if reactions to vaxes means a healthy immune system... - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
#1 of 30 Old 12-06-2005, 02:20 PM - Thread Starter
 
bluets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Bloomington, IN
Posts: 3,152
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
I can't find it, but someone here stated (suggested?) that a child who reacts to a vaccination (fever, symptoms, etc) actually has a healthy immune system - in that the immune system is reacting to the foreign crap that has been injected.

What does it mean, then, if a child is vaxed but has no reactions? No fever, no other obvious symptoms (delayed or otherwise)...

Jennifer, Naturopath and mom

bluets is offline  
#2 of 30 Old 12-06-2005, 02:33 PM
 
craftykitty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 89
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Hmmm... that's a very good question. I would agree that a reaction (fever, etc.) to a vaccine would indicate the body was responding to the matter in the shot and creating antibodies to it. I guess it may be sort of like pregnancy - having early, heavy preggo symptoms usually indicates a good outcome because it shows high hCG levels, but not all healthy pregnancies are very symptomatic. I would assume that some healthy babies create more hCG than other healthy babies as I would guess that some effectively vaxed children may create more antibodies than other effectively vaxed children. Clear as mud? Or maybe, some bodies just react in a more sensitive manner while creating their antibodies.
craftykitty is offline  
#3 of 30 Old 12-06-2005, 05:36 PM
 
Momtezuma Tuatara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 8,091
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Oh yes! That's a great one. One mother I know sent me a letter from the Center for Adverse Reactions monitorring, which stated that though her child's reaction had been severe (encephalopathy, seizures, uriticaria, eyes crossing and resultant allergies) that in their opinion it meant that the immune system had reacted appropriately.

You can imagine what the mother said back to them s.

What kind of ridiculous warped logic is that?

Perhaps they should tell the world that vaccines only work well if you have serious life threatening reactions with on going sequelae.

“I want to sell drugs to everyone. I want to sell drugs to healthy people. I want drugs to sell like chewing gum.” former Merck CEO, Henry Gadsden

Momtezuma Tuatara is offline  
#4 of 30 Old 12-06-2005, 05:46 PM
 
craftykitty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 89
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara

What kind of ridiculous warped logic is that?

.

I was obviously NOT talking about life-threating reactions like anaphylaxis in my answer. What kind of logic is it that says that a slight reaction would indicate that the body is creating a defense to what has been presented to it? The kind of logic coming from someone who knows the physiology of the body. If you actually know how the body works, it's not so ridiculous.
craftykitty is offline  
#5 of 30 Old 12-06-2005, 05:47 PM
 
insider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 657
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I don't buy that reasoning. Death is a potential vaccine reaction - how does being dead make your immune system healthier? A reaction shows only that a person has been affected by a vaccine, it does not follow that the particular reaction is therefore beneficial to the recipient. IMO.
insider is offline  
#6 of 30 Old 12-06-2005, 05:50 PM
 
mamakay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: in la la land, or so they say...
Posts: 8,986
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by insider
I don't buy that reasoning. Death is a potential vaccine reaction - how does being dead make your immune system healthier? A reaction shows only that a person has been affected by a vaccine, it does not follow that the particular reaction is therefore beneficial to the recipient. IMO.
Well, dead people don't get sick. Ever. I'd say death prevents disease quite well, actually.
mamakay is offline  
#7 of 30 Old 12-06-2005, 05:55 PM
 
insider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 657
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by craftykitty
I was obviously NOT talking about life-threating reactions like anaphylaxis in my answer.
The life-threatening example is just the easiest way to point out the absurdity of the argument. Reactions that cause permanent neurological damage (but are not life-threatening) would be another counter example. You'll have to ammend your statement again to exclude all reactions that cause permanent sequelae.
insider is offline  
#8 of 30 Old 12-06-2005, 05:57 PM
 
insider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 657
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamakay
Well, dead people don't get sick. Ever. I'd say death prevents disease quite well, actually.
I was going to sarcastically mention that but I'm too much of a smartass as it is.
insider is offline  
#9 of 30 Old 12-06-2005, 06:00 PM
 
AngelBee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: New Brighton, MN
Posts: 20,388
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Mama to 9 so far:Mother of Joey (20), Dominick (13), Abigail (11), Angelo (8), Mylee (6), Delainey (3), Colton (2) and Baby 8 and Baby 9 coming sometime in July 2013.   If evolution were true, mothers would have three arms!

AngelBee is offline  
#10 of 30 Old 12-06-2005, 06:07 PM
 
Gitti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Ready to move on...
Posts: 14,790
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by craftykitty
Hmmm... that's a very good question. I would agree that a reaction (fever, etc.) to a vaccine would indicate the body was responding to the matter in the shot
Yes, I would think something in the body is reaction. Violently. Trying to rid itself of whatever invaded it. Trying to get back to a balanced self.


Quote:
and creating antibodies to it.
NO. It does not mean that at all.

It means the immune system is under attack.

Does it create antibodies? Maybe? Maybe to the half dead virus in case the child ever comes in contact with them again.

There is a good chance of that when the child gets the booster shots.

But it can not create antibodies to the natural pathogen.

Look how they say the flu virus mutates from year to year. And they know the flu shot does not protect in the next season. Yet a vaccine with a mangled existence it is supposed to protect against a natural germ?





(I personally doubt that there is any such thing as a virus that it makes us sick.)
Gitti is offline  
#11 of 30 Old 12-06-2005, 06:14 PM
 
Ruthla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 47,599
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
IMO, there's a huge difference between a child reacting to a vaccine with a mild fever and general malaise for a day or so, vs a child developing brain damage in reaction to a vaccine.

My DS has had mild fevers and general malaise for a day or two after receiving vaccines (as a preschooler, none were administered when he was a baby.)

Ruth, single mommy to Leah, 19, Hannah, 18, and Jack, 12
Ruthla is offline  
#12 of 30 Old 12-06-2005, 06:15 PM
 
AngelBee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: New Brighton, MN
Posts: 20,388
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gitti



(I personally doubt that there is any such thing as a virus that it makes us sick.)
What is it then?

Mama to 9 so far:Mother of Joey (20), Dominick (13), Abigail (11), Angelo (8), Mylee (6), Delainey (3), Colton (2) and Baby 8 and Baby 9 coming sometime in July 2013.   If evolution were true, mothers would have three arms!

AngelBee is offline  
#13 of 30 Old 12-06-2005, 06:24 PM
 
Gitti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Ready to move on...
Posts: 14,790
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
That is the question.

Fact: they have an electronic picture of some very low particles. They named it Virus.

Conjesture: that is what makes us sick.

The question still remains.

They do not understand the pathogenic meachanisms that causes disease. They do not know exactly how, why or what makes us sick.

There are many theories. But just because we have a picture of some particle, does not conclusively mean it makes us sick.


Look at this: http://freespace.virgin.net/ahcare.q...e/viruses.html


Quote:
Swine flu (viral infection) arose as a normal, non-lethal flu in the spring of 1918, but somehow, over the following months, it mutated into something more severe.

[b]In an attempt to devise a vaccine, medical authorities conducted experiments on volunteers at a military prison on Deer Island in Boston Harbour. The prisoners were promised pardon if they survived a battery of tests. These tests were rigorous to say the least.

First, the subjects were injected with infected lung tissue taken from the dead and then sprayed in the eyes, nose and mouth with infectious aerosols.

If they still failed to succumb, they had their throats swabbed with discharges taken from the sick and dying.

If all else failed, they were required to sit open-mouthed while a gravely ill victim was sat up slightly and made to cough into their faces.

The doctors chose sixty-two of the volunteers for the tests. None contracted the flu, not one.
Gitti is offline  
#14 of 30 Old 12-06-2005, 06:31 PM
 
amnesiac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: at the end of the longest line
Posts: 4,984
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Who are "they", what are "low particles" & where is this "picture"?
amnesiac is offline  
#15 of 30 Old 12-06-2005, 06:35 PM - Thread Starter
 
bluets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Bloomington, IN
Posts: 3,152
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
"Infections and inflamation are not signs of weaknesses but rather of a sign of a precise functioning immune system. " posted by Gitti in http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=377324 ("He's 9 mos old and I'm still undecided")

So let me modify my question.

Consider identical twins in the same household. One child battles infections (sinus congestion, earaches, flu, infected cuts, insert communicable disease name here) constantly while the other might get a runny nose once a year. Which child has the better functioning immune system? Since genetics and environment should be (largely) the same, what could be the cause if such a (unlikely?) scenario did occur?

Jennifer, Naturopath and mom

bluets is offline  
#16 of 30 Old 12-06-2005, 06:52 PM
 
amnesiac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: at the end of the longest line
Posts: 4,984
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Well I have twins but they're fraternal. One is rarely sick but runs high fevers when he is, he's the one who had Tetramune reaction & he has no allergy problems now (did as a baby). His twin had no vax reactions, is sick a little more frequently and doesn't run much fever and still has some allergy issues. I can't really say how much of it is something they were born with or even how much each of those is related because of the NICU interventions they underwent & the fact that I treated the first one with some "complementary" medicine as a baby & not the other.
amnesiac is offline  
#17 of 30 Old 12-06-2005, 07:00 PM
 
amnesiac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: at the end of the longest line
Posts: 4,984
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Oh, and that quote makes no kind of sense. Take chicken pox for example. Kid A is exposed, infected, immune system clears infection & develops immunity without Kid A ever having any symptoms. I say that's some great immune functioning. Kid B on the other hand is also exposed & infected but he ends up covered in pox, high fever & encephalitis. Not such great immune functioning. If you're seeing the signs of infection & inflammation then function could be better.
amnesiac is offline  
#18 of 30 Old 12-06-2005, 07:00 PM
 
Gitti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Ready to move on...
Posts: 14,790
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluets
What does it mean, then, if a child is vaxed but has no reactions? No fever, no other obvious symptoms (delayed or otherwise)...
That means his system is not fighting off the injection.
Gitti is offline  
#19 of 30 Old 12-06-2005, 07:01 PM
 
mamakay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: in la la land, or so they say...
Posts: 8,986
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
The kid that's sick all the time has something wrong with his immune system.
Yes...stuff like inflamation means you're body is fighting the good fight. If you're immune system never responded to anything you'd die. (Unless you were put in a bubble or something...but anyway...)
But an overwhelming majority of stuff our immune system deals with happens invisibly. A kid who's literally sick all the time has an immune system that is spending too much time in overdrive. All those germs make it too far too often. Things that are dealt with invisibly in a healthier child are visible infections in the sickly one.
Inflammation and fever are the proverbial "big guns".

At least, I think that's how it works.
mamakay is offline  
#20 of 30 Old 12-06-2005, 07:06 PM
 
mamakay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: in la la land, or so they say...
Posts: 8,986
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gitti
That means his system is not fighting off the injection.
Or maybe it's able to do it invisibly.
mamakay is offline  
#21 of 30 Old 12-06-2005, 07:07 PM
 
amnesiac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: at the end of the longest line
Posts: 4,984
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Right on Mamakay.
amnesiac is offline  
#22 of 30 Old 12-06-2005, 07:14 PM
 
Gitti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Ready to move on...
Posts: 14,790
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluets
Consider identical twins in the same household. One child battles infections (sinus congestion, earaches, flu, infected cuts, insert communicable disease name here) constantly while the other might get a runny nose once a year. Which child has the better functioning immune system? Since genetics and environment should be (largely) the same, what could be the cause if such a (unlikely?) scenario did occur?
I had written:

I am not saying that a child won't get an infection (childhood disease) but certainly it is not a dangerous situation to the child. There are some doctors who have come to the conclusion that it serves a purpose and creates a healthy adult life.

Infections and inflamation are not signs of weaknesses but rather of a sign of a precise functioning immune system.

By infections and inflamations I was talking about childhood diseases.

If a child that is constantly sickly, that is a different matter.
Gitti is offline  
#23 of 30 Old 12-06-2005, 07:19 PM
 
amnesiac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: at the end of the longest line
Posts: 4,984
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
And the more symptoms of a childhood illness you're seeing, the better the kid's immune system could be functioning. Kids getting colds & whatnot is a normal expected thing, but seeing symptoms doesn't mean everything is peachy.
amnesiac is offline  
#24 of 30 Old 12-06-2005, 07:20 PM
 
Sherra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 1,467
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Or maybe, some bodies just react in a more sensitive manner while creating their antibodies.
This is not true.

Vaccines do not necessarily create antibodies. There are plenty of people who get full boosters that do not ever register on their titers any antibodies. They even know this about pets and the rabies shot.

If you look up every single ingredient used to make the vaccine: aluminum, mercury, anti freeze (ethyl glycol), formaldahyde, the side effects of some of these are the same as what is in the papers for the side effect for the shots..hmm..I found that really interesting.

After reading what each and every chemical put into a vaccine and what it is known to DO to the body by just itself, it really didn't amaze me anymore on why my daughter had a seizure after her vaccines. It should have been a given that it would happen...and upon talking to other parents, I was suprised how common it was to have a seizure after a vaccine. Many parents stick their child in their own bed or room and miss seeing the seizure, thankfully I coslept with mine and saw it asap.
Sherra is offline  
#25 of 30 Old 12-06-2005, 09:12 PM
 
Gitti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Ready to move on...
Posts: 14,790
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
I don't buy that reasoning. Death is a potential vaccine reaction - how does being dead make your immune system healthier? A reaction shows only that a person has been affected by a vaccine, it does not follow that the particular reaction is therefore beneficial to the recipient. IMO.

In my original statement I said absolutely nothing about a REACTION. A reaction is something completely different. Nor was I at that point talking about any injection. I was talking about the natural disease.


My statement was completely misconstrued:
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluets
if reactions to vaxes means a healthy immune system...
Please don't do that.


Here is what I said:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=377324

So, what makes us sick? Extreme heat, extreme cold, drinking and bathing in polluted water, extreme psychological problems, living in war torn countries, suffering extreme abuse, or hunger, no chance of fresh air and sunshine, extremely poor nutrition.
Those are things that tax the whole body including our immune system.

I am not saying that a child won't get an infection (childhood disease) but certainly it is not a dangerous situation to the child. There are some doctors who have come to the conclusion that it serves a purpose and creates a healthy adult life.

Infections and inflamation are not signs of weaknesses but rather of a sign of a precise functioning immune system.
_________________________________________

Nor was I talking about a chronically sick child.
And yes, there is a huge difference between a child getting a little down and having a mild fever in the process of developing immunity versus a child getting deathly ill as was used as an example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mamakay
The kid that's sick all the time has something wrong with his immune system.
Yes...stuff like inflamation means you're body is fighting the good fight.
Excatly!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mamakay
But an overwhelming majority of stuff our immune system deals with happens invisibly. A kid who's literally sick all the time has an immune system that is spending too much time in overdrive. All those germs make it too far too often. Things that are dealt with invisibly in a healthier child are visible infections in the sickly one.
Inflammation and fever are the proverbial "big guns".
I agree! Most things probably happen invisibly. But when a child comes down with a fever it does not mean weakness. Some scientists believe we need fevers in order to become strong, healthy adults.

http://www.vaccinationdebate.com/web6.html

http://www.*********/a/west8.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by amnesiac
And the more symptoms of a childhood illness you're seeing, the better the kid's immune system could be functioning. Kids getting colds & whatnot is a normal expected thing, but seeing symptoms doesn't mean everything is peachy.
Nor does it necessarily mean the immune system is not working properly.

BTW - isn't AIDS the complete absence of immune reaction?
Gitti is offline  
#26 of 30 Old 12-06-2005, 10:24 PM
 
amnesiac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: at the end of the longest line
Posts: 4,984
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
If you're sick, then there is a weakness in your immune system. Something isn't working as well as it could be. Contrary to what you said, symptomatic infection IS a sign of weakness. On Earth anyhow.
amnesiac is offline  
#27 of 30 Old 12-06-2005, 10:50 PM
 
Gitti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Ready to move on...
Posts: 14,790
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by amnesiac
If you're sick, then there is a weakness in your immune system. Something isn't working as well as it could be. Contrary to what you said, symptomatic infection IS a sign of weakness. On Earth anyhow.

I guess it depends on how you look at it.

If something is attacking you and you are able to defend yourself....to me that is a sign of strength.
Gitti is offline  
#28 of 30 Old 12-06-2005, 10:55 PM
 
FrederickMama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: somewhere
Posts: 711
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

those were the words i was looking for
FrederickMama is offline  
#29 of 30 Old 12-06-2005, 10:58 PM
 
Ruthla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 47,599
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gitti
I guess it depends on how you look at it.

If something is attacking you and you are able to defend yourself....to me that is a sign of strength.
But if you were even stronger, you could have prevented the attack altogether, or demolished the enemy very quickly so that less time is spent in "attack" mode.

Ruth, single mommy to Leah, 19, Hannah, 18, and Jack, 12
Ruthla is offline  
#30 of 30 Old 12-06-2005, 11:05 PM
 
Gitti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Ready to move on...
Posts: 14,790
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruthla
But if you were even stronger, you could have prevented the attack altogether, or demolished the enemy very quickly so that less time is spent in "attack" mode.

Preventing attacks 100% may be impossible as humans.
But I do agree, the shorter the "attack" mode the smarter and stronger the immune system.
Gitti is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off