"Measles Outbreak Sickens 4,000 in Romania" - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 22 Old 12-05-2005, 03:04 PM - Thread Starter
 
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From the Associate Press.

"CONSTANTA, Romania - An outbreak of measles has infected more than 4,000 children in Romania, killing 10 of them, health officials said Monday.

The Health Ministry has launched an investigation into the death of two babies in the Black Sea port city of Constanta, where more than 1,000 children have contracted the disease this year.

"It's very serious because more than half the children are under the age of one," said Marius Enescu, who heads the local public health department in Constanta.

He said the two babies who died over the weekend also suffered from other serious health problems and their condition was worsened by the measles.

Health Minister Eugen Nicolaescu has ordered an acceleration of the immunization campaign and has disbanded the national Center for Disease Control for failing to coordinate vaccinations and prevent the spread of measles.

He has said the outbreak appeared because some children had been missed by immunization campaigns. Also, in 2005 the measles, mumps and rubella vaccination schedules were disrupted by a shortage of vaccine.

Measles vaccinations are mandatory in Romania for children at ages 1 and 7. The ministry has also ordered immunization for measles, mumps and rubella for infants over the age of seven months.

The opposition Social Democratic Party has accused the government of failing to react promptly after the first measles cases were detected in March."

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#2 of 22 Old 12-05-2005, 03:15 PM
 
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The infant mortality rate in Romania is 26.45 per 1,000 live births. In the United States, it is only 6.5 per 1,000 live births. For the most part, the people of Romania live in poverty. Therefore, this story is not at all surprising.

Health issues in Romania
Medical facilities

Medical care in Romania is not up to Western standards and basic medical supplies are limited, especially outside of major cities. Doctors and hospitals often expect immediate cash payment for health services.
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#3 of 22 Old 12-05-2005, 03:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ItTakesTwo
The Health Ministry has launched an investigation into the death of two babies in the Black Sea port city of Constanta, where more than 1,000 children have contracted the disease this year.
The locals in Constanta like to swim in the Black Sea, which (according to what I'm reading)should be renamed "The Sea of Filth."
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#4 of 22 Old 12-05-2005, 03:40 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ItTakesTwo
He said the two babies who died over the weekend also suffered from other serious health problems and their condition was worsened by the measles.
It wasn't the measles that killed those babies- it was serious health problems and a weakened immune system. It's likely that they would have died from some other infection if not for the measles outbreak.

Still, I don't feel qualified to say whether or not vaccination programs are appropriate in places such as Romania where there is rampant poverty, poor sanitation, and poor nutrition. I don't think any of those conditions apply in the USA.

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#5 of 22 Old 12-05-2005, 03:52 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Ruthla

... whether or not vaccination programs are appropriate in places such as Romania where there is rampant poverty, poor sanitation, and poor nutrition. I don't think any of those conditions apply in the USA.
Especially in area of the world where people live in poverty it would be criminal to further assault the immune system via injections of poisons. Those little bodies struggle enough just to survive.

The money would be much better used to improve living conditions.

Healthy children don't die of measles unless by doctor interference.
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#6 of 22 Old 12-05-2005, 03:55 PM
 
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He said the two babies who died over the weekend also suffered from other serious health problems and their condition was worsened by the measles.
Yep.

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The money would be much better used to improve living conditions.

Healthy children don't die of measles unless by doctor interference.
Yep.

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#7 of 22 Old 12-05-2005, 04:37 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Gitti
Especially in area of the world where people live in poverty it would be criminal to further assault the immune system via injections of poisons. Those little bodies struggle enough just to survive.

The money would be much better used to improve living conditions.

Healthy children don't die of measles unless by doctor interference.
But I presume part of the problem is that many of the children AREN'T healthy (because they're living in poverty with probably inadequate nutrition etc.). I think Ruthla is right, we just don't know enough to know if vaccination is helpful or not under these conditions.
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#8 of 22 Old 12-05-2005, 04:48 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mavery
But I presume part of the problem is that many of the children AREN'T healthy (because they're living in poverty with probably inadequate nutrition etc.).
Only if you are assuming that injecting mercury, aluminum, antifreeze, andtibiotics, etc. could make a devitalized body healthier.


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I think Ruthla is right, we just don't know enough to know if vaccination is helpful or not under these conditions.
Yes, we do know that those things are poisons even in very small amounts and can not possible be health giving.
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#9 of 22 Old 12-05-2005, 10:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Gitti
Only if you are assuming that injecting mercury, aluminum, antifreeze, andtibiotics, etc. could make a devitalized body healthier.

Yes, we do know that those things are poisons even in very small amounts and can not possible be health giving.
Sure, but you have to know what the relative risk is. If a vaccine reduces the chance of someone getting a disease which, in their particular health and environmental circumstances, might have very severe effects and even be fatal, the toxins MIGHT be worth it.

I'm by no means saying it's the case in this particular situation - just that any vaccine which reduces the chances of contracting a particular disease has both positive and negative effects. In many circumstances, perhaps most, I can accept that the negative outweighs the positive. But there may be cases in which it doesn't. In circumstances so different from our own it's hard for us to know (and hard for anyone, even with a lot of careful research and statistics, to figure out).
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#10 of 22 Old 12-05-2005, 10:29 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Ruthla
It wasn't the measles that killed those babies- it was serious health problems and a weakened immune system. It's likely that they would have died from some other infection if not for the measles outbreak.
I was thinking the same thing
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#11 of 22 Old 12-05-2005, 10:42 PM
 
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Not including the at least 500 or so in Constanta who were under one year and obviously not vaccinated, I'm very very curious to know how many of the other few thousand children were previously vaccinated.

I will assume "children" means persons under the age of 18.
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#12 of 22 Old 12-06-2005, 12:47 PM
 
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oh yes ....I agree..let's vax them. Let's add autism , adhd , allergies and autoimmune diseases to their already down trodden bodies.


Vax isn't the answer here. Better health and living conditions are.
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#13 of 22 Old 12-06-2005, 01:21 PM
 
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According to the article, 10 children out of 4,000 died and 2 of those 10 were already ill with something else.
So 8 "healthy" children out of 4,000 died from the measles.
How old were those children?
It said over half of the kids who got the measles were under the age of 1. That's under the age which the MMR is given (so they wouldn't have been "protected" anyway).

Not enough information here IMO.
Sounds like another attempt at being sensationalist to get the general public to panic and tout the benefits of holy pharma and the magic vaccinations.

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#14 of 22 Old 12-06-2005, 01:28 PM
 
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It said over half of the kids who got the measles were under the age of 1. That's under the age which the MMR is given (so they wouldn't have been "protected" anyway).
Although *I* agree with you...that's a good argument builder for sheeple who believe in herd immunity.
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#15 of 22 Old 12-06-2005, 01:55 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Jen123
Although *I* agree with you...that's a good argument builder for sheeple who believe in herd immunity.

Funny... dh were just having the "sheeple" discussion the other night about people who decide not to vax because they read all the "facts" on messge boards and take it as truth because their sisters in crunchiness "said so". NOT saying this about people who do all the research for themselves... I just had to snicker at the "sheeple" comment because as you call others that, some are calling you the same.
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#16 of 22 Old 12-06-2005, 03:29 PM
 
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Jo- I catch your drift, but the word "sheeple" as it stands in the current vernacular means "mainstream" person who does what all mainstream people do (i.e. vaxing).

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#17 of 22 Old 12-06-2005, 03:37 PM
 
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The first thing I wondered about the 10 that died was if they were in an orphanage drinking formula. There are tons of orphans in Romania. Just a thought........
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#18 of 22 Old 12-06-2005, 05:01 PM
 
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Originally Posted by craftykitty
Funny... dh were just having the "sheeple" discussion the other night about people who decide not to vax because they read all the "facts" on messge boards and take it as truth because their sisters in crunchiness "said so". NOT saying this about people who do all the research for themselves... I just had to snicker at the "sheeple" comment because as you call others that, some are calling you the same.
Calling who the same? Most of the women here know more about vaccines than their pediatricians do. And they didn't get it from message boards - unless you count links to peer reviewed studies as "'facts' on message boards". So if someone was calling Jen123 a "sheeple", they would definitely be wrong.

If you're saying that it's irresponsible to refuse vaccinations based on what you read on a message board, without reading anything else to aid in your decision, then I agree. If someone is going to refuse vaccinations, they should educate themselves on every disease they are refusing to vaccinate for and how to prevent complications. Not doing so would be irresponsible. I feel the same way about vaccinating, though. Because it's the "default" decision, people seem to think it's perfectly okay not to research vaccines. The think they shouldn't have to, because someone already did all that for them. Either that, or they don't want to because they don't want to learn anything they might not like to know. That is *just* as irresponsible as declining vaccinations without researching. Injecting something with ingredients you don't even know or understand with possible side effects you don't even know or understand to prevent diseases you don't even know or understand shouldn't be a "default" decision.
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#19 of 22 Old 12-06-2005, 05:16 PM
 
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Originally Posted by craftykitty
Funny... dh were just having the "sheeple" discussion the other night about people who decide not to vax because they read all the "facts" on messge boards and take it as truth because their sisters in crunchiness "said so". NOT saying this about people who do all the research for themselves... I just had to snicker at the "sheeple" comment because as you call others that, some are calling you the same.
Interesting perspective.
The fundamental difference, though, is that you're sheeple are largely a figment of your imagination.
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#20 of 22 Old 12-06-2005, 05:31 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Artist Mama
According to the article, 10 children out of 4,000 died and 2 of those 10 were already ill with something else.
So 8 "healthy" children out of 4,000 died from the measles.
How old were those children?
It said over half of the kids who got the measles were under the age of 1. That's under the age which the MMR is given (so they wouldn't have been "protected" anyway).

Not enough information here IMO.
Sounds like another attempt at being sensationalist to get the general public to panic and tout the benefits of holy pharma and the magic vaccinations.
You read my mind.

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#21 of 22 Old 12-06-2005, 05:37 PM
 
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Sheeple are those unconcerned persons who, in whatever context you choose, unquestioningly obey authority and mindlessly follow the majority wherever that may lead them. Antivaxers are not only an obvious minority but they are also constantly confronted with obstacles because of their disobedience. Anyone who calls them sheeple doesn't understand the meaning of the dig.
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#22 of 22 Old 12-06-2005, 05:45 PM
 
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Originally Posted by insider
Sheeple are those unconcerned persons who, in whatever context you choose, unquestioningly obey authority and mindlessly follow the majority wherever that may lead them. Antivaxers are not only an obvious minority but they are also constantly confronted with obstacles because of their disobedience. Anyone who calls them sheeple doesn't understand the meaning of the dig.

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