Has there been a study of SIDS amongst non-vaxed babies? - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 25 Old 10-10-2005, 01:56 PM - Thread Starter
 
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The AAp is now frowning on co-sleeping in the name of preventing SIDS (which I know is bollocks) so I was curious...
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#2 of 25 Old 10-10-2005, 05:59 PM
 
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i doubt they have, or ever will. Becaue we all know what it would show, and then they would have nothing to cover their largely exposed rear-ends.

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#3 of 25 Old 10-10-2005, 06:16 PM
 
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Where would you get the sample from?
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#4 of 25 Old 10-10-2005, 07:30 PM
 
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If you consider that most SIDS deaths occur during the age range when 3 shots of DTP are given, you would expect DTP shots to precede a fair number of SIDS deaths simply by chance. In fact, when a number of well-controlled studies were conducted during the 1980's, the investigators found, nearly unanimously, that the number of SIDS deaths temporally associated with DTP vaccination was within the range expected to occur by chance. In other words, the SIDS deaths would have occurred even if no vaccinations had been given. In fact, in several of the studies children who had recently gotten a DTP shot were less likely to get SIDS. The Institute of Medicine reported that "all controlled studies that have compared immunized versus nonimmunized children have found either no association . . . or a decreased risk . . . of SIDS among immunized children" and concluded that "the evidence does not indicate a causal relation between [DTP] vaccine and SIDS."
http://www.cdc.gov/nip/publications/...aseshadalready

Obviously the cdc's website is pro-vax, but I would love to see something refuting what they are saying. If studies are being done/ were done, I'm sure the CDC's standards would be very high whether they would even consider the research reliable or reproducable (is that a word?).
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#5 of 25 Old 10-10-2005, 07:38 PM
 
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What is interesting about that webpage is that they only give one reference, which i listed below. The "anti-vaccine literature" as they call it, usually gives several credible sources. It would interesting to read that book though! At least it is a 2004 copyright.

Reference:
Vaccines, 4th Edition
By Stanley A. Plotkin, MD and Walter A. Orenstein, MD
Approx. 1696 pages, Copyright 2004
http://www.us.elsevierhealth.com/pro...sbn=0721696880
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#6 of 25 Old 10-10-2005, 07:44 PM
 
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Great question. :

I had heard on a thread here that Japan did delayed vaxes and had a lower SIDS rate.

Mama to 9 so far:Mother of Joey (20), Dominick (13), Abigail (11), Angelo (8), Mylee (6), Delainey (3), Colton (2) and Baby 8 and Baby 9 coming sometime in July 2013.   If evolution were true, mothers would have three arms!

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#7 of 25 Old 10-10-2005, 09:09 PM
 
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So much depends on the methodology of studies... unfortunately, it's too easy to design a study that gives you the answer you want, not necessarily what is true. To know for sure if you can really trust a researcher's conclusions, you would really need to look at the details of how it was done and the data itself. That, of course, is impossible to do for every study! That's why it would be best if research was as separated as possible from financial interests (then the odds of data being manipulated intentionally would go down). I think the best thing, assuming you're not going to look at the actual studies, is to know who's doing/funding the study (and their possible motivations).
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#8 of 25 Old 10-10-2005, 09:18 PM
 
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some of the discussions above are mentioned here...

http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/vaccine_sids.htm

Check out New Moon on my Astrology Site

http://tracyastrosalon.blogspot.com/

 

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#9 of 25 Old 10-11-2005, 12:15 AM
 
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Japan went from #17 in the world to #1 in the world for their infant mortality rate when they mandated no vaccines until age 2. Pretty impressive and enough to convince me...
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#10 of 25 Old 10-11-2005, 02:09 AM
 
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wow do you have a link or other source for that?
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#11 of 25 Old 10-11-2005, 07:58 AM
 
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#12 of 25 Old 10-11-2005, 10:47 AM
 
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I wish I had a source for you. Unfortunately, I dont right now.

Edited to say: I found it:

In 1975, when Japan raised the minimum age to recieve vaccines from 2 monthes to 2 yeas, crib death virtually disappeared as did meningitis, other infectious diseases and infantile seizures. Japan jumped from 17th in infant mortality to 1st. However, Japan was soon faced with a new crop of neurologically damaged two-year olds" Cherry JD, Brunell, PA, Golden GS, Karzon, DT et al. Report of the task force on pertussis and pertussis imunization - 1988. Pediatrics - Supplement: 939-984
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#13 of 25 Old 10-12-2005, 12:13 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nichole
It would interesting to read that book though!
It's humongous -- weighs about 50 pounds -- but a great source of info. There are chapters on vaccine theory, manufacturing and additives, as well as chapters on each disease (clinical presentation and epidemiology) and the vaxes that are supposed to prevent them. It's exhaustively (and exhaustingly) referenced, too -- each chapter contains hundreds of footnotes to published studies.

This thread links to abstracts of some of the sudies on SIDS and DTP vax.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hannahgrace
I wish I had a source for you. Unfortunately, I dont right now.

Edited to say: I found it:

In 1975, when Japan raised the minimum age to recieve vaccines from 2 monthes to 2 yeas, crib death virtually disappeared as did meningitis, other infectious diseases and infantile seizures. Japan jumped from 17th in infant mortality to 1st. However, Japan was soon faced with a new crop of neurologically damaged two-year olds" Cherry JD, Brunell, PA, Golden GS, Karzon, DT et al. Report of the task force on pertussis and pertussis imunization - 1988. Pediatrics - Supplement: 939-984
The "source" that hannahgrace has posted is a particularly striking example of how things can completely change meaning when you take them out of context. That section of the report she quotes was written to dissect exactly why the supposed link between delayed vaccination and reduced infant mortality is false. The quote provided is merely the one in which they begin to describe how the fallacy arises. James Cherry, the main author of the Task Force Report quoted by hannahgrace, is a staunch vax advocate, and recently wrote an editorial for Pediatrics that recommends pertussis vaccination for adults.

(hannahgrace: don't feel attacked by this. I'm not implying that you posted the quote with the intention of misleading anybody -- I assume it was taken out of context already, and you just posted what was there.)
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#14 of 25 Old 10-12-2005, 04:56 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hannahgrace
I wish I had a source for you. Unfortunately, I dont right now.

Edited to say: I found it:

In 1975, when Japan raised the minimum age to recieve vaccines from 2 monthes to 2 yeas, crib death virtually disappeared as did meningitis, other infectious diseases and infantile seizures. Japan jumped from 17th in infant mortality to 1st. However, Japan was soon faced with a new crop of neurologically damaged two-year olds" Cherry JD, Brunell, PA, Golden GS, Karzon, DT et al. Report of the task force on pertussis and pertussis imunization - 1988. Pediatrics - Supplement: 939-984

It took me a minute to understand the part in bold, but, WOW, what a statement. I'm soo disheartened that the people in power cant open their minds for a second to consider that something in the vax's might be causing a number of ailments. At this point, i know it will never change. Thank God, i know the truth.
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#15 of 25 Old 10-12-2005, 05:21 PM
 
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sorry guys! I got it out of a book that a dr. actually gave me on the issue (anti-vax one), but I havent read the entire report.......you can only read so much, sometimes
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#16 of 25 Old 10-12-2005, 05:23 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CallMeIshmael
That section of the report she quotes was written to dissect exactly why the supposed link between delayed vaccination and reduced infant mortality is false. The quote provided is merely the one in which they begin to describe how the fallacy arises.
Do you have more text of that paper? I tried searching and couldn't find the text. I have long wondered about this "japanese evidence" as it seems to get mentioned by lots of people, but their sources were always secondary, none had a source of a published paper by the researchers. I've been meaning to track it down at the library for years. I. Must. Make. Time.
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#17 of 25 Old 10-12-2005, 05:35 PM
 
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Don't have it in front of me -- sorry! If you click to the link that RedWine provided, though, it has a bit more -- and it explains the controversy too. Basically, Cherry asserts that the infant mortality data is coming from records of vaccine-injury claims. In other words, they reflect the number of legal claims asserting death by vaccine -- not the actual number of deaths. SIDS is by definition death in an infant under one year of age. When the age at which the DTP vax given was moved from 3 months to 2 years, there were no more claims of SIDS related to it, yet the actual number of SIDS cases increased according to autopsy records.

The other thing you could do is pull up some of Cherry's more recent papers via pubmed.com. From what I recall, some of them summarize the issue -- and because they're newer, you'll be able to pull up a full-text online copy if you have access.
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#18 of 25 Old 10-12-2005, 06:49 PM
 
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In 1975, when Japan raised the minimum age to recieve vaccines from 2 months to 2 years...Japan jumped from 17th in infant mortality to 1st.
I've also seen this statistic cited in other anti-vax writing as evidence that vaccines increase infant mortality.

I tried to track down the worldwide infant mortality rankings to verify it, but couldn't find them online. What I was able to find were the actual numbers. And there is no dramatic drop in overall infant mortality rates in the years when Japan had raised the vax age to 2, just a steady decline. When Japan lowered the age to 3 months again, there's the same steady decline. You can check it out for yourself here. Select table "010: Infant Mort Rates...", then key in "Japan" and "all available years".

Lies, damn lies, and statistics.
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#19 of 25 Old 10-12-2005, 07:42 PM
 
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This is why I shun over-reliance on epidemiology. It’s not an error in logic to think that vaccination is linked to SIDS but it would be a huge misunderstanding to assume that epidemiological studies can conclude that no such link exists. If even one vaccine-related infant death is ascribed to SIDS each year then vaccination is de facto responsible for an elevated rate of SIDS. And if epidemiological studies can not reveal that link to statistical significance that does not mean the association is therefore minuscule.

In a comparison between vaxed and non-vaxed populations, any conclusion pertaining to causality based on the absence of an observation (i.e. no difference in the SIDS rate) is unsubstantiated crap. Are there no other differences between the two populations? Here’s just one example - family income correlates with vaccine status: lower income families have statistically more under- an non-vaccinated children (the reasons are irrelevant). Infant mortality is also higher in lower income families for a multitude of reasons not related to vaccines. So when comparing vaxed and non-vaxed populations, a highly significant vaccine-SIDS causal association could be entirely invisible: a decreased SIDS rate in the unvaxed group is negated by an increased SIDS rate due to another cause. [In some cases you might even see an false positive association indicating the vaccine had a ‘protective’ effect.] It doesn’t mean the vaccine-SIDS link is not real, only that the study didn’t turn one up. You can’t (responsibly) go concluding that no such link exists just cuz you didn’t see one.

You can’t retrospectively account for all confounding factors with this issue. You’d have to locate and define every detail that exists between the vaxed and un-vaxed populations, and then those differences would need to be quantified in relation to a syndrome with multiple unknown causes. It’s never going to happen because it’s just plain impossible. The name of the syndrome itself indicates the uncertain nature of the phenomenon yet it’s to be believed that retrospective analysis of handicapped epidemiological data has ruled out vaccination as a significant contributing source.

I’m not saying that vaccination is or is not a significant factor in SIDS. All I’m saying is that over-reliance on crappy epidemiology isn’t going to establish the truth one way or the other. JMO
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#20 of 25 Old 10-12-2005, 08:33 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hannahgrace
I wish I had a source for you. Unfortunately, I dont right now.

Edited to say: I found it:

In 1975, when Japan raised the minimum age to recieve vaccines from 2 monthes to 2 yeas, crib death virtually disappeared as did meningitis, other infectious diseases and infantile seizures. Japan jumped from 17th in infant mortality to 1st. However, Japan was soon faced with a new crop of neurologically damaged two-year olds" Cherry JD, Brunell, PA, Golden GS, Karzon, DT et al. Report of the task force on pertussis and pertussis imunization - 1988. Pediatrics - Supplement: 939-984
Just to be precise, the above is quoting someone else's interpretation of what the article says. It isn't what the actual article says at all. I have it somewhere, but right now, I'm doing a liver flush, so am perched on the wc most of the day.

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#21 of 25 Old 10-12-2005, 09:46 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CallMeIshmael
Don't have it in front of me -- sorry! If you click to the link that RedWine provided, though, it has a bit more -- and it explains the controversy too. Basically, Cherry asserts that the infant mortality data is coming from records of vaccine-injury claims. In other words, they reflect the number of legal claims asserting death by vaccine -- not the actual number of deaths. SIDS is by definition death in an infant under one year of age. When the age at which the DTP vax given was moved from 3 months to 2 years, there were no more claims of SIDS related to it, yet the actual number of SIDS cases increased according to autopsy records.

The other thing you could do is pull up some of Cherry's more recent papers via pubmed.com. From what I recall, some of them summarize the issue -- and because they're newer, you'll be able to pull up a full-text online copy if you have access.
CallmeIshmael.

Why do you consider Cherry to be such a good source of information?

I have read just about everything he has written, and thrown most of it out.

Why? Because way back in his early writings (a few of which I've kept) the guy was quite happy to admit that the pertussis vaccine was not that hot, AND that the vaccine had little to do with the decline of deaths and even incidence.

Then, the vaccine companies bought him and a few of his colleagues out in the late 70's early 80's when the numbers of court cases got really high. They decided it made financial sense to align a few doctors with them, had the money to do it, and paid him and others huge sums under the table. For a long time he denied it, and then, in a court case was forced to admit it. And I have the page from that case in the late 80's where he admitted that he and other doctors were bankrolled by the vaccine manufacturers specifically to divvy out the cases and appear against the parents. They were also paid to attend seminars put on by the companies to instruct their lawyers in techniques and arguements to deny parents justice.

About the time that the companies started putting unrestricted funds (no strings attached) into UCLA (I think it was UCLA - will check sometime, and amend if I'm wrong...) for Cherry, he started to change his tune. The vaccine was the only thing that stopped pertussis, and pertussis vaccine encephalopathy was a myth.

In the early 90's, he was forced to disclose "vested interests" in a medical journal, but only did it once. Since that time, about the only really honest thing he has ever put his name to, is a study in which he said that all previous pertussis vaccine efficacy studies were flawed (over-estimated efficacy) because of observer bias.

In terms of anything else he says, as far as I am concerned he has permanently comprised his integrity, because he was bought out, and as a result of their influence on him, and for no other reason I can see, he changed his tune markedly.

Now, anyone who takes the time and the trouble to read everything he has written, and whose seen the court evidence, and the article where his hand was forced... or who really knows what went on couldn't possibly consider anything he wrote to be the ultimate paragon of all scientific accuracy.

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#22 of 25 Old 10-13-2005, 05:06 AM
 
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There is a APA/SIDS discussion on the News and Current Events forum if anyone is interested.

I did share on there that all SIDS cases are initially investigated as homocides and was told that is a load of bull, however having lived through it, as a sibling of a SIDS victim, I know that it is true.

The instructor of my First Aid Class at the Red Cross last summer told the class this.

You may not see handcuffs or be read your rights, but the paperwork and internal machinations will tell all.

"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."
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#23 of 25 Old 10-13-2005, 09:31 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara
CallmeIshmael.

Why do you consider Cherry to be such a good source of information?
Not sure what you're asking. I was merely pointing out to Sohj how to track down the gist of the task force report, since it's virtually impossible to find with online resources. I've done no more than skim some of his writing in an attempt to provide context for that "quote." I have no opinions about him one way or the other.

I did note the "Conflict of Interest" disclaimer in his recent Pediatrics editorial.
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#24 of 25 Old 10-13-2005, 09:35 AM
 
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Originally Posted by applejuice
I did share on there that all SIDS cases are initially investigated as homocides and was told that is a load of bull, however having lived through it, as a sibling of a SIDS victim, I know that it is true.
Absolutely true -- learned this from the pathologists who actually do the autopsies.
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#25 of 25 Old 10-13-2005, 10:52 AM
 
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Originally Posted by applejuice
I did share on there that all SIDS cases are initially investigated as homocides and was told that is a load of bull, however having lived through it, as a sibling of a SIDS victim, I know that it is true.
2 (?) years ago, a doctor in England who had been giving evidence in Family Court was shown to have made up his interpretation of Munchausen By Proxy as the "cause" of crib death. Several heartbroken mothers were locked up. MT probably knows the idiot's name off the top of her head...I'm blanking. A friend of mine who is a barrister was all too familiar with the guy.

MT, hope your cleanse is going well.
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