Catholic Church & Vaxing - Mothering Forums

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Old 07-25-2006, 07:40 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I am just curious on this and was wondering if anybody might know. What is the Catholic churches stance on vaxing? I'm not Catholic, but they seem to be very anti many things medical (IVF, stem cell reseach, etc.). Do they know several vax are made with aborted human fetal tissue? I asked a friend who is Catholic, he has no idea, and didn't know what was in his vax until I told him. I was just wondering because they get a lot of press when they take stances like this, and if they know about it, I would think it would have been in the media at some point.
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Old 07-25-2006, 08:18 PM
 
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I'm Catholic and was wondering the same thing. I asked our priest, but he wasn't much help, so I asked another lady who does all homebirth, doesn't vaccinate for multiple reasons (didn't know this til after I asked her) home schools, and teaches NFP, and is generally the authority in our parish on the "true" teachings of the Church-I say that because there are so many misconceptions about what the Church teaches ; and most are totally stupid, but I digress.

Anyhow, she said, that per her research, (and she's obsessive about it-not unlike myself), the vaccines that were propagated on fetal tissue weren't prohibited, because the baby had already been killed, and would have been, whether the vaccine would have been made from it or not, but she was uncertain as to whether she wanted to support that kind of industry at all. Therefore, that, along with the questionable benefits, pushed her to the non vax side.

She quoted a bunch of writings and such, but I didn't write it down and it was after Mass, so can't repeat them for you. And, what she said makes sense. The baby would have been aborted anyway, but why, when there are so many questions about the value of vax anyway, would a person want to encourage *that* industry? I was on the fence, but learning they made vax from aborted babies grossed me out-to the point I was very nearly sick to my stomach.

(BTW-I'm not interested in debate. Abortion is wrong. Period. You're entitled to your opinion, but we both must use the same facts. ) Ok Im off the soapbox now.)

I hope someone is able to come up with the actual writings on it-there was an article in the diocesan paper a while back, also-before I was pg so didn't pay much attn to it, darn it.

HTH-
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Old 07-25-2006, 08:22 PM
 
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I believe the official stance is that it's an individual decision.

-Angela
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Old 07-25-2006, 08:25 PM
 
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Old 07-25-2006, 09:03 PM
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I recall a woman on here whose religious exemption was not accepted by a Catholic school, so I would guess not....

PhDin' mama to dd (Oct. 2005)
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Old 07-25-2006, 10:50 PM
 
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The Church was presented with this issue, just a year or so ago; and totally waffled. :

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/sto...ns/0504240.htm

Also it is painfully obvious that the Vatican PTB are pro-vax, and absolutely believe all the pharma/media hype about the "saving power" of vaccines.

Ah well, even the (institution of the) Church isn't perfect - I'm Catholic, and I've known that for a long time.

Every baptized Christian is, or should be, someone with an actual (disturbing) experience, ... a close encounter, with God; someone who, as a result, becomes a disturbing presence to others. - Fr. Anthony J. Gittins, A Presence That Disturbs
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Old 07-25-2006, 10:55 PM
 
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unfortunately, the "official" stance is pro-vax.

The reasoning being that it is a greater sin to "endanger" the health of certain populations (newborns, pregnant women, people who have compromised immune systems, etc) by not being vaxxed and "spreading" the diseases, than it is to use vaccines with fetal cells in them, since the babies were already aborted decades ago, (presumably not by you personally), and therefore it's a done deal.

shockingly, i have heard of people having more problems getting catholic schools to accept exemptions that any others.

CPST
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Old 07-25-2006, 11:02 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laurel723
because the baby had already been killed, and would have been, whether the vaccine would have been made from it or not,
That may not necessarily be the case.

I read that the first baby (there are two)

Quote:
was aborted because the family felt they had too many children
and the second baby was

Quote:
aborted for "psychiatric reasons"
http://www.cogforlife.org/vaticanresponse.htm

I also have read somewhere else that at least one of those abortions was forced on the mother (using emotional/psychological means) by doctors who specifically wanted a fetus for vaccine production. I can't remember which one, though.

Every baptized Christian is, or should be, someone with an actual (disturbing) experience, ... a close encounter, with God; someone who, as a result, becomes a disturbing presence to others. - Fr. Anthony J. Gittins, A Presence That Disturbs
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Old 07-25-2006, 11:03 PM
 
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The Church really doesn't take an official stance on vaxing, though I suppose most would say that vaxing was necessary. The Church, however, renders no moral judgement against one who decides to vaccinate or not to vaccinate.

Regarding the vaccines derived from aborted fetal cells, there are differing theological opinions. Most theologians agree on the basic premise that by accepting a tainted vaccine, one is a material participant in the abortion used to procur the fetal cells used in the vaccine. It is after this point where theologians differ on whether accepting the tainted vaccine is morally permissable. One view says it is permissable to vaccinate, another says it is not. You decide. For me, no Catholic can in good conscience use a tainted vaccine. The argument that one can doesn't hold water for me.

Unfortunately, the Catholic bishops in the US have remained painfully quiet on the entire issue of vaccination. If I do recall correctly, however, I believe somewhere recently there was statement out of the Vatican decrying the tainted vaccines. Of course, it was all bark and no bite as it was soundly ignored by every Bishop in the US.

Here is more information on the topic include, I believe, an analysis of the various tainted vax arguments (*note: the following site is NOT anti-VAX, only anti-tainted vax)
www.cogforlife.org
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Old 07-25-2006, 11:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bobandjess99
shockingly, i have heard of people having more problems getting catholic schools to accept exemptions that any others.
I've heard the same thing.

Every baptized Christian is, or should be, someone with an actual (disturbing) experience, ... a close encounter, with God; someone who, as a result, becomes a disturbing presence to others. - Fr. Anthony J. Gittins, A Presence That Disturbs
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Old 07-25-2006, 11:21 PM
 
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http://poisonevercure.150m.com/abort...ontributes.htm

Quote:
One if the most highly misunderstood notions among moral theologians and ethicists is that the abortions involved were not done with the intention of creating vaccines. In fact, in response to President Bush’s decision on federal funding for embryonic stem cell research (ESCR), the USCCB highlights this point as follows:


...


It was the intent of the abortionist and the researcher to destroy these babies specifically for vaccine manufacturing. But first, the abortions had to be pre-arranged so the researchers were available to immediately preserve the tissues.

"In order to sustain 96% of the cells, the live tissue would need to be preserved within 5 minutes of the abortion"-Dr. C. Ward Kischer

Quote:
1964 Hayflick isolates and gives name to the WI-38 cell line derived from the lungs of a baby girl 3 months gestation.

"This fetus was chosen by Dr. Sven Gard, specifically for this purpose. Both parents are known, and unfortunately, for the story, they are married to each other, still alive and well, and living in Stockholm, presumably. The abortion was done because they felt they had too many children. There were no familial diseases in the history of either parents, and no history of cancer specifically in the families."

-G. Sven, S. Plotkin, K. McCarthy, Gamma Globulin Prophylaxis; Inactivated Rubella Virus; Production and Biological Control of Live Attenuated Rubella Virus Vaccines; Amer J Dis Child Vol 118 Aug 1969


Quote:
Preying on the fear that 20%-25% of pregnant women infected with Rubella pass it to their unborn children, possibly causing defects, doctors encouraged pregnant women to have their unborn children aborted during the 1964 epidemic. The first 26 aborted babies were unaffected. The live rubella virus was found in the 27th killed unborn baby.

"Explant cultures were made of the dissected organs of a particular fetus aborted because of rubella, the 27th in our series of fetuses aborted. This fetus was from a 25-year-old mother exposed to rubella 8 days after her last menstrual period. 16 days later she developed rubella. The fetus was surgically aborted 17 days after maternal illness and dissected immediately. Explants from several organs were cultured and successful cell growth was achieved from lung, skin, and kidney. It was then grown on WI-38,. The new vaccine was tested on orphans in Philadelphia"

-American Journal Diseases of Children; Virus Production and Biological Control of Live Attenuated Rubella Virus Vaccines, Vol. 118 Aug 1969; Attenuation Of RA273 Rubella Virus; Studies of Immunization With Living Rubella Virus; Arch J Dis Child vol 110 Oct 1965

Quote:
"The Fetus As Transplant Donor the Scientific, Social, and Ethical Perspectives," written by Peter McCullough, who is an immunologist at the University of Western Australia. It's published by the John Wiley Company in New York.

...


And this is directly from his book. Healthy human fetuses from 7 to 21 weeks from legal abortions were used. This is in Sweden.


...

50% of the time, the baby would be born alive, but that didn't stop them. They would just simply open up the abdomen of the baby with no anesthesia, and take out the liver and kidneys.

Every baptized Christian is, or should be, someone with an actual (disturbing) experience, ... a close encounter, with God; someone who, as a result, becomes a disturbing presence to others. - Fr. Anthony J. Gittins, A Presence That Disturbs
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Old 07-26-2006, 12:01 AM
 
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I recommend cogforlife.com too. Alot of good Catholic information. According to teh site, as a Catholic you have the right tobe religiously exempt from vaccines.

NOW, do not flame me. I have no links now and will search soemtime but I read (not online) sometiem ago that the Vatican related hospital used to perform abortions. This BLEW ME AWAY. But soon I learned how political the church is and the yare very involved in medicine and pharmas. To speak out against vaccines would be...well death for the church in some places. You know only those "whacky fringe" religions would not vaccinate...:


I have read alot about this and when my child was in Catholic school and I mentioned she would gt no further vaxes, they said no problem.


It is also interesting that Catholic hospitals (at least in the USA)perform routine Circumcision-which is CONDEMNED practice by the Vatican! Aee http://www.cirp.org/library/cultural/dietzen1/

Found some links:

http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=38498
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Old 07-26-2006, 12:11 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Laurel723
Anyhow, she said, that per her research, (and she's obsessive about it-not unlike myself), the vaccines that were propagated on fetal tissue weren't prohibited, because the baby had already been killed, and would have been, whether the vaccine would have been made from it or not, but she was uncertain as to whether she wanted to support that kind of industry at all.
That is the same info that I got too. I spoke with someone at the Catholic hospital in the area and the priest at our church. The priest agreed with me, but said that there was no official stand on vaxing, nor was there one on circumcision. He also agreed that there is zero biblical reason for Catholics to circ. None, nada, zippo. Funny thing was I recall him saying something about not creating controversey. How can you not laugh at that? :
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Old 07-26-2006, 04:12 AM
 
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Originally Posted by bobandjess99
shockingly, i have heard of people having more problems getting catholic schools to accept exemptions that any others.
I wanted to point out that you're generally not going to be able to get away with exempting a child from all vaccines, when only a few contain this ingredient and also unlikely to get an exemption for those few vaccines either, particularly in a state where you technically must be opposed to the practice of immunization in order to get the exemption.
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Old 07-26-2006, 10:43 AM
 
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The Church has no "official" stance on vaxing although the people that make up the church are largely pro-vax just like the rest of the world. Thankfully it is still up to the individual to decide whether they will vax or not.

A friend of mine did have to switch Catholic schools because the one close to them wouldn't accept their exemption to the aborted fetal cell vaccines. She homeschools now so she doesn't have to worry about it.

The Most Important Person on earth is a mother...She has built something more magnificent than any cathedral-a dwelling for an immortal soul, the tiny perfection of her baby's bodyâ¦-Cardinal Mindszenty
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Old 07-26-2006, 10:50 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skellbelle
Also it is painfully obvious that the Vatican PTB are pro-vax, and absolutely believe all the pharma/media hype about the "saving power" of vaccines.
Oh, I doubt they believe in the power of vaccination, but they do believe in $$$ when it comes to accepting money from Big Pharma in exchange for not having a stance on aborted fetal tissue vaccines.
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Old 07-26-2006, 11:08 AM
 
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Originally Posted by bebesho2

NOW, do not flame me. I have no links now and will search soemtime but I read (not online) sometiem ago that the Vatican related hospital used to perform abortions. This BLEW ME AWAY.
I'm not surprised. I have read articles about priests getting women/girls pregnant, and then obtaining abortions for them.

Every baptized Christian is, or should be, someone with an actual (disturbing) experience, ... a close encounter, with God; someone who, as a result, becomes a disturbing presence to others. - Fr. Anthony J. Gittins, A Presence That Disturbs
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Old 07-26-2006, 11:22 AM
 
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My understanding is that the Catholic Church takes a moral stand against using vaccinations created with fetal cells.
The church says that parents have a right to use these vaccinatons if they feel they are endangering their children by not using them.
They do think the pharm companys ave a moral obligation to come up with an alternative.

edited for nak typing errors
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Old 07-26-2006, 12:53 PM
 
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That is disgusting! You know what boggles my mind is people would be against cannabilism but would willingly inject human tissue into their bodies:
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Old 07-26-2006, 01:05 PM
 
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That is disgusting! You know what boggles my mind is people would be against cannabilism but would willingly inject human tissue into their bodies:
I'd like to know how anyone who claims to be a strict vegetarian or vegan could defend the use of any vaccine either.
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Old 07-26-2006, 01:20 PM
 
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skelbelle--your comment shouldn't suprise you, either. Evil people do evil, especially when they have the power--regardless of sacred vows, professional codes or federal law--and probably seek out "trusted" professions in which to do so.

that said, i am catholic and i believe it is morally imperative for the church to take a better stance--respect for life needs to include defenseless children who are taken advantage of for profit by the pharmacological industry. It is a sanctity of life issue.

nak
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Old 07-26-2006, 01:23 PM
 
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Originally Posted by tayndrewsmama
I'd like to know how anyone who claims to be a strict vegetarian or vegan could defend the use of any vaccine either.
not to get OT, but some are really just unaware of the ingredients and the animal testing involved. (my sister, who is now vegan and part of the animal rights club in college, got the meningitis vax because it is "recommended" for college and for studying abroad. she has no clue about what crap was injected into her.)
others (like some of our friends) believe what the drs tell them about how their kids will DIE without the vax and use fear to make parents think the benefits outweigh the risks. we have some vegan friends who couldnt believe we werent vaxing dd. one told dh to take dd to get her vaxes because "health comes before veganism" even after i told him the vaxes are animal tested and are made with cow and monkey cells. (and this is a guy who could debate animal rights all day and all night.)
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Old 07-26-2006, 01:25 PM
 
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What about PETA?
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Old 07-26-2006, 01:40 PM
 
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That's horrific (re the doctors forcing the abortions)-I'm glad you were able to find a published document-the Church's stance on vaxing is one of those things that is a little out of their jurisdiction-I think-I don't know that I'm phrasing that quite like I want to but I'm not going to worry about it now. As far as I'm concerned, its a little like them telling whether or not I can spank my kids-you know, they're responsible for providing guidelines on spiritual stuff, but not everything falls under that category. I quizzed Michelle on it to get her take because I respect her opinion without question-but now I think I'll have to look into the whole subject a little more. (All it's going to do is $*#@ me off, but oh well....)

One thing that's interesting to me is that no one ever wonders what the Mormon Church's stance on vaxing is, or what their history of molestation by their bishops is....but they don't hesitate to assume the worst when it comes to discussing the Catholic Church. Sad. Because they have (as per a good friend of mine, who is also a strictMormon) the same problems we do w/people of poor judgement/morals/etc. in places of power, they just don't get the press. Food for thought, that's all. I'm not trying to start a war (or even a minor skirmish!) But that's what happens anytime you have people in charge of anything-it becomes an imperfect system. Know it, deal with it, and do the best you can, right? (Or you can bang your head against the wall, as I am prone to do on occasion...!)
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Old 07-26-2006, 01:49 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laurel723
One thing that's interesting to me is that no one ever wonders what the Mormon Church's stance on vaxing is, or what their history of molestation by their bishops is....but they don't hesitate to assume the worst when it comes to discussing the Catholic Church. Sad. Because they have (as per a good friend of mine, who is also a strictMormon) the same problems we do w/people of poor judgement/morals/etc. in places of power, they just don't get the press. Food for thought, that's all. I'm not trying to start a war (or even a minor skirmish!) But that's what happens anytime you have people in charge of anything-it becomes an imperfect system. Know it, deal with it, and do the best you can, right? (Or you can bang your head against the wall, as I am prone to do on occasion...!)
I was raised a Jehovah's Witness (although I am now disassociated with the church) and at one point they had an offical stance against vaccinations along with organ transplants and blood transfusions. They ended up allowing vaccinations and organ transplants but still hold fast to the blood transfusion rule. I am going to see if I can dig up why they changed.
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Old 07-26-2006, 01:51 PM
 
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others (like some of our friends) believe what the drs tell them about how their kids will DIE without the vax and use fear to make parents think the benefits outweigh the risks.
And the funny thing is, many Docs will claim the same thing if you do not feed your child dairy or meat!

IMO, the reason the Catholi church is questioned more than Mormon or most others is their POWER. Worldwide they are a major political and spiritual power. Any position of power-teacher, Priest, Minister, etc.-will attract both good and bad people. "bad" people want that power and absolute trust-kwim? What better place to get people do whatever you say with little or no thought? Sad btu true through out the ages!

So if Catholics said NO to vaccines-omg-it would be something beyond major!

Heck remember you used to be able to BUY your way out of hell and/or pergatory? Power and blind trust. And DID you know the Catholic church no longer teaches an existance of pergatory? That is very OT but interesting at that!
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Old 07-26-2006, 03:03 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by bebesho2
So if Catholics said NO to vaccines-omg-it would be something beyond major!
That's exactly my point. It would bring a lot of light/press to the vax issues if the Catholic Church was against it. It's funny how things are selectively applied. Stem cell research, NO WAY; abortions, NEVER; vax, well, yeah, i guess it's okay for now. :

I know all religions have their hypocrisies, but this one is beyond me from a church that seems to stand so firm on many other “moral” issues. It sure would be nice to have some weight on the other side of the vax issue. I think some vaccines *can* be useful and have a place, but there seems to be no pressure or little influence to make them more safe, with less questionable ingredients, and to actually study and research the negative effects they have on people. I also resent the fact that we don't have much choice in the matter. Personally, I would selectively vax if I could, but I live in an all or nothing state. If they got enough press about it, they could be forced to improve things, or maybe that's just my wishful thinking???
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Old 07-26-2006, 03:22 PM
 
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So far this is all I can find from PETA
http://www.askcarla.com/answers.asp?...ndanswerID=246
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Old 07-26-2006, 03:32 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bebesho2
And DID you know the Catholic church no longer teaches an existance of pergatory? That is very OT but interesting at that!
Entirely untrue! YIKES! Please be careful what you say, I assume that you mean LIMBO, not purgatory, HUGE difference there.

Children of God for Life's site will give all of the info needed for the OP's question.

:Patty :fireman Catholic, intactalactivist, co-sleeping, GDing, HSing, no-vax Mama to .........................:..........hale:
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Old 07-26-2006, 03:39 PM
 
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RE: PETA.... I "asked Carla" this:

Quote:
What is Peta's stance on vaccines (for humans)?Most contain animal DNA, I am surprised PETA has not taken a stance or does not have a statement regarding this.
Quote:
Entirely untrue! YIKES! Please be careful what you say, I assume that you mean LIMBO, not purgatory, HUGE difference there.
I will go find the statement, give me time I am at work. It came up a few years back when I was discussing Catholic issues with my now deceased Dad (Who was Catholic, I am NOW no longer practicing.) If I am wrong or it has changed, I do apologize...
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