Infection, immunity ~ Nutrition. This is SO important. - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#1 of 44 Old 01-23-2006, 11:29 PM - Thread Starter
 
Momtezuma Tuatara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 8,091
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
For those of you with concerns about immunodeficiency, and the impact of nutrition on the immune system even for those already supposedly immunocompromised, look at this. I know I've told you I've proven it, but wouldn't you think in that wonderful land you live in, someone would be doing something about this? Why is it only happening in Russia?:

http://www.medlit.ru/medeng/imm/imm04e06371.htm

Quote:
Immunology №6 2004
Kurbanov G. A.

Parameters of the immune system and a differential approach to the treatment of mild local infection-inflammatory diseases in babies

Eighty-six babies with slight local inflammatory infection (SLII) were examined; they were shared between 4 groups depending on a premorbid background and a degree of deviations of individual immune parameters from the age norm. The parameters of the cell and humoral immunity as well as the absolute count of neutrophils and their functional activity (NBT-test) were examined in 20 control healthy babies. Metabolic immunostimulators (vitamins, quercetin, riboxin) were differentially prescribed. The dose of vitamins varied from single to triple daily physiological need of infant body. When vitamins were used protractedly, the sensitivity of erythrocyte membranes to vitamins A and E was determined in vitro during treatment to avoid hypervitaminosis. Provided there was no negative premorbid background in the patients of group 1, the daily intake of the triple daily physiological dose of the vitamin mixture 3 normalized their immune status. At the same time, if the history of pregnancy or delivery was compromised, additional quercetin was needed from the first weeks and months of babies’ life to normalize the immune parameters of the patients in group 2. When the premorbid background was more negatively pronounced in group 3, the immune development in some of the babies with SLII combined with respiratory viral infection, thymomegalia and dysbacteriosis it was found to be more advisable to use a combination of 3 immunostimulators with metabolic properties (vitamin complex 3, quercetin, riboxin). The antibiotic therapy was combined in group 3 with a single daily dose of vitamin complex 1. The clinical-immunological convalescence was registered in 65-87% of cases in group 3 and only in 38.4-43.8% of cases in group 4. The results prove it as feasible to analyze the individual parameters while evaluating the immune status in patients before and after treatment because the mean value (M ± m) for the whole group does not always carry the accurate information on the occurring changes in the immune status due to certain factors.
This is SO...SO... important.

Now, I don't want to do all the talking so some of you tell me what you think this means, and the implications, considering epigenetics, and the chicken and the egg syndrome...

“I want to sell drugs to everyone. I want to sell drugs to healthy people. I want drugs to sell like chewing gum.” former Merck CEO, Henry Gadsden

Momtezuma Tuatara is offline  
#2 of 44 Old 01-23-2006, 11:39 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,484
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
premorbid: Preceding the occurrence of disease.
http://www.answers.com/premorbid&r=67

So then what is negative premorbid background? Is that a double negative? Or does that mean something diff?

this quercetin?
Quote:
A yellow powdered crystalline compound, C15H10O7, synthesized or occurring as a glycoside in the rind and bark of numerous plants, and used medicinally to treat abnormal capillary fragility.
Same website
pumpkinsmama is offline  
#3 of 44 Old 01-24-2006, 12:19 AM - Thread Starter
 
Momtezuma Tuatara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 8,091
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
perhaps that's their translation of "underlying precondition"? Translating Russian into english is always fraught with problems.

“I want to sell drugs to everyone. I want to sell drugs to healthy people. I want drugs to sell like chewing gum.” former Merck CEO, Henry Gadsden

Momtezuma Tuatara is offline  
#4 of 44 Old 01-24-2006, 08:48 AM
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,484
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
he dose of vitamins varied from single to triple daily physiological need of infant body. When vitamins were used protractedly, the sensitivity of erythrocyte membranes to vitamins A and E was determined in vitro during treatment to avoid hypervitaminosis
Does this say that while still a fetus, the baby does not take in excessive vitamins? That regardless of how many vitamins are in the regular diet of the mother there is no chance of the fetus suffering an overdose?

Quote:
At the same time, if the history of pregnancy or delivery was compromised, additional quercetin was needed from the first weeks and months of babies’ life to normalize the immune parameters of the patients in group 2.
When the pregnancy or delivery had complications, more vitamins normalized the immune system of the babies?
pumpkinsmama is offline  
#5 of 44 Old 01-24-2006, 09:50 AM - Thread Starter
 
Momtezuma Tuatara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 8,091
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Not as I read it. To me the first bit means that when they had to use them over time during illness after the babies were born, they checked the membranes of red blood cells in the laboratory to make sure the babies weren't being given too much vitamin A.


The second bit says to me, that ON TOP OF the abnormalities observed in these babies, that IF the pregnancy or labour was "compromised" they would give extra quercetin ON TOP OF the vitamins in order to normalise the immune peramters of the babies.

Quercetin is pretty useful stuff.

“I want to sell drugs to everyone. I want to sell drugs to healthy people. I want drugs to sell like chewing gum.” former Merck CEO, Henry Gadsden

Momtezuma Tuatara is offline  
#6 of 44 Old 01-24-2006, 10:04 AM
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,484
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
TBH I am having a lot of trouble reading the post. When I do look up words I don't know, I get even more confused. :

I was being silly and mistook invitro (I'm not sure with what). But in vitro just means
Quote:
In the laboratory; literally, “in glass” (laboratory experiments are often carried out in glass containers). In vitro conditions are distinguished from conditions that actually apply in nature. (Compare in vivo.)
http://www.answers.com/topic/in-vitro?gwp=19
pumpkinsmama is offline  
#7 of 44 Old 01-24-2006, 02:47 PM
 
mammom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: oh!
Posts: 1,179
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara
IF the pregnancy or labour was "compromised" they would give extra quercetin ON TOP OF the vitamins in order to normalise the immune peramters of the babies.

Quercetin is pretty useful stuff.
When you say if the labor was compromised, do you mean actual difficulties like perhaps a c-section or breech, etc? Or do you mean interference with spinals, etc?

The reason I ask is that I had a 99% natural birth - while I was pushing I spiked a "fever" of 100 or 101 and the doctor freaked out and pushed an iv drip of antibiotics. I caved because the nurse said that if there was anything "wrong" with ds that they would take him to the NICU and load him up with antibiotics there. I figured he would get less of the poison through my blood than he would otherwise.

They tried to say he had a fever later - it was 99! I was so PO'ed. Then the doctor came in later and said "sorry you didn't have the birth you wanted." Like she couldn't let me "have" the natural birth I wanted. Well, it was mostly.

Anyway, that's not what this post is about. Sorry for the bit of rant!

I never gave him anything (vitamins, acidopholous, etc.) after he was born, but have always wondered what affect the antibiotics could have had on him - I don't think he got much since I wasn't on them for very long before he came out, but still, he got SOME. He's only had one good cold since he was born, so his immune system seems pretty strong.
mammom is offline  
#8 of 44 Old 01-24-2006, 10:07 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,484
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
bump. I'm hoping if this stays on page one, someone else will explain what they think and the lightbulb will flash in my head.
pumpkinsmama is offline  
#9 of 44 Old 01-24-2006, 10:40 PM
 
JaneS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,114
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara
Now, I don't want to do all the talking so some of you tell me what you think this means
It means I'm stupid!!!

And DS's ND knew something when she px'd quercetin for his eczema. Darned hard to give to a babe though, that stuff stains everything! Plus you have to give a lot b/c something like 5% of the dosage is actually absorbed or something. Doesn't really transfer thru BM for same reason I think.

What the heck is riboxin?

Quote:
Medical Dictionary Online
Riboxin
An inosine nucleotide containing a pyrophosphate group esterified to C5 of the sugar moiety.
Yeah. Just gonna go crawl in my immunocompromised hole here...

Is it a steriod?
JaneS is offline  
#10 of 44 Old 01-24-2006, 11:03 PM - Thread Starter
 
Momtezuma Tuatara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 8,091
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I have done so many labour supports now... I don't know what's wrong with these docs and nurses. Most women spike a temperature while pushing and some break into a sweat. What do they think "labour" is? Potato couch sitting or something?

Ask them what temperatures marathon runners get up to for goodnesss sake.

It sounds to me, like you were victim of the usual functional illiteracy...

My husband asked me this morning.

What is the definition of an expert?

I asked him, "Which definition do you want.

You can have several:

1) An expert is someone who has studied for long enough to say that they don't know what it is they should be saying.

2) An expert is someone who sweeps along in oblivion to the grand fallacy, while somehow managing to not encounter all the other smaller fallacies along the way....

Or

3) And Ex-spurt is someone who in the past, used to spurt out pearls of wisdom that the 5 yearly half life of medical knowledge now calls into question.

All sort of variants of the theme. But not quite what he envisioned I think.

It's hard to work out what a Russian would mean by a compromised labour... Up to 80% of their hospitals don't even have hot water. Some of the stories I've heard about Russian hospitals are pretty scarey, so I can imagine that "compromised" might mean something different to "compromised" in other countries...

“I want to sell drugs to everyone. I want to sell drugs to healthy people. I want drugs to sell like chewing gum.” former Merck CEO, Henry Gadsden

Momtezuma Tuatara is offline  
#11 of 44 Old 01-24-2006, 11:14 PM
 
mammom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: oh!
Posts: 1,179
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara
I have done so many labour supports now... I don't know what's wrong with these docs and nurses. Most women spike a temperature while pushing and some break into a sweat. What do they think "labour" is? Potato couch sitting or something?

Ask them what temperatures marathon runners get up to for goodnesss sake.
THANK YOU FOR SAYING THAT!!! I am no marathon runner for sure, but what the hell?? I can figure that out! Grr. I'm surprised our doula didn't step in and tell me to fight more. Our doula *did* say that all the nurses in the hall were cheering for me and that they were dumbfounded when the doc came in and interfered.

But again, I don't mean to steer this thread in another direction. I am interested in other responses to the original post - I'm sorry I don't have much to add!
mammom is offline  
#12 of 44 Old 01-24-2006, 11:18 PM
 
mammom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: oh!
Posts: 1,179
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara

It's hard to work out what a Russian would mean by a compromised labour... Up to 80% of their hospitals don't even have hot water. Some of the stories I've heard about Russian hospitals are pretty scarey, so I can imagine that "compromised" might mean something different to "compromised" in other countries...
I would think, then, since they don't even have hot water, that it would probably mean life or death situation. BUT I am curious about the effects of epidurals/spinals/c-sections/antibiotics and other interference. Probably won't be studied since there is no money to be made in NOT prescribing these drugs.
mammom is offline  
#13 of 44 Old 01-24-2006, 11:26 PM - Thread Starter
 
Momtezuma Tuatara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 8,091
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Jane, if you specialise in reading Russian literature... (I try when its in English...) you'll know they use heaps of stuff that makes no sense to us.

I've tried e-mailing some of them with questions, but the answers just confuse me more, since most have incomprehensible English.

A couple of years ago, when I went to a medical error conference, one of the participants was a Russian Paediatrician from the Ukraine, who came out here about 10 years before.

She was there as a medical error assessor, not a paediatrician. I didn't even know she was a paediatrician until I sat down to lunch with her. I had a friend who was then in Uzbekistan, who was having major problems, and was trying to connect her with Professor Kipshidze in Georgia and getting nowhere.

She she mentioned she was from Ukraine (and Istill didn't know she was a paediatrician) I asked her if she knew Prof K, and she said she didn't and asked why. I told her about my friend, and there was sort of a long silence, so I took a punt and said "Well, there is no point in me talking to anyone here about this, as the medicine in this country is so backward. At least in Russia people are thinking outside the square because they can't afford and don't want to be pegged down by the pharmaceutical companies.

She asked we shift to a corner table, so we did, and then she told me that she couldn[t practice medicine here, because in her opinion, our medical system was unethical and outrageous. That as part of her training as a paediatrician in Ukraine, she had to do four years of homeopathy. She said she treated 95% of problems with homeopathy on top of diet, and that it always worked. She said that the western countries' use of antibiotics was outrageous and was tantamount to criminal and that inthe Ukraine if she wanted to use antibiotics she had to call up another paediatrician and the hospital head for a full case review and only if all three agreed did the person get given antibiotics.

She told me a lot about the treatments they used, using probiotics, and also how far ahead they had been 12 years before, in the use of bacteriophages for treatment of bacterial infections and how good they were.

Her parting comment was that Western Medicine in some senses was still in the stone age, and Russian Medicine was too in that it was hampered by being unable to provide the basics. But that in other respects, russian medicine had an innovative way of thinking that no-one else did and was solely hampered by lack of funding and resources.

Which I thought was interesting. But probably not very in this forum

“I want to sell drugs to everyone. I want to sell drugs to healthy people. I want drugs to sell like chewing gum.” former Merck CEO, Henry Gadsden

Momtezuma Tuatara is offline  
#14 of 44 Old 01-25-2006, 12:17 AM
 
Mama Dragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Apparently on MDC
Posts: 11,061
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
She she mentioned she was from Ukraine (and Istill didn't know she was a paediatrician) I asked her if she knew Prof K, and she said she didn't and asked why. I told her about my friend, and there was sort of a long silence, so I took a punt and said "Well, there is no point in me talking to anyone here about this, as the medicine in this country is so backward. At least in Russia people are thinking outside the square because they can't afford and don't want to be pegged down by the pharmaceutical companies.

She asked we shift to a corner table, so we did, and then she told me that she couldn[t practice medicine here, because in her opinion, our medical system was unethical and outrageous. That as part of her training as a paediatrician in Ukraine, she had to do four years of homeopathy. She said she treated 95% of problems with homeopathy on top of diet, and that it always worked. She said that the western countries' use of antibiotics was outrageous and was tantamount to criminal and that inthe Ukraine if she wanted to use antibiotics she had to call up another paediatrician and the hospital head for a full case review and only if all three agreed did the person get given antibiotics.
I'm still trying to figure out the orignal post (Probably will come back on it in the morning when I'm a bit more rested!) but this info was amazing to me. Thank you for posting that.

Amy ~ Web Designing Single Mom to 4: DD14, DS12, DS5, DS3
Mama Dragon is offline  
#15 of 44 Old 01-25-2006, 04:05 AM - Thread Starter
 
Momtezuma Tuatara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 8,091
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
It makes you realise how insular pharmaceutical led doctors are, doesn't it?

I was stunned.

I also asked if her children wanted to be doctors, and she said, that no, both had gone into other professions, because they felt the same way as their mother about medicine in this country.

But she did say that given that they came to her when they were sick, that it was okay to live here. The life was much better, and ... she at least... was a doctor who knew how to treat her now adult kids...

so, swings and roundabouts.

“I want to sell drugs to everyone. I want to sell drugs to healthy people. I want drugs to sell like chewing gum.” former Merck CEO, Henry Gadsden

Momtezuma Tuatara is offline  
#16 of 44 Old 01-25-2006, 06:22 AM
 
AngelaB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Des Moines Iowa
Posts: 1,919
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
so does the study mean that a little more background history must be taken on a patient to determine if there are factors that are affecting the immune system that may not be obvious like the history of pregnancy and labor?
Would the more difficult labors have an effect epigenetically on the immune system cells of those particular infants?
The cause of the more profound negative premorbidity in the infants in group 3 sounds to me the reason for the mild infection to become worse. Maybe in pregnancy or delivery the lungs werent allowed the propper hormones to prepare them for breathing air (Maybe due to prematurity or surgery birth and not having baby heimlich)
I would think the viatmin dose would coralate with the symptoms and history of the patient. you wouldnt do the same for the group one as group 3. I think I might not be getting the study right though. It semms to me like they are saying you cant group everyone together just because they all have the same named infection.
~Angela~
AngelaB is offline  
#17 of 44 Old 01-25-2006, 08:51 AM
 
jessicaSAR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Lost in the Woods
Posts: 1,758
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
The question this raises for me is how babies with a complicated labor (though what that means is unknown) end up with an imbalance in gut flora (dysbacteriosis). Does a labor complication imply antibiotic use? Or, are the gut flora being passed on from the mother? Or are gut flora influenced by stress?

It is also interesting that they were able to normalize immune function with vitamin therapy and immune stimulators.

I also read somewhere that someone in Siberia came up with a bifidobeer to treat dysbacteriosis. Gotta admire the Russian ability to turn beer into remedy. My grandparents thought you could treat anything with vodka.

I need to think about this more, but just wanted to respond.
jessicaSAR is offline  
#18 of 44 Old 01-25-2006, 05:23 PM - Thread Starter
 
Momtezuma Tuatara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 8,091
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
The biggest point of this article to me, is that nutrition is the biggest immune modulator that there is, which means that nutrition done the right way, should both prevent, and "cure" infectious disease processes as the Russians use it now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jessicaSAR
The question this raises for me is how babies with a complicated labor (though what that means is unknown) end up with an imbalance in gut flora (dysbacteriosis). Does a labor complication imply antibiotic use?
No, sinc antibiotics are like hen's teeth in Russia.
Quote:
Or, are the gut flora being passed on from the mother?
If the mother breastfeeds, but many areas of Russia are highly polluted that children are being born with immune system defects, and mothers are more prone to problems as well. In Belarus for instance, one in three children have thymomegalia ( Kuz’menko L. G., Arziamova V. V. Nedostatochnost’ produktsii protivodifteriinyh antitel u detei s timomegaliei pri immunizatsii vaktsinoi AKDS (The insufficiency of the anti-diphtheria antibodies production after immunization with DPT vaccine) Detskie infektsii (Children infections), 2004, 2(7), с. 24-26.) and in these children the DPT vaccine actually destroys and reduces immunity to pertussis and diphtheria as well as worsening the immune system and causing further problems

Quote:
It is known that DPT vaccination even in healthy children not only produces a specific immune response, but causes the allergic reorganization in the body, lowers the specific resistance… The children with modified reactivity from the high-risk groups react to DPT-vaccination by the long-term suppression of resistance, by developing postvaccinal complications, by defective immune response, by high morbidity… It was demonstrated the DPT-vaccinations (from the first to the third shot) in the most children with thymomegalia of the 1st grade by their first year of life caused the complicated course of the vaccinal process, namely allergic complications, acute respiratory diseases, the lack or inferior immune reaction to diphtheria or pertussis toxins and enlarging the thymus up to 2nd-3rd grade. The result of the three shots was the factual absence of immunity to whooping cough, low anti-diphtheria and high anti-tetanus… immunity.” Adishcheva N. I. Kliniko-immunologicheskie pokazateli vaktsinal’nogo protsessa AKDS u detei s uvelicheniem timusa I stepeni (Clinical-immunological characteristics of the vaccinal process in children with 1st grade thymomegalia Abstract of PhD thesis. Tomsk, 1996, pp. 2 and 24.

Quote:
Or are gut flora influenced by stress?
Yes, stress has a huge influence on gut flora.

so the situation in Russia is very complicated.

Quote:
It is also interesting that they were able to normalize immune function with vitamin therapy and immune stimulators.
Absolutely, and they are huge prescribers and users of probiotics in many forms. I maintain its the main thing that holds the russian people togehter
Quote:
I also read somewhere that someone in Siberia came up with a bifidobeer to treat dysbacteriosis. Gotta admire the Russian ability to turn beer into remedy. My grandparents thought you could treat anything with vodka.
The russians have many probiotics, not just beer. They also use Kvass, most of their pickling is done by natural ferment, they use kefir, matsoni, and a whole variety of cheese made with unpasteurised milks, and fermenting techniques.

As a people even with pollution, there mineral levels are still good, and... here is a tip for you.

When the Lord of the Rings was done here, the hair for the wigs came from Russia. Why? Because Russians have the best, strongest hair in the world, because despite their living conditions their genetic lines are still very good, precisely because people have NOT been able to give up their traditional diets and traditional remedies.

Yes there are areas there where sickness and disease are desperately bad, but those areas are usually the areas where ecological degradation is the worst, like in Belarus, Chernobyl etc.. but its getting worse there so quickly that I don't expect things to get much better for Russians in general.

“I want to sell drugs to everyone. I want to sell drugs to healthy people. I want drugs to sell like chewing gum.” former Merck CEO, Henry Gadsden

Momtezuma Tuatara is offline  
#19 of 44 Old 01-26-2006, 12:00 PM
 
amnesiac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: at the end of the longest line
Posts: 4,984
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
JaneS-

maybe this will give you more info about Riboxin:
http://www.pdrhealth.com/drug_info/n...ino_0144.shtml
amnesiac is offline  
#20 of 44 Old 01-26-2006, 02:02 PM
 
morning glory's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 606
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I think every country has their "pet" disease and "pet" treatment. I took a couple of medical anthropolgy classes in university and I seem to remember the French and fond of blaming things on the liver, thr British prefer to look at the bowels...can't remember what it was for other countries. You are also four to six times more likely (this was years ago...I bet its even more now) to undergo a hysterectomy as "treatment" in North America as you are in Europe. I remember reading a specific case of a woman in her very early 20's who was told by her Dr in the USA that she would absolutely need a hysterectomy ASAP and sorry about the whole not being able to have kids thing, but you need to consider your health. I don't think the article said what the problem was specifically. Luckily this woman had family in France so she sought a second opinion there. She did not have the hysterectomy and did go on to have children. But I'm getting WAY off topic....

With the "pet" diseases and treatments it seems that The USA in particular and the west in general favours very invasive proceedures and patentable prescriptions while other parts of the world seem to have no problem (and comparably good or better health, often under less optimal living conditions) with making do with traditional rememdies and traditional diet. As a result of their lack of dependence on drug companies they are also more likely to look at treatments that may not be "proven" by "scientific, medical" (drug company?) standards (2000 year history isn't enough for some people, I guess).

I really love this term "immunostimulators". For many Dr.s here that would be vaccinations...Many North American Dr's would not really consider *vitamins* to be an immunostimulator. The lack of consideration given to diet by Dr's here (and I'm in Canada, by the way) FLOORS me. I worked in a ND clinic before I became a mama and there was a case of one girl who came in and had been having stomach trouble for years. She was scheduled for an MRI to be followed by exploratory surgery because the Dr's couldn't figure out what the problem was. The first she had heard about changing her diet was when she saw the ND...she stopped eating white bagels with processed cheese for breakfast, fast food for lunch and something that came from a box for supper and was "cured" in a month. She must have seen a dozen Dr's beofre she saw the ND and NOT ONE person thought to mention that she should look at her DIET to deal with a STOMACH problem?

I think in Western Medicine there is also a tendency to need to feel like you are doing something. Thats why there are so many antibiotics prescribed for viruses or bacteria that have already run their course. And probably a big part of why we love to vax so much. To start to rely on nutrition would be a huge shift not just for Dr's but for most of the population. Maybe we need to start to look at calling things like the immunostimulators in the above quote as "nutriceuticals" (yeah, I know thats already going on) rather than "vitamins"...it would probably sit better with people that way.

Okay...now I'm going to go search 3/4 of the words in the OP so I can really understand what it is saying.

Casey
morning glory is offline  
#21 of 44 Old 01-26-2006, 09:20 PM - Thread Starter
 
Momtezuma Tuatara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 8,091
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Russia is the exception in that their medical budget and research is constrained by lack of money. Therefore they are more prepared to look at basics than countries to whom the Nazdaq and Wall Street are the primary motivators for what they do.

Those two factors are irrelevant.

I think the old chinese system should be mandatory actually. That a doctor gets paid an annual fee per family providing the family stays healthy. So the doctor concentrates on making sure lifestyle is right.

If the family gets sick, the doctor still has to treat them but he doesn't get paid, and the costs are his responsibility. Just think what a mind-set shift that would cause?

“I want to sell drugs to everyone. I want to sell drugs to healthy people. I want drugs to sell like chewing gum.” former Merck CEO, Henry Gadsden

Momtezuma Tuatara is offline  
#22 of 44 Old 01-28-2006, 02:40 AM
 
JaneS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,114
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara
Her parting comment was that Western Medicine in some senses was still in the stone age, and Russian Medicine was too in that it was hampered by being unable to provide the basics. But that in other respects, russian medicine had an innovative way of thinking that no-one else did and was solely hampered by lack of funding and resources.

Which I thought was interesting. But probably not very in this forum
I think it's extremely interesting and relevant... I'm a huge believer in the "low tech" approach, i.e. nutrition and immune stimulation, as I'm sure many here are.
JaneS is offline  
#23 of 44 Old 01-28-2006, 02:49 AM
 
JaneS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,114
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Or, are the gut flora being passed on from the mother?
Yes, the original gut flora that colonizes the baby's sterile gi tract comes from the pass thru the vaginal birth canal. Which is why c-section babies have been shown to have vastly different gut flora (and greater chance of allergies) because they pick up theirs from whoever is handling them, and the hospital environment

And then add routine antibx before/during/after birth to the mix, and you get a recipe for immune system disaster.

Anything other than breastmilk to an infant in those first few days messes with gi flora colonization as well.

I've read a few things that say changing this "original flora" is very, very hard if not impossible to do. I can tell you we're still struggling with that ourselves (During his birth DS was dealt my poor gut, antibiotics, supplemental formula and given glucose to suck on too during his blood draws! )
JaneS is offline  
#24 of 44 Old 01-28-2006, 02:55 AM
 
JaneS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,114
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Kefir is the common food for weaning in Russia, an acquaintance's adopted DD got it in orphanage.

And she also got all her vax's again once arrived in States "just in case" the strains weren't viable or some such ridiculous reason. Apparently if they did not do this they wouldn't have been able to adopt at all.
JaneS is offline  
#25 of 44 Old 01-28-2006, 03:18 AM
 
guestmama9911's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 3,399
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Subscribing so I can come back and read all this later.
guestmama9911 is offline  
#26 of 44 Old 01-28-2006, 09:07 AM
 
jessicaSAR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Lost in the Woods
Posts: 1,758
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by JaneS
Yes, the original gut flora that colonizes the baby's sterile gi tract comes from the pass thru the vaginal birth canal. Which is why c-section babies have been shown to have vastly different gut flora (and greater chance of allergies) because they pick up theirs from whoever is handling them, and the hospital environment

And then add routine antibx before/during/after birth to the mix, and you get a recipe for immune system disaster.

Anything other than breastmilk to an infant in those first few days messes with gi flora colonization as well.

I've read a few things that say changing this "original flora" is very, very hard if not impossible to do. I can tell you we're still struggling with that ourselves (During his birth DS was dealt my poor gut, antibiotics, supplemental formula and given glucose to suck on too during his blood draws! )

This is fascinating. I'll bet you never hear a dr warn you of this as one of the disadvantages of c-section.
jessicaSAR is offline  
#27 of 44 Old 01-28-2006, 09:18 AM - Thread Starter
 
Momtezuma Tuatara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 8,091
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
No, because most doctors don't know. If you asked them, they'd look at you totally blankly.

“I want to sell drugs to everyone. I want to sell drugs to healthy people. I want drugs to sell like chewing gum.” former Merck CEO, Henry Gadsden

Momtezuma Tuatara is offline  
#28 of 44 Old 01-28-2006, 10:06 AM
 
wednesday's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 5,545
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by JaneS
And DS's ND knew something when she px'd quercetin for his eczema. Darned hard to give to a babe though, that stuff stains everything!
Where do you get liquid quercetin?
wednesday is offline  
#29 of 44 Old 01-28-2006, 02:09 PM
 
Mirzam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Outside the hive mind
Posts: 7,440
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 64 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara
No, because most doctors don't know. If you asked them, they'd look at you totally blankly.
Exactly.

Rainbow.giftstillheart.gifsmile.gif

 

"If you find from your own experience that something is a fact and it contradicts what some authority has written down, then you must abandon the authority and base your reasoning on your own findings"~ Leonardo da Vinci

Mirzam is online now  
#30 of 44 Old 01-28-2006, 02:49 PM
 
JaneS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,114
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jessicaSAR
This is fascinating. I'll bet you never hear a dr warn you of this as one of the disadvantages of c-section.
That's because there ARE no disadvantages don't you know! :

Great write up on what supplementation does to infants gi tract:

Supplementation of the Breastfed Baby
"Just One Bottle Won't Hurt"-- or Will It?

Marsha Walker, RN, IBCLC
http://www.massbfc.org/formula/bottle.html
JaneS is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off