Natural Immunity to Tetanus - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 32 Old 12-24-2006, 02:16 AM - Thread Starter
 
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There are several medical studies that went into countries and tested people who were not vaccinated against tetanus and found that they had anti-tetanus toxin antibodies.

For whatever reason, the WHO prefers to consider that these studies don't mean anything.

the other thing is that because immunologist know very little about the inate immune system, how it works, or what the complexities of cellular immunity is, they really don't know how to "quantify" immunity.

They think antibodies is the b-all and end-all, when it can't possibly be. When agammaglobulinaemics can go through and survive both measles and polio the same as the rest of us, humans have a lot going for them that immunologist's just don't understand.

The public doesn't know that immunologist don't know what immunity it, because they don't say anything much. They think that by keeping quiet, people will assume that they know what they are saying and doing, instead of being minus the key part of the jigsaw puzzle. They flip off this stuff about antibodies, yet betray their ignorance in the Men C studies that I put up yesterday.

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#2 of 32 Old 12-24-2006, 02:33 AM
 
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There are several medical studies that went into countries and tested people who were not vaccinated against tetanus and found that they had anti-tetanus toxin antibodies.
Is that in pubmed?
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#3 of 32 Old 12-24-2006, 03:03 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Of course. Since when do I talk outta ma liddle bwown aye?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=1092755

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=3980089

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=6680401

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=6827147

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=6114281

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#4 of 32 Old 12-24-2006, 03:18 AM
 
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great thread!

so if immunologists don't know squat about immunity, then what DO they know about?



:
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#5 of 32 Old 12-24-2006, 03:22 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Talking about rabbit antiserum:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=3301392

Now cross check that with this:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=3611114

which might explain why some vaccinated people get tetanus?

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#6 of 32 Old 12-24-2006, 03:28 AM - Thread Starter
 
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But kidspiration, they will say that natural immunity only applies to kids that live in hovels, eat dirt and don't have savlon obsessed parents.

Except if that is so, why did they do that huge push through mexico, south America and the phillipines over a decade ago, vaccinating all those women with tetanus vaccine.

Why only the women too?

That was the "smoke" that wouldn't go away, which was raised by a roman catholic priest in Mexico, who commented on internet that many of the vaccinated women were miscarrying or could no longer conceive. The vaccine was tested by three groups who found that it had hcg in it.

Then the women in other countries started to have the same thing happen, and the smoke became fire, and the WHO got involved and the official answer was "What rot. It's just conspiracist theorists abounding yet again."

But as the priest, and all the other people said at the time, if their focus was on tetanus protection for all why were only woman targetted? Dont' men get tetanus too?

The story remain unsatisfactorily unresolved.

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#7 of 32 Old 12-24-2006, 03:42 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara View Post
Talking about rabbit antiserum:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=3301392

Now cross check that with this:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=3611114

which might explain why some vaccinated people get tetanus?
A while back you and Spy were talking about how right around half the people who get tetanus "should" be immune according to serology. (or it was something to that effect).
Can you find a link on the "immune" people who still get tetanus?
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#8 of 32 Old 12-24-2006, 03:44 AM
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#9 of 32 Old 12-24-2006, 03:50 AM - Thread Starter
 
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So are the immunologists going to explain this?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=3746002

Spy the first URL doesn't work.

Re the bmj, oh yeah... there's a few of them.

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#10 of 32 Old 12-24-2006, 03:56 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Now, here's a funny abstract in USA:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=2679573
Quote:
Of the 84 patients who reported their immunization histories, five reported no complete series of tetanus shots but had adequate antibody levels, while three reported a complete series but had inadequate levels.

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#11 of 32 Old 12-24-2006, 04:12 AM
 
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Wow...look at this! Another one..
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=6680401

Quote:
The data suggest a silent oral immunization by tetanus bacilli thus boosting under unhygienic conditions the tetanus immunity with advancing age.
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#12 of 32 Old 12-24-2006, 04:21 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Yes, but I think the key is this one:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=1092755

Quote:
The existence of natural immunization was unquestionably demonstrated by presence of protective levels of tetanus antitoxin in the blood of the majority of 59 surveyed subjects considering that none of them had ever received any tetanus toxoid and most of them never received a single shot of any drug. The results of this survey originated a few arguments that may support the answer to some still intriguing phenomenona such as: 1. The relatively small number of cases of overt disease among people and animals born and living in large tetanus-risk regions all over the world. 2. The existence of "poor responders" and "good responders" to the primary tetanus toxoid stimulus. 3. The age distribution of tetanus showing evident prevalence among newborns and children.
Which indicates to me that the bad responders to the infection, might also be the bad responders to the vaccine.

But historically the point is that tetanus has always been very very rare anyway presumably because humans are capable of acquiring natural immunity.

But like I said, some doctors argue that since we no longer crawl in dirt, and eat barn-yard dust, naturally immunity is irrelevant. So then, how can they say the vaccine was responsible for the decline of tetanus? Might it be that with less exposure to tetanus there are fewer opportunities for regular large bolus doses? After all, they can't have it both ways. If we have less exposure, therefore can't get natural immunity any more because of "sanitary conditions", then it stands to reason that even without a vaccine there would be fewer cases.

No?

(I realise the potential flaw in that logic )

But my youngest had a hobby of eating earwigs which I always found the abdomens of in his nappy, so maybe he's okay

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#13 of 32 Old 12-24-2006, 04:21 AM
 
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This is so sad. Google "subclinical tetanus".
One hit in all of the internet.
http://www.mothering.com/discussions.../t-363329.html

WTH?
Is that not a question worth exploring?
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#14 of 32 Old 12-24-2006, 04:27 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara View Post
Yes, but I think the key is this one:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=1092755



Which indicates to me that the bad responders to the infection, might also be the bad responders to the vaccine.
That was my first thought, too. Some kind of bad luck of the draw immunodeficiency.
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#15 of 32 Old 12-24-2006, 04:31 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I have an article on subacute tetanus... lemme find it..

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#16 of 32 Old 12-24-2006, 04:33 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Here ya go:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=3773025

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#17 of 32 Old 12-24-2006, 04:43 AM - Thread Starter
 
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All the patients were adults, and basically had maybe mild ataxia, funny muscle spasms and mild difficulty swallowing

And then compare the one above, with this one on tetanus in immunized children:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=8335151

Quote:
he course of tetanus in immunized patients is atypical and often benign, but the diagnosis is problematic--in contrast to affected children in developing countries, whose populations are not adequately immunized and where neonatal tetanus is common and often fatal.
Ironic isn't it, that this is "atypical" when actually sub-acute or subclinical is the norm. Shows how brainwashed they are.


And this:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=16183461

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#18 of 32 Old 12-24-2006, 01:39 PM
 
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WRT lack of information the "exspurts" have on the immune system,

This article was just published this month,

http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/526194/?sc=rssn

Saturday December 23, 2006

Cellular Pathway Yields Potential New Weapon in Vaccine Arsenal

Released: Fri 22-Dec-2006, 20:45 ET

"When a cell has to destroy any of its organelles or protein aggregates, it envelops them in a membrane, forming an autophagosome, and then moves them to another compartment, the lysosome, for digestion. Two years ago, Rockefeller University assistant professor Christian Münz showed that this process, called autophagy, sensitizes cells for recognition by the immune system’s helper T cells. But he didn’t know how often this pathway is used or how efficient it is. Now, a new study published online today in the journal Immunity goes a long way toward addressing these questions and shows that the pathway is so common that it could be a valuable new way of boosting vaccine efficacy."

See link above for entire article.
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#19 of 32 Old 12-26-2006, 06:21 PM
 
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Bump.
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#20 of 32 Old 12-26-2006, 09:53 PM - Thread Starter
 
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But here's the problem with this approach...

http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/526194/?sc=rssn
Quote:
Originally Posted by suschi View Post
Two years ago, Rockefeller University assistant professor Christian Münz showed that this process, called autophagy, sensitizes cells for recognition by the immune system’s helper T cells. But he didn’t know how often this pathway is used or how efficient it is.
This is what these immunologist do. They don't know how often the pathway is, or how efficient it is. Right?

That's what he said. BUT... the very pathway he is talking about, is a key pathway in terms of vaccines, because its dendritic cells that are turned on by aluminium, or whatever adjuvant is used to switch it on, which then act as the antigen presenters.

So what business do they have shoving anything in there, when they know squat about what it really does?

Quote:
Now, a new study published online today in the journal Immunity goes a long way toward addressing these questions and shows that the pathway is so common that it could be a valuable new way of boosting vaccine efficacy."
So here we go again.

Let the fools rush in where angels fear to tread.

More:
Quote:
Now Münz, head of Rockefeller’s Laboratory of Viral Immunobiology, and Dorothee Schmid, a graduate student in the lab, have shown that the autophagy pathway is far more widespread than they thought: They found that a surprising number of cells with MHC class II molecules on their surfaces used the autophagy pathway.
Well, hello? Had they asked me ten years ago; had they bothered to study Sir MacFarlane Burnet who wrote in the 60's and 70's that should have been self-evident.

Oh, I forgot. Old literature doesn't teach us very much does it? So why read it?

Quote:
In skin (epithelial) cells and two other types of immune cells (dendritic and B cells), [i]50 to 80 percent of the autophagosomes moved into the loading compartment for MHC class II molecules.[i] “For types of cells that upregulate MHC class II upon inflammation -- epithelial cells of infected organs, for instance -- one could assume that they might actually use the autophagy pathway fairly frequently,” Münz says.
So, what will be their next assumption do you reckon?

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#21 of 32 Old 12-26-2006, 10:04 PM - Thread Starter
 
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This is another important one as well, and they really need to sort this out. Because its part of the key.

But then I hesitate to say that, since everything they want to understand they also want a dollar value on it, so who knows how they will try to maximise returns on this?

But it will be a key for tetanus.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=16501849
Quote:
Autophagy delivers cytoplasmic constituents for lysosomal degradation. Recent studies have demonstrated that this pathway mediates resistance to pathogens and is targeted for immune evasion by viruses and bacteria. Lysosomal degradation products, including pathogenic determinants, are then surveyed by the adaptive immune system to elicit antigen-specific T cell responses. CD4(+) T helper cells have been shown to recognize nuclear and cytosolic antigens via presentation by major histocompatibility complex (MHC) class II molecules after autophagy. Furthermore, some sources of natural MHC class II ligands display characteristics of autophagy substrates, and autophagosomes fuse with late endosomes, in which MHC class II loading is thought to occur. Although MHC class II antigen processing via autophagy has so far mainly been described for professional antigen-presenting cells like B cells, macrophages, and dendritic cells, it might be even more important for cells with less endocytic potential, like epithelial cells, when these express MHC class II at sites of inflammation. Therefore, autophagy might contribute to immune surveillance of intracellular pathogens via MHC class II presentation of intracellular pathogen-derived peptides.

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#22 of 32 Old 12-31-2006, 11:51 PM - Thread Starter
 
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#23 of 32 Old 01-01-2007, 01:09 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara View Post
But kidspiration, they will say that natural immunity only applies to kids that live in hovels, eat dirt and don't have savlon obsessed parents.

Except if that is so, why did they do that huge push through mexico, south America and the phillipines over a decade ago, vaccinating all those women with tetanus vaccine.

Why only the women too?

That was the "smoke" that wouldn't go away, which was raised by a roman catholic priest in Mexico, who commented on internet that many of the vaccinated women were miscarrying or could no longer conceive. The vaccine was tested by three groups who found that it had hcg in it.

Then the women in other countries started to have the same thing happen, and the smoke became fire, and the WHO got involved and the official answer was "What rot. It's just conspiracist theorists abounding yet again."

But as the priest, and all the other people said at the time, if their focus was on tetanus protection for all why were only woman targetted? Dont' men get tetanus too?

The story remain unsatisfactorily unresolved.
you have me intrigued...... have any links on this?
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#24 of 32 Old 01-01-2007, 01:14 AM
 
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btw, am I the only one who copys and pastes every links info that MT posts incase it suddenly disappears from the net?
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#25 of 32 Old 01-01-2007, 01:40 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara View Post
But my youngest had a hobby of eating earwigs which I always found the abdomens of in his nappy, so maybe he's okay
ok thats gross......but I probably did the same thing, my mum would always wonder where I was and find me eating dirt in the garden.
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#26 of 32 Old 01-01-2007, 01:55 AM
 
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#27 of 32 Old 01-01-2007, 05:54 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by romans_mum View Post
you have me intrigued...... have any links on this?
Only in fruitloop land. Put this Mexico Tetanus vaccine had Hcg in it miscarriages into google and see what you find.

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#28 of 32 Old 01-01-2007, 05:56 AM - Thread Starter
 
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This one here http://www.geocities.com/titus2birthing/VacProLife.html says
Quote:
A recent study conducted by the Philippine Medical Association on behalf of the Philippine Department of Health revealed that almost 20 percent of the tetanus vaccine sampled positive for the hormone human chorionic gonadotrophin (hCG), according to Human Life International. Vaccines containing the hormone immunize women not only against tetanus but also against pregnancy by inducing the body's immune system to attack the hormone needed to bring an unborn child to term."
Etc. read the rest

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#29 of 32 Old 01-01-2007, 06:04 AM - Thread Starter
 
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http://www.abortionfacts.com/reardon..._and_ru486.asp

Quote:
The same BBC documentary reported that women in the Philippines and Mexico have also been used as guinea pigs for a new experimental pregnancy vaccine. The HCG vaccine makes a woman's body reject new pregnancies. …, it has been administered, without the consent or knowledge of patients, as a "piggyback" vaccine in a series of tetanus vaccine programs.
…But when women who had recently received the "tetanus vaccine" began having an inordinate number of miscarriages, this bureaucratic curiosity turned into charges of conspiracy. Subsequent lab tests of the tetanus vaccine confirmed it had indeed been laced with an HCG vaccine.

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#30 of 32 Old 01-01-2007, 06:07 AM - Thread Starter
 
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By the way, the 1995 BBC Horizon program was called "The Human Laboratory", and was never shown in USA


WHO denied everything and claimed that the amounts of HCG in the vaccines were insignificant.

Ironic, then, that the very vaccine that medical studies had been talking about before the actual event, were the ones used in Mexico and phillipines....

“I want to sell drugs to everyone. I want to sell drugs to healthy people. I want drugs to sell like chewing gum.” former Merck CEO, Henry Gadsden

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