DH emailed our doc Update post #70 - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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#61 of 87 Old 05-19-2006, 04:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Kirsten
I think I might be in the minority here..... You don't need her to understand, validate or acccept your choice/reasons at all. You are the parents.
You're not in the minority. Almost all of us here (including me) would have normally told her to tell her doc to shove it if the doc gave her even a hint of a problem.

The OP is trying to be "nice" since her doc is a family friend. I don't think she would go through the trouble if it were just a doc.
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#62 of 87 Old 05-19-2006, 04:40 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Yeah, I do actually agree with you, Kirsten. I don't think we do have to justify our choices to her. But 1, she is a family friend, so we do want to be nice to her, and 2, DH really wants to do it. I don't really know what his hang-up is, but he just wants a doctor to tell him that we are not crazy. I don't really know why -- it's a compromise.

I must say, though, that writing the letter really did help me to formulate my thoughts and think about my objections.
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#63 of 87 Old 05-19-2006, 04:51 PM
 
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I must say, though, that writing the letter really did help me to formulate my thoughts and think about my objections.

I think that is already worth a lot! But I am still sooo curious about the response... My doc said: But vaccines save sooo many lives. As if we wouldn't be here otherwise...
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#64 of 87 Old 05-19-2006, 05:33 PM
 
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I would be very firm about wanting a written response.
I bet her "vax speil" is very compelling, but factually incorrect in a lot of ways, but only in writing will you be able to prove it, if you feel the need.

I'm sure she does want to see you in person! She's had a lot of practice.
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#65 of 87 Old 05-19-2006, 09:46 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ani'smommy
Yeah, I don't know. I mean, it would be pretty tough to go point by point in the letter and say each one is wrong, right?
Depends.

A certain very large drug company attempted to take me to the washers not so long ago, and I responded point by point in a 38 page letter. Including all the citations and online URLs.

It was very entertaining watching their manoeuvrings not the least of which was to point out that my letter was invalid becuase 60% of the references were older than five years.

To which I responded that the product was formulated well before that time, therefore any/all medical citations were relevant.

Furthermore, since 40% of mine were within five years, and they had provided me with no references, I was, by their own admission, 40% more accurate than they were.

The correspondence fizzled out with bluster and bullying.

One day, I may write it up. I did try, but the defamation lawyer nixxed it on the basis that even though I was right, it would be worth it to the company to do a multi-million harrassment lawsuit, just to annoy the daylights out of me and shut me up for a while.

“I want to sell drugs to everyone. I want to sell drugs to healthy people. I want drugs to sell like chewing gum.” former Merck CEO, Henry Gadsden

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#66 of 87 Old 05-19-2006, 09:55 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ani'smommy
I'm pretty sure you mean the other way around, but that is a very good point. I think since she is a family friend maybe she will feel more comfortable responding in writing. At least that's what I'm hoping.


You are correct.

Given the time of day it was written, it was a case of mental mush.

“I want to sell drugs to everyone. I want to sell drugs to healthy people. I want drugs to sell like chewing gum.” former Merck CEO, Henry Gadsden

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#67 of 87 Old 05-19-2006, 09:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara


You are correct.

Given the time of day it was written, it was a case of mental mush.
Writes note to self.

When putting up post in middle of night, is apt to make oneself look a total dork.

Don't do it.

“I want to sell drugs to everyone. I want to sell drugs to healthy people. I want drugs to sell like chewing gum.” former Merck CEO, Henry Gadsden

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#68 of 87 Old 05-19-2006, 10:27 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirsten
I think I might be in the minority here..... I think the email was well written but it feels a little "we are trying too hard to get you to accept the choice we are trying to make" to me. Like you NEED her to understand all your reasons and validate them. A little too "parent/child" feeling to me - like she has the final word and you are pleading your case.

You don't need her to understand, validate or acccept your choice/reasons at all. You are the parents. You researched it; you decided. She can be ok with it - which is great especially since she is also a family friend. Or she can think it is the wrong choice. Either way doesn't change a thing. Your dh needs to get to the place where he takes what the medical profession says with a grain of salt. Their hands are tied a bit by insurance premiums, the AMA or AAP, etc.

I wouldn't expect anything in writing other than the standard pro-vax stuff. She won't put in writing anything that will come back to bite her later - why would she? Why do you even need her to? There doesn't need to be any more emails or in person talks or anything. Your dh just needs to get ok with making healthcare decisions for your child - using a combination of research from many areas, of whom your doctor is only one. She has already said she won't drop you for not vaxxing - that is all you need to know.

I personally vax my kids on a delayed schedule, with some new or minor vaxes dropped altogether. I am very comfortable with what I'm doing - well, not VERY but I feel it is the best of many choices for us. I know our ped (whom I really trust and like very much) would rather I vax fully on the AAP schedule, but he is very respectful of my choices for MY children. If he couldn't then he wouldn't be our ped. I must say that I am really respectful of him and his position also though. I don't need him to put in writing that my position is valid - I know it is.
I am jumping in a little late here, but I really liked this post. I am hoping that DH's persistence stems from an awakening, that will be validated ... not necessarily by her agreement, but by her response (or lack therof.) I have found that even though I am fairly comfortable with my decisions concerning vaxing, and with my ped, I find it fun just to remind him that I know my stuff ...

ex: Today at my new baby's (9 days old) first appointment, doc did the whole weigh in/ measuring thing, then showed me where my baby was on the growth chart ... weighed slightly less than average on the chart, said I should bring him back next week for another weigh in. Now I know that breatfed babies take a little longer to gain back their birthweight, so I made an appt. for the week [I]after[I]that. But as for the growth chart I said to him, "but that chart is for bottle fed infants isn't it?" He admitted that it was, so basically the chart shows me how my breastfed baby compares to how a bottlefed baby of the same height and weight would compare to another bottle fed baby. ... and this information helps me how?

Anyway back on topic, the great thing is that DH is getting involved ... now is his opportunity to see for himself. I think this email for him, means alot and may be a real turning point for him.

Good luck Ani'smommy!
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#69 of 87 Old 05-27-2006, 02:00 PM
 
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#70 of 87 Old 05-27-2006, 02:51 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Okay, here's what happened now:

Dh's email to her:
Quote:
I'm sorry to hear that you were ill and hope you're feeling better.
Regardless of the reason, it’s not a big deal that you didn’t get back to us
earlier as I'm quite aware that we're probably asking more of you than most
of your patients (or their parents) would. In any case, we do think the
issue is important enough to warrant this amount of attention.

We would be happy to hear your positive opinions on the issue (I believe you
referred to it earlier as your "schpiel" [sp.?]). However, since we've
already looked into a whole host of opinions of doctors, researchers and
concerned parents we are pretty well acquainted with the evidence and
arguments both pro and con. What we are really looking for is your opinion
on whether the general line of thinking and evidence in our prior message is
either: A) Sound medical opinion with real evidence, research and reasoning
backing it up, which just might be right in maintaining that the
risk-benefit scale tips at least slightly in favor of avoiding some or all
vaccines, and thus might be the safer course of action for our daughter,
whether or not you might personally think the scale tips at least slightly
in the other direction, or B) Kooky, conspiracy-theory pseudo-science
dreamed up by a bunch of paranoid quacks, which, if followed, will mislead
well-intentioned parents like us into seriously endangering the health of
their children.

Again, I understand that you don't ultimately agree with the way we are
leaning at this point and we want to listen to why, but first we'd like to
hear your response to the points we put forward.

I’m attaching the main body of the previous email below.

Thanks so much for your time and consideration, we really appreciate it.
And her response:

Quote:
I just found a really good resource that explains my view on thingsa and I will drop it off Friday when I have to do some running around. I am a
pretty big vaccine supporter for two reasons; protecting your own child,
and what most anti-vaccine literature doesn't ptu much thought
into,protecting your community. That's it in a quick nutshell, but I can
talk to you later.
So yesterday, when I was putting Ani down for a nap, she must have stopped by. And on the table was a pamphlet and a note that said:

Quote:
This is a great straight-forward pamphlet explaining many of the misconceptions about immunizations. Unfortunately, a lot of the "anti-immunization" literature is "research taken out of context" science (or non-science.) Very similar to early creationism literature. Talk to you soon.
And the packet? Printed off the CDC website -- http://www.cdc.gov/nip/publications/6mishome.htm

So, I'm not sure where we're going to go from here. DH is pretty pissed that she pretty much refuses to answer his question which he has stated many times, and also that she doesn't address any of our concerns.

I'm not very suprised.

Unfortunately, DH is kind of mad that I have read this pamphlet before but did not show him. He thinks I only gave him one side of the issue. Well, maybe I did, but that's what you do when you're arguing a point, isn't it? Anyway, he is kind of convinced by it, but only read it last night so we haven't had a chance to talk about it yet.

I don't really want to go through the pamphlet point by point, because it will be a lot of work to organize all my information and sources into a response and I am taking grad school midterms right now, but I suppose if it comes to that, I will do it.

Sigh. The saga continues.
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#71 of 87 Old 05-27-2006, 06:34 PM
 
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Even if your doc, by some wild chance, actually secretly agrees with your points she will NEVER say it out loud or in writing to you. That could be career-suicide for her. She is not going to agree with you. She's never going to say that you could possibly be right. Never. I don't understand your need to have this doctor agree with you or even "see your points."

You and your dh need to make this decision without the doctor. You know what side she's on and she's never going to say otherwise.

It's obvious that neither of you are comfortable with either decision. Which means you need to research more, plain and simple. Good luck to you, I hope you figure it all out.

Rachel, mom to Jake (5/04) and Alexia (7/07) a surprise UC thanks to hypnobabies!
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#72 of 87 Old 05-27-2006, 06:46 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Shelsi
Even if your doc, by some wild chance, actually secretly agrees with your points she will NEVER say it out loud or in writing to you. That could be career-suicide for her. She is not going to agree with you. She's never going to say that you could possibly be right. Never. I don't understand your need to have this doctor agree with you or even "see your points."

You and your dh need to make this decision without the doctor. You know what side she's on and she's never going to say otherwise.

It's obvious that neither of you are comfortable with either decision. Which means you need to research more, plain and simple. Good luck to you, I hope you figure it all out.
I am comfortable with it, but dh isn't. Please read the beginning of the thread.
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#73 of 87 Old 05-27-2006, 07:33 PM
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and what most anti-vaccine literature doesn't ptu much thought
into,protecting your community
This one really bugs me. I mean, hey, as I citizen I do care about my community and all, but as a parent, I am obligated to put my child first. I will not risk my child's well-being for the dubious "larger good" and I hate the implication that I am expected to do so.

PhDin' mama to dd (Oct. 2005)
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#74 of 87 Old 05-27-2006, 07:38 PM
 
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Maybe you could ask him to pick the one he feels most strongly about?
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#75 of 87 Old 05-27-2006, 07:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ani'smommy
And the packet? Printed off the CDC website -- http://www.cdc.gov/nip/publications/6mishome.htm
I have ranted about that particular webpage before, so I did a search on my posts and came up with this, which might help:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...0&postcount=33
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#76 of 87 Old 05-27-2006, 07:54 PM
 
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And with regard to your obligation to your community, the assumption that being vaccinated protects those around you from being ill is simply that--an assumption. It turns out to not be true. There is an accumulation of research indicating that vaccinated persons become infected with and transmit disease organisms, regardless of whether they are aware of being "sick."

http://www.vaccinationnews.com/Scand...ella_vaxed.htm
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#77 of 87 Old 05-27-2006, 08:08 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shelsi
I don't understand your need to have this doctor agree with you or even "see your points."

You and your dh need to make this decision without the doctor. You know what side she's on and she's never going to say otherwise.
The Doctor is a family friend, THAT is why it's important. If my Ped were a family friend I'd feel the same way.
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#78 of 87 Old 05-27-2006, 08:14 PM
 
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ani'smommy, personally I think that is the only way she knows to ask you to drop the issue. She's probably okay about you making a choice, but not okay about you challenging her mindset.

“I want to sell drugs to everyone. I want to sell drugs to healthy people. I want drugs to sell like chewing gum.” former Merck CEO, Henry Gadsden

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#79 of 87 Old 05-27-2006, 08:22 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EVC
This one really bugs me. I mean, hey, as I citizen I do care about my community and all, but as a parent, I am obligated to put my child first. I will not risk my child's well-being for the dubious "larger good" and I hate the implication that I am expected to do so.
I don't get that either. It seem so obvious: if other people are worried about not being protected, then by all means, vaccinate. I don't really see what my kid has to do with it.

But yeah, I totally agree with your point too. As much as I value being a part of a community, my job is to protect my kids. That's it.
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#80 of 87 Old 05-27-2006, 08:25 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by mamakay
Maybe you could ask him to pick the one he feels most strongly about?
I will try that, although, I think his hang-up is going against the medical norm. He is willing to do plenty of other mainstream things, even some that I wouldn't be surprised if our doc disagreed with (although we don't discuss parenting), but now I think that stupid pamphlet scared him. Argh.
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#81 of 87 Old 05-27-2006, 08:27 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wednesday
I have ranted about that particular webpage before, so I did a search on my posts and came up with this, which might help:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...0&postcount=33
Thank you!
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#82 of 87 Old 05-27-2006, 08:28 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wednesday
And with regard to your obligation to your community, the assumption that being vaccinated protects those around you from being ill is simply that--an assumption. It turns out to not be true. There is an accumulation of research indicating that vaccinated persons become infected with and transmit disease organisms, regardless of whether they are aware of being "sick."

http://www.vaccinationnews.com/Scand...ella_vaxed.htm
Wow, that is very interesting. Wow. I had no idea.
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#83 of 87 Old 05-27-2006, 08:33 PM
 
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And it's not just rubella and measles--I don't have links handy but pertussis is spread by the vaxed as well.
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#84 of 87 Old 05-27-2006, 08:33 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara
ani'smommy, personally I think that is the only way she knows to ask you to drop the issue. She's probably okay about you making a choice, but not okay about you challenging her mindset.
That is a very interesting point. She, the doctor, that is, is usually very hands off. She doesn't give any advice unless asked for and always respects our wishes.

When I was at a pre-natal appointment with her I mentioned that I saw an internal monitor, you know, the kind the stick in the baby's head?, and I said "wow, that looks horrible, I definately don't want that!" I said it in kind of an off-hand way, but when I was in labor I know that they wanted to use one, because I was induced, but she wouldn't allow it.

The thing is, DH just has one question that he has asked about four times now. He just wants her to day "yeah, I disagree wiith you, but I don't think you're crazy." But I guess she can't even say that.

I have to admit that I'm getting pretty tired of this whole thing. I kind of want to get Ani a lead test at some point, too, but I don't want to take her in to the office until this is decided.
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#85 of 87 Old 05-28-2006, 05:27 AM
 
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Well, she probably doesn't think you're crazy, but she probably does think you're misinformed.
Would "misinformed" be ok with your husband?
If not, could you pick just one point to prove to him that you're not, in fact, misinformed?
Because really, for most peds, the mantra "vaccines are good" is like a religious belief. It's something they believe because they want to and need to. They don't want to critically examine it. In their mind, their dogma speaks for itself.
So even if you were to "win" a debate with her, she'd still assume you were misinformed, and that there was a good answer out there, but she just didn't have time to find it or something.
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#86 of 87 Old 05-28-2006, 10:16 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wednesday
I have ranted about that particular webpage before, so I did a search on my posts and came up with this, which might help:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...0&postcount=33
Thank you so much for posting this. You answered, before I even asked, my questions regarding that graph.
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#87 of 87 Old 05-28-2006, 03:17 PM
 
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We have basically run into the same thing with our doctor. When we decided to stop vaccinating we were given the "This is what CDC recommends" speech and pamphlets over and over again.
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