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#1 of 28 Old 08-27-2006, 10:24 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I was speaking with some ladies and one mom was talking about her child's terrible reaction to the CP vax.

She said she doesn't really like it but her Dr said she should. She doesn't know what to do.

I said that my son is unvaxxed and said "I'd get into the reasons why I don't but it doesn't sound like you all want to hear it"

2 people said that yes they do want to know (surprising in itself)

So I shared this "why I don't vax" --it's something I wrote ages ago and could probably polish a bit.

**Please keep in mind this is OUR decision. I am sharing because I was asked to.
I also want you to know this is only the very tiniest tip of the iceberg--there is so many more resources, so many more things I learned but I don’t want to overwhelm you.

None of this reading/studying/deciding is fun--much of you turns your stomach and gives a headache. But I slugged through it and at times, I still pick up the research.
Here is a post I wrote many years ago with an add on at the end.

If you have questions I will answer to the best of my ability. If you say something I know to be false, I will challenge you with correct information, but I will not argue. I ask you to not read if you don’t want to know, and to respect my decision just as I’ve not said anything about anyone’s mothering skills that makes opposite decisions as us.

**and I do know that many people have immune compromised children and that is a different story**


This is something I took an entire year researching and praying and crying over--I 1st heard about the vaccine debate when I was a child and thought it was silly--why would they recommend we do something that could be harmful?

Then in birth class the teacher showed us a video from the news program 20/20 about Hep B vaccine and it's side effects--so I decided to not do that one at birth and start researching. Newborns receive this at birth and it is a sexually transmitted disease

Well, I honestly had no idea and was leaning toward vaccinating our son. He was in the NICU for 5 days and on his discharge the NICU nurse said "Oh, he needs his Hep B shot" I told her we decided to wait and she said with a blank look "well it's important" I asked her why and she said "Well when he's a teenager and having sex and doing drugs he won't want to come in for a shot" that was the expert answer and it did not satisfy me--if she had a real answer for me I may have made a totally different decision. But I decided if that was the best official answer I should look into it a bit more.

I started reading and believe me it's overwhelming but I had committed to waiting to decide until my husband and I were both comfortable--so we delayed. I started researching with the question Why should I? not why shouldn't I.

I read and read and read--both pro and con, the inserts in the vaccine packages (boring and enlightening at the same time)--websites, medical studies, books.

I was all at once terrified of not vaccinating, terrified of vaccinating, terrified of the diseases, and I asked God (one of the crying over the decisions) to help me make the right choice for us. God has not given us the spirit of fear but of power and of love and of a sound mind (this fear applies to the diseases too--we shouldn't be afraid of them)

I read websites such as
www.vaccinationnews.com
www.*********
www.909shot.com





I read books such as
A shot in the Dark by Harris Coulter
Vaccines are they really safe and effective by Neil ******
Vaccination Deception and tragedy by Michael Dye (Christian perspective)
How to raise a Healthy child in spite of your Dr by Robert Mendelsohn MD
Let's Have Healthy Children by Adelle Davis
Prescription for Nutritional Healing (reference book)
and
Then I started reading about the diseases and reading old medical books about how mildly they perceived almost every disease that there is currently a vaccine for--do we all remember when chicken pox vaccine came out? I remember--I worked at a daycare and we all howled with laughter about them trying to make chicken pox a bad thing--now mothers are terrified of it.
My grandmother is 83 and wasn't vaccinated for any of this and is perfectly healthy. They had all the diseases and aren't terrified of any of them.

I read too about the vaccines--how they're made, what is in them they do--how many new ones are used since I was a child, how many new ones are in the works--I’m not kidding you they are working on a vaccine for tooth decay, stop smoking, etc--if we'll buy them they'll come up with them. How many are used at one visit!
I read about how autism and Alzheimer’s mirror the symptoms of mercury poisoning and how new vaccines are claimed to be mercury free--the word thimeresol is mercury and they removed enough that it's just under the amount that has to be claimed--so it's in there but just a hair under the amount that would have to be listed. I read about aborted fetal tissue, about the monkey tissue, about so many ingredients that we wouldn't want to have to think about--being injected into our bloodstream going straight to our cells and brains.

I read about the money --

My point is I read about all this from both sides--not just anti vax and when I read the pro vax side dismissing these things and laughing about parents making things up and saying that children dying from vaccines is for the good of all I couldn't stomach it.

Then I started reading the claims the vaccines make but when I read the small print on the insert they were far different. For example Prevnar is touted as the miracle vaccine for ear infections and when you read the small print it says that it may prevent up to 7% of ear infections --so when a child gets one ever other month (6 per year )it will help that child not get .42 of one ear infection--it also has as a side effect pneumonia and ear infections!



Then I started learning about how to treat these diseases with nutrition to build the immune system in the 1st place and how to treat them if they occur--I have files the size of Texas
This lead to learning about natural foods, healthy recipes, avoiding processed foods, natural medicine, non toxic cleaning etc but keep in mind my child is almost 3 and it has been non stop and one thing leads to another--I wasn't at all into any of this before but as I read and learned things seemed to make so much sense and I've made changes very gradually and only if I'm convinced.

This link is all the States and their exemption info--for example in all states there are legal (!) exemptions to vaccines. That means your child is not required to be vaccinated to enter school--it's as simple as signing a piece of paper that says you are taking your legal exemptions. And you're on your merry way (we're home schooling anyway for other reasons so no http://www.access1.net/via/STATES/allstates.htm


My medical establishment story in this matter is a whole nother story--I was lied to, threatened, bullied, guilt tripped etc--when I asked for the vaccine inserts at PJ's 1st visit the Dr rolled her eyes at me (I should have rolled them back to her!) (jk) and acted like she wouldn't get them ''she laughed and shrugged her shoulders and acted condescending to me "Oh you don't want to read all that " I said yes I did and she acted like I was stupid and wasting her time but got them for me--then the paper she gave about how safe vaccines are was condescending and hardly any info--but on there I read about the government fund for vaccine damaged children (I was still brand new at this at this point) --I had to wonder how many children would have been damaged for the government to set up a fund--they wouldn't do that for a "one in a million" kid as the Dr's claim--You can search Vaers http://www.medalerts.org/vaersdb/index.html and read what Dr’s know is only 10% of known vaccine reactions they admit that 90% go unreported.

Well, long!!! story shorter (not short cause this is a long post) when I told the ped I would take the legal exemption she was so nasty to me. I found a different Dr!--much more to the story but the lying, bullying etc had gone on at every visit.

My son will be 3 in Nov and he has never had so much as one ear infection--he has had colds and a touch of flu when we did--but he has bounced back quickly--I am not afraid of him getting chicken pox (I wish he would--matter of fact he was exposed to his cousin and didn't get them--so no vaccine does not equal disease just as vaccine doesn't equal protection) not afraid of measles, mumps, tetanus even.

I have total peace in our decision --I rarely even think about it anymore--It doesn't bother me to stand up for my decision either. I would like to say that I in absolutely no way think that my decision is the Christian decision to make--just the one God led us to for our
Hth a bit and I'd be happy to email anyone info about a vaccine list I'm on and receive medical info and vaccine info every day.
_________________


**PJ is now almost 6 and still never one ear infection. When he gets ill with things he recovers very quickly.

Here is a book I read last summer--really you should read it even if you’re firmly convinced in vaccines.
It has evidence that the Gov knew decades ago that vaccines were harming children. It documents conversations by FDA officials, CDC officials, etc.

Evidence of Harm by David Kirby (here it is on Amazon http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listi...857653?ie=UTF8 )


Then in this book The Virus and the Vaccine http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listi...857653?ie=UTF8

I learned how polio vax is made.


They inject monkeys with polio. When they are about dead from the disease, they split the monkey up the back, rip out it’s kidneys, put it in a “blender” with a cocktail of toxic chemicals and let this mash ferment.

Then they draw off parts of it add more toxic chemicals and put them in vaccines-- which go inside our babies.

Vaccines have atrocious chemicals in them. Then there are some (chicken pox and MMR) which use aborted fetal tissue and cells-- “human diploid cells” That is a problem to me for probably obvious reasons.

Here is a link where you can see some ingredients--your Dr is required to give you the package inserts if you ask.
http://www.vaccination.inoz.com/ingredie.html
Here is the CDC’s own list
http://www.cdc.gov/nip/publications/...nt-table-2.pdf


When educated Dr’s speak out about concerns they are treated terribly--why? Why can’t people ask questions? Why is it so threatening to think for oneself and want to know?

Even IF I choose to vaccinate I would want to know.


I read about Dr’s that worried about vaccines.

Here are tons of quotes--take your pick
http://www.*********/vaccine/quotes3.html

Some on the cancer causing monkey viruses in polio vax
http://www.*********/v/sv40_q.html




Here is something to consider
You don't compare chances of contracting the disease to being harmed by the vax - you compare chances of being harmed by the disease vs. being harmed by the vax. And that risk/benefit analysis favors not vaccinating


One of them wrote this back to me
I have been wanting to get to the bottom of this vaccine issue but I have felt torn about it in the past. On the one hand, I know what I've read, on the other hand, I love my kid's doctor and I trust her. So, I knew it was up to me to finally make a decision about it. Thanks to you and your links, we've finally decided to stop doing vaccines. There's a myriad of moral issues all bound up in those shots that I do not support. Big Hug Thank you for braving this issue and putting it out there. I know not everyone will agree or take the time to read the links, but I, for one, am very very thankful!



wow! I guess my point is you never know when you share and you'll find the person that's ready to hear! I think outside of my little sister this is the 1st person that said they wanted to stop!
woo hoo!
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#2 of 28 Old 08-27-2006, 10:31 PM
 
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Awesome! It's great when people pay attention and want to hear alternate perspectives on an issue as opposed to just going with "convention"
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#3 of 28 Old 08-27-2006, 10:53 PM
 
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That is a fantastic post! Really! I had tears in my eyes when I read the one mother's response. The vax issue is so close to my heart and is really one of my passions. I on the other hand am not nearly as eloquent at writing or spitting back out all of the knowledge I have in my head. Your post was really great and informative. Do you mind if I borrow it? I would love to send to a couple of relatives who keep asking me questions.

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#4 of 28 Old 08-27-2006, 11:07 PM - Thread Starter
 
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you go right ahead

I swiped that last sentence from the forum here last night
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#5 of 28 Old 08-28-2006, 04:38 AM
 
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My story is that I did the medical stuff first, and then God gave me a swift kick up the backside, and said "Oi you, what's this about not asking me first?" .

"Now you sit down, and listen to me."

He took me through a very complicated Bible study, which was interspersed with argumentative nit pickings by me.

I disagree with you only about one thing PJ'smomma. God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, and I don't believe that in the matter of his creation he would say one thing to one person and something completely different to another. I do believe that most Christian compartmentalise their lives, and think "I'll let God have this part, and the doctor has this part, the school has this part, and I'll have that part." That's not the way God works in my opinion.

In my experience the majority of Christians never ask God what he has to say about vaccines. They assume because of Jungle doctor stories, and the 'great' doctors of history, that doctor's are God's chosen vessel. Interesting then, that not once in the New Testament is a doctor talked about, and the woman who was bleeding, and had touched Jesus's hem had been to every doctor in the country to no avail. And what about Luke?

In terms of the full scriptures about healing that I had to do at the time, including recent additions and further arguments with the Boss in the last few months , its being typed up in a word document. If anyone wants it, I can post it when its ready.

In the meantime, not long after that kick up the rear end, I was asked to write something for a newspaper, and they wanted a two part article on vaccination from a Christian perspective.

This is what I wrote:



Toorak Time,
Folio 691,
17th August 1988.

A Christian view point.
Part one.

For some time now, Christian people have asked me to write something on immunisation from a Christian perspective, and for a long time, I have put the idea aside.

How can I do this? How can I write something on a Christian perspective? If there was “A Christian Perspective” then we would not have lots of different denominations.

Some Christians do not believe that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit has any other place than after Jesus left his followers in the upper room.

“Healing” was for another age… God now uses doctors to whom he has given his divine knowledge, and “will” to improve our world today.

Much of what I feel is important, will leave other Christians cold.

Before we look at the issue of immunisation, we need to ask some questions in order to establish some sort of base-line.

1)Are there areas of life where some things are strictly SECULAR, and where others are SPIRITUAL?

2)Or is “God supposed to be in control of ALL areas of our lives?

3)Am I (are you) prepared to accept that a decision on immunisation (or not) could be made on a Christian philosophy?

4)Am I (are you) prepared to accept the cost of being different or of choosing a minority actions? How would your convictions fare if immunisation was made compulsory by law?

Jesus said that we must be prepared to sit down, and count the cost of following Him, and that those who did not, were not worthy of being His followers.

Not exactly the precise words, but this context is relevant in this issue, because we have found that our decision not to immunise our children is often seen as a threat to the Christian majority who have their children immunised.

I’m not sure why this should be so – but the usual response is one of disbelief, concealed anger and then the demand to know why?

Perhaps we need to ask ourselves some more questions

5)Why did our parents have us immunised? Because the doctors said so?

6)Why are we not immunising our children (Rebellion?)

INFORMED CHOICE AND INFORMED REASON

The interesting thing is that people who feel threatened about an informed choice NOT to immunise, cannot usually give INFORMED reasons as to why they immunised their children.

It is as if there is only the need to justify a minority position, not a majority position. It is my belief that any decision on the issue of immunisation mush be an informed decision, but more importantly for me, does it fit in with what God wants for our children?

I cannot tell you want to do; all I can do, is set before you the train of thoughts that led to our SPIRITUAL reasons not to immunise.

There were MEDICAL ones, but that is not the issue here, and so what follows is based on my personal faith and belief.

A CHRISTIAN DOCTOR’S MESSAGE.

We don’t often hear anything about some of the great Christian doctors’ views on subjects lime immunisation, but this weekend, to my surprise, we were listening to a tape by Harry Greenwood called “There is no condemnation in Christ.”, and right at the start of side two, he said this:

Quote:
“Dr Lake went to a country which was crippled with disease (Africa) and a certain virus wiped out a whole village, and he volunteered to help bury this village… and the doctors wanted to stick a few needles in him; vaccinate him against this, that and the other, because they didn’t yet know what it was that killed the village. But he wouldn’t be needled. At least he did one thing for them. He showed them the point, and this is what happened.

He said to them: “The law of the Spirit of life which is in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death”, and then he said to the (they had set up a temporary laboratory) “Would you like to experiment?” and they said “yes”, so they got a slide and took a slide of the germs of one of the couple that had died, and they put it under the microscope, and it was live with bacteria crawling around, and they said “There you see? Its alive!!!” and he said “The moment it comes in contact with my hand, it’ll die.”

And sure enough, the moment they brought the slide and germs in contact with his hand, they died immediately. He said “the law of the Spirit of life which is in Christ Jesus has set me from the law of sin and death”

“Do you realise folks, that we don’t have to die of disease? “We can die in a perfectly healthy body”
How does this relate to us as Christians and especially as parents who may NOT have made a personal decision (to accept Jesus).

The issue presently in front of us is the Hepatitis B vaccination. There are many excellent medical reasons why all available vaccines should be VERY carefully considered(and I believe rejected) but to use medical reasons in a Christian perspective is a red herring. If I decide solely on medical grounds, then I have still not go a CHRISTIAN commitment on the topic.

When I was first faced with this issue, I was torn to “bits”. I knew that there were good reasons why I shouldn’t do it, and I felt that God was telling me not to, but the thought kept coming through my head:

“But what if my child does get sick? He might die! I could never forgive myself… what IF God lets me down?”

I could have made a decision based on my unbelief in God’s promises. After all, maybe they aren’t for today??

And like all of us, I am prone to a disease known as “maternal distress” which can see me flying off to the doctor, but one day, it really hit me that if we as parents can have PARENTAL DISTRESS, and feel so keenly the pain of our children, or that of a decision to make on their behalf, then how much MORE so, does our Heavenly Father feel the pain for us PARENTS who are his children?

Might he not also feel the pain that we feel, and want to help us? I felt that God was saying to me, that he also felt pain at my inability to go to him, as a father, and talk to him about it.

“And if even sinful persons like yourself give children what they need, don’t you realise that your heavenly Father will do at least as much, and give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him”? (Luke 11:13)

Yes, but what has the Holy Spirit got to do with Healing? – and then I realised that because the Holy Spirit is God, and Holy Spirit is “the law of the Spirit of life which is IN Christ Jesus” that with the Holy Spirit in us, we are IMMUNE!

This was a concept that was quite foreign to me, because normally when we are sick, we “go down the road to the doctor’, not talk to the Holy Spirit and ask and BELIEVE that He can stop illness in its tracks.

I also had to face the fact that I did (and still do sometimes) EXPECT to get ill, and EXPECT that it will run a certain symptom course and time-lag. I also had this nag that really… could God jump in there and zap the bugs dead??

And if I BELIEVE that the scriptures are the inspired word of God, and relevant for me today, then what do I make of these words?

Quote:
”And Jesus went about all Gallilee, teaching in their synagogues and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing ALL manner of sickness and ALL manner f disease amongst the people.” (Matthew 4:23 … 9:35 almost identical)
Ah… but that was Jesus, wasn’t it???

Quote:
And when he called his twelve disciples to him, he gave them power against unclean spirits to case them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.” (Matt 10:1 and also Luke 9:1)
Okay, so Jesus did it, and his disciples did it, but is “it” for us today? For me? And what about sin? And then I read:
Quote:
”He personally bore our sins in His (own) body to the tree (as to an alter and offered Himself on it) that we might die (cease to exist) to sin, and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been leaded” (1 Peter 2:24)
Ah, but that is “been”…. Not “Are…”….
Quote:
But he was wounded and bruised for our sins. He was chastised that we might have peace; he was lashed, and … by his striped we are healed.” (Isaiah 53:5)
Its all very well to look at the theory, but it took a long time for me to realise that with Christ IN us, with the Spirit of life IN us, if we EXPECT him to keep us in good health, then he will.

I often say “Tell me that when I’ve got a cold”, but if I think about it, I can usually track down the reason of the cold to some factor. Over wok, being senseless and getting cold, or something like that, when if I had listened to my inside voice and obeyed it, I probably would not have a cold.

So theoretically we know that Jesus can heal ALL diseases, so did his disciples, and since we have been told that “greater things than these will you do” we should be able to too.

But we have a situation now, where the experts are saying that a new scourge, Hepatitis B, is sweeping the country, and can result in death, kidney complications, chronic ill health, and if you are a carrier, you can die, very painfully, of liver cancer. And instantly, you (I) can have this problem of:

“What if they are right – help – FEAR – PARENTAL DISTRESS!” And then we can have a little discussion:

God “Why do you FEAR this disease?”

Me: “Because they say that it can do this, this and this..”

God “But didn’t give you a spirit of FEAR, but of POWER, and of LOVE and of SOUND MIND?”

Me;…”Um… but…. Okay… can you prevent all this??”

God: "Yeah, and I can also heal if you get it. After all, you've had Hepatitis B twice and you didn't die did you?"

I could go on in dialogue, but since this happened over a period of time it might be better to revert to scripture. My problem was that I doubted that we were made right. And to this, I found the scriptures said the following: [quote]So God created man in His OWN image, … male and female created he them.” (Genesis 1:27)

(A Personal Testimony, Part Two

Toorak Times, Folio 692,
September 14th, 1988.)

.... Now I’m in trouble… does God have a vaccine deficiency too?

If Jesus were to have been born in 1988, would God direct Mary to have Hep B at Day one, B.C.G. at day two, Diphtheria, Whooping Cough, Tetanus Polio and Hep B at 6 weeks, etc, etc, just to make SURE Jesus MADE it to the cross?

Quote:
As for God, his way is perfect, the word of the Lord is tried, he is a buckler to all those that trust in him.” (Psalms 18:20)

“As for God, his way is perfect, the word of the Lord is True, He shields all who hide behind him”(He that is a shield to all them that TRUST IN Him – Modern language – (2 Sam 22:31
If I started to accept that if I hid behind Him and trusted Him then he would be true to his word, and that no only could I TRUST IN him, but that because we are entrusted to bring up our children in His way, that they, by proxy, are included in that trust.

The doubts did not all go.

I thought about the idea that what IF I did get a disease, or my child did get a disease… and this is what he told me.

He told me, that he, the expert, had designed an immune system that, given the chance, the belief and the faith does what it’s supposed to do:

Quote:
You (God) possessed my inward parts and wove me in my mother’s womb, I praise you, because I have been fearfully and wonderfully made. Marvellous is your workmanship, as my soul is well aware. My bones were not hidden from you, when I was made in secrecy, and intricately fashioned in utter seclusion.

“Your eyes saw my unformed substance, and in your book all was recorded and prepared day by day. When as yet none of them had being….”(Psalm 139:13-16 )
It blew my mind. God’s eyes watched my child’s bones in the womb, and he personally designed my child’s immune system, an immune system which can do the job.

I realised that I had been brought up with the expectation that it would only work with the aid of man’s wisdom, and that if man’s wisdom was not used, then I WOULD DIE

But that was not what the scripture said.

I also had a problem with the fact that there is so much disease in the world today, and has been in the past, and God led me to Deuteronomy 28 which talks a lot about health and sickness in the old “covenant” and that then, if they did not obey His word, then their punishment would be sickness, amongst other things.

My belief is not so much that if we do something wrong we will get sick – though I believe that God can allow sickness for good purposes – but more that because Jesus died for me, and by his stripes we are healed, that much of my “sickness’ is the result of UNBELIEF – and expectation that because everyone else gets sick, I should get sick to.

And as for worshipping other Gods, which was listed in the old testament as a cause of sickness, there have been cases where I have trusted in the doctor more than God, and the result has been that I have been much sicker as a result from a toxic reaction to the medicine!

I am in the fortunate position now, that I am allergic to many drugs, and the medical profession can do little for me, - if anything.

But, Praise the Lord, I have been in better health since then, than any time before…

WHOSE TEACHING IS RIGHT? God’s or man’s?

Even in the old Testament, death was not always a foregone conclusion. God has a plan for us, just as he did with Jesus. Our days are numbered, and it is His decision, what, when and where we will die.

Hezekiah became deathly sick, and Isaiah went to him to tell him he would die. Hezekiah pleaded with God, and broke down and cried, so God spoke to Isaiah again, and told him that he had decided to heal him, and that if he boiled up some gifs, and made them into a mash and put them on the boil, Hezekiah would be all right. And Hezekiah recovered, and God added 15 years to his life.

As a child, I was taught that immunisation was essential. That there was no other way. As a result, I was tied into the Medical system very early, and looked to them for the answers.

But…. What is going go happen in the future? I believe that there will come a time when Christians will not have access to modern medicine, and that if… I…. Do…. Not.. decondition myself now, while I have the choice, and instil in our children that Jesus is the greatest healer in the world, when times get touch, and I really have to believe that He will supply all my needs… I may not have the belief I need.

At the moment, I feel that I could trust Him. But as many people have said: “You have not been put to the test. Your children have never been really sick. What would you do?”

( Since this was written, we have indeed been put to the test, and so far, God has not failed us….)

It is not an issue I am going to think about because in response I would have to ask another question:

“Why have our children never been really sick?”

We don’t EXPECT them to get really sick, and right now, I am not expecting them to in the future.

WE need to re-examine, not only our attitudes to sickness, but also the attitude that says that by our own effects, we can, or should, try to live a long life.

But that I mean that while I can assist God by making sure that the Temple of the Holy Spirit is a fit place to reside, I should look forward to death as a promise of BETTER things to come…

We have been talking together about this issue, in the context of Easter, and how death is exactly what we as Christians should be looking forward to in a sense. And that we as a family should teach our children about death, in a natural day-to-day context, and plan each day with that in mind, because non of us knows our appointed hour.

We have resolved, not only to do the planning of what we want done (the practical things) after our death, but also to instil in the children a joy – that in death, sin was conquered, and that GOD is in CONTROL.

In a world which is rapidly falling apart, our children need to know, to believe, and to understand that God is in control, not us, our government, or our doctors, but we seem to have avoided the subject of death with our children.

Not consciously, but just “skirted” around it, as if it is something we shouldn’t talk about, and we intend to put that right.

And no doubt there are a whole host of other conditioned reflexes that God will put his finger on for myself and my husband to re-evaluate.

Satan is a nagger you know. Even as I write this, in the back of my mind is the nag that now I have written this, my children will get really sick to prove that I’m a hypocrite.

Satan might just love that as an outcome, but I cannot accept that, because Jesus has won the victory, and all I have to do is stand in the place of that victory – the cross – and take that Life to myself.

As an heir to the Kingdom, as brothers and sisters in Christ, we are surely entitled to the contents of the kingdom.

When you inherit someone’s title, you take claim to the rights and powers that go with it.

God has given us a journey, and he gives us the faith to do it at the time.

I do not know how I will manage, because God has only given me the faith to live moment by moment. Sufficient is the evil of the day thereof.

So, for me to vaccinate our children, would mean in effect, that I had told God, that he did not design my child’s immune system properly, that the doctor down the road can do what God should have done in the first place. That God cannot prevent disease, or heal it, and that God cannot supply all our needs, and that His plan for us needs every man-made help it can get in this bug-ridden world.

For me, that would then mean a denial of all that I believe he has revealed to me from His Word.

This is my journey, and my belief. It cannot be “yours” just because you have read this.

Your beliefs can only come to you from God, and I trust that He will give you direction in your lives and lead you to your own special, personal belief that is right for your family

God has given us the Holy Spirit who will lead us into all truth, if we so ask. And we believe that in that context, that you best personal and family advisor is that Heavenly Father who cares for us MORE then WE care for our children.

Yours, In Christ,



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Of course He has progressed me down that road, but that's another story.

“I want to sell drugs to everyone. I want to sell drugs to healthy people. I want drugs to sell like chewing gum.” former Merck CEO, Henry Gadsden

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#6 of 28 Old 08-28-2006, 04:52 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara
My story is that I did the medical stuff first, and then God gave me a swift kick up the backside, and said "Oi you, what's this about not asking me first?" . [snip]
Mom! That was wonderful! More more more!: : :
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#7 of 28 Old 08-28-2006, 05:08 AM
 
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Thank you for posting this, MT!!! I'm going to send the link to your post to my mom She still has her doubts, I think, about us not vaxing dd... but she's coming around!

And to the OP - wonderful job! I cannot personally go to the mainstream boards (I would go insane), and I respect you so much for going there and helping the mamas there!

love and peace.

mama to two girls and due in November!
: Circumcision can never be undone :
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#8 of 28 Old 08-28-2006, 05:21 AM
 
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WHOA! Incredible information in both the OP and MT's posts.

Tina ~ SAHcarrot.gif- head Mama to - 

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#9 of 28 Old 08-28-2006, 05:45 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara
So, for me to vaccinate our children, would mean in effect, that I had told God, that he did not design my child’s immune system properly, that the doctor down the road can do what God should have done in the first place. That God cannot prevent disease, or heal it, and that God cannot supply all our needs, and that His plan for us needs every man-made help it can get in this bug-ridden world.
I think your post was excellent and states mostly what I believe as well, although I wanted to ask you...do you use doctors for any sicknesses? I am only curious, so I hope you don't mind me prying. Do you use abx. at any given time or do you leave all healing solely up to God, including surgeries and such? I struggle with this because I believe God can and does and will heal but I don't feel that it is black and white or all or nothing. Does that make sense? Anyway, I am interested in what you believe about doctors, medicines etc as a whole.

ETA: both of my dc are unvaxxed

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Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara
Of course He has progressed me down that road, but that's another story.

I hear ya.
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#12 of 28 Old 08-28-2006, 09:39 AM
 
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I believe that God allows illness in some of his followers for his glory. Take Job for instance, he didn't have any lack of faith, yet God allowed him to suffer horribly, and have the least compassionate friends imaginable. I think I remember one of his friends saying (paraphrased-haven't read the book in years) "what sin had he done?" or to "examine his heart for hidden sin and give up his pride and denial about it". What a lovely friend to have in a time of need. Hey, with those kinds of friends, who needs enemies?

Anyone who has read the Bible knows that Job was a man who feared God and avoided evil...God was allowing his suffering to test his faith.

Imagine how offensive it was for me, fifteen years ago when my husband who was a man of God was disabled, my son was disabled too and unable to attend a daycare. I went work at sears to sell siding and cabinet refacing only to have a coworker say "they wouldn't be sick if we would only have enough faith". I don't believe my son or husband were sick from any lack of faith. I quit my job to take care of both of them and went on welfare, because the two of them needed a fulltime caregiver. My husband was injured on the job by printing chemicals, he was not injured by a lack of faith.
Vaccine injury is caused by vaccine injury, not lack of faith. Cancer, caused by carcinogens, not lack of faith....I could go on and on. I don't think as Christians we need to leave our logic at the door when it comes to basic health matters!

Even now, with our son being an athiest, I do not believe that to be from a lack of faith. (ha-pun intended.) He says his reason for becoming an athiest is from a direct result of contact with people in the church and their lack of compassion. So....ya....

I think the lack of faith doctrine has been for our family hurtful and offensive....
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#13 of 28 Old 08-28-2006, 09:57 AM
 
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excellent posts
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#14 of 28 Old 08-28-2006, 10:48 AM
 
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great thread! thanks!
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#15 of 28 Old 08-28-2006, 11:28 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bestbirths
I believe that God allows illness in some of his followers for his glory. Take Job for instance, he didn't have any lack of faith, yet God allowed him to suffer horribly, and have the least compassionate friends imaginable. I think I remember one of his friends saying (paraphrased-haven't read the book in years) "what sin had he done?" or to "examine his heart for hidden sin and give up his pride and denial about it". What a lovely friend to have in a time of need. Hey, with those kinds of friends, who needs enemies?

Anyone who has read the Bible knows that Job was a man who feared God and avoided evil...God was allowing his suffering to test his faith.

Imagine how offensive it was for me, fifteen years ago when my husband who was a man of God was disabled, my son was disabled too and unable to attend a daycare. I went work at sears to sell siding and cabinet refacing only to have a coworker say "they wouldn't be sick if we would only have enough faith". I don't believe my son or husband were sick from any lack of faith. I quit my job to take care of both of them and went on welfare, because the two of them needed a fulltime caregiver. My husband was injured on the job by printing chemicals, he was not injured by a lack of faith.
Vaccine injury is caused by vaccine injury, not lack of faith. Cancer, caused by carcinogens, not lack of faith....I could go on and on. I don't think as Christians we need to leave our logic at the door when it comes to basic health matters!

Even now, with our son being an athiest, I do not believe that to be from a lack of faith. (ha-pun intended.) He says his reason for becoming an athiest is from a direct result of contact with people in the church and their lack of compassion. So....ya....

I think the lack of faith doctrine has been for our family hurtful and offensive....
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#16 of 28 Old 08-28-2006, 11:40 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bestbirths
I believe that God allows illness in some of his followers for his glory. Take Job for instance, he didn't have any lack of faith, yet God allowed him to suffer horribly, and have the least compassionate friends imaginable. I think I remember one of his friends saying (paraphrased-haven't read the book in years) "what sin had he done?" or to "examine his heart for hidden sin and give up his pride and denial about it". What a lovely friend to have in a time of need. Hey, with those kinds of friends, who needs enemies?

Anyone who has read the Bible knows that Job was a man who feared God and avoided evil...God was allowing his suffering to test his faith.

Imagine how offensive it was for me, fifteen years ago when my husband who was a man of God was disabled, my son was disabled too and unable to attend a daycare. I went work at sears to sell siding and cabinet refacing only to have a coworker say "they wouldn't be sick if we would only have enough faith". I don't believe my son or husband were sick from any lack of faith. I quit my job to take care of both of them and went on welfare, because the two of them needed a fulltime caregiver. My husband was injured on the job by printing chemicals, he was not injured by a lack of faith.
Vaccine injury is caused by vaccine injury, not lack of faith. Cancer, caused by carcinogens, not lack of faith....I could go on and on. I don't think as Christians we need to leave our logic at the door when it comes to basic health matters!

Even now, with our son being an athiest, I do not believe that to be from a lack of faith. (ha-pun intended.) He says his reason for becoming an athiest is from a direct result of contact with people in the church and their lack of compassion. So....ya....

I think the lack of faith doctrine has been for our family hurtful and offensive....
Thank you for saying what I evidently could not phrase without violating the UA. This is how I feel, exactly.
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#17 of 28 Old 08-28-2006, 12:21 PM
 
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Thanks for the hug sunshine star..:

JJ,
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#18 of 28 Old 08-28-2006, 07:05 PM
 
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JustJamie, since you are still in effect saying it, your pM allocation is fully and you have again asked me this question
Quote:
I am curious, how you explain your opinion that all harm from illnesses/diseases is simply due to a lack of belief in God.
I will reply to your original question to me that was removed.

Here is the post I was about to put up before the thread was pulled.

Quote:
originally posted by JustJamie

And, MT, since you're online, PLEASE clarify. Do you REALLY believe that anyone who has ever been harmed by any disease or illness was so harmed simply becasue they didn't believe in God?
How would I know the answer to that for this world today? I can only answer that for myself.

If you look in the old testament though two Kings died because they either went to the doctors and not the Lord (2 Chronicles 16 : 12 - 13) , or went to the pagan priest and not the Lord (2 Kings 1 : 2 - 5).

If you look at why the people of Israel got sick in the wilderness it was through direct disobedience.

Look in the New Testament. Read about some of the people Jesus healed, and when he said "Your sins are forgiven you" and told them to take up their beds and walk. Those people had done wrong, and their consciences were eating them up. Stress is the biggest cortisol releaser and immune suppressor of any other factor. It is proven in the medical literature. Had they understood then, the concept of taking your sins to God, doing whatever restorative action was required, and getting rid of their stress, they might not have been sick. Yes, I believe there are people today who are sick because they still don't understand those principles, and all you have to do is read their written testimonies in which they have said as much.

So lack of understanding, or "unbelief" can be a factor for some people. But there is another aspect here too that Hosea 4 : 6 touches on when he says "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge..." In this, he talks about both literal and spiritual knowledge, and consequences applies to both.

Having said that, if you use New Testament principles and are walking with God, then theoretically, you should be able to survive things other people wouldn't (See Act's 28 : 3 - 5).

As Bestbirths said, many Christian people have become ill, or injured. And it may well be that God was able to better minister through them, that way, so who are we to ask WHY?

God has been pointing to me, to show me, that I cannot escape the other side of the coin which is that ALL people who came to Jesus to be healed, were healed. And that is what I am dealing with now, and have been for the last four years.

This is my walk.

The whole of the Bible shows what CAN be done, and the consequences that happen if you don't. Do a bible study on "dry bones" and see what you find.

There are certain rules that God has placed there, which some call rules of nature, but I do not, and I disobey them at my peril. It's called the Law of Consequences.

God has brought me to my knees several times through the use of illness.

And right now, I have a raging sore throat which I know is as a result of burning the candle at ten ends. So He and I have some talking to do. More likely He has some talking and I have some listening.

And this morning it is even worse, so I am facing a situation whereby it may go the whole hog. For someone with an immunodeficiency, can be daunting.

And how is it that my immunodeficiency hasn't been cured? My lack of faith? I don't have an answer on that. Maybe to show me that in spite of my problems God can prevail, and be faithful and has helped me so far to manage that without resorting to what doctors say I "should" do, which would be monthly immunoglobulin and various other drug spectrums I will have nothing to do with? That is my choice.

Others here with children with immunodeficiencies have made the same choice and despite the so-called odds, their children are doing very well.

God's ways are not man's ways, and whereas some might interpret what other people say according to theirr own biases, God sees a person's heart and motives in all that they say.

I stated above what I believe. And that is all. What you believe is between you and God. You answer to Him, not to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cutie Patootie
I wanted to ask you...do you use doctors for any sicknesses?
I might go to a doctor for blood tests or to get a diagnosis. It depends on the situation. If I know what is wrong, then no.

Quote:
I am only curious, so I hope you don't mind me prying. Do you use abx. at any given time or do you leave all healing solely up to God, including surgeries and such?
1) I'm allergic to all antibiotics, because my parents treated my regular infections which appear to be from a primary immunodeficiency, which wasn't diagnosed until I was 29. I have been allergic to all antibiotics for the last 33 years, and my reactions are so bad, that they daren't even try any new ones, without putting me on life support first, so it isn't going to happen.

God has shown me other methods, and my health is now better than it was as a child.

2) I've turned down surgery twice, and have not suffered the dire consequences that were assured that I would.

Generally now, yes, the first place I turn is to God, and that is because He has convicted me to do that. These are the primary verses God is convicting me about recently, and they came together in my head in this order:

OT verses:

2 Chronicles 16 : 9 - 13.

2 Chronicals 18 : 5 onward, and linked to that Micaiah verses 7 - 27.

Also 2 Kings 1 : 2 - 7.

Nahum 1 : 7

Psalm 42 : 11

Exodus 15 : 26

Psalm 103 : 2 - 6

NT verses

Mark 11 : 22 - 24

1 John 2 : 14 - 15

James 1 : 8

James 1 : 17

Matthew 7 : 7-11

Luke 6 : 38

Matthew 6 : 33

Matthew 7 : 13 - 14

Philippians 4 : 19

Hebrews 11 : 6

2 Corinthians 5 : 7

James 1 : 17

James 1 : 5 - 6

Hebrews 13 : 8

Quote:
I struggle with this because I believe God can and does and will heal but I don't feel that it is black and white or all or nothing. Does that make sense? Anyway, I am interested in what you believe about doctors, medicines etc as a whole.

ETA: both of my dc are unvaxxed
I take each situation as it comes, and do as God directs, and if that is to use the medical profession fine. Sometimes God directs me to go to the doctor to show me that I'm making a mountain out of a molehill.

As Blessed said to AmyD we are all "terminal". It could be that my designated death is tomorrow under a bus, or sometime in the future if Australia nukes NZ ( I'm talking rubbish, but you know what I mean)

As I get older I am more of the mind of Eshak, Meshak and Abednigo, in that should a doctor threaten me, when I don't want to do something I shall say to that doctor, what they said to Nebuchadnezzar. (See Daniel 3 : 15 - 18 the emphasis being on the last verse).

So many of the scriptures show that even though the majority rule, its not the majority who are right. WE know that too, as did Copernicus, and the people who thought the world was round, when the majority thought it was flat. Semmelweiss know that puerperal fever was doctors not washing their hands, yet the experts of the time said that was rubbish and harrassed him so badly he died in a mental assylum. Medical history is littered with minority people who were pilloried and slandered, yet they were right. Look at what happened to William Harvey in 1602, when he started to lecture on the circulation of the blood. They thought he was mad. Look at what happened to Pillemer in the 50's when he wrote about properdin in the cellular system. He committed suicide after the verbal attacks from his colleagues.

The medical system never changes. Just as people who don't vaccinate will continue to be pilloried, slandered and made out in the media, by some doctors, to look like emissaries from Satan, and about to plunge the whole world into the dark ages


http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f7...drion/scan.jpg

The same applies scripturally, that the minority is targetted, and its easy to feel alone in that respect. Anything that doesn't fit the system's mould is discarded in the minds of the majority, and in more ways than just spiritually (Matthew 7 : 13 - 14 applies).

God's people have always been a remnant, the Called-out Ones, according to the Bible. And throughout history his people have always been ridiculed for their ways.

But lets take a different look at the medical profession for a moment.

In this country preventable medical error kills 1,500 people, and maims 4,000, every year and that is in three places. The medical literature, newspapers and Government hansard.

Yet these same people consider parents who don't vaccinate, or chose other methods than Q-4 Health Pharmaceuticals to be idiots/criminals?

I prefer to walk the way God leads me. After all, the Bible says that my times are in his hands, and all work to the good for those that love the Lord.

I cannot speak for anyone else other than myself. All God asks me to do is that when asked I give account for my beliefs. Not ram them down someone else's throat.

“I want to sell drugs to everyone. I want to sell drugs to healthy people. I want drugs to sell like chewing gum.” former Merck CEO, Henry Gadsden

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#19 of 28 Old 08-28-2006, 07:10 PM
 
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You may need to download the jpg and use your magnifying glass to read the photobucket newspaper article.

“I want to sell drugs to everyone. I want to sell drugs to healthy people. I want drugs to sell like chewing gum.” former Merck CEO, Henry Gadsden

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#20 of 28 Old 08-30-2006, 10:47 AM
 
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MT….

There is balance to everything. Why does God allow trial and tribulation?

Job-whole book

Quote:
Job 3:10 Shall we receive Good at the hand of God and not Evil?
How should people who are afflicted be treated? Should they be encouraged to "have more faith"...not according to Job.

Quote:
Job 6:14 To him that is afflicted pity should be shewed from his friend;
Job chapter 9 focusing on verse 22

When I read Job, I read the negativity from the friends as “not God’s message to Job”, but rather like judgemental people who bite on you with their hurtful words, which is what Jobs friends were doing. They were not God’s mouthpiece. Job 13:4, Job 13:7, Job 42:7

Their message, which may have some basis found in scripture, although incorrectly applied in Job’s case, seems similar in theme to many of the verses you have been applying to yourself from the OT. This is just my opinion, which I am sharing because I care about you. I think you are not being very kind to yourself in your time of affliction, beating yourself up with bible verses full of negativity…

An alternative to the stress of constant self examination, would be to let go and trust him.

Quote:
Job 13:15 Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him.
A lot of the things the friends were saying are the same kinds of things that are taught today about people who are suffering, but here is what Job had to say about it.

Quote:
Job 16:2 I have heard many such things: miserable comforters are ye all. (Job to his friends)
Quote:
Job 16:20 My friends scorn me, but my eye poureth out tears unto God.
It’s almost like the verses quoted by Job’s friends are the exact opposite message that God wants his children who he loves dearly to believe about themselves during a trial of their faith.

Quote:
Job 19:2 How long will ye vex my soul, and break me in pieces with words?
Quote:
Job 19:21 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, o ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.
Quote:
Job 23:3- KJV (no copyright) Oh that I knew where I might find him! That I might come even to his seat. I would order my cause before him, and fill my mouth with arguments. I would know the words which he would answer me, and understand what he would say unto me. Will he plead against me with his great power? No; but he would put strength in me. There the righteous might dispute with him; so should I be delivered for ever from my judge. Behold, I go forward, but he is not there; and backward, but I cannot perceive him; on the left hand, where he doth work, but I cannot behold him; he hideth himself on the right hand, that I cannot see him; but he knoweth the way that I take: when he hath tried me, I shall come forth as gold. My foot hath held his steps, his way have I kept, and not declined. Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food.
In the end, after the trial was over, God gave Job twice as much as he had before. I would have to say this has been true for us, we have recieved God's blessings far and above, after the trial of our faith, and he continues to bless us, even though we don't go to church or do any of the things that Christians are "supposed to do".

Quote:
Job 42:10 And the Lord turned the captivity of Job, when he prayed for his friends; also the Lord gave Job twice as much as he had before. Vs. 12 So the Lord blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning.
We have prayed for our friends, who are no longer our friends, but oh well, we pray for the ones who have abused us. We choose not to be around them, however.

Some NT perspective on trials of your faith:


Quote:
I Peter 1:7- Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations; that the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
Quote:
I Peter 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened to you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ’s sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
Quote:
Vs 16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
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#21 of 28 Old 08-30-2006, 02:33 PM
 
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I come at these questions from a totally different point of view, although I do consider myself a Christian--it is a big room--and my take on being a Christian includes karma and reincarnation.

However, a useful rule I've developed for myself is that I never judge someone else's fate, destiny or difficulties. That means that I never say to anyone: Well, you obviously did that to yourself, yada, yada, yada. I try to avoid even thinking such thoughts, although it is a lot more difficult to control my thinking. However, I do try to look critically at the events in my own life and to understand causation. If I really feel as though something has fallen into place, and I understand the background of the events, I may even share my experiences (as MT has done) in the hopes that someone else may find a useful clue to their own path.

So, to summarize my current philosophy, look hard at your own life, hands off other people's lives (except to offer totally uncritical help, if the spirit moves). And questions can be answered, but only if asked! And I learned, the hard way, to distrust other folks explanations of why something had happened to me. Almost always wrong, and sometimes very hurtful.

Deborah
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#22 of 28 Old 08-30-2006, 03:03 PM
 
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Deborah,

I know very little about the belief of Karma but thought it was explained pretty well with the tea and the cup in the movie, "little budda", which I watched recently. I believe that a person's body dies one time only and that their soul doesn't go to a new body, but is intended to go to heaven, the place where God dwells. I am curious though, in the reincarnation belief whether or not there is a place for suffering when the person afflicted didn't do anything to cause it in their current, or previous lives?
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#23 of 28 Old 08-30-2006, 03:07 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deborah
However, a useful rule I've developed for myself is that I never judge someone else's fate, destiny or difficulties. That means that I never say to anyone: Well, you obviously did that to yourself, yada, yada, yada. I try to avoid even thinking such thoughts, although it is a lot more difficult to control my thinking. However, I do try to look critically at the events in my own life and to understand causation. If I really feel as though something has fallen into place, and I understand the background of the events, I may even share my experiences (as MT has done) in the hopes that someone else may find a useful clue to their own path.

So, to summarize my current philosophy, look hard at your own life, hands off other people's lives
Deborah
I was lurking but had to step in and say Amen! Why don't more people understand that Christianity is supposed to guide you in how to live --your-- life--not tell you how other people should be living theirs.

It is so much easier to fix other people's problems than our own though, isn't it!

Mom to DS 5/05 and DD 9/08
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#24 of 28 Old 08-30-2006, 10:26 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Bestbirths
Deborah,

I know very little about the belief of Karma but thought it was explained pretty well with the tea and the cup in the movie, "little budda", which I watched recently. I believe that a person's body dies one time only and that their soul doesn't go to a new body, but is intended to go to heaven, the place where God dwells. I am curious though, in the reincarnation belief whether or not there is a place for suffering when the person afflicted didn't do anything to cause it in their current, or previous lives?
To answer briefly: absolutely and totally yes!

Some examples I've come across--someone may incarnate into a difficult situation involving considerable challenges in order to develop special capacities. This may be the case sometimes for people with developmental difficulties. In a future incarnation, the capacities developed may make possible extraordinary achievements.

Further, humanity over the last few thousand years has moved away from being awake to direct spiritual guidance (you can see this clearly in many ancient religious texts, where human beings had direct conversation with angels or "gods"). We are hopefully reawakening these connections, but during the dark gap, we became both free and seriously off course. Therefore there are a lot of factors right now that could seriously complicate any sort of karmic guidance. Birth control for example, supports human freedom and individuality, but also makes it tricky for someone trying to be born into a particular family at a particular time. If the parents are tuned in, all will be well, if not, a person might have to take a different family and set of circumstances and make the best of it (or not).

The problem above also plays out in group disasters, such as children being poisoned by toxic substances in vaccines. Some of these children may be actually meeting their destiny (which could have met them by other means if the vaccines hadn't been poisoned), but the huge majority are obviously the innocent victims of a toxic culture and government.

Throughout history, huge disasters seem to me to be obviously beyond individual karma (think tsunami and earthquakes).

All of the above are reasons why I strive not to judge the circumstances of other people's destiny. My view is just too damn limited.

Does the above answer your question?

And thanks for stating your position so gently and without prejudice!
Deborah
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#25 of 28 Old 08-30-2006, 10:40 PM
 
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Bestbirths, you ask:

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Why does God allow trial and tribulation?
And you quote many good scriptures.

As you know I spent nearly a year in bed when I was 17, and have been through my fair share of trial and tribulation.

I believe that it is the other side of the coin, that as with Job, sickness can come to test our core foundational concepts, how we see God, and how we see other people, particularly the likes of Job's comforters who can be incredibly snarky.

In my case "trials and tribulations" cover a wide gamut, but I wouldn't be doing what I am today, had they not happened when they did, and why they did.

Those trials and tribulations were for a purpose.

The cold that I have now, which looked rapidly like the flu, but which is responding well to quackery shot gun approach, with my only concession to the medical profession being nasal decongestant to prevent ear ache.

I can see that I didn't make nearly enough elderberry extract. Next year I will work long and hard, dry everything and put up two litres of the stuff.

Again, I believe that this mini trial, and as a result interesting therapeutic experiment, is because I was burning the candle at both ends, and not paying attention to what God wanted me to. That something good, useful and interesting can come out of it, reinforces the concept that all works together for good when a person loves the Lord.

However, we cannot escape the verses that I put up, and your verses don't so much as balance is, as provide the reality of the fact it can and does happen. But your verses don't address the why, (which God did for Job, just maybe, likewise today, people trials and tribulations might be a dare from Satan to God... who am I to know?) and for me, there has never not been an answer to that question. For others, they may not have an answer. That doesn't mean there isn't one. It just might mean that, as with Job, when he kept asking (and got not answer or solution until he prayed for his friends...) they haven't got the answer ~ yet.

“I want to sell drugs to everyone. I want to sell drugs to healthy people. I want drugs to sell like chewing gum.” former Merck CEO, Henry Gadsden

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#26 of 28 Old 08-30-2006, 10:46 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Qestia
I was lurking but had to step in and say Amen! Why don't more people understand that Christianity is supposed to guide you in how to live --your-- life--not tell you how other people should be living theirs.
Most people who really understand what walking with Jesus is about, know exactly that.

Quote:
It is so much easier to fix other people's problems than our own though, isn't it!
Actually I don't find it is. It's easier to fix mine, becuase I'm more likely to be totally honest with myself, whereas in dealing with other people, I often find that when analysing what the problems are key pieces of the puzzle may, for personal reasons, be left out.

“I want to sell drugs to everyone. I want to sell drugs to healthy people. I want drugs to sell like chewing gum.” former Merck CEO, Henry Gadsden

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#27 of 28 Old 08-31-2006, 11:18 AM
 
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Does the above answer your question?
yes

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In my case "trials and tribulations" cover a wide gamut, but I wouldn't be doing what I am today, had they not happened when they did, and why they did.

Those trials and tribulations were for a purpose.
ITA, we wouldn't be who we are today without those trials, and we (dh, the children, & myself) wouldn't want to go back and be the people we were before the trials.
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#28 of 28 Old 08-31-2006, 12:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara
God has been pointing to me, to show me, that I cannot escape the other side of the coin which is that ALL people who came to Jesus to be healed, were healed. And that is what I am dealing with now, and have been for the last four years.
I dunno, what about Paul in Corinthians?

"Concerning this thing, I begged the Lord three times that it might depart from me. But He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Most gladly therefore I will rather glory in my weaknesses, that the power of Christ may rest on me."

Anyway, it's interesting to understand more of where you are coming from, though as you might imagine I disagree. I believe that God wants us to trust in Him, and also to apply our own efforts to the needs of our state, whether the need is for food, shelter, safety, or healing - wasn't it He who said that we should eat by the sweat of our brow, that "6 days shall you labor," not that we should sit around waiting for God to send manna from heaven - unless He specifically said that He would do so in a certain period. And I don't see a *moral* difference between taking elderberry extract and vitamin powders, and taking any other substance that one believes will be helpful.

Nonetheless I commend your integrity in following the path you believe that God wants for you.
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