autism due to abx? - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 27 Old 06-16-2006, 01:22 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Just wondering if anyone else has heard of this. I know a woman who has three boys, none of whom have been vaxed, and her youngest is autistic. She believes (and I find I agree with her) that his autism was caused by him being 'mainlined" with abx his second day of life (horrible story, STUPID nurse, UGH!! to routine hospital birth) and then she was on some powerful abx for another six weeks after that that were supposedly "approved for use during BF" but that my pal now believes otherwise about. He was not diagnosed with regressive autism - she says he was different from the beginning, never engaging or responsive like her other boys.

She is involved in a lot of autism support groups and online stuff, but not here, and she says she's had contact with about 2,000 people and none of their kids are unvaxed but autistic. I have seen a lot of stuff about nutrition, healing the gut, etc here at MDC so I thought perhaps one of y'all had heard of another case like this or perhaps had info about healing profound gut problems like this one.

: ...
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#2 of 27 Old 06-16-2006, 02:16 PM
 
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I've seen enough to feel that repeated prolonged antibiotics in pregnancy are 'incriminated' in autism development. There is absolutely no justification for instance, for antibiotics for endogenous e.coli infections.

If paraplegics manage it with 5 grams vitamin C a day (that's what the country's spinal units put them on and it works) then pregnant women who have that problem can manage it the same way....

“I want to sell drugs to everyone. I want to sell drugs to healthy people. I want drugs to sell like chewing gum.” former Merck CEO, Henry Gadsden

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#3 of 27 Old 06-16-2006, 02:31 PM
 
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I am increasingly convinced that antibiotics for newborns are evil unless it's a matter of life and death. We are dealing with this in my kids. DS received IV ampicillin the first three days of his life because the ped wasn't 100% sure he didn't have pneumonia. In retrospect this is one of the stupidest things I've ever agreed to. Possibly even dumber than letting DD be vaxed for 6 months. (His breathing problems were obviously due to his having been born 4 weeks early and there was no evidence of infection.) DS has been diagnosed with gut dysbiosis and overgrowth of klebsiella that tested to be resistant to none other than ampicillin. I have a hard time believing that stupid course of antibiotics wouldn't have been the source of this problem.

DS doesn't appear to have ASD but DOES have GI problems, mild communication delay, appears to have sensory issues and possibly may be headed for ADHD. He hasn't been vaxed and won't be. And he certainly won't be getting any more antibiotics without an extremely convincing case. We're trying to treat him with probiotics and diet intervention.

DD also got antibiotics at birth and has severe dysbiosis that we think may be a root cause of her autism (but she may have metal issues so we're not sure; kind of a chicken and egg dilemma here). She did get vaxed for six months. I highly recommend that your friend find "Gut and Psychology Syndrome" by Natasha Campbell McBride and also "Breaking the Vicious Cycle" by Elaine Gotschall. These books are looking like they might be the key to DD's recovery.
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#4 of 27 Old 06-16-2006, 02:41 PM
 
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Krissi, in my pub med searching on antibiotics and probiotics I was astonished to find how much the Russian medical people know about this.

Two years ago, I also had the chance to talk to a Russian paediatrician who came to this country, (not USA) but will not practice here as she considers our use of antibiotics in newborns criminal.

Over there, paediatricians who know something, actually USE probiotics to stabilise and treat infectious disease. If you know where to look, you will find some articles in pubmed with english abstracts which talk about that. Do a few word combos, but if you get stuck I will give you some PMIDs

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#5 of 27 Old 06-16-2006, 05:42 PM
 
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MT: Wow! I am not sure if I'm finding the specific abstracts that you're talking about, but I sure am coming across some interesting stuff with a basic search on "probiotics newborn". Now I see why the holistic ped wanted DS to take L.rhamnosus. For anyone reading, here's a really interesting US-based paper on the intestinal ecosystem in newborn babies:
http://www.pedresearch.org/cgi/content/full/58/4/625

A quote from the conclusion:
Quote:
Establishment and maintenance of a "normal" intestinal microflora may help abrogate several neonatal inflammatory conditions that not only affect the GI tract but are initiated in the gut and cause damage to distal organs such as the lung and brain. Decreasing excessive use of antibiotics and increasing the use of pro- and prebiotics or symbiotic nutrients such as human milk that promote the establishment and growth of a beneficial microflora are means by which neonatologists can maintain their patients’ intestinal ecosystem.
Now I'm off to work my way through the studies linked in the reference section!
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#6 of 27 Old 06-16-2006, 06:51 PM - Thread Starter
 
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my pal's son is like five or six now, so any ideas on how to heal his gut or see if that might help him? as i said, she is part of many autism groups but has yet to find another parent of a child who has autism but is not vaxed/autism caused by abx.

i don't know if they have tried diets or not but i would guess they have as she is fairly well-versed in dealing with her son and helping him. he does not have issues that chelation might help with given that he's not been exposed to heavy metals, etc.

has anyone else heard of a non-vaxed child with autism?
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#7 of 27 Old 06-16-2006, 07:42 PM
 
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Heidi, I highly recommend the Gut and Psychology Syndrome book I mentioned above. It is fairly new and not widely available because it was published in Britain; I had to pay $35 for it because only 2 or 3 websites in the US sell it. Antibiotics do have a lot to do with these problems. I only heard about this book because it was discussed on the pecanbread mailing list, but it is a great read and addresses this subject in great depth. If the autism is indeed caused by antibiotics, which I can totally believe, then it should be at least partly treatable by probiotics, supplements and specific dietary changes (not just the GFCF diet, which isn't sufficient to address this problem.)

Also, vaccines are not the only source of heavy metals for these kids. They are also found in environmental pollution and possibly acquired in utero. One mom on another group found that her child was acquiring arsenic by constantly drinking from plastic water bottles and his body wasn't able to clear it (this isn't a problem for most people). Other moms have found that their bathtubs or tap water faucets are contaminated with lead. It is likely that children with autism have a defect in their ability to process toxins, given that plenty of other children can receive the same exposure without problems. One study of over 500 children found that 99% had demonstrable problems with their metal metabolism. Mercury in vaccines is not the only culprit. Heavy metals are everywhere and it's easy to see how someone who can't clear them from the body would build up high levels.
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#8 of 27 Old 06-16-2006, 11:27 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara
I've seen enough to feel that repeated prolonged antibiotics in pregnancy are 'incriminated' in autism development. There is absolutely no justification for instance, for antibiotics for endogenous e.coli infections.
This is OT of the thread, but MT could you elaborate on this? It caught my eye as I rec'd a call from by OB office (23 weeks pregnant) today telling me a urinalysis came back positive for a UTI. They wanted me on antibiotics and I expressed I would rather just drink excess of cranberry juice and take additional probiotics. They seriously were against that and went to explain that there was ecoli present, as well as other things (that i don't recall). She talked about how not treating with abx (she prescribed bactram -sp?-) could result in miscarraige.

I hate taking medication, but their scare tactics worked.

Thanks for any info you can give!
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#9 of 27 Old 06-17-2006, 12:33 AM
 
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I have three out of four non vaxed children with ASD issues. Child #3 had antibiotics at birth because he was on a ventelator, he was on a feeding tube, he was transported to the hospital from the homebirth with retractions and resperatory disress (I believe they gave antibiotics to him and I am not sure we thought we had a choice). He had over fifteen chest xrays, which can't be good either.
Children #2 and #4 have both been on antibiotics for urinary tract infections once. #4 was burned by placing her hand on the stove once and had antibiotics. The child who recieved antibiotics twice and the child who was given abx at the hospital are both more effected, but in different ways. They also have totally different heavy metal accumulations in their hair tests. Child #5 is non vaxed and recieved no abx and is the most healthy neurotypical of all of our children, with the least toxic heavy metals showing up on the hair test.

I will keep this in mind if we ever think we need abx again and try harder to avoid them.
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#10 of 27 Old 06-17-2006, 12:46 AM
 
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Karen DeFelice's book is a must read: www.enzymestuff.com
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#11 of 27 Old 06-17-2006, 01:17 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heidi_m
has anyone else heard of a non-vaxed child with autism?
Only one with regressive autism. He was given anti-epileptic medication at 6 months and became autistic. Another child was given the same medication at six weeks and, because his personality changed, his mother suspected that the medication had caused his autism.

Another was born prematurely and given too much oxygen. He is both blind and autistic.

The other two children were autistic from birth. Their mother had rubella during her fourth pregnancy and whooping cough during her fifth. This mother's second oldest child had a vaccine reaction, regressed and became autistic, that's why she stopped vaccinating. She has three children out of five with autism.
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#12 of 27 Old 06-17-2006, 01:22 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mom2owen1
This is OT of the thread, but MT could you elaborate on this? It caught my eye as I rec'd a call from by OB office (23 weeks pregnant) today telling me a urinalysis came back positive for a UTI. They wanted me on antibiotics and I expressed I would rather just drink excess of cranberry juice and take additional probiotics. They seriously were against that and went to explain that there was ecoli present, as well as other things (that i don't recall). She talked about how not treating with abx (she prescribed bactram -sp?-) could result in miscarraige.

I hate taking medication, but their scare tactics worked.

Thanks for any info you can give!
Noooo...... do nothing yet okay?

I need to pull out all my files, pull out the relevant stuff, and then pull up Pubmed and find the URL's.

Hangabout.

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#13 of 27 Old 06-17-2006, 01:25 AM
 
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But first. How I found out about this. I was fronting a medical misadventure case (I'm not a lawyer, but a bush-lawyer ) and the guy concerned had to be at the spinal unit for a while, and while there, he had an e-coli infection. His bowel is spastic, so its easy for them to get it. so they put him on vitamin C because that is what they use to prevent all the paraplegics from getting impacted bowel and it prevents e.coli backing up to cause a UTI.

Now, off to find files...

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#14 of 27 Old 06-17-2006, 01:32 AM
 
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Kris... um... are you constipated?

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#15 of 27 Old 06-17-2006, 01:59 AM
 
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Lets do a pubmed gut flora 101 first, huh?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=12420114

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=12386516

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=12215177

Kris, this applies to you, not just children:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=11852581

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=7653120

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=8017124

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=11799281

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/73/6/1142S

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/73/2/444S


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=9706796

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=11297952

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=12583961

Kris, for you: full text is available:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=12600849

Jane, this you may have already seen....

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=12582309

Remember strep Pneumonaie?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=12540416

As we age, we need to watch gut flora more:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=12496680

Nutrients:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=12495459

another allergy one:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=12494299

Very important:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=8701669

Kefir:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=12452966

other

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=12443824

Pneumonia:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=9700889


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=11698781

http://ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/69/5/1028S

http://ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/69/5/1035S


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=11157358

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=11297958

http://www.univ_lille1.fr/lea/Menu_d...cenier_CPD.pdf

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=10532394

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=10645469

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=9890463



Hope they all work.

Is that enough for a start?

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#16 of 27 Old 06-17-2006, 02:02 AM
 
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You can find more by clicking on "related articles" or putting together different word combinations.

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#17 of 27 Old 06-17-2006, 08:47 AM
 
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MT,

most linkies no workie.
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#18 of 27 Old 06-17-2006, 09:14 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara
Kris... um... are you constipated?
No. I really have no symptoms at all.

Thanks!
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#19 of 27 Old 06-17-2006, 01:12 PM
 
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I tried the last two links and they did it for me.
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#20 of 27 Old 06-17-2006, 05:32 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bestbirths
MT,

most linkies no workie.


You know what?

I spent TWO HOURS, putting in those numbers to pubmed, and watching them come up, and then cutting and pasting, so what the heck happened.

I will try again, this time using preview.

That makes me SO angry, as I checked every damned one first...

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#21 of 27 Old 06-17-2006, 05:35 PM
 
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Okay, its not my fault. There is something wrong with Pubmed. When they get themselves unconstipated the links should work.

We should prescribe them a massive dose of vitamin C and probiotics, and I'm glad its not me because to put all that together again, would not have thrilled me.

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#22 of 27 Old 06-17-2006, 05:38 PM
 
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Only the general search is working and it will come up with titles.

I'll show you what I mean.

Go to Pubmed.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...arch&DB=pubmed

Put in this title in the box.

The role of the intestinal microflora for the development of the immune system in early childhood.

It will retrieve five citations for you,

1: Bjorksten B. Related Articles, Links
Evidence of probiotics in prevention of allergy and asthma.
Curr Drug Targets Inflamm Allergy. 2005 Oct;4(5):599-604. Review.
PMID: 16248828 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
2: Bjorksten B. Related Articles, Links
Effects of intestinal microflora and the environment on the development of asthma and allergy.
Springer Semin Immunopathol. 2004 Feb;25(3-4):257-70. Epub 2003 Oct 24. Review.
PMID: 15007630 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
3: Ouwehand A, Isolauri E, Salminen S. Related Articles, Links
The role of the intestinal microflora for the development of the immune system in early childhood.
Eur J Nutr. 2002 Nov;41 Suppl 132-7. Review.
PMID: 12420114 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
4: Cross ML, Gill HS. Related Articles, Links
Can immunoregulatory lactic acid bacteria be used as dietary supplements to limit allergies?
Int Arch Allergy Immunol. 2001 Jun;125(2):112-9. Review.
PMID: 11435727 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
5: Bjorksten B, Naaber P, Sepp E, Mikelsaar M. Related Articles, Links
The intestinal microflora in allergic Estonian and Swedish 2-year-old children.
Clin Exp Allergy. 1999 Mar;29(3):342-6. Erratum in: Clin Exp Allergy 2000 Jul;30(7):1047.
PMID: 10202341 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

but if you try and click on any of them to read the abstract, you will get the same error message that you get when you click on mine.

So I can give you titles and you will know they are there, but asking to see abstracts results in computer conniptions in pubmed.

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#23 of 27 Old 06-17-2006, 05:42 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mom2owen1
No. I really have no symptoms at all.

Thanks!
No symptoms. What about other symptoms other than constipation? Did you go to the ob knowing you had a UTI?

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#24 of 27 Old 06-17-2006, 05:51 PM
 
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For now, these one should work, so read these first.


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#25 of 27 Old 06-22-2006, 06:23 PM
 
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A great 2 part article summarizing some current ASD treatment:

Autism, An Extreme Challenge to Integrative Medicine.
Part 1: The Knowledge Base
Quote:
Abstract
Autism, archetype of the autistic spectrum
disorders (ASD), is a neurodevelopmental
disorder characterized by socially aloof
behavior and impairment of language and
social interaction. Its prevalence has surged
in recent years. Advanced functional brain
imaging has confirmed pervasive neurologic
involvement. Parent involvement in autism
management has accelerated understanding
and treatment. Often accompanied by epilepsy,
cognitive deficits, or other neurologic
impairment, autism manifests in the first three
years of life and persists into adulthood. Its
etiopathology is poorly defined but likely
multifactorial with heritability playing a major
role. Prenatal toxic exposures (teratogens) are
consistent with autism spectrum
symptomatology. Frequent vaccinations with
live virus and toxic mercurial content
(thimerosal) are a plausible etiologic factor.
Autistic children frequently have abnormalities
of sulfoxidation and sulfation that compromise
liver detoxification, which may contribute to the
high body burden of xenobiotics frequently
found. Frequent copper-zinc imbalance implies
metallothionein impairment that could
compound the negative impact of sulfur
metabolism impairments on detoxification and
on intestinal lining integrity. Intestinal
hyperpermeability manifests in autistic children
as dysbiosis, food intolerances, and exorphin
(opioid) intoxication, most frequently from
casein and gluten. Immune system
abnormalities encompass derangement of
antibody production, skewing of T cell subsets,
aberrant cytokine profiles, and other
impairments consistent with chronic
inflammation and autoimmunity. Coagulation
abnormalities have been reported. Part 2 of this
review will attempt to consolidate progress in
integrative management of autism, aimed at
improving independence and lifespan for
people with the disorder.
(Altern Med Rev 2002;7(4):292-316)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=12197782
Autism, An Extreme Challenge to Integrative Medicine.
Part II: Medical Management

Quote:
Abstract
Autism and allied autistic spectrum disorders
(ASD) present myriad behavioral, clinical, and
biochemical abnormalities. Parental
participation, advanced testing protocols, and
eclectic treatment strategies have driven
progress toward cure. Behavioral modification
and structured education are beneficial but
insufficient. Dietary restrictions, including
removal of milk and other casein dairy
products, wheat and other gluten sources,
sugar, chocolate, preservatives, and food
coloring are beneficial and prerequisite to
benefit from other interventions. Individualized
IgG or IgE testing can identify other
troublesome foods but not non-immune
mediated food sensitivities. Gastrointestinal
improvement rests on controlling Candida and
other parasites, and using probiotic bacteria
and nutrients to correct dysbiosis and
decrease gut permeability. Detoxification of
mercury and other heavy metals by DMSA/
DMPS chelation can have marked benefit.
Documented sulfoxidation-sulfation inadequacies
call for sulfur-sulfhydryl repletion and
other liver p450 support. Many nutrient
supplements are beneficial and well tolerated,
including dimethylglycine (DMG) and a
combination of pyridoxine (vitamin B6) and
magnesium, both of which benefit roughly half
of ASD cases. Vitamins A, B3, C, and folic acid;
the minerals calcium and zinc; cod liver oil; and
digestive enzymes, all offer benefit. Secretin,
a triggering factor for digestion, is presently
under investigation. Immune therapies
(pentoxifyllin, intravenous immunoglobulin,
transfer factor, and colostrum) benefit selected
cases. Long-chain omega-3 fatty acids offer
great promise. Current pharmaceuticals fail to
benefit the primary symptoms and can have
marked adverse effects. Individualized, in depth
clinical and laboratory assessments and
integrative parent-physician-scientist cooperation
are the keys to successful ASD management.
(Altern Med Rev 2002;7(6):472-499)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=12495373
(full articles are obtained by clicking on gold button to the right)
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#26 of 27 Old 06-22-2006, 07:12 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara
No symptoms. What about other symptoms other than constipation? Did you go to the ob knowing you had a UTI?
i don't know why i didn't get a notice that there was a new response. sorry for the delay!

i went as a regular prenatal visit. they did the urine dip thing and said there were a higher then normal level of nitrates. asked if i had an infection, to which i replied no, since i have no symptoms. she said she felt better doing a culture anyway. a few days later i got a message saying it came back positive, call back with pharmacy info. i never called back. i happen to be switching docs and hospitals, so my current doc called the new midwife and had her call me.

she pretty much used scare tactics, such as high levels of bacteria cause miscarraige, etc.
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#27 of 27 Old 06-22-2006, 08:09 PM
 
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The links work now MT....
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