Tetanus? - Page 2 - Mothering Forums
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Vaccinations > Tetanus?
littlelentils's Avatar littlelentils 08:29 PM 01-10-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by attachedmamaof3 View Post
Not only is tetanus incredibly rare (contraction that is, not existance) but the tetanus vaccine hasn't even been tested for efficacy.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pin...ds/tetanus.pdf



You tell me. With all the claims made regarding vaccines...they can't even say this works "for sure"? It's never even been studied?!?! But they want to claim credit for low tetanus incidence. It's a joke. You're asking for something that can't POSSIBLY be qualified. Even the people SELLING the vax can't say it works!

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5203a1.htm



Sooo...unless you/your child are over 60, diabetic and an injection-drug addict, you're not a high-risk.

ok, got it! thanks.

attachedmamaof3's Avatar attachedmamaof3 08:38 PM 01-10-2008
Yah, it's hard to explain without the links!!

Once you read those it kind of clicks.

OH, so they don't know if it works, but they claim it does because tetanus is so rare. Maybe the vax doesn't work at all and tetanus is just rare! There's nothing that says otherwise, because they haven't looked. (which IMO is very, very telling)

So, I could say (for example):

A: If you want to stop a leak in your roof, when you're in your house and think it's going to rain, just point your finger in the air and say "NO!" It works, I'm telling you!

B: How do you know it works? Have you tested it anywhere? Have you tried other things? Tell me more!

A: No, I haven't tested it, but I know it works because I don't get rained on.

To me, the tetanus shot is just as ridiculous.
krizzanne's Avatar krizzanne 01:00 PM 01-11-2008
I would like to add to this discussion, I am glad it was brought out from the dusty shelves!

Please respond to any of my statements, which are my opinions about info I have read (meaning not necessarily fact).

To me, discussing mortality/morbidity from tetanus doesn't matter - it is a horrible illness that I don't want my child to get.

Although the vaccine was never studied, it seems clear to me, that the vaccine does work for most of the population: Population = vaxed status > non-vaxed status / cases in non-vaxed > vaxed.
Added to that there is (some) evidence that the illness is milder in people who have been vaxed.

This short, interesting report: http://pediatrics.aappublications.or.../full/109/1/e2
In an 8 year period, 13 cases of tetanus in AGEs 3-15 years old; 8 from pedal puncture wound, 3 from other puncture, 2 from blunt trauma.
Only 2 had been fully vaccinated (the others were not vaccinated).
I would be kicking myself in the butt if one of them were my kids... Foot injuries tend to bleed a lot on their own...

I find the MT quote above stating that repeated vaccinations may have the effect of tolerance very interesting.

Planta/Plummeting, I love the botulism spore comparison, but I still can't put it into perspective with the majority of the population being vaccinated. (again, I don't care about morbidity). AND the fact that botulism doesn't enter through a wound - it is ingested - and has to be ingested in the state that it is already toxic (unoxigenated food source). Tetanus isn't a threat to us if we ingest it.

I would love to look at a country that does not vaccinate children against tetanus' rates (It wouldn't matter to me if they were a barefoot 3rd world country - my kids are barefoot and getting cuts in the dirt on their feet all the time! well, summertime). DOes one exist?

What is another method of prevention besides the vaccination?

My current 'recommendation' for tetanus vaccination is maybe around 6 years old to get 2-3 doses of INDIVIDUAL tetanus vaccination. I just wish I could prove to myself that until they get those vax's, they will be ok. But for me the risk of a multisubstance vaccination on an immature immune system is not worth the risk.

Oh yes, I also believe in Vit c to bowel tolerance to treat it.
runes's Avatar runes 01:38 PM 01-11-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by krizzanne View Post

This short, interesting report: http://pediatrics.aappublications.or.../full/109/1/e2
In an 8 year period, 13 cases of tetanus in AGEs 3-15 years old; 8 from pedal puncture wound, 3 from other puncture, 2 from blunt trauma.
Only 2 had been fully vaccinated (the others were not vaccinated).
I would be kicking myself in the butt if one of them were my kids... Foot injuries tend to bleed a lot on their own...
it looks like a bigger risk factor than not being vaccinated for tetanus is being caucasian, and being male is almost as big of a risk factor. 6 of the cases were in the amish community.

THIS is the "science" and "proof" that vaccines work?
attachedmamaof3's Avatar attachedmamaof3 01:57 PM 01-11-2008
Quote:
Our cases likely constitute an underestimate of the actual number of tetanus cases in children during the study period. Although tetanus is a reportable disease in all states, not all cases are recognized or reported.21 National surveillance for tetanus, which is a passive reporting system, depends on voluntary reporting from clinicians through state and local health departments. If all tetanus cases had been reported, then the proportion of cases in vaccine objectors might be different
I think this says it all. Even the "exemptors" get mild, unrecognizable tetanus. It's the few, the miniscule few, who show symptoms and become ill, whether they're vaxxed or not. (in this particular study, less than 3% of cases during an 8 yr period) Again, people at high-risk for tetanus are not children. (although the study you cite makes it look like just being a male or Amish is high risk!) Did you read the full text or just the abstract?

Disregard if you will, but a company who sells a product usually puts its selling points right out front. If the tetanus shot was the "miracle" it's purported to be, they'd have done study after study showing it's effectiveness.

To do no studies whatsoever even attempting to demonstrate its efficacy is lacksaidasical at best. To then sell it based on inference is negligent.
attachedmamaof3's Avatar attachedmamaof3 01:59 PM 01-11-2008
Oh, sorry kidspiration!! I typed my reply and walked away to deal with the kids...didn't even see you posted!!

Hahhaa you stated it much more succinctly than I did!
runes's Avatar runes 02:07 PM 01-11-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by attachedmamaof3 View Post
Oh, sorry kidspiration!! I typed my reply and walked away to deal with the kids...didn't even see you posted!!

Hahhaa you stated it much more succinctly than I did!


i was just about to post a : to yours.

especially agree with this part, which bears repeating.

Quote:
To do no studies whatsoever even attempting to demonstrate its efficacy is lacksaidasical at best. To then sell it based on inference is negligent.
in addition, as you pointed out, the study mentions that not all cases of tetanus are reported. i hadn't even thought of the possibility of "mild" or subclinical tetanus. i always thought of tetanus as being one of those black-and-white diseases, where you get it and you know it and it's bad. guess i was wrong. imagine that...learn something new every day.
krizzanne's Avatar krizzanne 10:11 PM 01-11-2008
Attachedmamof3, and Kidspiration, I appreciate your responses!

When I made the statement of population = vax>nonvax / non-vax tetanus cases> vax tetanus cases, I was more referring to this article and table: http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/320/7231/383 and http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/320/7231/383/Fu1

Just curious: are you both under the assumption that the tetanus vax does not work at all? or just saying they way it has been touted is unethical/wrong?

In the article you responded about: Don't you suspect that the subclinical cases of unreported tetanus are probably attributed to vaccinated individuals (so when they said the proportions would be different , they meant more in favor of vaccination). Even in this article, the 2 kids that were vaccinated had hospital stays of 2 and 3 days, where the unvaccinated had stays of 10,12,16,19 and upward days. (it looks like TIG made a big difference in that as well)

Also, the fact that they were mostly Amish, white, and male is just a reflection of the majority of at-risk non-vaccinated population. Most in the US are probably Amish, the males are the ones working outside, and Amish are generally white. I don't think the kids running around suburbia in their tennis shoes are at quite the same risk.
attachedmamaof3's Avatar attachedmamaof3 11:57 PM 01-11-2008
Quote:
the fact that they were mostly Amish, white, and male is just a reflection of the majority of at-risk non-vaccinated population. Most in the US are probably Amish, the males are the ones working outside, and Amish are generally white. I don't think the kids running around suburbia in their tennis shoes are at quite the same risk.
Actually, the CDC disagrees with you. I posted a link/synopsis earlier in this thread which clearly shows the at-risk population. White/Amish/Males are not on the list. I will quote myself:

Quote:
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5203a1.htm


Quote:
Quote:
During 1998--2000, an average of 43 cases of tetanus was reported annually; the average annual incidence was 0.16 cases/million population. The highest average annual incidence of reported tetanus was among persons aged >60 years (0.35 cases/million population), persons of Hispanic ethnicity (0.37 cases/million population), and older adults known to have diabetes (0.70 cases/million population). Fifteen percent of the cases were among injection-drug users. The case-fatality ratio was 18% among 113 patients with known outcome; 75% of the deaths were among patients aged >60 years.
Sooo...unless you/your child are over 60, diabetic and an injection-drug addict, you're not a high-risk.
Quote:
Just curious: are you both under the assumption that the tetanus vax does not work at all? or just saying they way it has been touted is unethical/wrong
Both. I don't assume. The people selling the shot assume it works. I know for a fact it hasn't been proven; therefore I object to its use as well as the way people have been misled into believing the vax is necessary and works. I couldn't sell a radio on Ebay without stating whether or not it works!

Quote:
Don't you suspect that the subclinical cases of unreported tetanus are probably attributed to vaccinated individuals (so when they said the proportions would be different , they meant more in favor of vaccination).
No, I don't. I suspect that there are subclinical tetanus in both vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals. I also don't believe that more subclinical NON-vaxed individuals would necessarily support tetanus vaccination. Quite the opposite. People vax for tetanus out of fear. Subclinical tetanus doesn't inspire the same fear as lock-jaw scaremongering.

In fact, I've read this study before, but take it with a grain of salt. 13 children isn't enough to base anything on, IMO.
Jasmyn's Mum's Avatar Jasmyn's Mum 02:14 AM 01-12-2008
Wow. So cool to see this thread again. Tetanus was the hardest vax to let go of. I strarted this thread 3 years ago. I remember being unsure. 3 years later, I've never been so sure of anything. There is no way I would ever inject that stuff into my kid.
krizzanne's Avatar krizzanne 07:11 AM 01-12-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by attachedmamaof3 View Post
Actually, the CDC disagrees with you. I posted a link/synopsis earlier in this thread which clearly shows the at-risk population. White/Amish/Males are not on the list.
I also don't believe that more subclinical NON-vaxed individuals would necessarily support tetanus vaccination. Subclinical tetanus doesn't inspire the same fear as lock-jaw scaremongering.
In fact, I've read this study before, but take it with a grain of salt. 13 children isn't enough to base anything on, IMO.

The population described in the group by the cdc that you quoted (>60, hispanic, drug-users, diabetics) are a largely UNVACCINATED group. What does the probable unvaccinated CHILDREN's group look like (apart from the adults) - probably Amish, although that should be changing.

The tetanus vax has not been 'proven to work' but there is evidence that it does.

Subclinical cases due to vaccination is a benefit - because otherwise they may not be subclinical.

ITA, 13 children is not enough, it reflects that the tetanus vaccine is working, which is why I would like to know the REAL NUMBERs of children that would be affected in an unvaccinated population. Then I could be certain when I am explaining this to DH.
attachedmamaof3's Avatar attachedmamaof3 09:28 PM 01-12-2008
Quote:
The tetanus vax has not been 'proven to work' but there is evidence that it does.
Really, I'm interested in seeing that evidence! Maybe we can send it to the CDC so they can update their info?

Quote:
Subclinical cases due to vaccination is a benefit - because otherwise they may not be subclinical
References, please? I'm curious to see how they are able to prove there are no subclinical cases of tetanus in the unvaxxed...only the vaxxed.

Quote:
I would like to know the REAL NUMBERs of children that would be affected in an unvaccinated population.
Until I see published, peer-reviewed material showing me that the vaccine works, I consider them ALL to be unvaxxed for tetanus.
Dragonfly's Avatar Dragonfly 10:59 PM 01-12-2008
If people are showing through titre testing high levels of antibodies to tetanus after receiving the shots, then that's proof that some level of immunity has been established. I think there is actually an article linked in this thread that shows that people who get boosters are showing levels of antibodies that are much higher than they should be (so are over-vaccinated).

Also, here's an abstract talking about immunity levels in vaccinated vs. unvaccinated populations in Africa: http://www.ajtmh.org/cgi/content/abstract/56/5/576

I believe that the "the tetanus vaccine isn't necessary in our current environment of thorough wound care, etc." argument is a strong one. The "the tetanus vaccine isn't even effective" argument is a non-starter and doesn't do the anti-vaccination campaign (for lack of a better term) much good overall, IMO.

Anecdotally, my non-vaccinated 7-year-old son shows no immunity to tetanus.
grisandole's Avatar grisandole 11:14 PM 01-12-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by krizzanne View Post
I would like to add to this discussion, I am glad it was brought out from the dusty shelves!

Please respond to any of my statements, which are my opinions about info I have read (meaning not necessarily fact).

To me, discussing mortality/morbidity from tetanus doesn't matter - it is a horrible illness that I don't want my child to get.

Although the vaccine was never studied, it seems clear to me, that the vaccine does work for most of the population: Population = vaxed status > non-vaxed status / cases in non-vaxed > vaxed.
Added to that there is (some) evidence that the illness is milder in people who have been vaxed.

This short, interesting report: http://pediatrics.aappublications.or.../full/109/1/e2
In an 8 year period, 13 cases of tetanus in AGEs 3-15 years old; 8 from pedal puncture wound, 3 from other puncture, 2 from blunt trauma.
Only 2 had been fully vaccinated (the others were not vaccinated).
I would be kicking myself in the butt if one of them were my kids... Foot injuries tend to bleed a lot on their own...

I find the MT quote above stating that repeated vaccinations may have the effect of tolerance very interesting.

Planta/Plummeting, I love the botulism spore comparison, but I still can't put it into perspective with the majority of the population being vaccinated. (again, I don't care about morbidity). AND the fact that botulism doesn't enter through a wound - it is ingested - and has to be ingested in the state that it is already toxic (unoxigenated food source). Tetanus isn't a threat to us if we ingest it.

I would love to look at a country that does not vaccinate children against tetanus' rates (It wouldn't matter to me if they were a barefoot 3rd world country - my kids are barefoot and getting cuts in the dirt on their feet all the time! well, summertime). DOes one exist?

What is another method of prevention besides the vaccination?

My current 'recommendation' for tetanus vaccination is maybe around 6 years old to get 2-3 doses of INDIVIDUAL tetanus vaccination. I just wish I could prove to myself that until they get those vax's, they will be ok. But for me the risk of a multisubstance vaccination on an immature immune system is not worth the risk.

Oh yes, I also believe in Vit c to bowel tolerance to treat it.
Just wanted to point out that one can get botulism from a wound, though it is much more rare than food-born botulism. Wound botulism is contracted similar to tetnaus....deep puncture wound w/lack of oxygen...most common in IV drug users (botulism, not tetnaus).
Twwly's Avatar Twwly 02:36 AM 01-13-2008
We're not vaxing for Tetanus and we live on a farm. There's loads of manure present here. We'll be treating any wounds DS gets with peroxide.

We may have considered vaxing for Tetanus, but after learning that it's an anaerobic organism AND that the ol' Canadian gov has gotten rid of the solo Tet vax (they sure aren't subtle eh) we're confident in our decision to pass on this vaccine (as with all the rest of them).
krizzanne's Avatar krizzanne 11:28 PM 01-13-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonfly View Post
I believe that the "the tetanus vaccine isn't necessary in our current environment of thorough wound care, etc." argument is a strong one. The "the tetanus vaccine isn't even effective" argument is a non-starter and doesn't do the anti-vaccination campaign (for lack of a better term) much good overall, IMO.

Dragonfly, thank you for your post and the link, and I totally agree with the above statement.

Attachedmamaof3, I am on a quest now (for myself and to convince DH that our kids will be ok) to find true numbers of tetanus cases in unvaccinated children. Coincedentally I found this while looking for those numbers :
http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...ract/114/1/187

Unvaccinated children tended to be white, to have a mother who was married and had a college degree, to live in a household with an annual income exceeding $75 000, and to have parents who expressed concerns regarding the safety of vaccines and indicated that medical doctors have little influence over vaccination decisions for their children. Unvaccinated children were more likely to be male than female. bolding mine. It says more interesting things, too. AND it gives some numbers to work with (for me):
Annually, 17 000 children were unvaccinated
This seems to be just in the USA, and it is 2004. Could that number be used to figure out rate of tetanus? or is it a 'biased sample' or something like that.

Grisandole, I stand corrected! and how interesting, I am going to look up botulism at the same time. It may be a good comparison.
attachedmamaof3's Avatar attachedmamaof3 04:04 AM 01-14-2008
I'm not sure about it being biased...it looks like it was self-reported via telephone. But the study itself looks like it was an exercise in demographics for the purpose of figuring out how to market vaccines to the under/un-vaccinated. (Additionally, their stats are from 1995-2001 but they go waaaay back to 1987 to bring up a measles outbreak and 1979 to discuss the loaded polio outbreak...both among Amish communities)

I do think that it's telling that there were 17,000 completely unvaccinated- an estimate which they think is low(and something like 2 million undervaxxed) children running around IN ONE YEAR (2001)...but over an 8 yr span only 13 kids reported clinical tetanus.

IMO, that reinforces my opinion that regardless of vax status tetanus is just rare, period.
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