OK convince me - Page 2 - Mothering Forums
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Vaccinations > OK convince me
CrazyCatLady's Avatar CrazyCatLady 02:22 AM 11-10-2006
You have stumbled on one of the best (if not the very best) vax resources available on the internet. Keep reading the archives, past threads, current threads, and stickies. There is enough there to convince you I'm sure. I personally don't feel comfortable convincing anyone about anything. You need to do your own research so that you can feel confident and comfortable with your decisions. But if you ever have more specific questions, we're always here to help. Good luck and welcome to MDC.

mamakay's Avatar mamakay 02:41 AM 11-10-2006
Quote:
You have stumbled on one of the best (if not the very best) vax resources available on the internet.
I'm going to say "the very best". No competition.
Even the total antivaxers here have little tolerance for "antivax misinformation". Most of the people here are more than willing to back up their opinions with facts.
CrazyCatLady's Avatar CrazyCatLady 02:45 AM 11-10-2006
I don't read many anti-vax sites, so I didn't want to be presumptuous. I agree about all facts being able to be backed up. This board doesn't tolerate rumors or speculation. You got to be on your toes when you post information. Can make the place seem heated sometimes, but at least you know that what you read is generally well researched and easily proven info.
mamakay's Avatar mamakay 02:48 AM 11-10-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melaya View Post
I don't read many anti-vax sites, so I didn't want to be presumptuous.
I don't either, and a couple I've stumbled on weren't that bad...some are horrible...a lot are a real mixed bag of nuts...
But nothing is quite like here, where it's interactive, you know?
Momtezuma Tuatara's Avatar Momtezuma Tuatara 03:28 AM 11-10-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by prettypixels View Post
Aborted fetal cells seems a bit of a stretch to me from cell lines obtained in the 1960's!


http://www.cdc.gov/nip/vacsafe/conce...tion.htm#Fetal
http://www.ascb.org/index.cfm?navid=...820&tcode=nws3

If there's evidence of continuing studies in FRESH lines of cells, please do let me know. (ie: Legitimate medical websites, thanks!)
Quote:
Originally Posted by prettypixels View Post
I guess that depends on how you feel about stem cell research. Also we are talking now about cells generated from those two abortions in the 60's, not cells taken directly from expelled tissue from a woman in the 60's. So there are a few steps removed, but yeah, if you are someone who is against all forms of stem cell research I can see how this would be an issue for you. However I think that's very different than saying "Aborted Fetal Tissue," which makes it sound like actual tissue from aborted fetuses is used in vaccines.
Here are the official files for the two aborted fetal cell lines:

http://www.atcc.org/common/catalog/n...atccNum=CCL-75

http://www.atcc.org/common/catalog/n...tccNum=CCL-171


1) The DNA of those cells is still the unique DNA of the baby from which it was taken

2) Therefore it is still from an aborted foetus.
DevaMajka's Avatar DevaMajka 03:32 AM 11-10-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsmum View Post
The risk of vaccination damage compared to catching the disease is very low - so?
But that's not a fair comparison (even if it were true, which alegna gave a link to where the CDC says it's not).
You'd have to compare the risk of vaccine damage to the risk of having a complication from the disease.
Since most people who get those diseases have no complications, and have actual life long immunity, the chance of getting the disease is irrelevant.

And actually, to take it a bit further, in order to compare the risks and benefits you'd have to actually know the risks. And no one does, because the safety studies are sorely lacking, and the vaccine reactions are horribly underreported.
Momtezuma Tuatara's Avatar Momtezuma Tuatara 03:33 AM 11-10-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by prettypixels View Post
Also I feel like there is an implication that vaccine manufacturers are lurking outside of abortion clinic doors to get these cells when people blithely state that they contain aborted fetal cells. That's not the case.
Please point me to the post which implied that was the case.

Or is that implication made up in your head, and you are then attributing something to a comment that was neither implied nor intended?
MamaPossum's Avatar MamaPossum 03:35 AM 11-10-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara View Post
Here are the official files for the two aborted fetal cell lines:

http://www.atcc.org/common/catalog/n...atccNum=CCL-75

http://www.atcc.org/common/catalog/n...tccNum=CCL-171


1) The DNA of those cells is still the unique DNA of the baby from which it was taken

2) Therefore it is still from an aborted foetus.
Have mercy, you have everything in your file cabinet!

This is an odd thing to think about. This poor baby was aborted and its cells are still hanging around getting bought and sold over and over again when it never got a chance to live. Ethically this makes my stomach churn.
Momtezuma Tuatara's Avatar Momtezuma Tuatara 03:39 AM 11-10-2006
Well, you know, I'd hate to be accused of not presenting "Legitimate medical websites"...
LongIsland's Avatar LongIsland 03:41 AM 11-10-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deva33mommy View Post
You'd have to compare the risk of vaccine damage to the risk of having a complication from the disease.

Since most people who get those diseases have no complications, and have actual life long immunity, the chance of getting the disease is irrelevant.

LongIsland's Avatar LongIsland 03:44 AM 11-10-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by prettypixels View Post
If there's evidence of continuing studies in FRESH lines of cells, please do let me know. (ie: Legitimate medical websites, thanks!)
That's like saying "they reduced/removed thimerosal from vaccines, so they're SAFE now."

What difference does it make if it's from 1960 or 2006 if someone is opposed to abortion?
Momtezuma Tuatara's Avatar Momtezuma Tuatara 03:49 AM 11-10-2006
There's lots of different new animal cell lines coming on the market too. Like this one:

http://www.fdaadvisorycommittee.com/...adinDarbyP.htm
Quote:

FDA To Seek Input On Safety Of Flu Vaccine Produced In Tumorigenic Canine Cells

FDA will solicit input from the Vaccines & Related Biological Products Advisory Committee at its Nov. 16 meeting on the agency’s approach to evaluating the safety of highly tumorigenic cells in vaccine production.

The agency will raise the question as part of a discussion over the use of the Madin Darby canine kidney cell line for influenza vaccine production.

“While some lines of MDCK cells are not tumorigenic, others are highly tumorigenic,” FDA briefing materials state. “Thus, one goal of this meeting is for the committee to comment on our modified [Defined Risks Approach] as applied to highly tumorigenic cell substrates.”

The agency acknowledged that there is a perception that vaccines produced using tumorigenic cell substrates could pose a safety risk – particularly with regard to the potential for unrecognized oncogenic viruses – that increases with the tumorigenicity of the cells.

It is “not possible to determine whether the use of a cell substrate that is strongly tumorigenic poses more of a risk than one that is weakly tumorigenic,” FDA said.

Consequently, “a key and unresolved scientific question is whether and how the degree of tumorigenicity of a cell substrate should influence the testing algorithm for the determination of its suitability for use in vaccine production.”

HHS is trying to incentivize flu vaccine manufacturers to transition from the current egg-based production model to cell-based manufacturing.

The agency appears comfortable that potential risks associated with tumorigenic cell substrates can be mitigated.

“Although there is a perception that highly tumorigenic cells may carry greater risks than less tumorigenic cells, we are proposing that such risks can be mitigated by careful testing of the cells, validation of the production process for its capacity to remove adventitious agents, and limitation of residual DNA in the final product,” FDA said.

FDA is also asking the committee to discuss whether the agency should take additional steps “to address issues associated with the use of MDCK cells or neoplastic cell substrates.”

The committee will hear presentations from Chiron and Solvay about the development of their MDCK-based flu vaccines.

Solvay recently filed a Drug Master File for its MDCK-based flu vaccine and plans to file an IND, the company’s briefing document states. Solvay received approval for Influvac TC in the Netherlands in 2001 based on clinical trials enrolling 1,023 vaccinated patients.

Chiron’s briefing document states that the company expects to commence clinical studies of its MDCK-based flu vaccine in the U.S. this year. The company has vaccinated over 3,000 patients in trials in Europe and New Zealand and is seeking approval by the European Medicines Agency.

To watch a webcast of this meeting, click the button below. To arrange for live videoconferencing, or to order videotapes & DVDs, email [email protected] or call 800-627-8171.
Posted: Tuesday, November 15, 2005
The first flu vaccine using this highly tumorigenic cell line was trialled in New Zealand last year.

If, in X years down the line, the vaccine trial recipients get a cancer with a dog tumorigenic virus in it, what will they tell that person.
Momtezuma Tuatara's Avatar Momtezuma Tuatara 03:55 AM 11-10-2006
Well, well, guess what. The URL is no longer relevant. Glad I took a screen shot of it when I did.
Anglyn's Avatar Anglyn 03:04 PM 11-10-2006

zen_monster's Avatar zen_monster 04:07 PM 11-10-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by ripcurlgirl26 View Post
It's not our job to convince you of anything. You need to do the research, reading, and studying to decide for yourself whether or not you want to inject chemicals and animal cells into your child(ren).

:
annettemarie's Avatar annettemarie 01:16 PM 11-13-2006
Thread closed til I get a chance to look it over. It might not be for a bit though, so bear with me.
annettemarie's Avatar annettemarie 12:07 AM 11-14-2006
Okie dokie I am opening this back up again. Please keep any speculations about posters' intents off the boards. If you really do think someone is posting with less-than-honorable intent, please report the post or PM a mod.

If you have any other concerns, please PM me.

Have a great and respectful discussion!
Annette
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