Okay, here's a bit 'o' history. I have three children ds age 5.875, dd1 age 2.5 & dd age 1 month.
Just before dd2's birth ds started coughing. Cough got much worse during dd2's first week, took him to our homeopathic MD at week's end. We were also dealing with dd2's juandice, so my memory is weak. Ds's cough was causing him to get totally red in the face, bulging eyes & making him throw up, not all the time, most often at night. So, its been a month & he is finally on the mend, still coughing, but not as often & not as severly. He had no other symptoms, no fever, no runny nose, no sore throat, no ear infection. When not coughing he was the picture of good health.
Dd1 started coughing about two & a half weeks ago (?). Same presentation. The only real difference is that ds would cough & throw up his entire stomach contense in one go, dd1 throws up each time she coughs, but not as much content. Both were/are definatly throwing up phlegm. Sorry, TMI, but I gotta' tell it like it is, kwim?
So, dd2 now has the same cough. She's had it for about 10 days now. Started out not so bad, but has escalated big time. She is coughing really hard, turning blue in the face. We've had her to the doctor twice now. The second time he prescribed ipecac (homeopathic not the syrup) which is listed as a cure to pertussis, among other things. It suits the symptoms she has at any rate.
Our doc. insists this is viral & not whooping cough. I've been doing a ton of reading tonight & I really think it could be whooping cough.
I read the link about the vit. C & sent dh out to get some powdered vit. C. I have 1/4 tsp (as close as I could get to 1 gram) mixed into 1 tablespoon of breastmilk. I gave dd2 a small dropper full. It induced a coughing fit, but she didn't throw up.
So, my question is if you've dosed an infant with this vit. C/breastmilk combo how did the baby handle it? Did you happen to taste it? I did (I have this thing about tasting things before I give them to my baby) and it tastes, well, like straight vitamin C, bitter.
Thanks for the information. Any thoughts or comments are greatly appreciated! I am so stressed watching my tiny baby deal with this horrible cough. I am so torn, part of me wants to race her to the ER & the other part of me is loathe to turn her over to the medical machine.
Sodium ascorbate is also Vitamin C, a slightly salty taste but IMO better than bitter C.
Will your homeopathic MD do vitamin C by IV or injection for you?
A wonderful book about Vit C is by Thomas Levy Vitamin C Infectious Diseases and Toxins. I highly recommend. From that book it seems like vit C is best taken by Iv or shots for toxins or infectious diseases.
Wishing you children a speedy recovery.
Well, dh bought ascorbic acid powder. And given that we now own a huge bottle of it, I suppose we'll stick with it
We're taking dd2 (and probably dd1) in to see him tomorrow and I'm not leaving the office until one of them has a really good coughing fit. I found a great web site that has a recording of whooping cough. My dd1 matches it to a T!!
I emailed it to my doctor's office. We see Dr. Christian Wessling, for those of you who recognize the name. What really gets me is that I've heard him boast about how he's seen enough cases of whooping cough & he can diagnos it & knows how to treat it, blah, blah, blah. I *know* from the reading I've done (tonight) that it can be hard to diagnos. Often times the patient doesn't exhibit the cough right then & there in the doctor's office (isn't that always the way?) and they seem perfectly well in between coughs.
We're staying up all night tonight with dd2. I am sure that she had an episode of apnea last night. We co-sleep & I woke up for no discernable reason (dd2 wasn't coughing) and she wasn't breathing. Then this evening it happened again while I was holding her. Cripes, this is so scarey!!!
I should have added are you taking lots of vitamin C? That way the baby would be getting it from you also.
I'll be praying for you and your baby
Another thought, do you remember Just Wondering/ Hilary? She would be the person to get in contact with right now.
Yes, I've been taking Vitamin C. I started taking 1000mg per day a few weeks ago (haven't been terribly consistent though, but I am now). I'm the only one who isn't coughing. We're pretty sure my dh (high school art teacher) brought this home before Christmas break. Dd2 was born the day he was due back. Thankfully he took FMLA and has been home for 4.5 weeks. He goes back after next week though.
Vaguely remember Hilary/Just Wondering. Does that person still post?
My IL's are tripping out over this cough. If it really is pertussis I'll never hear the end of it, they'll be sure that this never would've happened if we vaccinated the older kids.
back at ya'
and, thank you
Aww, mama....hugs! I would keep up with the vit c in powder form that you have but if she turns blue or stops breathing again I would go the ER (even though that is scary too). I would nurse nurse nurse as much as possible.
Here is some natural treatment suggestions for the older children:
-Nutrition is very important in treating pertussis. GIve your child frequent small, but nutrient dense, meals to help maintain strength fring the course of the illness.
-Encourage fluids, spring water, herbal tea, soups and diluted fruit juices. Immune boosting astragalus and vegetable soup is an excellent choice (I will type the recipe at the end)
-Avoid dairy, it thickens mucous.
-Eliminate saturated fats as much as you can. They are difficult for many to digest under normal circumstances, and are even harder when the body is under stress. They inhibit healing by contributing to a toxic internal environment.
-Vit C (powder) and bioflavonoids. One dose 3 times daily for at least 2-3 weeks.
-Zinc, one dose, 2x day with food up to 2 weeks
-Carotenoids help heal mucous membranes, one dose of carotene complex 2 times a day for 2-3 weeks
-Pertussis can affect the bowel so lactobaccilus is helpful. 2x daily
-licorice tea (warm) one dose, 3x daily for 2-3 days (not to be given to a child with high blood pressure)
-Marshmellow root soothing for throat. One dose, 3x daily for 3 days.
-Osha root is a mild cough suppressant. One dose, 2-3 times a day until better
-Slippery Elm Bark, soothing lozenge or tea. One dose, 3x day for up to 4 days.
-During early stages of pertussis give aconite 30c every 2 hours for the first 6 hours
-Antimonium tartaricum is for a child with moist rattling cough is breathless and pale. One dose 12x or 6c, 3 times a day. Do not use this if there is a fever.
-Bella Donna is the child has a fever, one dose 30x or 9c, 3 times a day for the first 24 hours.
-Drosera is for the child with a cough that is dry and wheezy. 12x or 6c, 3x day up to 4 days.
-Spongia is good for a child with a crouplike cough that complains of chest pain. 12x or 6c, 3 xdaily for up to 3 days.
Pericardium 6 helps to relax the chest. (This spot is below the wrist about 2-3 inches on the palm side of the hand/arm)
If you decide to go the dr most likely antibiotics will be prescribed. Symptoms can still last for several weeks. An infant may be given respiratory support with a mechincal ventilator. Suctioning of excess mucous. Cough medicines are of little value and not reccomended.
Recipe for immune boosting Astragalus and Vegetable Soup:
1 astragalus root strip
1 burdock root
10 cups water
1/2 teas thyme
1/2 teas sage
6 cups of veggies, cut into bite size (broccoli, cauliflower, carrots, celery, green peppers, parsley, potatoes, squash, zucchini, string beans)
1 cup barley
-In a stainless steel pot, simmer the astragalus and burdock root in the water with the thyme and sage for 20-30 mins. Strain out herbs and use the resulting tea as broth for the soup.
-Add veggies and barley to the broth and cook. Allow to slow simmer for an hour.
-Serve warm. Makes 6 servings. (A trick to hide the veggies is to blend it in the blender so there are no visable veggie "chunks!")
Okay, I just looked up doseages on herbs/supplements for 0-6 months and according to this book "Smart Medicine for a Healthier Child" by Janet Zand, young infants can be given supplements in smaller doseages. For a newborn it says that one dose (what I typed out above is from this book and when it says a "dose" this is what it means) equals 3 drops of tincture diluted in 1/4 cup of breastmilk or water.
This is good to know too:
A nursing mother can take a full adult doseage of the appropriate herbal treatment and the herbs will be transmitted to the baby via breastmilk, filtered and diluted to the proper strength.
Hope that helps!
Thanks Desiree. She is nursing like a champ. She hasn't gained any weight, but she hasn't lost any either. Birth weight was 8lbs 5oz, weight now is 8 lbs, 11oz which she's held steady for a week.
The vitamin C powder mixed with the breastmilk sends her into a paroxysm. I'm afraid to give it to her again.
I am Just Wondering. No, I don't still post, but someone e-mailed me and asked me to come here.
In terms of your one month old, she would have got it right at birth. Yes, things will be escalating hugely, and part of that is YOU.
You need to get onto high doses of vitamin C, Vitamin A and a mineral formula yourself, in order to get it to her in the best form possible. Remember the rule of thumb is that she will get roughly ONE -EIGHTH of what you take PROVIDING your body isn't in huge need, and taking it all yourself first.
So being 9 lbs she will need 1.5 grams over a 24 hour period. To give her an eighth, you would need 12 grams a day yourself, but that is too hit and miss for me.
The reason she will be having apneas is that the rate of pertussis toxin has built up to the point where its starting to affect the breathing centres...
Vitamin C can reduce this, and done properly, you should be able to get the toxin levels down in 8 hours maximum.
The type of Vitamin C we use is SODIUM ASCORBATE. Don't use any other sort. If you use CALCIUM ASCORBATE , or ascorbic acid, it tastes vile, and were I your baby, I'd lodge complaints in triplicate.
No, don't stick to the ascorbic acid powder. It is far too acid for a baby. She will also get a very red raw bottom if you use that.... If you must use it, then put the same amount of bicarbonate of soda with it, because that will buffer the acid, and at the same time, add the sodium ion the ascorbate needs in order to split the ascorbate. But it will still taste vile. Just a different vile.
So I wouldn't do it.
She's too small to cope with ascorbic acid.
Go and get sodium ascorbate.
Mix the full days 1.5 grams (heaped quarter teaspoon) up in a couple of ounces of breastmilk in one go. Then give it to her, ONE DROP at a time, as often as you think about it. Carry it around with you if necessary. Maybe a drop a second, --- make it your day's activity. And don't put it on the tongue. Put it under the tongue, or inside the cheek.
As you build up your own doses, you will be able to reduce what you give her, but right now, she needs a huge loading dose and only you can figure out the best way to do that. I know what I'd do...
Set yourself up with music, and or a book, you and the baby on a rocking chair, and delegate the rest of the family to your husband over this weekend. Oh, and he has to feed you too....
Get the sodium ascorbate, and spend the weekend with that as your primary job.
But the main thing is YOU...
As I said, 1,000 mgs a day, is not enough for YOU to be taking. A normal, healthy person with four children, uses far more than that a day without any illnesses to cope with.
Go by diarrhoea. If you are getting gas and slight stomach cramps you are just over optimum dose. If you have diarrhoea, well, you are way over. Even if you probably could do with a clean out. But go to diarrhoea first, then peg the dose back. So for you, you need three level teaspoons. I'd do 3/4 a tsp at breakfast, 3/4 at lunch, 3/4 just before tea, and 3/4 before bed.
Re Desiree's advice.
Food for the other children. Give small amounts, and wait a while. The child may vomit it up. THEN give a full meal. Once a child vomits, the next meal if eaten straight away, will stay down.
In terms of lactobaccilus, its not that helpful on its own. A better option is a full spectrum probiotic.
Regarding homeopathics, though that's a start, its not necessarily the ones you need. Often a remedy won't hold, so give a dose of suphur, and try again. If it doesn't hold then, you need to consider that its the wrong one. The last huge outbreak we had here, many years ago, Mephitis and Moschus were the correct remedies.
Oh and the In-laws?
Tell them that a bottle in front of them is better than a frontal lobotomy, and that if they don't get off your case, you will consider which of the two options you might prescribe for them.
You can PM me, if you feel the need.
WOW Fantastic post very informative. I thnk you for the time you put in this i will be saving this one for future refrence.
To the mom of baby:
My dd had Pertussis at 6 mo I know alot different then your little one. I dosed her with Vit c till is spuued out of her . I seen a remarkable difference in her in 24 hours of giving the high dosages.
Best of luck praying speedy recovery to your family
Just checking in to see how your baby is doing and how your appoinment went.
Hope you are getting some rest
I haven't had time to read all the posts, but did anyone mention PULSATILLA?
It is supposed to be given to children who have whooping cough.
Here's a link
And I don't know whether you can just buy it or whether it has to be described by a D.O.?
Well, we ended up at the ER, admitted, tested, antibiotics, oxygen. My doctor is a dumb ass. He could've caught this the first week of her life in my almost 6 year old son. He was at her birth, no wonder she caught it right away.
IMO we were too late for the vitamin C. She was coughing & turning blue way too often. It was too scarey. I should've looked for more information when ds exhibited the cough, but my Dr., who has always claimed to know pertussis & be so comfortable with treating it, was sure this wasn't pertussis.
dd2's PCR came back positive. The other kids were swabbed yesterday & we don't have the results back yet. Dd1 has been taking the ascorbic acid & its awful. I think I'll get the sodium ascorbate. We've all been given scripts for zythromax, so I'm off to fill those & get acidopholus. It's been a long week since I posted last.
Momtezuma Tuatara ~ I'll be copying all of this & saving it for other friends that go through this in the future. I wish I'd known all of this.
Makes me wonder what else I should know about other illnesses. This part of parenting is so hard.
So sorry to hear about your dr. what a bummer.
The SA has a salty taste to it, for my girls I hide it in lemon aid.Dd # 1 doesnt care for it but she will drink it down. Dd #2 requests I put SA in hers and I can get a gram down her in one sippy cup
As for me I just dump a gram or 2 in a glass of water stir and drink.
I dont know if you already have a place to but SA but Bronson Laboratories had the best price last time I went looking. I bought 2.2 lbs ( item # 50B) :LOL
How is your dd doing now?
I have to agree with you though I have never been there when you said this part of parenting is hard. I keep wondering if I will have the knowledge and resources to deal with whatever will come our way.
I've taken babies with seizures and what looked like reflux as a result, and turned them around in 10 hours.
In 18 years, I've never had a failure with a mother who really wants an answer, and who does exactly as advised..
I cannot understand why you would think it is too late. What experience have you had of this in the past?
And what are you going to do, when you find that Zithromax (Azithromycin) doesn't work? It never has, and never will, and neither does Erythromycin to which it is related... which is the drug normally prescribed for pertussis, not Zithromax...
Have you looked up the side effects for Zithromax?
They "say" that its generally well tolerated, but most studies were done in coherent (you would think) adults who could verbalise how they felt.
The side effects rates are higher than other comparable antibiotics. And be aware that Zithromax is way viler tasting than sodium ascorbate ever will be. And leaves a ghastly metallic taste in the mouth.
Here is some of what you need to know about this drug. Bear in mind, this is from the drug promoters website:
funny how they don't list the other ones here....
Be aware that this drug is very hard on the liver as well.
Not that this may be relevant, since you might have snow right now, but think about this:
Other side effects sites, are:
For yourself and your baby. Do not assume that Zithromax will frix everything, and at the same time, assume its too late for Vitamin C to work.
I've been there, done that, personally, not just with my own children, but also with eons of friend's children and grand children as well.
But its your choice. I can say no more than this.
MT, in Levy's book most of the vitamin C mentioned in the studies he compiled was given by IV or injection. The Dr that got you going on C did he ever mention giving C that way?
I would be interested in giving C that way should the need ever arise because of the vast amounts that can be gotten into the body in a short period of time.
What are your thoughts?
Yes I will say more.
Lets have a look at how this drug works:
Now, lets have a look at what the pertussis bacteria does.
It adheres to receptors on the outside of cells at the base of the cilia in the bronchials, and then switches on a toxin, which is responsible for cutting off the cilia in the bronchials.
As I said above, whooping cough starts looking like a mild cold, and its only after a month into the course of the disease, that people connect the dots, and make the connection.
By that time, the damage is done.
Why is that? This is why.
What happens is that its the cilia that sweeps mucus up, around and out of the lungs all the time. This is a normal process, and happens all the time, whether we are disease free or not. It has to happen. If it did not, then the mucus would become static, and be infiltrated with all sorts of bacteria and the like and we would be overwhelmed with infection.
So every day, as you walk around, all the mucus in your lungs is circulated out of the lungs, and new mucus secreted into the lungs, and the bacteria in that mucus is dealt with by the inate immune system, and some passes into your gut where it is dealt with by stomach acid and other immunological "guardians" so to speak.
Your daughter is coughing like mad, because over the last three weeks, the bacteria has gradually cut off all those cilia, so the mucus which is normally swept up, is now pooling in ever larger amounts at the bottom of the bronchials. So once it gets to a critical mass, which in babies is usually about every hour, when it builds up to a glob down there... Her body suddenly says:
This has to be got out of here, or I will drown in mucus.
The only way to get it out is to cough it out.
These hairs will take about six month to grow back again. So her coughing is not going to stop, just like that.
The damage that the pertussis bacteria does by cutting off the cilia, has already been done.
No amount of antibiotics will fix that now. Also, because the bacteria of whooping cough is not IN the body, but is IN the mucus, antibiotics are not very effective in stopping the whooping cough bacteria multiplying, because the bacteria isn't intracellular.
So you give this antibiotic into her mouth, and it has to travel through her stomach, and think what it will destroy on its way. the warnings above, should give you some idea. Then it has to go through her body, through her lungs, killing all sorts of stuff along that path too, and somehow enough has to be secreted out of the bronchials into the mucus, there, supposedly to stop the bacteria multiplying?
I've nothing against you giving it a go. Who am I to say you shouldn't. This is just my instinct screaming out here, now....
So, you say. Why is she turning blue?
She is turning blue because of all the coughing she is doing to stop herself drowning. that takes a hell of a lot of effort, and you can reduce that, by knowing how to hold her, and how to reduce the stress on her muscles.
I hope the person who PM'd you, also sent you the collection of posts I sent to her.
Amongst that was this:
She is also coughing because of the levels of pertussis toxin in the mucus, and in her body. The toxins can be neutralised by Vitamin C. In fact, its the only thing known to neutralise the pertussis toxins. That most doctors don't know that, is testimony to their own ignorance, not the fact that the information isn't out there.
Dr Thomas Levy has written a book about the usees of vitamin C in infectious diseases and Toxin-mediated diseases. Look his name up on Amazon.com. I'm sure you'll find the book.
There is a huge three volume text book on the subject, which I have, written by Professor Clemetson, but you know what? I, and one doctor, have the only two sets that reside in this tiny country I live in. Most other doctors don't even know that the medical publishing company CRC press every printed these texts, let alone what they say.
anyway, most of this, and more besides, was in the information I sent to her, and I think she PM'd it to me.
But please, think it over. Like I said, its your choice.
Yes he does. But the problem is that most doctors don't even belief in anything above 60mg vitamin C a day, let alone that vitamin C can be used to good effect in higher doses.
so to get anyone to do that, is very hard.
The other interesting thing is in working with Dr Archie Kalokerinos, who also has written three books now, all of which deal in some way with vitamin C, he says that in his clinical practice, he has noticed that Vitamin C potentiates antibiotics. He only uses 2/3rds the normal dose of antibiotics.
The only diseases that I would consider would need that sort of intervention are haemorrhagic meningitis, (which can be of any variant. The minute you see skin petechia, you know huge amounts of vitamin C are called for... ) But even then, I wouldn't be waiting to find someone capable or willing to administer it through the drip. I'd be getting it in hand over fist orally, because time is of the essence.
The other diseases would be Ebola and Haemorrhagic Smallpox in the event of some terrorist outbreak. Given that Alibek is convinced that should terrorists use smallpox, it would be an Ebola/smallpox/camel pox, or some deviant like combination.
(In which case, of course, the proposed USA plan to smallpox vaccinate the country would only be of use in order to temporarily quell public paranoia. Until, that is, it became obvious that the vaccine was unmatched to the new variant.)
But in day to day life, most common infections, including Pertussis, should never get to the point where you would need to consider intravenous injections, providing that you get enough every day.
In talking to the nutritional doctors today, its incredible how common vitamin C deficiency is amongst supposedly normal people. Even more frightening are basic mineral deficiencies like magnesium and zinc. People think that because they are walking around talking they are fine, when in fact, huge numbers out there have deficiencies they have no idea about.
and that applies to babies too.
to you and you family. Please let us know how your daughter is doing as you are able.
How where those peaches?
So toxins would no doubt require C by IV but if we are taking the right amount of C a day then most diseases shouldnt be a problem. Correct? I have someone lined up to do an IV should we need one. Though like you mentioned time is of essance.
Thats disturbing about vitamin deficiencies. I know for myself that my dd gets a funny patch of skin on her leg when she doesnt take her vitamins for over 2 weeks. Have no clue unfortunatley what she is deficient in though. I as a child had many earaches till my Mom discovered I needed A.
We have a friend that has ALS and I am trying to get him to get his dr (some type of a natural one) to do vit C by IV. Levy mentioned in his book about Vit C and ALS though it was a very short mention unfortunately.
Ok now that I have taken this thread off topic I am going to go take some C
Thanks to you MT all who know me are getting to know the virtues of C :LOL
Okay, don't have a lot of time here & haven't yet fully read your reply MT. I am mega dosing my ds, dd1 & myself. I started taking a lot of vitamin C Friday (the day we were admitted to the ER) and was taking 12000 to 15000mg the entire time we were in the hospital. I have no doubt that that is why we are home now. The cough wouldn't have improved otherwise Lila would've ended up in the NICU. I have noticed how much it helps & we will continue to dose in this manner until we're all better.
I took dd2 to the ER b/c a) I did not have a full understanding of the vitamin C therapy b) I felt time was of the essence and I didn't have enough information at the time to feel comfortable treating at home. I would really be stupid to keep her home based on the recommendation of some posts I read on a bb. If she had died, how could I ever justify that to myself. Yes, now that I have more information I know I can manage this myself. Had I been prepared I could've handled it from the get go. But you know what? I still haven't been able to find sodium ascorbate from any local source. I am continueing to mega dose myself instead. I can handle drinking the water mixed with ascorbic acid.
I just printed out your posts so that I can read them more thoroughly & post a comprehensive reply.
Oh and if my doctor had picked this up in my 6 year old before the baby ever presented any symptoms it would TOTALLY have made a difference!!! DUH! I could've researched this & found all of this information & been ready & prepared to treat my dd's.
Thanks so much for checking in! I'm sure you're quite busy, but if you are able, please let us know how your Dd (and your two older kids, too of course!) is doing! I'm so glad to hear she's home from the hospital!! That is frustrating that the Dr. didn't pick up on it!! s
Well, thank god for the vitamin C & the excellent advice I received from MT & others. I haven't been able to find sodium ascorbate locally, but I did find a place that will order it for me, I'm going to call back & place an order today. Thomas J. & Claire are taking vitamin C in mega doses of 8-10 500mg chewable tablets per day. Luckily, they love it! I am taking 1000mg pills & drinking the sour ascorbic acid. Luckily I have a palate for sour, I love sour candy & drink lemon water sometimes.
After getting home from the hospital I slacked a bit on my C intake & within 12 hours I noticed Lila getting worse. Pumped those levels back up & she's managing better. Talk about proof!
Thanks for all the prayers, well wishes & advice!!! Your help means the world to my family.
Bronson labs is online. http://www.bronsonvitamins.com/index.../search/result
Oh, I'm so happy you're all continuing to do better!!!! That's so amazing about vitamin C. It's frustrating that it's not used in the mainstream for other little babies (or anyone!) who gets pertussis.
I was on Bronssons looking for the sodium ascorbate and couldnt find it. I usually buy mine from Vitago but was interested in other brands as well is one better over hte other?
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