politics/...s-fundraising/ I chose Mother Jones since they have been fanatically pro-vaccine in recent years, so they should be an acceptable source.

Claims that "the human body" is good at eliminating injected ethylmercury are based on a very small number of extremely funky studies. Since methylmercury isn't injected, the relevance of the comparison is a bit shaky.

Frankly, I'm always puzzled by the enthusiasm by parents for injecting babies with ANY form of mercury. In fact I doubt if many parents would be all that pleased, if someone explained what thimerosal is, what sort of studies had been done to demonstrate safety, and the reality that there are other, somewhat less toxic options.
@teacozy , if a doctor walked into an appointment for a baby of yours and said: "we only have the mercury containing flu vaccine, ya want it?" Would you respond enthusiastically: "of course! I won't bother to call around and find a non-mercury version, too much trouble." If you and your baby were suddenly transported to a developing country and you were faced with your kid receiving multiple mercury containing vaccines, would you have even a twinge of concern?

I think it is horrendous that poor children in developing countries are receiving multiple vaccines containing thimerosal.
Actually, it does matter what's in the earth's crust because it means we are constantly exposed to it. He isn't saying it's safe because it's in the earth's crust, he is pointing out we are exposed to a lot more than the trivial amount in vaccines BECAUSE it is in the earth's crust.

The whole quote in context is "As an environmentalist, Kennedy should know that mercury is a natural part of the Earth’s crust. As a consequence, methylmercury (environmental mercury) is contained in water and anything made from water, like breast milk and infant formula. The human body eliminates ethylmercury from vaccines far more efficiently than it eliminates naturally occurring methylmercury."

And yes, I would give my kids the flu vaccine with thimerosal if that is what they had. The reduction in risk of influenza would be worth it and I am satisfied by the many safety studies showing the preservative to be safe.

I'd be even more inclined to give them thimerosal vaccines in a developing country without the resources to treat complications from VPDs like we have here in the US. It wouldn't even be a question. If they are deemed good and safe enough for those kids, then they're good enough for mine.

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#12 of 30 Old 09-22-2017, 09:21 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deborah View Post
Offit cited one of his own studies. Quite interesting to read. http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...12/6/1394.long

Quoting Jake Crosby's comment on Offit's article Table referred to is #2 in the article. Let me see if I can copy it over.

Didn't work, sorry. You'll have to find Table 2 in the article and take a look.
Since we are posting comments from the thread, Dorit's response to that:

Quote:
Re limits of ethyl mercury: the article in question actually addresses the safety limits by EPA, and explains why the assumptions they rely on were problematic. It also explains why the methyl mercury limits are not the right measure for ethyl mercury. So while the commenter is right that the article should have said “can safely ingest” instead of typically ingest, the main point – the amount of ethyl mercury in influenza vaccines is trivial compared to the safe exposure from food – stands.
In the next comment, he says "Even using FDA’s limits, mercury exposure from flu shots is way above safety levels. The limits may have been set for methylmercury as opposed to ethylmercury makes no difference, both have been shown to be extremely neurotoxic."

To which she points out:

Quote:
The FDA clearly disagrees that thimerosal levels are above its safety levels. The FDA says:
“thimerosal has been the subject of numerous studies (see Bibliography- Notable Studies and Assessments Supporting the Safe Use of Thimerosal in Vaccines) and has a long record of safe and effective use preventing bacterial and fungal contamination of vaccines, with no ill effects established other than minor local reactions at the site of injection

There is a robust body of peer-reviewed, scientific studies conducted in the United States and countries around the world that support the safety of thimerosal-containing vaccines. The scientific evidence collected over the past 15 years does not show any evidence of harm, including serious neurodevelopmental disorders, from use of thimerosal in vaccines.”

So no. Thimerosal is not above the FDA’s safety limits.
Then all of a sudden he says he's "not interested in FDA talking points" even though he was the one who brought it up. Imagine that!

I really need to go through all those comments when I get a chance.

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#13 of 30 Old 09-23-2017, 05:56 PM
 
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Neat dodge of the problem about environmental levels of mercury and the mercury in the "earth's crust" silliness.

I'll try to make it simple.

If you look around the surface of the earth, you'll note that it is quite varied. Mountains and valleys and rivers. Outcrops of rock, deserts, forests. Immense differences from one part of the planet's surface to another part.

Minerals and metals are also not gently distributed randomly over the surface/crust. Hence the existence of "mines". Copper mines. Gold mines. Silver mines. Mercury mines. Coal mines.

I hope you are following me so far.

If someone happened to be a mercury miner, or someone who worked with mercury (see mad hatters), they were very likely to end up with mercury poisoning. For a few hundred years, going to a medical doctor also brought opportunities for mercury poisoning. But just living on the planet didn't mean that you got significant exposure to mercury. Even though it exists in the earth's crust. The process of industrialization over the last 300 years has massively increased exposures to all sorts of stuff that "is part of the earth's crust" because we have been digging it up and spreading it around.

I hope you are continuing to follow this brief historical survey.

Now, people who ran operations like lead smelters, got concerned that people might sue them for spreading a toxic substance, so somewhere along the line someone developed the brilliant idea of claiming that something exists in the earth's crust and therefore the people who got sick because they lived near a power plant that was using coal that contains mercury just don't understand...

https://www.epa.gov/mercury/basic-in...-about-mercury

Yep, volcanoes emit mercury. Therefore it is okay if powerplants spout it out and even better if we inject thimerosal into newborns.

Sigh.

Once again, the phrase about the "earth's crust" is a dead give away that someone is covering for a polluting or poisoning industry. Never fails.
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#14 of 30 Old 09-23-2017, 08:38 PM
 
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The reality is that mercury in vaccines has never been properly tested for safety:

This is research showing the effect on the brain of mercury:

Tea, every flu shot you have increases your chance of getting Alzheimer's etc.
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If a substance has a skull and crossbones on the label, I refuse to ingest and/or inject it simply on the basis of common sense.

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Unfortunately, common sense is not as common as it used to be.

This is an example of mercury poisoning:
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#17 of 30 Old 09-24-2017, 06:09 PM
 
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Correcting Dr. Paul Offit's "facts"

http://www.autisminvestigated.com/da...ct-paul-offit/

Quote:
“The CDC’s question prior to this study was “Does influenza vaccine cause spontaneous abortions?” The answer to that question was no. It was only after investigators sub-stratified their data to include those who had or hadn’t received a vaccine the previous year that they could find statistical significance.”
This is directly from the study, contradicting Offit’s claim:
“The overall adjusted odds ratio (aOR) was 2.0 (95% CI, 1.1–3.6)”
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...64410X17308666
As someone who holds a degree in epidemiology (unlike Offit) and has analyzed the database used in this study (also unlike Offit), I can assure you that that is a significant association. The “95% CI” (confidence interval) excludes the number 1.0. Therefore, the answer to their study question would point in the “yes” direction.
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#18 of 30 Old 09-24-2017, 06:28 PM
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Regarding @teacozy 's original post, I'm looking for information to validate Kennedy's statement regarding the recombinant Hep B vaccine.

I'm going to repost both quotes for easy comparison.

Kennedy
https://www.statnews.com/2017/08/21/...estion-answer/

Quote:
We need to do double-blind placebo testing. Because particularly when it comes to injecting aluminum or mercury into babies, the consequences may be latent. In other words, they may not manifest or diagnosed to age 3 or 4. So the current protocols, which require testing for vaccines of sometimes as little as 48 hours, are not going to disclose the kind of dangers that the public and the regulators ought to know about.
The hepatitis B vaccines that are currently approved had fewer than five days of safety testing. That means that if the child has a seizure on the sixth day, it’s never seen. If the child dies, it’s never seen. If the child gets food allergies or ADD or ADHD, which don’t manifest for four or five years or aren’t diagnosed or autism, which usually isn’t diagnosed until age 4, the regulators will never see that prior to licensing the vaccine.
Offit
https://www.statnews.com/2017/09/22/...accine-safety/

Quote:
Perhaps most outrageous was Kennedy’s claim that “the hepatitis B vaccines that are currently approved had fewer than five days of safety testing. That means that if the child has a seizure on the sixth day, it’s never seen. If the child dies, it’s never seen.” Safety monitoring for the hepatitis B vaccine, like all vaccines tested before being licensed, involved determining side effects in the vaccinated and unvaccinated group for weeks after each dose. Indeed, some subsets of vaccinated individuals have been monitored for 30 years after hepatitis B vaccination.
So far, I have this

From NVIC
http://www.nvic.org/nvic-archives/ne...toldstory.aspx

Quote:
Hep B Vaccine Licensed By FDA Without Adequate Proof of Long Term Safety - In 1986, the FDA gave Merck & Co. a license to market the first recombinant DNA hepatitis B vaccine, which replaced the old hepatitis B vaccines made from blood taken from human chronic hepatitis B virus carriers. In awarding Merck & Co. and, later, SmithKline Beecham Pharmaceuticals, licenses to market their genetically engineered hepatitis B vaccines in the U.S., the FDA allowed both drug companies to use "safety" studies which only included a few thousand children monitored for only four or five days after vaccination to check for reactions. As "proof" their hepatitis B vaccine is safe to be used in children, Merck & Co. stated in their 1993 product insert that "In a group of studies, 1636 doses of RECOMBIVAX HB were administered to 653 healthy infants and children (up to 10 years of age) who were monitored for 5 days after each dose."
Merck & Co. found that injection site and systemic complaints, such as fatigue and weakness, fever, headache and arthralgia (joint pain), were reported following up to 17 percent of all hepatitis B injections. Because the FDA did not require drug companies to provide scientific evidence that hepatitis B vaccine does not compromise the immune and neurological systems of children and adults over weeks, months or years post-vaccination, Merck & Co. warns in the 1996 product insert that "As with any vaccine, there is the possibility that broad use of the vaccine could reveal adverse reactions not observed in clinical trials" and SmithKline Beecham (1993) has a similar warning that "it is possible that expanded commercial use of the vaccine could reveal rare adverse reactions.
and this

Merck
http://novaccine.com/wp-content/uplo...ombivax_pi.pdf
page 7 under
Adverse reactions

Quote:
In three clinical studies, 434 doses of RECOMBIVAX HB, 5 mcg, were administered to 147 healthy infants and children (up to 10 years of age) who were monitored for 5 days after each dose. Injection site reactions and systemic complaints were reported following 0.2% and 10.4% of the injections, respectively.
Hoping someone can post the studies to which Offit was referring. I would like to read the studies that were done on infants and children that involved determining side effects in the vaccinated and unvaccinated group for weeks after each dose.

I can't seem to find it yet.

Anyone?

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#19 of 30 Old 09-24-2017, 06:50 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Bow View Post

Hoping someone can post the studies to which Offit was referring. I would like to read the studies that were done on infants and children that involved determining side effects in the vaccinated and unvaccinated group for weeks after each dose.

I can't seem to find it yet.

Anyone?
If Offit says there were studies there must have been studies. After all, he is an authority.
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#20 of 30 Old 09-25-2017, 08:18 PM
 
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If Offit says there were studies there must have been studies. After all, he is an authority.
This isn't the first time Offit claimed to have some data and it wasn't actually there...
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#21 of 30 Old 09-26-2017, 10:02 AM
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Offit link

Quote:
Branswell knew that the FDA does require placebo-controlled trials before licensure. So she pushed back. “Sir, that’s done all the time,” she said. “That is done all the time.”
Check out the placebo in this older study on Hep A and adverse reaction, consideration times.

518 children were given the "placebo."

2nd paragraph 2nd page

http://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJM199208133270702

"Alum diluent," is used in a current Hep A package insert, in an efficacy trial.

https://www.fda.gov/downloads/biolog.../ucm110049.pdf

I'm having a hard time reconciling what I believed to be a law (?) about experimenting on children, without providing benefit to the child?
Anyone know of a thread or have comments on that?

This is an interesting discussion @teacozy.
Do you agree with Offit, that Kennedy's claim was "outrageous?"
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RE: (Chisso-)Minamata disease, AKA, Mad Hatters' Disease, Pink's Disease, Erethism, acrodynia, mercury poisoning have been around a long time. The Minamata problem has actually around for over 100 years - the corporation that caused the problem is simply waiting for all of the victims to die. I imagine the American corporations will do the same for health problems caused by poisons in the vaccines. $$$$$$$.
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Originally Posted by applejuice View Post
RE: (Chisso-)Minamata disease, AKA, Mad Hatters' Disease, Pink's Disease, Erethism, acrodynia, mercury poisoning have been around a long time. The Minamata problem has actually around for over 100 years - the corporation that caused the problem is simply waiting for all of the victims to die. I imagine the American corporations will do the same for health problems caused by poisons in the vaccines. $$$$$$$.
Good summary. But the vaccine supporters/mercury lovers won't concede that vaccines could possibly cause any problems. Magic. If it is in a vaccine it is magically safe.
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#24 of 30 Old 09-27-2017, 05:33 PM
 
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https://jameslyonsweiler.com/2017/09...it-vs-kennedy/

Quote:
In responding to Kennedy on mercury, Offit asserts that infants receive “360 micrograms of methylmercury during the first 6 months of life, well before they will ever receive their first dose of influenza vaccine”. There is no citation provided for this; we can presume it may be another wild guess. But Offit ignores two important facts:
FACT: Risk of toxicity increases with cumulative exposure. The dose makes the poison. Cumulative exposures increase total risk of toxicity. In contrasting oral vs. injected mercury, Offit is performing a distracting false comparison. In fact, if his claim is true, the level of concern over mercury from vaccines is increased. The toxicity from oral and injected sources may be additive, or multiplicative. Either/or comparisons do not make sense if one is concerned over toxicity The body doesn’t say “oh, I already have methyl mercury from source A, so MORE mercury in the form of ethyl mercury is just fine”. Therefore, Offit’s position makes me more concerned, not less concerned, about mercury in the flu vaccine for infants.
Many vaccine supporters seem to think that way about any toxic substance which occurs in vaccines and the environment.
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An aside, but related...

I do recall in history class that one of the causes of the fall of the Roman Empire was said to be lead poisoning. How? Those Romans loved to drink their wine and grape juice from copper goblets. The copper gave the wine and grape juice a funny taste, so the goblets were lined with lead, which still leeched into the juice and wine, but did not leave the funny taste. Supposedly, there is plenty of lead in the old Roman bones from that era. That is what the professor said, anyway.

Using that, I cannot wonder if our remains will leave behind evidence of aluminium and mercury. With aluminium in our pots, foil, medicines, toothpaste, water, and vaccines, and mercury in our teeth there will have to be some of it left behind. Will that be one of the many causes of the fall of the West?
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An aside, but related...

I do recall in history class that one of the causes of the fall of the Roman Empire was said to be lead poisoning. How? Those Romans loved to drink their wine and grape juice from copper goblets. The copper gave the wine and grape juice a funny taste, so the goblets were lined with lead, which still leeched into the juice and wine, but did not leave the funny taste. Supposedly, there is plenty of lead in the old Roman bones from that era. That is what the professor said, anyway.

Using that, I cannot wonder if our remains will leave behind evidence of aluminium and mercury. With aluminium in our pots, foil, medicines, toothpaste, water, and vaccines, and mercury in our teeth there will have to be some of it left behind. Will that be one of the many causes of the fall of the West?
I'd heard that it was the lead pipes used for water that did it. Just searched a bit and without doing an in depth bit of research, it sounds as though the current consensus is that lead didn't do them in.

There were so many factors playing into Roman cultural, financial and social difficulties that trying to point to just one as key is risky. My own guess/thinking would be that classical civilization had simply run out of juice. No new or original ideas. Just the same old, same old. And new stuff, like Christianity, definitely got contaminated by the old world views and structures. For example, the Catholic Church took over a lot of structural bits from the Roman Empire. Not a nifty idea, IMO.

But we are wandering off topic, sorry!
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#27 of 30 Old 09-29-2017, 03:27 AM
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getting back to something that I started in post #21
Quote:
Here’s an example of the kind of testing that vaccines are put through. One of the currently licensed vaccines against rotavirus was tested in a placebo-controlled, prospective, 11-country, four-year trial of more than 70,000 infants before being approved. That’s fairly typical of most pre-licensure trials. But STAT was stuck having to report Kennedy’s remarks as is, even though Branswell knew they were false. That was the deal. The interview had to be printed without contradiction.
Offit says a placebo controlled pre- licensure trial with testing of 70,000 infants 6-12 weeks of age (age found in example link) is "fairly typical."

I randomly picked a few vaccines.

This is a Hep A vaccine
https://www.fda.gov/downloads/biolog.../ucm110049.pdf

page 3 informs
Safety was evaluated in over 10,000 for the entire age range of 1 year to 85 years of age

page 4
Five clinical trials included 4374 children 12 to 23 month of age. A total of 1250 got the vaccine with one or more other vaccines

page 7
In a double blind, placebo-controlled efficacy trial 1037 healthy children 2-16 years of age either got the vaccine or alum diluent
So there's your placebo

a combo vaccine
https://www.gsksource.com/pharma/con...f/PEDIARIX.PDF

page 5
During 14 clinical trials 8,088 infants received or more doses

a flu vaccine
https://www.fda.gov/downloads/biolog.../ucm305089.pdf

The safety analysis set included 1841 children 6 months through 35 months of age
and 2506 children 3 years through 8 years of age.

one in the works (bold added)
http://www.ajpb.com/news/adjuvanted-...young-children
Adjuvanted Influenza Vaccine Beneficial for Young Children

Quote:
Findings from a new phase 3 study suggest that an adjuvanted influenza vaccine (aQIV) that protects against 4 strains of influenza may be superior to non-adjuvanted quadrivalent vaccine, according to a press release.

Included in the study were 10,612 pediatric patients aged 6 months to less than 6 years who received 1 or 2 doses or aQIV or a non-adjuvanted vaccine. Endpoints included confirmed influenza and immunogenicity against influenza A and/or B.
Does anyone see anything close to 70,000?
A saline placebo group?
Quote:
Branswell knew that the FDA does require placebo-controlled trials before licensure. So she pushed back. “Sir, that’s done all the time,” she said. “That is done all the time.”
There are some longer observation times for safety (5 days), in some of these but I think it is fairly evident, who is being disingenuous, when comparing Kennedy and Offit's statements. I didn't see a true placebo anywhere. Only varying doses, one vaccine vs another, the usual. Could have missed something in one of these but it doesn't really matter, because I think most of us know what Kennedy was saying.

These studies, say nothing about the long term effects, of the entire schedule. Pretty simple.

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getting back to something that I started in post #21
Offit says a placebo controlled pre- licensure trial with testing of 70,000 infants 6-12 weeks of age (age found in example link) is "fairly typical."
That huge and very expensive study came about because of Rotashield turning out to have some serious side-effects that were not discovered in the smaller studies done in advance of approval. Once there was an admitted problem, new rotavirus vaccines were subject to stricter testing.

Offit was cherry picking and pretending the study was average and typical when it absolutely was no such thing.

This thread started out as a critique of Kennedy and seems to be ending up as an evidence-based critique of Offit. Feels quite normal.

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If Offit had so much evidence exonerating ethylmercury, why didn't he apply for the $100,00 the World Mercury Project was offering? He could have donated it to his hospital to benefit patients and publicly shown up Kennedy.
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If Offit had so much evidence exonerating ethylmercury, why didn't he apply for the $100,00 the World Mercury Project was offering? He could have donated it to his hospital to benefit patients and publicly shown up Kennedy.
I think the pro-vaxers handled this challenge in two ways:

1) Claim that it was rigged and no evidence would be acceptable

2) Claim that they had the evidence needed, but if you reviewed what they offered it did not, in any way, meet the criteria. In fact the people playing this game wouldn't quote the actual statement outlining what was needed, but would paraphrase it so it sort of fit the evidence they wanted to push.

I'm pretty sure Kennedy had a conversation with Offit. https://www.facebook.com/RevolutionF...6790284061899/
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